Hydraulic Clutch Not Engaging

[cv2065]

Getting ready for the first go kart and need to iron out this clutch engagement. Forte hydraulic clutch with slave installed. Tilton MC with 13/16" bore (model 75-812U).

I've bled the clutch and have some good pressure on the pedal. Hard to press by hand. I'm wondering if I have enough travel to disengage the clutch. I have about 50% thread engagement into the clevis and the bend in the pedal shaft stops about 1/2" from the footbox wall. I can put the car in gear without the clutch and the rear wheels engage. Below are a couple of pics of the clevis engagement and pedal placement. I also added a video of the slave movement. Not sure if anyone can tell by this but thoughts?

https://youtu.be/oqaZ2gtbNy8

https://hosting.photobucket.com/239a0216-6f9e-4cc9-a0be-2ec53fb3e15d/9e0e33c9-828d-4829-b6d2-e1653abaa21b.png?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds (https://hosting.photobucket.com/239a0216-6f9e-4cc9-a0be-2ec53fb3e15d/9e0e33c9-828d-4829-b6d2-e1653abaa21b.png?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds)

https://hosting.photobucket.com/239a0216-6f9e-4cc9-a0be-2ec53fb3e15d/d5848695-5850-4181-ab74-213929c89659.jpg?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds (https://hosting.photobucket.com/239a0216-6f9e-4cc9-a0be-2ec53fb3e15d/d5848695-5850-4181-ab74-213929c89659.jpg?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds)

[Mike.Bray]

This is easy to check and adjust. With the car in gear, reach down through the tunnel and try turning the driveshaft while depressing the clutch pedal. You will find your point of engagement, mine was almost like flipping a switch. Now you can adjust to get the engagement where you want it.

Hope this makes sense.

[cv2065]

This is easy to check and adjust. With the car in gear, reach down through the tunnel and try turning the driveshaft while depressing the clutch pedal. You will find your point of engagement, mine was almost like flipping a switch. Now you can adjust to get the engagement where you want it.

Hope this makes sense.

Thanks Mike! I'm assuming with the car off correct? I put it in gear and pushed the clutch to the floor and cannot move the driveshaft. When the car is on, the wheels move on their own when put into gear manually (not with clutch).

[Mike.Bray]

Thanks Mike! I'm assuming with the car off correct? I put it in gear and pushed the clutch to the floor and cannot move the driveshaft. When the car is on, the wheels move on their own when put into gear manually (not with clutch).

Yes, with the car off and the rear wheels off the ground so that when you're in gear and trying to rotate the driveshaft you can't as the engine is connected (unless you're really freaking strong):) Push the clutch pedal in until the clutch disengages and you can turn the driveshaft.

[cv2065]

Yes, with the car off and the rear wheels off the ground so that when you're in gear and trying to rotate the driveshaft you can't as the engine is connected (unless you're really freaking strong):) Push the clutch pedal in until the clutch disengages and you can turn the driveshaft.

LOL....Yep, I have the car on stands and cannot move the driveshaft at any point when the clutch is fully depressed. Although I do see the slave moving the fork as in the video. The slave should be adjusted correctly when I installed with roughly 1/8" play and the slave starts moving when the clutch pedal is depressed maybe 1/2". I can adjust the pedal towards the seat for more throw. I wouldn't think I'd need a larger MC, but always an option I suppose. I'm assuming some of the slack in the throw will be removed once on the ground as well.

[rich grsc]

The throwout bearing should be touching the clutch fingers. What too much free play at the throwout bearing

[cv2065]

The throwout bearing should be touching the clutch fingers. What too much free play at the throwout bearing

Thanks Rich. There was just a tiny bit of free play at rest. 1/16 to 1/8 of an inch. I thought you wanted a tiny bit?

[Railroad]

Where the push rod is attached to the clutch fork can increase, travel and resistance. The push rod is round on the end and can provide some angle.
I moved mine to reduce effort. You might be able to gain some travel.
I put the Forte kit on my roadster and got some bad info on the pivot bolt.
I had to separate the bell housing, reach inside and swap out the pivot bolt for a shorter one.
That fixed my issue.
Good luck,

[cv2065]

I did not see a pic of the slave cyl, clutch fork or slave push rod.
If you can post that, the problem may be visible.
Where the push rod is attached to the clutch fork can increase, travel and resistance.
I put the Forte kit on my roadster and got some bad info on the pivot bolt.
I had to separate the bell housing, reach inside and swap out the pivot bolt for a longer one.
That fixed my issue.
Good luck,

I did post a video of those 3 working through a couple of actuations if that helps. Here are a couple of pics from top and bottom of the assembly.

I did increase the throw of the clutch pedal towards the seat and didn't get any different result. I also checked the TOB endplay again and there is very little (~ 1/16" or so). Outside of the clutch pressure on the pedal and seeing the clutch fork moving visually by the slave, it's almost like I don't have a clutch attached.

https://hosting.photobucket.com/239a0216-6f9e-4cc9-a0be-2ec53fb3e15d/67a25e5c-e4d4-47e8-bdd6-43502b29a941.jpg?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds (https://hosting.photobucket.com/239a0216-6f9e-4cc9-a0be-2ec53fb3e15d/67a25e5c-e4d4-47e8-bdd6-43502b29a941.jpg?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds)

https://hosting.photobucket.com/239a0216-6f9e-4cc9-a0be-2ec53fb3e15d/2fe049a5-de4a-442e-820f-9843cae176be.jpg?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds (https://hosting.photobucket.com/239a0216-6f9e-4cc9-a0be-2ec53fb3e15d/2fe049a5-de4a-442e-820f-9843cae176be.jpg?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds)

I did increase the throw of the clutch pedal towards the seat and didn't get any different result. I also checked the TOB endplay again and there is very little (< 1/16"). Outside of the clutch pressure and it the clutch fork moving visually, it's almost like I don't have a clutch attached.

[Railroad]

I found the video. It looks good. I also edited and posted another issue I had with the Forte Kit.
Some have put the throwout bearing on the clutch fork incorrectly,
causing some similar problems.

[cv2065]

I found the video. It looks good. I also edited and posted another issue I had with the Forte Kit.
Some have put the throwout bearing on the clutch fork incorrectly,
causing some similar problems.

Thanks RR! I'm a bit of a nut when it comes to ensuring that stuff is right. I made sure that the forks were under the TOB flange and not over it, as well as pointing it in the right direction. Nothing is impossible of course but I 'think' I'm good there. I took a couple of pics during installation.

https://hosting.photobucket.com/239a0216-6f9e-4cc9-a0be-2ec53fb3e15d/9952529f-ad2e-49df-94a6-eb09a6210224.jpg?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds (https://hosting.photobucket.com/239a0216-6f9e-4cc9-a0be-2ec53fb3e15d/9952529f-ad2e-49df-94a6-eb09a6210224.jpg?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds)

I just took this one tonight looking into the bellhousing hole. Looks like the TOB is secured correctly but does that look like the TOB is touching the clutch fingers? I can't really tell. Maybe I can get a picture of it depressed.

https://hosting.photobucket.com/239a0216-6f9e-4cc9-a0be-2ec53fb3e15d/18ea9b01-9bc8-4336-aafc-24146d6fc948.jpg?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds (https://hosting.photobucket.com/239a0216-6f9e-4cc9-a0be-2ec53fb3e15d/18ea9b01-9bc8-4336-aafc-24146d6fc948.jpg?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds)

[cv2065]

Confirmed visual that the TOB is indeed touching the clutch fingers. I had my wife push the clutch in while I was under there and the fork was moving and pushing in on the diaphragm but is not going in very far. Maybe 1/4" or so? Hence the lack of engagement. I'm just not getting enough throw.

[Railroad]

Just by the pic, it looks like you have more gap than you think.
I would take up all of the slack, see how it releases and start, backing off.
Be careful, I have see some pics of the slave cyl piston jumping out of the cyl.
Do you have any pics of which way the clutch friction plate is facing?

[Railroad]

Do you know the bore size on the slave cylinder. If the ratio compared to the master cyl is not right, you can get too short of travel.
I am just throwing out possibilites,,,,
Just another issue, I had with the kit I got.

[Railroad]

Although your work looks too clean for this, but I have seen too much loctite put on the pressure plate bolts.
It runs onto the disk and sets up.
It is not hard to break the plate loose by prying it off the flywheel, but it will not break loose by rotation.

[cv2065]

Just by the pic, it looks like you have more gap than you think.
I would take up all of the slack, see how it releases and start, backing off.
Be careful, I have see some pics of the slave cyl piston jumping out of the cyl.
Do you have any pics of which way the clutch friction plate is facing?

Thanks again. I appreciate your feedback. Yes, I questioned the pic myself and went and got a visual on it. Definitely right on the fingers. Thought I had a clutch disc picture but I assembled it flush to the flywheel with springs out.

Forte provides a Wilwood 13/16" MC for the setup. I swapped out for the Tilton, which is also 13/16". Could there be a difference between the two? I know the Tilton is a bigger unit than the Wilwood. Could that impact the pressure pushed to the slave? I wouldn't think so, but not sure.

I've heard of others having to break the plate loose from the flywheel. How would you do that?

[Gene Gage Jr]

I had a similar problem with the FF supplied clutch master cylinder (3/4" bore). I went to a 1" bore and problem solved.

[Railroad]

To check whether the disk is stuck, you will need access to the edge of the disk and the clutch pressure plate released, ie clutch depressed.
I do not think the Quicktime bell housing has an inspection plate and do not think the starter window will be enough of an opening.
The Tilton should be correctly sized as marked.
Gene makes a valid point on the size of the cylinders.
Some of the builders with a better memory can give you the bore size ratio you need.
Keep kicking!

[cv2065]

I had a similar problem with the FF supplied clutch master cylinder (3/4" bore). I went to a 1" bore and problem solved.

Thanks Gene. That's what it feels like is that this MC is not pushing enough fluid to engage the clutch. Not sure what the difference between a 13/16" and 1" would be in terms of actuation.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Thanks Gene. That's what it feels like is that this MC is not pushing enough fluid to engage the clutch. Not sure what the difference between a 13/16" and 1" would be in terms of actuation.

It would be huge...a 1" cylinder will move 53% more fluid than 13/16" for the same stroke. It would also tremendously increase the effort required at the pedal. Taking the hydraulics out of the equation, can you get a pry bar on the clutch fork and move it enough to disengage the clutch? If not then you're dealing with a mechanical issue or a disc that is stuck to the flywheel (which isn't especially rare with an organic compound disc that has been under pressure to the flywheel in a high humidity environment)

Jeff

[cv2065]

It would be huge...a 1" cylinder will move 53% more fluid than 13/16" for the same stroke. It would also tremendously increase the effort required at the pedal. Taking the hydraulics out of the equation, can you get a pry bar on the clutch fork and move it enough to disengage the clutch? If not then you're dealing with a mechanical issue or a disc that is stuck to the flywheel (which isn't especially rare with an organic compound disc that has been under pressure to the flywheel in a high humidity environment)

Jeff

Thanks Jeff. I’ll see if I can get a bar on the clutch fork tomorrow. When I was setting it all up, I did pull the clutch fork back when I was inserting the input shaft into the TOB and it went in very smoothly. If the wheels spin when in gear, does that confirm that the clutch disc is free and clear?

[BornWestUSA]

Make sure the clutch slave piston is retracting fully into the slave cylinder, this is step one. that slave and master combo should work perfectly, it's the same as mine.

to my eye the clutch pedal is too low not allowing full stroke of the master cylinder, and not moving enough fluid to fully release the clutch.

Once you verify the slave cylinder piston is retracting fully (you may have to open the bleeder and push the piston in), set the slave/release arm free play to less than 1/8" (no "pressure" on the diaphragm when your foot is not on the clutch pedal) then measure how much the clutch arm moves at the point that the clutch slave connects with a full foot pedal stroke on the master cylinder.

You should have over 1" of travel with that set up, maybe 1.2". if you have less than 3/4" of slave travel, the clutch will not disengage or allow the car to "coast".

adjust the clutch pedal higher to increase the travel at the slave cylinder to release the clutch as necessary.

[Wizbangdoodle]

I put a ratchet strap on the clutch fork and pulled it forward until it disengaged (I could turn the driveshaft). I marked this point on the bellhousing. Then I marked where the fork was at rest. The Forte slave has about 1.25" of travel, so I adjusted the slave rod until it was about 1.25" behind the mark where the clutch disengages. Hope that makes sense and helps. Just went through this myself.

I also agree with BornWest, the clutch pedal is too low. Adjust it up a little at a time.

[cv2065]

I got a ratchet strap on it this morning and was able to disengage the clutch where the wheels would manually spin in first gear. I felt it as it happened as the ratchet strap got a little easier to move. I marked the resting point of the fork on the bellhousing as zero then the point where it disengaged, about 1 - 1/8" past rest. If the Forte slave has about 1.25" of travel, you'd think it would have disengaged at that point? However, I don't recall seeing the fork move this much when watching it as my wife pressed on the clutch.

Also, I remember the wheels turning in first even without the clutch depressed, which means that the clutch wasn't fully disengaged?:confused:

[BornWestUSA]

I got a ratchet strap on it this morning and was able to disengage the clutch where the wheels would manually spin in first gear. I felt it as it happened as the ratchet strap got a little easier to move. I marked the resting point of the fork on the bellhousing as zero then the point where it disengaged, about 1 - 1/8" past rest. If the Forte slave has about 1.25" of travel, you'd think it would have disengaged at that point? However, I don't recall seeing the fork move this much when watching it as my wife pressed on the clutch.

Also, I remember the wheels turning in first even without the clutch depressed, which means that the clutch wasn't fully disengaged?:confused:

If you are not getting the travel you need (measure the actual travel of slave when depressing clutch pedal) ......

Then you need to follow the steps in my post above. I've been deep down this rabbit hole with my car.

Your combination has the "ability" to disengage the clutch, IF it is set up / adjusted correctly.

[cv2065]

you need to follow the steps in my post. I've been deep down this rabbit hole with my car.

your set up has the "ability" to disengage the clutch, IF it is set up / adjusted correctly.

Going to work on that this afternoon and will report back,

[Railroad]

Pull the rubber boot on the slave cyl back and see if the piston is traveling the full length.
This visual will give an idea of how much more travel is possible.
good luck,

[edwardb]

You should be able to disengage clutch with 1-1/8" of travel. With the previous CNC slave cylinders (the several I've done) the max travel was 1-1/4". More than that and the piston would come out. Didn't happen to me but to a friend. If not, maybe the geometry isn't quite right with the pivot height.

[cv2065]

Quick update. I took it all apart and started over. It 'seemed' like everything was correct as when I measured the slave cylinder rod in the bore at rest and full extension, I had enough room in the slave cylinder to cover the throw to disengagement. However, once reassembled, I had to add in a little more play in the rod to get the 1/8 to 3/16" gap at the TOB.

I kept the boot off and watched the travel again and it still wasn't going far enough to disengage. I then adjusted the MC rod and moved the pedal about an inch towards the driver's seat. Actuated again and the slave rod travel was just about perfect with the slave cylinder front edge right inside the edge of the cylinder opening. I could see about half of the bullet on the end of the rod and I could feel the clutch disengage. Started up the car and works great. Still have to try with the wheels on the ground, but I think we can close the books on this one. Thanks for everyone's help.

The only thing that I don't like is how far my clutch pedal is towards the driver's seat. Not terrible but a lot more than my last ride. What would remedy this? A larger MC?

[rich grsc]

I had to add in a little more play in the rod to get the 1/8 to 3/16" gap at the TOB.

This is incorrect, that is TOO much gap. Less than 1/8", designed by Ford to actually just touch the fingers

[cv2065]

I had to add in a little more play in the rod to get the 1/8 to 3/16" gap at the TOB.

This is incorrect, that is TOO much gap. Less than 1/8", designed by Ford to actually just touch the fingers

Seems to be a debatable topic depending on the source. Forte has 3/16” on his website. I know others have said 1/16” to 1/8”. I went to roughly the middle.

[Mike.Bray]

I have a HTB (which I love) and I can tell you it does not retract away from the fingers.

BTW, my pedal is pretty far down before the clutch disengages so sounds like you're in the ballpark.

[JMD]

I'm glad you got it working! I have the same setup from Forte and I think it's great. I did have to adjust the pedal further forward than I originally wanted...it's about 1" closer to the driver than the brake pedal. I had to do that to get enough stroke to disengage the clutch, which it seems like was your issue as well. I wanted the pedal in line with the brake pedal, but after using it a few times it really doesn't bother me at all. I think it's the perfect amount of effort with that size MC. I could shorten it with a bigger MC, but I love the clutch feel. Firm but not strenuous. Good luck!

[Blitzboy54]

Confirmed visual that the TOB is indeed touching the clutch fingers. I had my wife push the clutch in while I was under there and the fork was moving and pushing in on the diaphragm but is not going in very far. Maybe 1/4" or so? Hence the lack of engagement. I'm just not getting enough throw.

The slave cylinder is notorious for not getting all the air out. It requires some finesse. I couldn't get it cleanly bled until I used a vacuum bleader on it. The fork should mimick the move of the pedal if I just hand tough my clutch the slave responds in kind. It will act like it's physically connected. If there is still an air bubble it won't move as far as it would if it's clean.

I found this video and it helped me. It had me completely compress the piston while bleeding it out


https://youtu.be/uj1dMdYgRK4?si=zbtEFxjx11WgMFrr

[cv2065]

The slave cylinder is notorious for not getting all the air out. It requires some finesse. I couldn't get it cleanly bled until I used a vacuum bleader on it. The fork should mimick the move of the pedal if I just hand tough my clutch the slave responds in kind. It will act like it's physically connected. If there is still an air bubble it won't move as far as it would if it's clean.

I found this video and it helped me. It had me completely compress the piston while bleeding it out


https://youtu.be/uj1dMdYgRK4?si=zbtEFxjx11WgMFrr

Thanks Jessie. That’s the only thing I use these days when bleeding. The $99 one from Harbor Freight is excellent. You do have to re-seat the gasket in the main cap every now and then but I bled the clutch in about a minute. Same with each corner of my brakes.

[tonywy]

Seems to be a debatable topic depending on the source. Forte has 3/16” on his website. I know others have said 1/16” to 1/8”. I went to roughly the middle.

I couldn't figure this out at first either, lots of opinions. I was of the school there should be some free play.Then I read that when used OE by Ford they had an automatic adjuster that keeps the bearing in constant contact. If you back off of the adjustment you could end up hearing a constant chirp, bearing face against the pressure plate fingers. The Ford Motorsport bearing is designed for constant contact.

[cv2065]

I couldn't figure this out at first either, lots of opinions. I was of the school there should be some free play.Then I read that when used OE by Ford they had an automatic adjuster that keeps the bearing in constant contact. If you back off of the adjustment you could end up hearing a constant chirp, bearing face against the pressure plate fingers. The Ford Motorsport bearing is designed for constant contact.

I'd read that as well on my last build. At the time, Forte said that if you don't have a 3/16" gap, as the clutch fingers settle you could smoke your clutch. I think most on the forum has added some kind of gap with no issues.

[Wizbangdoodle]

Congrats, well done cv. It sounds like you went down the same road as I did. Just like Railroad and others have said, you have to get enough stroke out of the master cylinder in order to move the slave enough.

It's all a balancing act really. You could go larger master and not need as much pedal travel, but your pedal effort goes up. Too small of master and the slave doesn't travel far enough. Theoretically, if the master and slave are identical bores in diameter and depth and perfectly bled, the slave would move exactly as much as the master does. It all comes down to the volume of fluid that is being moved.

[cv2065]

Congrats, well done cv. It sounds like you went down the same road as I did. Just like Railroad and others have said, you have to get enough stroke out of the master cylinder in order to move the slave enough.

It's all a balancing act really. You could go larger master and not need as much pedal travel, but your pedal effort goes up. Too small of master and the slave doesn't travel far enough. Theoretically, if the master and slave are identical bores in diameter and depth and perfectly bled, the slave would move exactly as much as the master does. It all comes down to the volume of fluid that is being moved.

Thanks! I think I might try a 7/8's MC, the next size up, and see how that lowers the pedal a bit without adding too much more effort to the push.

[ehansen007]

I'm having this same issue. Already pulled the motor once. I've got the forte hyrdo slave and it's got plenty of throw but I'm having to preload it so much and give it so much throw it's got to be off. I can't max it out or adjust it at the pedal or the slave cylinder any more than it is. I'm thinking it's the pivot ball that came with the bellhousing and it's too short. Has anyone else had this problem? The only other thing I can think of is the runout problem. Either way I've got to pull the transmission at least.

[cv2065]

I'm having this same issue. Already pulled the motor once. I've got the forte hyrdo slave and it's got plenty of throw but I'm having to preload it so much and give it so much throw it's got to be off. I can't max it out or adjust it at the pedal or the slave cylinder any more than it is. I'm thinking it's the pivot ball that came with the bellhousing and it's too short. Has anyone else had this problem? The only other thing I can think of is the runout problem. Either way I've got to pull the transmission at least.

Which bellhousing do you have?

[ehansen007]

Standard T5. Not a great pic but it's not a quicktime.
215486

[ehansen007]

Okay I got the transmission out without removing the motor and I can see inside the bellhousing. I thought my pivot ball was going to be too short but to me it looks like there is no room for a longer one as there is only 1/2 inch or so between that and the clutch. At this point I’m still unsure of the problem.

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[cv2065]

Maybe give Mr. Forte a call. He might be able to walk through it with you and get a solution. Send him your pics before hand so he can take a look.

[Mike.Bray]

I'm a simply guy and in my design world I always strive for the simplest solution. The clutch arm/external hydraulic cylinder always seemed like a Rube Goldberg deal to me. Like making three lefts to go right.

Now is the time to bite the bullet and install a Tilton hydraulic bearing and never look back. If you decide to go HTB just go with the best, Tilton as others, especially the McLeod, are prone to failure. FWIW

[cv2065]

I'm a simply guy and in my design world I always strive for the simplest solution. The clutch arm/external hydraulic cylinder always seemed like a Rube Goldberg deal to me. Like making three lefts to go right.

Now is the time to bite the bullet and install a Tilton hydraulic bearing and never look back. If you decide to go HTB just go with the best, Tilton as others, especially the McLeod, are prone to failure. FWIW

I'm a fan of the external slave. Any issues and it's a quick repair. I also can visually see it for adjustments. Had it on my last build with no issues. Many like the internal as well but pulling the trans for a repair is not on my Saturday to do list.;)

[Mike.Bray]

I'm a fan of the external slave. Any issues and it's a quick repair. I also can visually see it for adjustments. Had it on my last build with no issues. Many like the internal as well but pulling the trans for a repair is not on my Saturday to do list.;)

That's why you buy a Tilton my friend.

[cv2065]

That's why you buy a Tilton my friend.

LOL...Touche!

[edwardb]

Piling on... 5th year on my Gen 3 Coupe with the Tilton internal HRB. Flawless. Smooth, easier to push down (I've had an external with the exact setup), doesn't need any adjustments (like disk brakes), cheaper than Forte's setup. Match it with the recommended MC in the Tilton instructions, follow their setup (not hard) and you're done. Basically a winner. I know everyone always says "Take everything apart if it fails..." You mean like right now when you're clutch won't disengage? Also, you do know the clutch is a maintenance item too and it someday will require a teardown? OEM's, like Corvette (and many others) have been using internal HRB's for years. Granted I expect cost is a driver because of the simplicity. But they do go for reliability as well. Already have the Tilton piece in the Aluminator for my Mk5 build.

[Blitzboy54]

Piling on... 5th year on my Gen 3 Coupe with the Tilton internal HRB. Flawless. Smooth, easier to push down (I've had an external with the exact setup), doesn't need any adjustments (like disk brakes), cheaper than Forte's setup. Match it with the recommended MC in the Tilton instructions, follow their setup (not hard) and you're done. Basically a winner. I know everyone always says "Take everything apart if it fails..." You mean like right now when you're clutch won't disengage? Also, you do know the clutch is a maintenance item too and it someday will require a teardown? OEM's, like Corvette (and many others) have been using internal HRB's for years. Granted I expect cost is a driver because of the simplicity. But they do go for reliability as well. Already have the Tilton piece in the Aluminator for my Mk5 build.

I don't have a problem with a hydraulic TOB per se but I purchased the wrong one. The RAM uses shims and is not adjustable. I was worried I wouldn't like the position and the only way to adjust it was take it all back out and add/remove a shim. After that it was just easier to pivot to an external unit.

I wouldn't hesitate to use an internal setup if I had purchased the right one up front.