Coyote low oil pressure question

[Al_C]

Maybe you've experienced this. Assuming you have a Coyote...

First time this happened was last fall. I noticed that I was getting valve noise from the PS cylinder bank. Somewhat alarmed, I called the Ford Tech Line. The guy on the phone (don't recall his name) said "these engines are extremely sensitive to oil pressure." Bottom line, I added a half quart of oil and had no more problems.

Fast forward to this afternoon. I changed the oil a few weeks ago and put 9 quarts of oil in. The dipstick showed the level right at the full mark. I've driven the car, uneventfully, a number of times since then.

Today, I started getting the valve noise again, and noted that the oil pressure was 20 on the gauge. The pressure is usually significantly higher than that, and varies depending on rpm and load. Not today. Nothing I did, varying speed, rpm, etc. would change the oil pressure. It hung right around 20 psi.

So, have you experienced this yourself?
What would cause the oil pressure to remain at 20 and not change, other than a less than full pan?
I have a Moroso oil pan. I only use full synthetic 5W-20. Until last year, I never had this problem (the car has been on the road since late 2019). Could it be that the combination of Moroso oil pan and stock Ford dipstick misrepresents an accurate oil level for the engine?

Other suggestions? I was going to add another half quart, but the dipstick says "full" right now, so I'm not sure that makes sense...
Oh, btw - the MIL is not illuminated. Haven't put a scanner on it yet, but the MIL is usually a good predictor of problem codes.

[edwardb]

A little over 9 quarts is what puts my Gen3 Coyote with the Moroso pan and stock dipstick at the full mark. It's hard for me to believe a difference of a quart one way or the other would change the oil pressure from what is normally seen with a Coyote to a constant 20 psi. Speedhut gauges with the older style Speedhut 2-wire sender? Those have a high failure rate. I'd first do something to confirm the reading is accurate. If it is, the stock oil pump in the Coyote is considered a weak link. That's generally for high performance use. but anything's possible.

I looked at the logs from my Lund tuning session. Oil pressure isn't included in the data stream. So I'm assuming absolute oil pressure isn't measured by the computer. But a quick Google search shows the OBD II code for low oil pressure on a Coyote is P0524. So the engine clearly has it's own sensor and should throw a code if it's low. I'd scan the ODB2 port even if your MIL isn't lit.

[Jeff Kleiner]

First thing I’d do is put a mechanical gauge on it to verify if what you’re seeing is accurate. Older Speedhut gauge senders have a bit of a reputation for failure.

Jeff

[nuhale]

I've had the oil pressure sender issues on mine Al. I've gone thru 3 of em. I had enough and put in remote sender setup and never had issue again. The noise is concerning. Youre about right on the oil volume. I use about 9 quarts too. The dipstick should be fine especially with a Forte build (if i recall). Adding a little more wont hurt but the noise part is concerning.

Text me a video and I'll see if i can help.

[Al_C]

Thanks for the input. Heading out the door, but will be able to do more checks upon my return. I'll post what I find.

[michael everson]

I know this is a longshot, but I had to replace an oil pan on a coyote a few years back and found a Moroso sticker inside the pan that it obviously stuck itself to the oil pick up tube on many occasions. I'm sure that would've severely reduced the oil pressure. Just a thought.
Mike

[Al_C]

Plugged in the OBDII scanner and no codes, stored or pending. I guess that's good news that the PCM isn't freaking out. I don't have a mechanical oil pressure tester, so I ordered one. It should arrive tomorrow.

If in fact the oil pressure is low, I'm more concerned as to why. Mike E. brings up an interesting thought, but why would it have happened last fall, corrected itself, and happen again? I'm wondering if this is a symptom that the oil pump is going bad. Suggestions are welcome; I'll post what I find tomorrow with the tester. I'll do a video for you, Bryan, when I start it up with the tester.

[Ducky2009]

Sorry to hear Al.
As Jeff said, try a mechanical gauge first. BUT, If you're getting valve noise (and you're not low of oil), it doesn't sound like the gauge. I'd stop driving it until you find a solution. Low oil pressure can can cause lots of damage. My first thoughts, drop the oil pan and verify there is nothing in the oil pan. Look at the oil pickup tube and verify that there are no cracks in the tube or cracked welds, etc. I hope you find something at this point, because replacing the oil pump is a major front teardown.... Everything on the front of the engine, then the cam timing chains, before you can get to the oil pump. Much easier with the engine out.
Good Luck

[PNWTim]

Plugged in the OBDII scanner and no codes, stored or pending. I guess that's good news that the PCM isn't freaking out. I don't have a mechanical oil pressure tester, so I ordered one. It should arrive tomorrow.

If in fact the oil pressure is low, I'm more concerned as to why. Mike E. brings up an interesting thought, but why would it have happened last fall, corrected itself, and happen again? I'm wondering if this is a symptom that the oil pump is going bad. Suggestions are welcome; I'll post what I find tomorrow with the tester. I'll do a video for you, Bryan, when I start it up with the tester.

I am no expert but I believe the Coyote oil pump is crank driven which indicates it's either going to work or not. Not a little bit sometimes and really well at others. From what I have read, Coyote's are oil pressure sensitive due to the valve train configuration and low oil would definitely be felt at the top of the engine but that strikes me as unlikely if you have 9 quarts as required.

Is it possible you have a malfunctioning bypass solenoid? I know those are supposed to open as RPM's increase but maybe yours is failing? Bit of long shot.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Al,
Got your message and figured I'd post this here for the group. There has been talk of ticking noises ever since the Coyote was first introduced, so much so that Ford actually issued a TSB regarding it stating that it is an operating characteristic of the 5.0 and effectively conceding that the Coyote is a noisy engine with those noises often being exhibited after an oil change (which apparently you just did).

SSM 52334 2011-2024 Mustang/F-150 - 5.0L - Tick Tap And/Or Typewriter Noise
At Idle - Workshop Manual (WSM) Update
Some 2011-2024 Mustang and F-150 vehicles equipped with a 5.0L engine may exhibit a tick tap and/or
typewriter ticking noise at idle after an engine oil change. It is often referred to as typewriter noise because of
its similarity to the sound of a mechanical typewriter. The noise in question may be heard on some engines
when engine temperatures reach 150°F (65°C) or higher and engine speed is at idle up to approximately 1700
RPM. It can typically be heard at the front wheel well and is often isolated to the transmission bell housing or
oil pan area. The typewriter noise tick rate can be faster or slower and is not detrimental to the engine function
or durability and has no short or long term effects on the engine. This an operating characteristic of the 5.0L
engine and no repairs should be attempted. This information along with an example audio clip has been added
to the WSM Section 303-00 Engine System – General Information > Diagnosis and Testing > Engine > PPT F
> Step F2.

With that said let's see what the mechanical pressure gauge tells us.

Jeff

[rich grsc]

Jeff, my F-150 has done this since the day I bought. I was told it was an 'injector' tick, as never been anything but a slight annoyance, over a 100,000 miles

[Al_C]

I think we found the problem. I want to say we definitely found the problem, but if I do, then something else will pop up...

The mechanical gauge did, indeed, show that the sender is working correctly. Removing the pan showed this:

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=214329&d=1748281960

I believe this debris represents the label that was glued to the bottom of the inside of the Moroso oil pan. Apparently, it separated from the bottom, broke up and worked its way to the oil pickup. A Key symptom that the problem was a blockage was that the oil pressure would start declining (e.g. go from 40 psi to 20psi in 15 seconds), but it I shut the engine off waited a few seconds (like 30) then started it again, everything was fine. What I believe was happening was the paper was being sucked onto the pickup, then when the oil pump suction stopped, the paper would drift away and oil could enter the pump again.

So my recommendation is that if you have a Moroso pan, and it was mounted onto your engine block by someone other than yourself, you might want to ensure that the label was removed prior to assembly. I now know of two other cases of this besides my own, so while rare, it still happens.

[michael everson]

Make sure you contact whoever assembled your drivetrain and let them know. This
Is a potentially costly oversight. This also happened to me.
Mike

[Blitzboy54]

I think that is one of the stickers they send along with the part. I am guessing it was just floating around in there and they didn’t notice. I doubt it was attached to it. At least not on purpose.

I’ll bet it got lost down in the basin and they didn’t see it.

Hopefully no permanent damage was done.

[Jeff Kleiner]

That label inside the pan is what caused the Coyote in Karen Salvagio's Gen 3 Coupe R to grenade during a race.

Jeff

[weendoggy]

Doesn't anybody, builders included, check anything anymore? Damn shame! I had a Holley pan that had a bad weld (pinhole) but couldn't see it until it was on doing my Coyote swap. Wrote them a nice note, got a new one and water tested it. QC is a joke anymore.

[Ducky2009]

Glad you found the problem Al. I don't remember a sticker on the inside of my Moroso pan, but now I'm wondering.

[michael everson]

The sticker is not stuck on the inside of the pan. Moroso throws them in the box with the pan. If it makes it inside the pan, it can hide behind the baffle and easily missed.
Mike

[Dave108]

i am getting the PO521 code with my Coyote gen 3. I have about 100 miles on my MK4. If I erase the code it comes back. My oil pressure seems to be good (initially about 90 ish psi. and as the engine warms up 30 to 50. I'm not hearing any suspicious sounds. I thought the code was because of the changes made at the oil pressure plumbing done with the coyote crate engine install procedure. Now I'm beginning to worry. I am thinking I should drop the pan and check for stickers inside. Anyone know of any other possible causes?

[Al_C]

Here's some advice I was given:
1. Check the sender unit by installing a mechanical gauge. Apparently, the senders that come with the kit aren't always accurate.
2. Drop the pan as you suggested. It is a PITA, but why cause more worry?
3. Use heavier oil, like 5W-30.

If there is debris in the pan, it might appear to be an intermittent problem: the debris gets stuck on the intake and the pressure drops. Then you shut the engine down, the debris drops away from the intake and when you restart it the pressure seems better...

It is highly unlikely that an engine with as few miles as you have has an oil pump problem. Granted, some claim that the plastic gear that drives the pump is a weak link, but I have to believe it wouldn't fail in that time period. Just my 2 cents.

[Dave108]

Update on my PO521 code problem. I had an extra oil pressure sender from my coyote install pack. Decided to change it out with a new unused sensor before dropping the pan. Went for a 20 minute ride with the new sender and so far no codes (except for the permanent PO521). I'll have to keep my eye on it to make sure it does not come back. If it does I'll drop the oil pan - but so far so good. I'll have to figure out how to clear the permanent code. If anyone knows let me know.

[michael everson]

I think the permanent codes go away on their own if the problem doesn't come back after a certain amount of time.
Mike

[Dave Howard]

I had a similar issue with a Gen1 Coyote last season. Good pressure on start up but then drop to near zero after warmed up at lower idle. My mind immediately went to “the oil pump is done. Winter project?”.
- I checked to see if any codes were being given for low oil pressure. None.
- Regular oil change during winter showed no sign of particles. Oil was very clean. Minimal fine build up on the magnetic drain plug.
- Removed oil filter and opened it to inspect the filter media. No signs of particles.
- Removed the oil pan and inspected to bottom for any debris. It was clean. The pick up strainer was clear.
- Removed oil pressure gauge and sending unit and sent the Speed Hut. They overhauled the gauge and sent a new sending unit….NO CHARGE.

Oil pressure gauge is reading perfect again this season.