351w timing cover/oil pain install

[efnfast]

408w w/ a Champ oil pan. Had a small leak at the timing cover so I am replacing the timing cover gasket and decided to drop the oil pan since the gasket looked like it's seen better days. Glad i did because I found a crapload of RTV stuck to the pickup tube screen that's been chilling there for 20yrs.

Some questions for re-install:

1 - Do you install the timing cover gasket (paper) dry, or give it a light smear of RTV, or a light smear of non-hardening gasket maker like Permatex #2? It seems the majority of youtube videos use rtv, but that seems like it would be miserable to remove down the road, plus I'm pretty sure RTV says not to use with paper gaskets (whereas Permatex #2 is compatible with it I believe)

2 - I found a 4 piece gasket on my Champ oil pan. It has solid rails, so can I replace the 4 piece gasket with a 1 piece gasket? I get confusing information here because some sites say as long as the pan rail is flat (i.e., not grooved) you can use the 1-piece. But Canton's website says their 1-piece and 4-piece gaskets are not interchangable and it depends on which pan part number you're using, so I'm not sure if the 1-piece only works with Ford-manufactured oil pans, or any oil pan with smooth rails except for Cantons?

3 - What is the best RTV application approach to the oil pan gasket? I've read some just use RTV in the front/rear corners, whereas others RTV the entire gasket to the pan. My pan had RTV everywhere (including inside, which makes me questoin how much to use)

[CraigS]

1- I use a light smear of Ultra Grey. I have never heard about it being incompatable w/ a paper gasket and have never had a problem.
2- I tried a one piece silicone gasket on my 351. My experience is that w/ engine in the car it was impossible. It is so heavy I couldn't get it to stay in position well enough to be comfortable using it.
3- I used a 4 piece. The half moon rubber pieces will stay in position in the grooves if you clean the grooves well w/ brake cleaner. I also put small dabs of rtv at the ends of them. I used a thin smear of UG to glue the side gaskets to the pan and a thin smear on the block too. You will notice tiny tabs, maybe 1/8", on the ends of the side pieces. They are meant to slip into the ends of the rubber pieces. They probably work fine when assembled w/ the engine upside down on a stand. I figured they would just try to push the rubber pieces out of position when installing in the car so I snipped them off. Another reason for the small dab of UG at the joint of side pieces to rubber pieces. You are very correct in worrying about excess rtv in the engine. That is why I say 'thin smear'. It is also why I like Ultra Grey. It is a thicker consistency so I find it easier to get the thin smear vs the blue or black stuff which is thin like mayonaise and, I think, harder to apply the way I want.
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Permatex-Ultra-Grey-Rigid-High-Torque-RTV-Silicone-Gasket-Maker-3oz-75191/602601102?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=0&wl13=5888&adid=222222222320000000000_1166583682648107_lia&wmlspartner=wmtlabs&wl0=e&wl1=o&wl2=c&wl3=72911703930251&wl4=pla-4576511017949918&wl5=&wl6=&wl7=&wl10=Walmart&wl11=Local&wl12=602601102_0&wl14=ultra%20grey%20rtv&veh=sem&msclkid=5e02a84dcfb91d00db37c056845969d6

[johnnybgoode]

408w w/ a Champ oil pan. Had a small leak at the timing cover so I am replacing the timing cover gasket and decided to drop the oil pan since the gasket looked like it's seen better days. Glad i did because I found a crapload of RTV stuck to the pickup tube screen that's been chilling there for 20yrs.

Some questions for re-install:

1 - Do you install the timing cover gasket (paper) dry, or give it a light smear of RTV, or a light smear of non-hardening gasket maker like Permatex #2? It seems the majority of youtube videos use rtv, but that seems like it would be miserable to remove down the road, plus I'm pretty sure RTV says not to use with paper gaskets (whereas Permatex #2 is compatible with it I believe)

2 - I found a 4 piece gasket on my Champ oil pan. It has solid rails, so can I replace the 4 piece gasket with a 1 piece gasket? I get confusing information here because some sites say as long as the pan rail is flat (i.e., not grooved) you can use the 1-piece. But Canton's website says their 1-piece and 4-piece gaskets are not interchangable and it depends on which pan part number you're using, so I'm not sure if the 1-piece only works with Ford-manufactured oil pans, or any oil pan with smooth rails except for Cantons?

3 - What is the best RTV application approach to the oil pan gasket? I've read some just use RTV in the front/rear corners, whereas others RTV the entire gasket to the pan. My pan had RTV everywhere (including inside, which makes me questoin how much to use)

Below are the installation instructions for my Quality Roadsters oil pan which worked perfectly for me when I did a R&R a few years back. Using the Felpro snap up's plus gluing the one piece gasket to the block pan rails with trim adhesive really made the in car installation easy. Scott

OIL PAN INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS
Congratulations on your purchase of a Quality Roadsters oil pan, the
only oil pan designed from the ground up specifically for your FFR! The
Quality Roadsters 302 pans are designed to use the stock Mustang oil
pickup tube and dipstick. On Mustang donor engines, simply remove
the stock pan and install your new pan. If using a 302 crate, explorer
engine, or other, you must use a stock 87-93 Mustang pickup tube, (or
our high flow tube), and a stock 87-93 dipstick. Our 351W pans come
with a replacement pickup tube and dipstick designed to work with
your new pan. You may also purchase one of our high flow pickup
tubes. If you are using a main cap girdle, the regular pickup tube may
not clear. In this case, you must use our high flow pickup tube. It is
designed to clear most girdles. Any girdle will require custom work on
the pickup tube in order to work.
Make sure the gasket surfaces are clean. I recommend you clean your
new pan before installation as well. Double check to make sure the
windage tray bolts are tight before installation. You must check pickup
tube to oil pan clearance before installing your pan. To do this, install
your pickup tube, and measure from the bottom of the block to the
bottom of the pickup tube. Measure vertically, not on an angle. The
pickup must be 1/2 inch from the bottom of the pan. Measure the
depth of the pan and compare. The pickup tube bracket may be bent
to adjust the clearance if necessary. Test fit the pan to make sure
there are no clearance issues. Put the pan in place on the engine. If
the pan holes wont line up with the block, it’s probably the scraper
hitting the pick up tube. Wiggle the pan back and forth to make a
scratch mark on the scraper to determine where you need to make
your adjustments. Simply bend the scraper down in those areas until it
clears. While the pan is in place, rotate the engine backwards to check
for crankshaft to scraper interference. If the crank is hitting the
scraper, you will hear it, and it will leave a mark on the scraper. Again,
simply bend the scraper down in those areas. I suggest you give the
crank a little extra room just in case you miscalculate. You may also
find that the back lip of the pan (where it goes around the rear main
bearing cap) hits the transmission dust shield, preventing the pan
holes from lining up just right. If this is the case, you can gently tap
the lip in with a hammer. Once you have solved any clearance issues,
you may perform the final install. Apply a small dab of RTV sealant to
the block on both sides of the rear main cap (in the corners), both
sides of the ½ circle on the timing cover (in the corners) and where
the timing cover meets the block. I recommend Felpro pan gasket part
# OS34508R for the 302 and OS34506R or OS30616R for the 351W
depending on engine year (see your parts supplier). This is a onepiece
rubber gasket reinforced with metal, and if installed properly it’s
virtually leak proof. If the engine is in the car and gravity is working
against you, use some interior trim adhesive to hold the gasket to the
block (such as 3M super trim adhesive). The gasket must be installed
on the engine, and then the pan put in place. Do not attempt to install
the gasket on the pan, and then put the pan in place. Make sure the
gasket is in place over the main cap and the ½ circle on the timing
cover. Once the gasket is in place, apply a layer of RTV to the pan on
both side flanges and to the gasket in the corners at the main cap, and
on the timing cover to prevent leaks. Install the pan. If your original
pan had flange reinforcement brackets, do not use them. Also the
stock Mustang pan bolts are to long and will bottom out in the block
before the pan is tight. In all cases MR GASKET oil pan bolt kit part#
6087 works nicely. The flange on the heads of the larger bolts is
sometimes too large to seat properly. In this case, grind off enough of
the flange on the bolts to fit properly. Check that the gasket is
properly in place (especially on the main cap and ½ circle on the
timing cover) and tighten the bolts. The Felpro gasket has metal rings
around each hole to prevent the gasket from being over tightened.
Check your drain plug to make sure it is tight. Install your oil temp
sender or the pipe plug and fill with oil. Use Teflon tape on the pipe
threads. The pan has a minimum capacity of 8 quarts. You can run
more if you like, but do not go over the full mark on the dipstick. Make
sure the dipstick is installed at the proper angle in order to get a
correct reading. The dipstick tube should be close to the cylinder head
if installed properly. You must also add enough oil to fill the filter
(about a quart), and to fill the oil cooler (if you are using one). An oil
cooler and lines can hold as much as 2 quarts.

[efnfast]

On the timing cover gaskset, I don't understand why we spread RTV thinly over it? I've never seen an OEM require gasket + gasket maker, and Felpro says to install dry.

But 90+% of posts on timing cover gaskets people recommend light smear of RTV.

Is it to better seal imperfections on the block the paper gasket can't? Or to make it easier on removal down the road (removing the stuck on paper gasket from the timing cover was miserable)? Or to hold it in place? Or all of the above?

[gbranham]

I smear RTV on all timing cover mating surfaces. Never had a leak.

Greg

[efnfast]

Light smear of RTV it is ... I don't want to take this apart again, lol.

When testfitting I see that the timing cover has play - i.e., it can go up/down/left/right when the bolts are in just hand tight, so it can sit above/equal/below the oil pan mating surface.

My understanding is that on final assembly I want to put the cover on hand tight, then draw the the balancer in which will self-center itself on the crank seal and automatically put he timing cover in the right spot. When this happens should I expect the bottom of the timing cover to end up being flush with the oil pan mating surface (and if not then I did something wrong)?

[gbranham]

Should be flush, yes.

[Ford & Jeep Fan]

1- I use a light smear of Ultra Grey. I have never heard about it being incompatable w/ a paper gasket and have never had a problem.
2- I tried a one piece silicone gasket on my 351. My experience is that w/ engine in the car it was impossible. It is so heavy I couldn't get it to stay in position well enough to be comfortable using it.
3- I used a 4 piece. The half moon rubber pieces will stay in position in the grooves if you clean the grooves well w/ brake cleaner. I also put small dabs of rtv at the ends of them. I used a thin smear of UG to glue the side gaskets to the pan and a thin smear on the block too. You will notice tiny tabs, maybe 1/8", on the ends of the side pieces. They are meant to slip into the ends of the rubber pieces. They probably work fine when assembled w/ the engine upside down on a stand. I figured they would just try to push the rubber pieces out of position when installing in the car so I snipped them off. Another reason for the small dab of UG at the joint of side pieces to rubber pieces. You are very correct in worrying about excess rtv in the engine. That is why I say 'thin smear'. It is also why I like Ultra Grey. It is a thicker consistency so I find it easier to get the thin smear vs the blue or black stuff which is thin like mayonaise and, I think, harder to apply the way I want.
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Permatex-Ultra-Grey-Rigid-High-Torque-RTV-Silicone-Gasket-Maker-3oz-75191/602601102?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=0&wl13=5888&adid=222222222320000000000_1166583682648107_lia&wmlspartner=wmtlabs&wl0=e&wl1=o&wl2=c&wl3=72911703930251&wl4=pla-4576511017949918&wl5=&wl6=&wl7=&wl10=Walmart&wl11=Local&wl12=602601102_0&wl14=ultra%20grey%20rtv&veh=sem&msclkid=5e02a84dcfb91d00db37c056845969d6

I completely agree with the Bold above. And since they came out with the Ultra Grey,black,Red,.... I no longer use any RTV that is not the ulttra RTV.

[efnfast]

I think I understand the timing cover now.

3 questions on the oil pan

1 - My pan has a raised groove in the middle of the "u-saddles" at the front and end of it. When looking at 1 piece oil pan gaskets it looks like they are designed for pans without grooves, so if I have a groove I have to use the 4 piece setup. Is this correct?

2 - When people say to make sure the corners are RTV'd, do they mean the literal corner edges of the pan, or where the flat gasket pieces transition into the rubber U-shaped gaskets at the timing cover and end cap?

3 - On the driver side of the block there's a hole that goes through the oil pan mating surface into open air. I presume this used to be for an OEM dipstick. Is there a good way to plug this hole, other than making a huge RTV blob and hoping it holds?

[CraigS]

1- That was my theory too. I have no idea if it is correct but....
2- I go w/ this, "..where the flat gasket pieces transition into the rubber U-shaped gaskets at the timing cover and end cap?"
3- IDK

[gbranham]

I've always put a blob of RTV on both sides of the gaskets here, at both ends of the block/timing cover, before dropping the pan on. The bolts next to it don't fully seal the gasket alone. At least that's what I've learned, and I don't ever have leaks here when doing this.

Greg

213526

[phileas_fogg]

...

3 - On the driver side of the block there's a hole that goes through the oil pan mating surface into open air. I presume this used to be for an OEM dipstick. Is there a good way to plug this hole, other than making a huge RTV blob and hoping it holds?

I found a bolt roughly the same diameter as the hole & RTV'ed it into place as a plug, with a smear around the threads & a healthy dose under the head. No leaks in at least 3 years.


John

[efnfast]

FWIW I found that an M10x1.5 tap fits the oil pan flange dipstick hole perfectly and cuts perfect threads at the right angle. No drilling or anything required ... so I tapped it to be M10x1.5 and threaded a little bolt in with some thread sealant.

I also discovered how awesome timing cover dowels are - I was trying to figure out if there was some way to minimize the slop of the timing cover, and then realized mine didn't come with any dowels so I picked up a pair and now i have minimal slop, which should hopefuully make crankshaft seal alignment easy breazy (I know to put the cover on finger tight then put the balancer on to center it, but I figure everything I can do it make the installer easier on me is worth it).

I'm now left with one final mystery before I reassemble - the timing cover seal.

My understanding is National 2692 is the correct seal for a 351w timing cover - it appears to cover many vehicles that would have used 351w.

The front seal I pulled out was marked 'E6AE-6700-A2A', so ford OEM, which supercedes to E6DZ-6700-A

So here's my quandry - according to Rock Auto, 2692 is OEM compatible with the E*-6700 part number. But when I bought it from Ford (as for difficult to-get-to seals i always try to use OEM) it only goes to a small handful of vehicles (primarily Ford Rangers) in their system. but all these vehicles take the 2692.

So I think I'm okay to use the Ford OEM, but not 100% confident because why doesn't Ford's system pull up all the vehicle ranges?

Logic would say to use it because that's what I pulled from the timing cover, but upon disassembly I've found a number of thigns I havn't liked that I've changed (like timing cover bolts held on with literally 2 threads, 5lbs of RTV in the oil pan, etc.)

[CraigS]

I had similar problem w. TC bolts. Too long ago to remember details but I do remember trying every bolt by sticking it in it's place and seeing how much stuck out before I started turning it into the threads. I needed to change out a few. Also, again too long ago, but isn't there a bolt or two that have the threaded hole go all the way through the block into the engine so the threads need to be sealed?

[efnfast]

Thread sealent on the 4 bolts by the water jackets, yes - i think that's definately needed because 2 of my bolts had sealent and were fine; 2 of the bolts didn't have sealant and showed a fair bit of corrosion

btw, with respect to the my question on the front seal, for some reason E6AE-6700-A2A goes to a bunch of weird vehicles in Ford's system (like the ranger), but E6DZ-6700-A, which it supercedes to, goes to all of the traditional vehicles you'd expect with a 351w (lie a 1980 mercury grand marquis, which is my reference vehicle for components like the waterpump). So yea, good to go on the timing stuff now. And both of them are the OEM replacement for Nationl (or Timken) 2692


~20yrs ago when I built my FFR I'd never even changed my own oil before and I put it together without a thought in the world. Now all I'm doing is effectively timing cover and oil pan gasket and I'm having an aneurysm at doing everything wrong and causing a leak, lol. Getting old is a real bugger - never once thought about 'what could go wrong' when I was younger; now that's all I think about in every project.

[canuck1]

Good job figuring it out. Wait until you get to sorting out Ford water pump differences (reverse rotation, standard rotation, high flow, standard flow, serpentine or V-belt, 3 or 4 bolt pulley, short/long configuration). :eek:

Sean

[gbranham]

For the various timing cover bolts, I had some threaded rod in the shop of the same thread pitch and diameter as the bolts, and ran it into each bolt hole until it bottomed out, marked the rod with a Sharpie at the face of the water pump or timing cover where appropriate, took the rod out and measured the length. I then ordered 12pt stainless ARP bolts of the appropriate size for each one. The length of the rod was the UHL or Under Head Length of the bolts I purchased. I meant to note the length and position of each bolt for future use and for folks on the forum to use, but I forgot. Kind of wish I would've done that.

Greg

[Rebostar]

On the timing covers I use Permatex Ultra Grey, a very light film on each side of the gasket. Never had a leak. Recall these timing covers, water pumps and blocks are all close to 50 years old and you never know how many times hardening permatex was scraped off it with a chisel in the past. Your hoping the surface is true, using Ultra Grey takes the guess work out of it.
When building up my engines on the stand I use the "one piece" by Fel-Pro, with just a dab of Ultra Grey in the 4 corners. Never had one leak.

213607213608213609

[efnfast]

Got the timing cover back on nicely

Went to do the oil pan and of course the 1-piece Ford Racing I bought was torn out of the box. Quality control sucks these days (I went through 2 broken new Mopar (Denso) alterators for my Viper before I got a working one last month).

When mocking it up though I don't undertsand why we need to RTV the corners with the 1 piece? Totally get it with the 4 piece that does the hokey transition from rubber to gasket material, but a 1 piece is all 1 piece so I'm not sure what we're sealing in that area? Or is it a case that the 5/16'' bolts by the u-humps don't squish the pan enuogh there to get a perfect seal so the silicone finishes the job?

[Mike.Bray]

This is a very nice piece one piece pan gasket that I used.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/mor-93163

[gbranham]

Got the timing cover back on nicely

Went to do the oil pan and of course the 1-piece Ford Racing I bought was torn out of the box. Quality control sucks these days (I went through 2 broken new Mopar (Denso) alterators for my Viper before I got a working one last month).

When mocking it up though I don't undertsand why we need to RTV the corners with the 1 piece? Totally get it with the 4 piece that does the hokey transition from rubber to gasket material, but a 1 piece is all 1 piece so I'm not sure what we're sealing in that area? Or is it a case that the 5/16'' bolts by the u-humps don't squish the pan enuogh there to get a perfect seal so the silicone finishes the job?

In my experience, even with a one-piece gasket, the pan bolts next to the u-hump don't clamp down enough to seal. A dab of RTV solves the issue.

Greg

[efnfast]

when you say a dab, do you mean like the size of a pea infront of the u-humps? or a bead? or just wipe a little it with my finger on the block surface in that area?

[gbranham]

A pea-sized dab will do it.

Greg

[efnfast]

Got the timing cover and oil pan back on ... an hour idling and a few short drives and everything's dry, so finger's crossed.

Not difficult to do, just very nerve racking wondering if there's going to be a leak somewhere and you have to go back to square 1. Plus any time I've had the oil pan off it's always been on an engine stand with a new motor, much simpler, haha.

If you want to be confused, watch all the small block ford videos on timing covers and oil pans - so many techniques, most of which are clearly wrong (like tightening the timing cover w/o the balancer on ... and then subsequently wondering why your front seal is leaking again)

I ended up putting on a dab of RTV on the 4 corners - still not sure it is necessary, but also not certain that it is unnecessary, lol.

And if your pan has smooth rails, use the Ford Racing 1 piece gasket. If you're doing this on the car, it's just so much easier. I tried the 4 piece setup and it was just miserable trying to get it to fit together at the mating pieces. From what I can gather, the Ford Racing 1-piece gasket can be used with all smooth rail 351W oil pans, except for certain model Canton pans because they stamped some of them differently.

[gbranham]

Nice job, dude!

Greg