issue with front spindles and hubs... need some help.

[StangRacer]

Due to using pin-drive wheels I have the SN95 front spindles and upper ball joint adapters...

I ran into an issue today when trying to install the hubs on the spindles. The manual states it is a snug fit and may require some light taps with a rubber mallet to get it into place... I have used SN95 spindles before on Mustangs and the hubs have always slid on the spindle snout with no "taps" required. But I pressed forward thinking these are aftermarket parts and may not have as tight of tolerances as Ford OEM parts. So, I grab my rubber mallet and give it a few strikes and it does not budge. I had to get a pry bar to get it back off the spindle snout and it was only on there maybe a 32nd...

I grabbed a dial caliper and measured the diameter of the spindle snout and got 1.362. I then measured the ID of hubs and got 1.349... Granted I was using my cheap dial calipers that I use for rough measurements so the numbers may not be dead nuts on... but it's not going to be off .013 when comparing the OD of the spindle snout to the ID of the hub.

Has anyone else run into this issue?

If anyone has a set of spindles that have not been installed, can you measure the diameter of the snout? It doesn't matter if they are the FFR two piece spindles since they use the same hub.

Also, if anyone has a set of hubs that have not been installed, can you measure the ID?

Has anyone else run into this issue? If so, what was your solution?

Thanks in advance for any help, suggestions, etc...

[rich grsc]

Poorly made bearings. The SN 95 spindle are Ford production yes? If so 100% bearing issue.

[StangRacer]

I am not sure Rich. They are the spindles that came with the complete kit. I don't know if they are OEM Ford pieces or if someone is reproducing them... The first time I tried to slide the hub on and was met with resistance I polished the spindle snout with some 1000 grit hoping it would be enough. Unfortunately, no joy...

[rich grsc]

Not sure then, I have not found the spindle size, it's 1.377" on a Fox body Mustang

[StangRacer]

Rich, you were right... poorly made bearings.

I searched the inner webs and couldn't find the diameter of the snout on an SN95 spindle... I pulled out a mic to get an accurate number and measured the snout diameter on the spindles I have installed on my FFR... I got a diameter of 1.359. I called a buddy of mine I used to road race with as those guys always have a few sets of hubs laying around. He measured four hubs and got ID's from 1.360 to 1.361. It looks like I will be buying another set of hubs.

[rich grsc]

Just replace the bearings, no need to buy the whole hub.

[Mike.Bray]

Building mine not long after the pandemic I had a ton of missing parts including the hubs. Rather than hold up the project I just bought new ones from Summit, Moog so I know the quality is good and at a ridiculously cheap price. I'm pin drive with SN95 spindles and they slid right on.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/mog-513115

[StangRacer]

Unfortunately, one can’t replace just the bearings in the SN95 hubs. The hubs are to be replaced when the bearings go bad. When I was road racing I would always, very carefully, disassemble them and clean out all the grease that came from the manufacturer and repack them with Redline CV-2 grease.

[michael everson]

Somethings wrong. Either find a better way to measure or call FFR. I have never had one not slide on. Takes careful positioning first but then pushes right on. I highly doubt they are .013 different. Is both sides the same?

Mike

[J R Jones]

SR, Maybe, if it is a hub assembly it may destroy the bearings to get them apart, but it did go together....
Bearings are usually a commodity with spec dimensions. have you searched for replacements? Any ID number on the bearings for size referencing?
I just did the hub bearings on my Acura V6 FWD at 241K miles. The 12 ton press barely did it and the breakaway was frightening. With Rockauto bearing choices, I wanted to ID the original manufacturer, NSK.
It is surprising that a replacement is too small IF it is the right part. A manufacturing defect of too big is more likely. A QC go/no go gage fits or it doesn't.
jim

[rich grsc]

Unfortunately, one can’t replace just the bearings in the SN95 hubs. The hubs are to be replaced when the bearings go bad. When I was road racing I would always, very carefully, disassemble them and clean out all the grease that came from the manufacturer and repack them with Redline CV-2 grease.
Not so, you can replace the bearings. It will take a press though

It looks like you can't find just the bearing :confused:. I guess it's one of those things easier to replace that repair

[StangRacer]

Building mine not long after the pandemic I had a ton of missing parts including the hubs. Rather than hold up the project I just bought new ones from Summit, Moog so I know the quality is good and at a ridiculously cheap price. I'm pin drive with SN95 spindles and they slid right on.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/mog-513115

I just ordered a set of Moogs... fingers crossed these fit. Thanks Mike!

[StangRacer]

Not so, you can replace the bearings. It will take a press though

It looks like you can't find just the bearing :confused:. I guess it's one of those things easier to replace that repair

Rich, when I have rebuilt the SN95 hubs in the past there was no press required. It's actually a very easy process... I say rebuild but it is just removing the factory supplied grease and repacking with a high quality grease. I always used Redline... I learned of the process years ago on the Texas AI/CMC forum or maybe it was on this forum, I don't recall exactly. But anyway, the difficult part of the process is saving the seal. To the best of my knowledge, the components to rebuild these are not available... if the seal is damaged when removing or reinstalling the hub is useless. And it's a small delicate seal... they are not meant to be serviceable. Like you said, replace rather than repair.

[StangRacer]

Somethings wrong. Either find a better way to measure or call FFR. I have never had one not slide on. Takes careful positioning first but then pushes right on. I highly doubt they are .013 different. Is both sides the same?

Mike

Sorry I missed your reply Mike... yes, both sides are the same.

I have found several threads from years ago before the FFR proprietary spindles and it appears this was a common issue with the FFR supplied hubs and SN95 spindles. Many suggested polishing the spindle snout with emery cloth, heating the bearing while chilling the spindle, etc... it seems some have been successful with the heating and chilling method. I am reluctant to heat the bearings as these are designed to be slip fit and I have concerns of removing the hubs in the future should they need to be replaced.

Today I tried polishing the spindle snouts with 400 grit, red scotch brite, 600 grit, then 1000 grit... I then wiped the snout down with acetone and applied some motor oil with the hopes of getting it to slip on... it went on maybe 1/16 as compared to a 32nd before...

So far, I have tried three different sets of hubs... the FFR supplied hubs, a "no name" set of hubs off Amazon, and a set of Moogs. The results were the same with all... they go on about a 32nd and stop dead.

I have replaced a dozen or so sets of these hubs on SN95 spindles in the past on Mustangs. I have never had any of them require any effort other than simply sliding them on the spindle snout. Of course, these were all OEM spindles.

At this point I am considering trying a set of BSA hubs with Koyo bearings. If that doesn't work, which my confidence lever is very low that it will, I may just get a set of OEM Ford spindles.

If you have any suggestions, etc... it will be greatly appreciated.

[michael everson]

I believe the spindles FFR uses for the SN95 stuff were ford parts, no? regardless, all the hubs and all the spindles should be the same size. No matter how many bearings you buy they wont fit if the FFR ones didn't fit.
Mike

[StangRacer]

I believe the spindles FFR uses for the SN95 stuff were ford parts, no? regardless, all the hubs and all the spindles should be the same size. No matter how many bearings you buy they wont fit if the FFR ones didn't fit.
Mike

I had a friend measure a set of hubs he had and they were 1.359… which should work. But I am with you I don’t believe any of them are going to work with the spindles that I received from FFR.

As far as I can recall, all the 94/95 spindles I have used in the past have the Ford logo and part#, F4ZEE, cast into the spindle. The fact the spindles supplied by FFR do not have the Ford logo or part# cast into them, in addition to all the figment issues, leads me to believe they are aftermarket.

[michael everson]

I just measured a set of the new FFR spindles. I get 1.357 with a micrometer
Mike

[Mike.Bray]

My SN95 spindles are OEM Ford that I bought off of eBay. There was so much confusion from FFR when I tried to order the pin drive front end, I literally had to find the part number from an old brochure I had. I had no idea what parts I would receive so I covered my bases with a set of originals. Those were the ones I used and the hubs slid right on. After I had the front end finished a set of SN95 spindles showed up from FFR. I ended up selling them on eBay so I have no idea how the hubs would have fit or not fit.

[StangRacer]

My SN95 spindles are OEM Ford that I bought off of eBay. There was so much confusion from FFR when I tried to order the pin drive front end, I literally had to find the part number from an old brochure I had. I had no idea what parts I would receive so I covered my bases with a set of originals. Those were the ones I used and the hubs slid right on. After I had the front end finished a set of SN95 spindles showed up from FFR. I ended up selling them on eBay so I have no idea how the hubs would have fit or not fit.

That has been my experience when working with the OEM Ford spindles. I gather from the threads I found from several years ago this is/was a common issue when working with the SN95 spindles supplied by FFR.

[StangRacer]

I just measured a set of the new FFR spindles. I get 1.357 with a micrometer
Mike

I measured mine with a good set of mics and got 1.3581 to 1.3583. I have one off the car now and took it over to a friend of mine who is a machinist/engine builder… he got 1.3583 to 1.385 using my mic. I trust his measurements over mine as this is what he does every day.

It appears the spindles I received were incorrectly machined.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Your dimensions indicate a difference of .009". Instead of buying parts freeze the spindles and heat the bearings. I bet they'll go together easily.

Jeff

[Mike.Bray]

It appears the spindles I received were incorrectly machined.

Bummer. Maybe I lucked out by not trying to use mine.

Funny story. I wanted the pin drive setup and remembered seeing it in an old FFR brochure but when I went to order my kit the option wasn't there. I called and they said it wasn't available anymore. Totally bummed out, but just a few days later I was watching Dave Smith do one of his FB Q & A videos and he mentioned the pin drive front suspension option which naturally peaked my interest. He said they get a few inquires for it and if anyone wanted that option to just call and they would provide it. So I called, got the same story that it wasn't available, and of course I pointed them to the boss's recent video so they agreed to supply it to me.

Only problem we then ran into was no one at Factory Five knew what to supply. I sent them the old part number I had but they said they couldn't find the BOM. I gave them the P/N for the lower control arms which I found on the parts page of the website along with the P/N for the spindle adapters that I also found on the website. Months later they sent me a BOM, it was an image actually which tells me it's not in their ERP system and someone must have had an old hard copy.

I should point out that every time I called they would try and talk me out of doing the pin drive saying the wheels were illegal for the street. Not hardly.

In the end I did receive all of the parts I needed but no instructions. But that's okay, like so many times before Kleiner to the rescue! I got it figured out, the alignment numbers came in good, and the car drives like a dream with the "illegal" pin drive wheels.

[StangRacer]

Bummer. Maybe I lucked out by not trying to use mine.

Funny story. I wanted the pin drive setup and remembered seeing it in an old FFR brochure but when I went to order my kit the option wasn't there. I called and they said it wasn't available anymore. Totally bummed out, but just a few days later I was watching Dave Smith do one of his FB Q & A videos and he mentioned the pin drive front suspension option which naturally peaked my interest. He said they get a few inquires for it and if anyone wanted that option to just call and they would provide it. So I called, got the same story that it wasn't available, and of course I pointed them to the boss's recent video so they agreed to supply it to me.

Only problem we then ran into was no one at Factory Five knew what to supply. I sent them the old part number I had but they said they couldn't find the BOM. I gave them the P/N for the lower control arms which I found on the parts page of the website along with the P/N for the spindle adapters that I also found on the website. Months later they sent me a BOM, it was an image actually which tells me it's not in their ERP system and someone must have had an old hard copy.

I should point out that every time I called they would try and talk me out of doing the pin drive saying the wheels were illegal for the street. Not hardly.

In the end I did receive all of the parts I needed but no instructions. But that's okay, like so many times before Kleiner to the rescue! I got it figured out, the alignment numbers came in good, and the car drives like a dream with the "illegal" pin drive wheels.

Mike without you, Kleiner, and Eric I would be fumbling through the pin-drive front end. I especially appreciate you answering all of my questions and concerns regarding the pin-drives and Tilton MC’s via PM’s.

[StangRacer]

Your dimensions indicate a difference of .009". Instead of buying parts freeze the spindles and heat the bearings. I bet they'll go together easily.

Jeff

I am sure you are right Jeff. I am just reluctant to do that due to difficulties removing them in the future when they need to be replaced. After road racing an SN95 Mustang I know how often the hubs go bad. I will never have my car on track and will probably never drive it more than 5/10ths… but seriously, Jeff you don’t know my luck… if I heated and installed these hubs I would probably have one start howling after a couple of miles of finishing the car.

[Mike.Bray]

Mike without you, Kleiner, and Eric I would be fumbling through the pin-drive front end. I especially appreciate you answering all of my questions and concerns regarding the pin-drives and Tilton MC’s via PM’s.

No problem, glad I could help!

[Matt Ries]

I'm thinking .009 as mentioned by Jeff and .013 as mentioned by Mike are both to much of a difference to force over the spindle for an light interference fit between a hub bearing and spindle. It would seam to me the heat and freeze method or just pressing (forcing) it on may expand the inner race of the bearing slightly which in turn may cause premature failure of the bearing and making the replacement way harder than it should be. Then you'll be right back to this point again. I'd source the factory SN95 spindles, IMO.

[Mike.Bray]

https://fac.ksu.edu.sa/sites/default/files/fits_us_tables_ansi_b4.1-1967_r1987.pdf

[StangRacer]

I'm thinking .009 as mentioned by Jeff and .013 as mentioned by Mike are both to much of a difference to force over the spindle for an light interference fit between a hub bearing and spindle. It would seam to me the heat and freeze method or just pressing (forcing) it on may expand the inner race of the bearing slightly which in turn may cause premature failure of the bearing and making the replacement way harder than it should be. Then you'll be right back to this point again. I'd source the factory SN95 spindles, IMO.

That is exactly what I did... found a set on the old ebay and probably paid too much but they were in decent shape. The front end is now together.

[michael everson]

there is no way you are going to heat and freeze your way out of .009 interference. As a Machinist. we used to do this with aluminum. the overlap was .003
Mike

[rich grsc]

100% what Mike is saying, the whole heat-freeze thing is wrong for something that is designed to be serviced. You will never be able to remove the hubs without a puller, and damaging the bearings or hub. The hub is designed to slide on & off by hand with just a slight amount of force. The hub and bearings are held on the spindle by the clamping force of the nut, NOT by being force on by a pressed fit.