View Full Version : Help! Axles are still too short...
To continue the saga from the other forum...I thought I would post it hear to see if anyone could help.
http://www.ffcars.com/forums/17-factory-five-roadsters/283978-go-kart-baby-yeah.html
http://www.ffcars.com/forums/17-factory-five-roadsters/284046-custom-half-shafts.html
I decided that maybe I did something wrong, or the half shafts I received were faulty. I ordered 2 brand new axle assemblies from Factory Five, Pin Drive Width. I then proceeded to thread my control arm rod ends in 4 threads from where they were, netting about .25" shorter track width per side. This is what I have now...and I am betting that I'll blow them out as well. Look at how far out the bearing is from the housing! What the hell? Am I assembling this wrong? As you can see my alignment is pretty close. At least it was before I threaded the rod ends in further.
Camber is fine...if anything it has too much.
http://i573.photobucket.com/albums/ss172/donandcarlynn/2012%20February/DSC_5798.jpg
Axle is level...
http://i573.photobucket.com/albums/ss172/donandcarlynn/2012%20February/DSC_5797.jpg
Rear Rod End...
http://i573.photobucket.com/albums/ss172/donandcarlynn/2012%20February/DSC_5799.jpg
http://i573.photobucket.com/albums/ss172/donandcarlynn/2012%20February/DSC_5803.jpg
Front Rod End...
http://i573.photobucket.com/albums/ss172/donandcarlynn/2012%20February/DSC_5800.jpg
http://i573.photobucket.com/albums/ss172/donandcarlynn/2012%20February/DSC_5802.jpg
Dang bearing is hanging WAYYYY Out! I already blew out the last axles because of this! The red line is roughly where edge of the housing is behind the boot. This cannot be right!!! Is it?
http://i573.photobucket.com/albums/ss172/donandcarlynn/2012%20February/DSC_5811_2.jpg
So, I suspect the pumpkin is not centered in the chassis. I took a measurement and found that the distance the axle has to span is 1/2" longer on the driver's side than on the passenger side. This would explain why I only blew out the driver's side axle when I go-karted it.
Anyone else experience this inequality with the IRS widths?
Factory Five? Is this correct or did I receive a defective frame/suspension?
Guys at Factory Five? Anyone?
Jason Lavigne
02-13-2012, 02:12 PM
Hi Don,
Just send me those photos & measurements we discussed, and I'll compare to the car we have here. It's got to be either the CV axle itself or the distance between the pumpking and the hub - let's narrow down where the difference is, and we'll figure it out.
thanks,
Jason @ FFR
65 Cobra Dude
02-13-2012, 02:21 PM
Don,
Any chance you have pin drive width axle shafts and non-pin drive width upper/lower rear control arms?
Henry
Cobra Dude, I wish it were that easy.
Jason, like I sent in email, here are some pics and measurements of the axle as installed. The axle assembly as delivered measured 27 1/4" fully compressed.
The actual length of the axle from the inner housing edge to the outer housing edge where it is beveled down into the hub looks like 17 7/16" to me. This is with the axle at ride height (level).
http://i573.photobucket.com/albums/ss172/donandcarlynn/2012%20February/DSC_5835.jpg
http://i573.photobucket.com/albums/ss172/donandcarlynn/2012%20February/DSC_5834.jpg
http://i573.photobucket.com/albums/ss172/donandcarlynn/2012%20February/DSC_5833.jpg
first time builder
02-17-2012, 01:57 PM
Any resolution to the problem yet ?
Kenny
From what I have gathered over here...see thread, I would say that the frame mounts for the diff are shifted to the PS of the car and extending the DS axle enough to cause the failure. Right now I am waiting to see what FFR can do for me. I am hoping that they will come through and help me get some longer axles made up.
http://www.ffcars.com/forums/17-factory-five-roadsters/286308-help-axles-still-too-short.html
first time builder
02-18-2012, 09:57 AM
Thanks Don , and good luck .
Kenny
Jason,
Any word on what to do about this? All I need are longer axles for the problem to go away!
Pretty quiet around here...I still cannot drive my car the way it is...Jason, Dave, anybody?
CraigS
03-06-2012, 06:15 PM
What the heck, is FFR sitting on this? The car isn't driveable and spring is here. Come on FFR!!!
The only way I am going to be driving any time soon is if I throw more of my own money at it. In the end, I think that is what I'll be doing regardless of what FFR determines. There is just no way on earth that this can be solved given these suspension parts, which all came from FFR. I will have to go off the reservation to get this fixed anyway. Now it just comes down to who will pay for it.
So far I have spent $247 purchasing new axles from FFR and I am poised to spend another $250 to send one off to DriveshaftShop to be taken apart and assembled with a custom length 16" halfshaft. Total...~$500. Frustration level...7.5.
oldguy668
03-08-2012, 03:49 PM
I'm going to move this to the Tech forum. Brian Z checks there frequently during the day.
Brian Z
03-08-2012, 04:40 PM
I did already see this thread. I will have to check with Jason and see what he has found out about this situation.
Checking into it...
rich grsc
03-08-2012, 05:01 PM
Don, take apart the axle and post some pictures, PLEASE.
Don, can you pull the axle out and have a look at how its assembled?
Ok Rich, I will see about taking apart the brand new ones from FFR so you can see. Sorry for making you wait. I just did not want to adulterate them if I was going to be sending them back to FFR. The older pin drive half shafts I recieved were like this...the c clip was obliterated and the bearing was pushed back and stuck on the axle. I had to pull it off with a gear puller. The new ones, I have not looked at yet.
http://i1190.photobucket.com/albums/z458/john55210/IMG_0342.jpg
My old standard width half shafts had a built in stop on the inside so there was no need for a clip behind the bearing, and FFR did not have an inside clip because of this...IMHO that was a much better design. Even Kirkham Motorsports uses this design element:
http://i573.photobucket.com/albums/ss172/donandcarlynn/2012%20March/Kirkhamhalfshaft.jpg
Not sure what my new pin drive half shafts look like as one is shipped off to Driveshaft Shop and the other is heading back to FFR for a refund.
I did already see this thread. I will have to check with Jason and see what he has found out about this situation.
Checking into it...
I could definitely use some more help here. Thanks.
Hey, Brian or Jason...any updates?
Updates? Frustration level is rising from 7.5 to 8.0.
So far, this is where I am at:
Verified via my rear alignment that my brake disks are perfectly centered to the 4" rails.
Verified that my axles, being fully installed into the differential and fully seated into the hubs, are ~.500" different in length. Being longer in the driver side.
Verified that the driveline flange of the differential is mounted ~.688" off center toward the passenger side.
Verified that the differential cover tab is mounted in the frame ~.907" toward the passenger side.
I had given FFR the benefit of the doubt and spent $247 of my own money to replace my first set of axles with a new set from FFR.
I would like to send the one off to DriveshaftShop to have a longer half shaft made and assembled. The other I would like to return to FFR for a refund (it is still sealed in a bag), but FFR has not responded to that request for a refund, nor offered to cover the total cost of the DriveshaftShop to make me a longer axle (~$250 shipped)
I am dying to get this problem resolved.
Friendly bump to let FFR know I am still here. ;)
rich grsc
03-16-2012, 09:54 PM
"the older pin drive half shafts I recieved were like this...the c clip was obliterated and the bearing was pushed back and stuck on the axle. I had to pull it off with a gear puller"
If the bearing was all the way back, stuck on the axle, then of course the bearing would be too short, and slip out of the housing.
If the bearing was all the way back, stuck on the axle, then of course the bearing would be too short, and slip out of the housing.
Yeah, I realize that. Now consider the 'new' axle that I just installed, with the bearing still sticking way out of the housing, would you drive it like that? I know that I blew out the last axle and it looked just like this as well...hmm, what are the odds that I may get lucky and it will be fine?
What was the definition again for 'Insanity', oh yeah...doing the same thing over and over, each time expecting a different result.
http://i573.photobucket.com/albums/ss172/donandcarlynn/2012%20February/DSC_5811_2.jpg
Gopher
03-17-2012, 04:37 PM
Don I feel your pain .The drive shaft that came with the kit was about 2 inch to short .No problem called FF said no problem will send you the one that's about 1 1/2 longer just send yours back. Of course that's on my dime. Week goes by new one shows up that one is 1 1/2 too long you can't even install it .Now I find out there's three drive shaft lengths .I made the mistake and assumed it was the length that was listed on inventory sheet and did not check before I shipped it back . So now I'm just going to take this on and have it shortened to the length I want.
Jason Lavigne
03-19-2012, 12:03 PM
Hi Gopher - it sounds like you're talking about a driveshaft - can you confirm? If you're referring to a CV axle, please drop me an email at jason.lavigne@factoryfive.com - I'd like to learn more about your configuration.
Don - just emailed you a bunch of photos and measurements from our Pin Drive IRS Mk3. I think they should be helpful.
thanks,
Jason @ FFR
Thanks Jason. I'll review and take matching measurements on my car.
Gopher
03-19-2012, 01:44 PM
Hi Gopher - it sounds like you're talking about a driveshaft - can you confirm? If you're referring to a CV axle, please drop me an email at jason.lavigne@factoryfive.com - I'd like to learn more about your configuration.
Don - just emailed you a bunch of photos and measurements from our Pin Drive IRS Mk3. I think they should be helpful.
thanks,
Jason @ FFR
Yes Jason its a drive shaft .
Well, I have some good measurements in. Jason at FFR was nice enough to measure Dave Smith's car for me so that we an compare it to my car. Here are the results...
Dave's car, DS 25.25” rear diff mount tab to inner disk face
http://i573.photobucket.com/albums/ss172/donandcarlynn/2012%20March/LHBrackettoRotor.jpg
Dave's car, PS 24” rear diff mount tab to inner disk face
http://i573.photobucket.com/albums/ss172/donandcarlynn/2012%20March/RHBrackettoRotor.jpg
Dave's car, DS 18.125" inner axle housing to spindle
http://i573.photobucket.com/albums/ss172/donandcarlynn/2012%20March/LHAxleShaftMeasurement.jpg
Dave's car, PS 18" inner axle housing to spindle
http://i573.photobucket.com/albums/ss172/donandcarlynn/2012%20March/RHAxleShaftMeasurement.jpg
My car, DS 25.125” rear diff mount tab to inner disk face
http://i573.photobucket.com/albums/ss172/donandcarlynn/2012%20March/DSC_6015.jpg
My car, PS 23.3125” rear diff mount tab to inner disk face
http://i573.photobucket.com/albums/ss172/donandcarlynn/2012%20March/DSC_6017.jpg
Sorry didn't take pics of the inner axle housing to spindle measurements, but I did measure them at full droop just like Jason did and noted the measurements below.
FWIW, my car IS aligned fairly well. I aligned it to the 4" tube using the string method and took great care to make sure it was spot on.
So after looking at my car again...and back at Jason's measurements I think we have pretty good confirmation that my differential is mounted ~.25 too far to the PS making the span the axle has to cover ~.25" shorter on the PS and ~.25 longer on the DS. This equals the ~.5" total difference in the DS and PS axle length requirements. Please see the following analysis...note that Jason's measurements on the rear diff mount tab to inner disk face are slightly larger, likely due to his measurements taken at full droop slightly on an angle, while mine were taken level at ride height.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _________
My car (measurements taken at ride height, same as the photos I sent earlier. I measured again at full droop, but the difference between the two is the same.)
DS 25.125” rear diff mount tab to inner disk face
PS 23.3125” rear diff mount tab to inner disk face
Difference…1.8125”, divided by 2 equals .906” offset to PS.
Dave’s car (measurements taken at full droop)
DS 25.25” rear diff mount tab to inner disk face
PS 24” rear diff mount tab to inner disk face
Difference…1.25”, divided by 2 equals .625” offset to PS.
Now this shows that .906" minus .625" equals .281". This is roughly the .25" that I have been noting for a few weeks that my diff was toward the PS. Let's also look at the other measurements that we took with regard to how far the axle reaches on each side...
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _________
My car (measurements taken at full droop, I took these today)
DS 18.375" inner axle housing to spindle
PS 17.6875" inner axle housing to spindle
Difference .6875”, divided by 2 equals .343” offset to PS.
Dave’s car (measurements taken at full droop)
DS 18.125" inner axle housing to spindle
PS 18" inner axle housing to spindle
Difference .125”, divided by 2 equals .0625” offset to PS.
Now this shows that .343" minus .0625" equals .281". This is roughly the .25" that I have been noting for a few weeks that my diff was toward the PS.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _________
I don't know what more to say, other than our specs are matching up very nicely to tell the same old story. The problem is that my control arms are all the way in on the DS and I cannot adjust it anymore to help the situation.
Cheers,
Don
bump...Whew! Almost forgot to let FFR know I am still here. :)
oldguy668
03-28-2012, 06:56 PM
Don, I think you should call FFR and ask for Dave Smith. It's unacceptable that his staff is basically ignoring you and I'm sure he'd like to know what the heck is going on.
Don, I think you should call FFR and ask for Dave Smith. It's unacceptable that his staff is basically ignoring you and I'm sure he'd like to know what the heck is going on.
I emailed Dave for the first time 2 days ago. No response yet. I'll try his cell next.
Dave Smith
03-29-2012, 01:30 PM
Don - I can promise you that no one is ignoring you. We met this morning and I asked Jim to investigate this fully. I'm sure he'll be contacting you.
Thanks Dave. Jason has been helping out, no doubt.
oldguy668
03-30-2012, 03:10 PM
Here's the old guy with his foot in his mouth again. I should not have used the word "ignore". There were 37 alternative words or phrases that would have done the trick. The problem is I should not be on the forum right after speaking to a particularly irritating client. The dog is lucky she didn't walk by just then or I'd be getting arrested for animal cruelty.
This one's for you Rich! I pulled the boot back. The first 2 pics are at full droop...the last pic is at ride height.
DS at full droop with the rear LCA rod end showing only 1 thread past the jam nut. Imagine what it would have looked like on my first go kart ride when I had 5 threads showing. No wonder my first axle exploded! Now imagine that my diff was centered properly, this would only put the diff ~.25" closer. I am not the type of guy to say the sky is falling, but this is dangerous enough that I would HIGHLY suggest the pin drive guys pull their boots back to see how far their bearings are hanging out. This could result in a tragic failure at speed.
http://i573.photobucket.com/albums/ss172/donandcarlynn/2012%20March/DSC_6202.jpg
http://i573.photobucket.com/albums/ss172/donandcarlynn/2012%20March/DSC_6205.jpg
This pic is the same with the wheel raised to ride height.
http://i573.photobucket.com/albums/ss172/donandcarlynn/2012%20March/DSC_6206.jpg
michael everson
03-31-2012, 04:18 PM
Wow. Thats scary. Gotta go look at the one I have here.
Wow. Thats scary. Gotta go look at the one I have here.
Yep, exploded on 12-30-2011 during my first go kart ride. Been trying to convince FFR that this is a problem ever since. All brand new parts...complete kit.
Well, I am officially into my 4th month of dealing with this issue. Hoping to get back on the road soon.
Got a very nice email from Jim. I just wanted to publicly say thank you. I will soon be back rolling with his help.
We did not yet pin point exactly why my setup is so widely off as there are many factors involved. I can say that FFR is going to get me taken care of and is verifying their geometry to ensure that this is an isolated issue and not affecting other kits. Many thanks to Jason, Jim, Dave and all at FFR who have helped along the way!
Cheers,
Don
Gopher
04-02-2012, 05:33 PM
Has Factory Five offered to send someone out to look at your car.Dave offered to send someone out to look at my frame that was bent .It seems that 4 months should have been enough time to figure out how to fix the problem . If longer half shafts will fix your problem I'll donate a 100.00 to the fix.
Has Factory Five offered to send someone out to look at your car.Dave offered to send someone out to look at my frame that was bent .It seems that 4 months should have been enough time to figure out how to fix the problem . If longer half shafts will fix your problem I'll donate a 100.00 to the fix.
Wow Bill, you are too kind. No worries though. The way Jim was going to take care of me will be just right.
Now I just need to fix my camshaft issue.
Don, what was the solution? Did you determine the root cause?
I have a complete kit Mark IV with IRS (pin drive width) that I will start building soon and you have me second guessing the axles.
Olli
I feel pretty confident that my differential is mounted .281" too far to the PS. Not sure if any quality control issues exist with the LCA mounting points or arms lengths. At the end of the day you should just verify that your bearings are in all the way by sticking your thumb against it to feel where it is. I have seen a couple of pin drive guy's cars and it looks like my situation is not the norm, but rather an outlier.
I am still waiting for Jim to follow through with me. So I am crossing my fingers that I will have a happy ending.