Project 818 Development Thread

[Dave Smith]

Following a suggestion from forum members, I am starting this thread to document the 818 project updates in a single place. I may dredge up historic posts to give background and scope to the ongoing project which is the next Factory Five component car package. This is an appropriate place to do this as we approach the one year anniversary of thefactoryfiveforum and 2012 begins in earnest and will end with the launch of the next great Factory Five!

A special note of thanks to all the loyal forum members who have followed this project thru the idea, design contest, chasiss development, discussion of running gear and over-all design envelope, and also thru periods of information and periods of relative silence.

2012 promises to see this car become a final reality and in that realization will be the truth that this forum and everyone here contributed tremendously to a car that will, by design, bring the Factory Five experience and community to people all around the world.

I will get started on this right away, but before I go too far I should make a legal disclaimer:

818 HoF Disclaimer: Factory Five will not be responsible for damages to hats, hair-peices or minor burns to the top of people's heads caused by the introduction of this new vehicle.

[Jeff Kleiner]

A suggestion --- How about sticky this thread to the top of the 818 subforum and lock it so that only Dave, Jim or other FFR personnel can add updates keeping it a dedicated NEWS ONLY source from the "inside". If we have comments or discussion on the development info as it is released here posters should begin a new thread so that Dave's/FFR's news doesn't get lost under multiple pages of opinions and discussion on this one.

JMHO of course,
Jeff

[bromikl]

What Jeff said. The other threads dedicated to Dave's Updates got so busy and on so many tangents they didn't stay "Dave's Updates" for very long.

[VTX]

Can't wait to hear the new updates!

[kach22i]

I will get started on this right away............
Best of luck.

[David Hodgkins]

I have another suggestion. I would like to see Dave use his blot for updates. That way folks couldcomment to their hearts desire but theblog itself could stay focused on updates, and new folks could get caught up on all of Race's posts without having to search for them.

:)

[Dave Smith]

A blog or a sticky that is limited to updates. i'll have something up in the next day or two.

[David Hodgkins]

Either of those will work...

:)

[BrandonDrums]

Ooh, this could simplify what we're talking about over here http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?5094-Can-someone-please-just-send-me-an-email-when

but I still like the idea of an email group...

Thanks Dave!

[thebeerbaron]

Waiting (lurking even) with unlit hair...

[hakalugi]

What Jeff said. The other threads dedicated to Dave's Updates got so busy and on so many tangents they didn't stay "Dave's Updates" for very long.

+2 the aerodynamics nazi on the 24 page thread was so lame, i mean thoughtless, unintelligent, insipid, ignorant, stupid and fat-tire-ish.

[Niburu]

+2 the aerodynamics nazi on the 24 page thread was so lame, i mean thoughtless, unintelligent, insipid, ignorant, stupid and fat-tire-ish.

it takes all kinds

He had some very valid points but didn't know when to stop and just kept pushing his agenda without listening to anyone elses viewpoint.
Really this is what has made this a great forum. peoples willingness to listen to other views and even change their minds.

[BipDBo]

It's already happening.

[BrandonDrums]

It's already happening.

Hey, what you do guys think of this design, FFR should totally make the 818 look at this awesome new design I found!? The engine is also super awesome and ffr should consider a toyota engine for the 818, what engine are they planning for it? They should also use the 6-speed from an STI as it's way better than the 5 speed from a WRX, will that bolt up to a rotary engine? I'm going to put a rotary in my 818, especcially if it looks like a Miata.

http://www.curbsideclassic.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/toyota_mr2.jpeg

...just kidding.

Can we go ahead and have the admin lock this thread? Even by joking we're falling into the same trap!

[Niburu]

They should also use the 6-speed from an STI as it's way better than the 5 speed from a WRX, will that bolt up to a rotary engine?
As a matter of fact you can bollt a rotary up to WRX transmission

[BrandonDrums]

As a matter of fact you can bollt a rotary up to WRX transmission

All joking aside that is actually extremely interesting.

[Gary in NJ]

Hey, what you do guys think of this design

Actually, I owned a Series 1 MR2 back in the late 80's/early 90's, it was one of the most entertaining cars I've ever owned. My brother purchased a Series 2 in '91 (it's still his daily driver), while not as tossable as my Series 1, it has served him well.

For some reason, my favorite sports cars have been the ones with the least horsepower.

[Newman]

7832
All joking aside that is actually extremely interesting.

[Jeff Kleiner]

I rest my case...

Jeff

[blueafro]

+2 the aerodynamics nazi on the 24 page thread was so lame, i mean thoughtless, unintelligent, insipid, ignorant, stupid and fat-tire-ish.

That guy is a known troll that infests several other sites, notably (that I've seen) ones regarding New Space ventures and electric cars. Probably others also.

[VTX]

I rest my case...

Jeff

No kidding. I hope Dave cleans this thread up and deletes everything but the updates.

[D2W]

No kidding. I hope Dave cleans this thread up and deletes everything but the updates.

I hope he just start a new one that is already locked and stickied.


For some reason, my favorite sports cars have been the ones with the least horsepower.

It's always more fun to drive a slow car fast then a fast car slow:)

[Dave Smith]

I'll start a new thread. This weekend Dave Hodgkins was out visiting and we had a chance to talk about the Forum and the 818 section which has been fairly quiet as we work on the car. I will re-do a thread on the 818 as either a blog or a locked thread so that people can use it as a reference. Honestly, I really want to avoid getting people irked, but unlike other companies, we have not taken deposits, we have been crystal clear about the process and the team here feels that we would be best served by shutting down the conversation and simply launching the car. I feel there is good purpose to contined conversation, but I think a reality will be that we will simply stick to development nodes and put out information as we are done with stages. The car is the next product launch for FFR and I won't tell people it will be ready before its ready.

[Oppenheimer]

Looking forward to seeing this car progress through its stages and eagerly, yet patiently, awaiting the updates refered to above as it reaches each of these stages. Its been great to feel a part of the process, and its understandable that part of the development had to end at some point. We will manage to keep ourselves occupied while we wait for each next stage, hopefully without too much dissention, and certainly without becoming a distraction to your work.

In another thread you refered to the 818 as a 'platform', yet also mentioned not being able to make everyone happy. It seems your plan is to build several versions of the 818, so once several of those have been released, I think you will have come as close to making everyone happy as could ever be possible.

But we understand you can't get us there until you get the first one out the door. So by all means, proceed to your goal for 818 version 1 without further hinderence from our noise. Once that hits the streets, the accolades pour in, backs are all patted and champagne is drunk, and you are ready to start thinking about version 2, we'll be here, ready with ideas and feedback, should you want it.

[BipDBo]

Dave, I know that this may not be popular, but I think it would be best not to reveal the final design to this forum before the public reveal. You have taken a lot of feedback from the forum, and I think that the 818 will be better for it, but now, it sounds like you are past the point where you can take any more feedback for major alterations. It's go time, so make sure that the first reveal is done right and given all of the pomp and circumstance it deserves.

With that being said, I appreciate, and hope that you will continue to (without pictures) keep us up to date on the progress.

[Niburu]

more importantly, where are the T-shirts?

[Silvertop]

more importantly, where are the T-shirts?

I have wondered about that myself. However, it occurs to me that an 818-related T-shirt isn't likely to be available until AFTER the shape of Car #1 has been revealed. Without that, what can you put on the shirt? The good news -- we may not need to wait much longer.

[RM1SepEx]

Dave, I know that this may not be popular, but I think it would be best not to reveal the final design to this forum before the public reveal. You have taken a lot of feedback from the forum, and I think that the 818 will be better for it, but now, it sounds like you are past the point where you can take any more feedback for major alterations. It's go time, so make sure that the first reveal is done right and given all of the pomp and circumstance it deserves.

With that being said, I appreciate, and hope that you will continue to (without pictures) keep us up to date on the progress.

huh??? It's a done deal who cares if someone complains... I do expect that minor tweaks will occur etc... but why not wet our whistle/prime the pump a bit! I want info as it becomes available!

[Niburu]

I have wondered about that myself. However, it occurs to me that an 818-related T-shirt isn't likely to be available until AFTER the shape of Car #1 has been revealed. Without that, what can you put on the shirt? The good news -- we may not need to wait much longer.

it could have been text only

A small FFR logo on the the front with
"818 Project Design Team" underneath it

and on the back
"818 - I've heard it both ways"

[BipDBo]

huh??? It's a done deal who cares if someone complains... I do expect that minor tweaks will occur etc... but why not wet our whistle/prime the pump a bit! I want info as it becomes available!

Do you really want to see the final product be revealed likethe models were in that video conference. Everyone nitpicked over grainy overhead screen captures, and few were exicted about any of the designs as a result. When Jims model eventually got the detail treatment and proper photo shoot, a few peope even trned aound to like that one a bit.

I'm not really against a few well shot teaser pics. The big OEMs know those have value. I would just hate to see the first impression of the design to be cast in poor light.

[Silvertop]

it could have been text only

A small FFR logo on the the front with
"818 Project Design Team" underneath it

and on the back
"818 - I've heard it both ways"

Yeah, that would work. Though the inclusion of 818 Shape #1 would be a nice touch as well.

[jayguy]

How about a t-shirt with the tube-chassis on it? Since there will be a few bodies, why not have one with the frame? It'll apply to all future builders, regardless which way they build it.

[RM1SepEx]

[QUOTE=BipDBo;51904]Do you really want to see the final product be revealed likethe models were ... QUOTE]

Yup, tease me at every possible point that it makes sense... They have specific points in the product development where things are firmed up, let us know. Some of us will be working the donor parts to co-ordinate with kit release... It can take time to recondition, powder coat, rebuild etc... I'm looking for that 2.5L WRX with low mileage donor right now...

plus it will keep interest up. Once stuff is firmed up we need to avoid the useless critique and get with the program, no car is perfect... (My absolute favorite is the Ferrari Dino and changing a bunch of small details wouldn't ruin it for me) Note the 818 fills the same role as a Dino and the 818 will kick butt a Dino was as fast as a Pontiac Fiero! :-)

back to my garage, the 69 Sonett resto is getting close... wiring done except the Lucas DL3A 2 speed wiper motor and associated wiring. Put high test in the tank for the first time today. Too bad I'm off to the BMWCCA Congress in Dallas for the weekend. :-(

[Xusia]

I drove a Sonnet III - incredible handling car. Very small and light. Engine and electrical components were unreliable as hell, though! :)

[Silvertop]

How about a t-shirt with the tube-chassis on it? Since there will be a few bodies, why not have one with the frame? It'll apply to all future builders, regardless which way they build it.

A perfect idea! Add that to Niburu's suggestions above, and we've got our T-Shirt!

Dave?

[Silvertop]

QUOTE] ...........back to my garage, the 69 Sonett resto is getting close... wiring done except the Lucas DL3A 2 speed wiper motor and associated wiring. Put high test in the tank for the first time today. Too bad I'm off to the BMWCCA Congress in Dallas for the weekend. :-([/QUOTE]

Can you provide photos of your project? I owned a '69 Sonett myself in the 1970's, and still wish I hadn't let it go. I loved that car. Most unique car I ever owned. I also drove other models of Saabs -- 96's and 99's -- through much of my life (younger days, before Saab went upscale), and ice raced a 96 in the early and mid 1970's.

[Silvertop]

I drove a Sonnet III - incredible handling car. Very small and light. Engine and electrical components were unreliable as hell, though! :)

The Sonett III was an interesting car -- prettier than the Sonett II and Sonett V4, though I never thought it had as much panache as the original design, which had a sort of homemade or kitcar look to it, even though it was factory made.

I'm a little puzzled by your reference to the unreliable engine. The Ford V4 used in all but the earliest Sonetts (the Sonett II, which used Saab two-cycle, three cylinder engines) was by most accounts virtually bulletproof. It was used for decades as an industrial engine as well as an automotive power source, including use in portable generators and forklifts.

If memory serves, the Sonett used a mix of Bosch and Lucas electrics. The Bosch stuff was mostly pretty reliable. The Lucas stuff -- not so much............

Ending thread hijack, sorry about that.

[Xusia]

That was the experience of the friend who owned it. It was seemingly always in the shop for an electrical problem or engine problem. Since it wasn't mine, I can't say much more...

[Oppenheimer]

bulletproof engine != reliable engine

Bulletproof = not easily destroyed
Reliable = doesn't fail to proceed

Something can be bulletproof yet unreliable.

[agepag]

Has Dave started a new thread ot blog yet? I can't seem to find anything.

[Niburu]

Something can be bulletproof yet unreliable.

see rotary engine

[Silvertop]

bulletproof engine != reliable engine

Bulletproof = not easily destroyed
Reliable = doesn't fail to proceed

Something can be bulletproof yet unreliable.

True enough. But my experience with the old Saabs is that the Ford V4 engines were both bulletproof AND reliable. Which of course doesn't mean that a particular vehicle may not have problems. This is what I suspect happened with Xusia's friend.

The engines, in stock form, were not particularly fast, generating an anemic 73hp. They responded well to tweaking, and tended to remain relatively reliable in race form, assuming that it was done correctly -- but that is a big assumption.

[Silvertop]

Has Dave started a new thread ot blog yet? I can't seem to find anything.

I'm guessing he won't initiate the new thread/blog until he has something new to tell us. Here's hoping that is soon.

[mekeys]

-------JUNE------???????

Mel

[Xusia]

OMG, please no. I can't wait that long! LOL

[Silvertop]

-------JUNE------???????

Mel

I suppose it could be that long before we see an actual photograph of a drivable 818 with a body on it.

Though we may see a lesser reveal much sooner than that. An excerpt (below) of a comment made by Dave Smith on the Performance Expectations thread a week or so back (Post #39) indicates that FFR MAY soon release some CAD drawings of the first body if "all is good". See below:

"The final body shape of the first 818 model has been selected and has been fully digitized. It will be a roadster to start with a later soft top for sure and a likely removable hardtop. We will not show the body until we have a driving car. We MAY show the finished CAD model body shape soon if all is good. The project has gone a bit dark and that is a function of us having the data we need and simply wanting to design and build the car as fast as possible without compromising quality or making claims that end up inflated."

Here's hoping "all is good"! I don't want to wait until June either...............

[RM1SepEx]

at Moochfest he indicated that he would release them along with preliminary donor parts lists etc... He wasn't really clear on timing but it sounded to me like weeks. not months

[DrieStone]

at Moochfest he indicated that he would release them along with preliminary donor parts lists etc... He wasn't really clear on timing but it sounded to me like weeks. not months

I thought he said the parts list would be part of the new website.

[RM1SepEx]

yes... all of the release will happen on that new updated 818 page, isn't that where it belongs?

[BipDBo]

So they posted on Facebook that the new Factory 5 website is up, which is pretty nice looking by the way. The 818 section has a lot of information that we already know, and only shows one picture of the body, a rendering of (the least popular) Jim's design. If you click on concept though, you see this picture, with a print on the wall in the background. Does anyone recognize that design? Is it Jim's?
8161

[vozproto]

All they have as far as pics are Xabiers entry for all drawings and renderings, and Jims for the full scale mock-up.

They're keepin it under wraps it seems.

[VTX]

So they posted on Facebook that the new Factory 5 website is up, which is pretty nice looking by the way. The 818 section has a lot of information that we already know, and only shows one picture of the body, a rendering of (the least popular) Jim's design. If you click on concept though, you see this picture, with a print on the wall in the background. Does anyone recognize that design? Is it Jim's?
8161

That doesn't look like Jim's design. The smaller picture just to the left of the guy on the right is Xabier's for sure. But I can't quite tell if the larger schematic on the wall is also Xabier's. It doesn't quite look the same.

[riptide motorsport]

the parts list is there,

http://www.factoryfive.com/kits/project-818/what-you-need/

http://www.factoryfive.com/kits/project-818/what-you-get/

[kach22i]

Does anyone recognize that design? Is it Jim's?
I agree that it looks closest to "X's" design. However the roof line is unknown, the nose could be different, and it could even look like what I faked in which is more Vman Vantage-like.

Leaves something to the imagination, don't it?

http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile%202%20-%20Odds%20and%20Ends/
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile%202%20-%20Odds%20and%20Ends/Cropped-818.jpg

Alternate roof, with a little structure tossed in.
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile%202%20-%20Odds%20and%20Ends/Cropped2-818.jpg

[BipDBo]

I agree that it looks closest to "X's" design. However the roof line is unknown, the nose could be different, and it could even look like what I faked in which is more Vman Vantage-like.

Leaves something to the imagination, don't it?

[/IMG]

I knew we could depend on you, kach.

It's got some lines that look somewhat like Jim's and somewhat like Vmans. Who know, though, it could be completely unrelated to the final 818 design.

[riptide motorsport]

You guys are great!!

[16g-95gsx]

That appears to be a picture from when the clay model of Xabier's was being built. I don't believe what you're seeing should be really looked into that much.

[16g-95gsx]

the parts list is there,

http://www.factoryfive.com/kits/project-818/what-you-need/

http://www.factoryfive.com/kits/project-818/what-you-get/


This is the biggest thing that I take away from the website revamp. Lots of good stuff here. Looks like it is designed to use stock seats afterall. I can't believe that as they are so much heavier than aftermarket models. That is a good thing IMO if they can still achieve the weight target.

[Silvertop]

I agree that it looks closest to "X's" design. However the roof line is unknown, the nose could be different, and it could even look like what I faked in which is more Vman Vantage-like.

Leaves something to the imagination, don't it?


Fun stuff. I agree that the drawing in the background resembles Xabier's rendering, but also reminds me of V-Man 7's, even before you drew in the possible rooflines. And as VTX pointed out, the drawing at right rear clearly is a representation of Xabier's rear view.

What does it all mean? Potentially, that the final body could be a collage of the best features of multiple designs. Or it could mean nothing at all -- simply a generic rendering showing the general shape and size of the body relative to the chassis, but not indicative of what will specifically be built.

Yes, it leaves plenty to the imagination -- and probably by intent.:p

[Benji]

As has already been stated, it is merely a picture from when they were doing the clay model of X's design, I believe it has already been shown.

[GUNS]

Dave, any updates?

[shinn497]

Shazbot I got all excited for nothing!

><

[Gary in NJ]

I'm starting to become seriously disinterested. Too much hype too soon, and now nothing.

[Oppenheimer]

Hype as in unfulfilled promises, or just fewer updates than before?

They told us from the start when to expect the car to become available, and they are still on track for that delivery date (no unfulfilled promises). They told us they had to go heads down for a while, to get some stuff done, and there would be fewer updates (we were to expect fewer updates).

[Gary in NJ]

I didn't mean "hype" as in unfulfilled promises. They turned on the marketing machine too early. There was a lot of activity with almost daily updates. We all felt like we were part of something cool...and then we got kicked off of the cool-kids table.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Perhaps it has been decided to do as you suggested a few months ago.


I'm starting to think that Dave should close the public comment process and just present a final product when it is complete.

Cheers,
Jeff

[Nuul]

I didn't mean "hype" as in unfulfilled promises. They turned on the marketing machine too early. There was a lot of activity with almost daily updates. We all felt like we were part of something cool...and then we got kicked off of the cool-kids table.

I know what you mean but I understand why they are doing it. I'd rather have them heads down and getting the product out the door than giving us updates. I'm wanting the coupe version so I have even longer to wait :(

[bugeye_fever]

As I die hard Subie guy, its tough waiting for updates. I've been watching the brz for some time now as well, and feel its been waaay worse at giving out little tidbits at a time. I got excited about the EPA estimated fuel consumption article that c&d put out a little while back for crying out loud. I'd rather see some hard specs on things like suspension geometry and how much area there will be in the wheel wells for fitting larger tires. But then again, my primary interest in the 818 is track work. Either way while I wait for more specs, i'll focus on saving some cash and finding parts.

[Flamshackle]

Oh for the love of cars please give us an update Dave Smith. I am becoming obsessive about this car clicking on this forum twice a day waiting for news :(

[apexanimal]

don't ask for an update on april fools... just setting ourselves up ;)

[Flamshackle]

don't ask for an update on april fools... just setting ourselves up ;)

hahahaha...

[Dave Smith]

Hey, its April 2 so I guess everyone is safe. The car is going together mechanically and we've got production work starting on the first body shortly. I may release a digital file of the actual body that we are going to production with IF i can get the guys to take a break. I am very happy with the direction and pace of the mechanicals, but the body has been tough. Still we should be able to tell more soon, and don't blame the guys for the black-out, that's all me as I want to build the car and have it fully tested before we get too crazy with marketing.

[Dave Smith]

I'm going downstairs right now to check out the latest from Jesper.

[Niburu]

Still we should be able to tell more soon, and don't blame the guys for the black-out, that's all me as I want to build the car and have it fully tested before we get too crazy with marketing.

I think everyone here realizes this, we're gonna grumble about it but we understand why.
For me personally, I am more interested in how the mechanicals are going together.
There's a very good chance I'll be moving to Vermont in the coming months and that makes Subaru buying much cheaper and a drive out to FFR in the realm of possibility.

[PhyrraM]

I have always been in the "let me see a sneak-peek of the gocart" camp....hint....hint...

[shinn497]

I'm going downstairs right now to check out the latest from Jesper.


I thought I was going to take a nap until I read that.

OTL

[BipDBo]

Dave, I've said it before, but it bears repeating. If you're going to reveal the final design in any way, do it right. Make it look good.

[metalmaker12]

I can't wait to see it in person and order a kit, but building it is going to really be the best part
I have been searching for a good donor, and I have found some, but not as low cost as I hoped.
I live in rhode Island and hope to be one of the first to own and build this masterpiece.

[jimgood]

Decent WRXs are hard to come by. Most have been modified and thrashed, just like a lot of Mustangs. And many of the people that have modified them think they should get back what they put into them. Hopefully, some salvage yard will come up with a donor pallet as was done with the Mustang pieces for the other FFR kits. Personally, I have no desire to tear down a donor, though you can make good deal of your money selling off unneeded body parts.

[Nuul]

The $5k price tag is only going to happen if you're willing to get the 165 HP NA variety. If you want a WRX you're going to pay more for it and it's probably going to be beat up. I got lucky and found a good deal on the NASIOC forums but it requires some work to get it ready to be transplanted (dead engine). Since we have some time before the 818 is released anyway I didn't mind and the price was right.

[Niburu]

Nonsense, just watch the New England area Craigslist postings, I see sub $5k '02-'03 WRX's posted up on the regular.

[Etos]

The $5k price tag is only going to happen if you're willing to get the 165 HP NA variety. If you want a WRX you're going to pay more for it and it's probably going to be beat up. I got lucky and found a good deal on the NASIOC forums but it requires some work to get it ready to be transplanted (dead engine). Since we have some time before the 818 is released anyway I didn't mind and the price was right.

I think 5k is definitely doable with a salvaged car. Also just getting all the required parts doesn't seem like it would be that much higher then 5k. 06+ trans are going for $800, long blocks can be in the area of 1500-3000, hubs can be taken from the junkyard for cheap, lower A arms are dirt cheap if you go for the steel over alum, gauge cluster/ecu pretty cheap from a junk yard, brakes dirt cheap too unless you want brembos.

Big advantage of getting parts instead of a donor is you can pick and choose what parts you want. Older 205 WRX engine, which turbo, 06+ gearing or 05- gearing, brakes, control arms. Sure it can be a little more expensive but you get what you want.

Lets put it this way, a GTM kit costs $20k, if you can build an 818 that costs 17-18k that is indeed very nice.

[jayguy]

So will there be camo-covered 818's running around Wareham soon? Will the car-parazzi be hiding in the bushes trying to get a glimpse under the padded vinyl and mesh?

[metalmaker12]

I think 5k is definitely doable with a salvaged car. Also just getting all the required parts doesn't seem like it would be that much higher then 5k. 06+ trans are going for $800, long blocks can be in the area of 1500-3000, hubs can be taken from the junkyard for cheap, lower A arms are dirt cheap if you go for the steel over alum, gauge cluster/ecu pretty cheap from a junk yard, brakes dirt cheap too unless you want brembos.

Big advantage of getting parts instead of a donor is you can pick and choose what parts you want. Older 205 WRX engine, which turbo, 06+ gearing or 05- gearing, brakes, control arms. Sure it can be a little more expensive but you get what you want.

Lets put it this way, a GTM kit costs $20k, if you can build an 818 that costs 17-18k that is indeed very nice.

I am a subie guy, having owned two rexs and one sti. I also deal with wrecked cars often so I am noticing these cars have a high demand which brings the price up. I have found 02-03 high mile wrx's in the sub 4k area, and some impreza's in the 3k area, but nothing like 500 bucks dave lol. These cars, even in salvage yards hold their value. 06-07 wrx's are 6-8k in salvage working order and 4k-6k wrecked. I think my best bet is to get a 02 impreza for like 2k and a version 7- 8 jdm sti motor/tranny swap for like 3500. That would mean 280-300hp with forged internals and all the hardware to make it go for like 5-6k. I mean at least the motor would have less miles and great power. As some of you know jdm sti motors are 2 liters and can get 450whp with a tune and intercooler/turbo upgrade without touching the engine. I am unsure of how the harness is being developed or we are using the wrx harness etc. This is why they want you to get a donor car. worst case I would have to get a wrx/sti harness, but we will cross that bridge when we get there. (Case in point, If you have not noticed I am trying to build the best kit in the 15k-16k area.....cheers!)

[Oppenheimer]

Where did you get $500? The $15K as built quote from Dave assumes you can get a donor for $5K, which your quotes seem to indicate is doable.

But I think you are on to something with your idea. Trying to find a decent, unabused salvage WRX donor is not going to be easy, or cheap. The one downside to Subie as donor is artificially high prices for used stuff. And since FFR is going to have us reusing lots of odds and ends from the donor, just trying to buy all the parts piecemeal is not going to be realistic. Donor pallet concept will be equally difficult to find non-abused motors. But buying a base Impreza as donor for all the odds and ends, even low mileage & cared for, won't be that tough. Then buy the WRX motor (or motor trans combo) seperately. You will need a WRX ECU (or STi) to match your choice of motor, harness too perhaps.

If most 818 guys do what most guys do with the FFR Roadster, buy a single donor (or pallet), do a rebuild on the motor, cleanup/paint the rest, your idea should be cost competitive with that with a better result.

I think there will be 3 economical paths:

- single WRX donor, rebuild stuff as needed
- base Impreza donor, motor/trans sourced seperately
- STi donor, sell the STi stuff you don't need for 818

Each has their pros & cons, and there are variations of each as well. I think the worst bang4buck route will be to try and buy a really nice, low mileage, well cared for WRX, so you don't have to rebuild anything and can just dismantle and build. The cost of the WRX will just be too high. I see this as a good thing though, as it will limit destroying a perfectly good WRX to become an 818.

[Xusia]

I think my best bet is to get a 02 impreza for like 2k and a version 7- 8 jdm sti motor/tranny swap for like 3500. That would mean 280-300hp with forged internals and all the hardware to make it go for like 5-6k.

This is essentially my plan as well. The only difference being I think I would prefer the 2.5L engine, but the JDM 2.0L is a definite option. Price will probably determine which way I go. $20k is my max, but less is always better. That said, I don't think I'll be able to get away with spending less than $15k (unless I were to go with the stock Impreza engine).

[metalmaker12]

I thought I heard someone from FFR say you can get a impreza for like as low as 500 bucks. I know they stated that this car can be built for 15k.

Either 2.0 sti or 2.5 sti will work for me. I found a local beat up 03 impreza for like 1,800, going to take a look at it today, wish me luck

[Nuul]

I think there will be 3 economical paths:

- single WRX donor, rebuild stuff as needed



This is the one I chose. My reasoning being that I'm going to beat the ever-living crap out of the engine once it's in an 818 - how could you not? So I need to know it can take the abuse I'm going to dish out. Asking an engine with 200K+ (typical of affordable WRXs unfortunately) on it is too much to ask so a rebuild is going to be mandatory. A new STI lower end from Subaru can be purchased for $1700 online so I'll be buying that, cleaning up the heads, etc and bolting them onto it's new home. A tune is going to be needed since it's a 2.5L block with 2.0L heads but that should be done anyway.

[Nuul]

I thought I heard someone from FFR say you can get a impreza for like as low as 500 bucks. I know they stated that this car can be built for 15k.



It was said in a video, I caught it too. I knew he meant 5K though because I'd seen it in writing though. I just assumed it was brain thinking one thing and mouth not getting the message.

[bugeye_fever]

I think I'll be taking the route of finding each part, I don't have the money or space for a whole donor car, I've also got a spare drivetrain in the garage already. I mean, i've already got an '02 in the driveway, but she's waaay to beautiful to scavenge parts from. Plus theres plenty of time to pick the parts you want, and most of the wrx donor parts aren't priority parts in the Subie community, so I don't think there'll be much of a problem getting them from part outs. 'Cept for the AL lower control arms, I've been looking for them for a while. Some hubs, suspension arms, and a steering column shouldn't be hard, I'm not concerned with brakes as I'm looking forward to the track version.

[Evan78]

I thought I heard someone from FFR say you can get a impreza for like as low as 500 bucks. I know they stated that this car can be built for 15k.

Either 2.0 sti or 2.5 sti will work for me. I found a local beat up 03 impreza for like 1,800, going to take a look at it today, wish me luckAny car of any age that runs decent and doesn't need any major work is going to be $1000+ in my experience. For donors, I would look at cars that make them undesirable to the general masses, but good as a donor. Salvage titles, major body damage, that kind of thing.

[PhyrraM]

If I had to take an educated guess, Dave's offhand $500 comment was meant to apply to an earlier car - say a '95ish Impreza or Legacy.

While there has been no official word from FFR about support beyond the stated '02-'07 WRX sedan, those of us that know the hardware pretty well know that there are *very* few things that will prevent the earlier stuff from working.

[metalmaker12]

If I had to take an educated guess, Dave's offhand $500 comment was meant to apply to an earlier car - say a '95ish Impreza or Legacy.

While there has been no official word from FFR about support beyond the stated '02-'07 WRX sedan, those of us that know the hardware pretty well know that there are *very* few things that will prevent the earlier stuff from working.

The impreza I looked at was wreck beyond my liking. It had major left front end and suspension damage, and the engine bay had cracks in it. I was not going to take the chance on it. I have been wondering about the 97-00 impreza's working, due to the close geometry of the spindles and steering racks

[GUNS]

I'm going downstairs right now to check out the latest from Jesper.

So what'd you find out?

[Gary in NJ]

So what'd you find out?

They tied him up so he couldn't post anything here. They'll untie him in the fall when they're done.

[thestigwins]

Seriously all I need to see is the 3d rendering. If it looks HOF then I will start looking for a donor asap. Dave, The suspense is killing me!

[metalmaker12]

The impreza I looked at was wreck beyond my liking. It had major left front end and suspension damage, and the engine bay had cracks in it. I was not going to take the chance on it. I have been wondering about the 97-00 impreza's working, due to the close geometry of the spindles and steering racks



Got a 02 wrx I am picking up for a good price, a version 8 sti motor/harness ecu, and built straight cut geared 5 speed wrx tranny. woooo hooooo

[bugeye_fever]

That sounds pretty nice! I'm beginning to think an NA motor with a supercharger would work really well for smooth power delivery. Which is what this car will need to put the power to the ground.

[metalmaker12]

That sounds pretty nice! I'm beginning to think an NA motor with a supercharger would work really well for smooth power delivery. Which is what this car will need to put the power to the ground.


kid backed out on car, yet another craiglist crap out, kinda T'ed cause I had the trailer all set up and stuff, o well will find another deal

[BrandonDrums]

kid backed out on car, yet another craiglist crap out, kinda T'ed cause I had the trailer all set up and stuff, o well will find another deal

Don't worry, here's your donor. http://erepairables.com/salvage-classifieds/cars/subaru/impreza+wrx/2002-subaru-impreza+wrx-284063?bm=12

all OEM 2002 with 138k on the odo. Totaled for rear corner body damage. Has the original USDM EJ20 block and heads. Heads are less prone to cracking than 04/05 and rod bearings less likeley to spin. Has the glass tranny though but the savings can get you aftermarket gears. I say take this and build the engine and tranny the way you want because it's CHEAP!


EDIT: oh yeah, forgot to say it's in New Hampshire so within 6 or 8 hours if that much so you can save oodles on freight.

[metalmaker12]

Don't worry, here's your donor. http://erepairables.com/salvage-classifieds/cars/subaru/impreza+wrx/2002-subaru-impreza+wrx-284063?bm=12

all OEM 2002 with 138k on the odo. Totaled for rear corner body damage. Has the original USDM EJ20 block and heads. Heads are less prone to cracking than 04/05 and rod bearings less likeley to spin. Has the glass tranny though but the savings can get you aftermarket gears. I say take this and build the engine and tranny the way you want because it's CHEAP!


EDIT: oh yeah, forgot to say it's in New Hampshire so within 6 or 8 hours if that much so you can save oodles on freight.

Thank you for caring bro, I have looked at this one and I will give them a call this week. The car I was getting was an 03 with no motor or tranny for 1,500, but this is a good deal

I offered 3,500 for the car in New Hamshire, we will see what they write back

[Flamshackle]

I'm going downstairs right now to check out the latest from Jesper.

The downstairs stair case must be VERY long... its been over three weeks and the poor bloke still hasnt made it back to the key board! ;)

[mekeys]

I told you so,it would be JUNE or later..

Mel

[Flamshackle]

I told you so,it would be JUNE or later..

Mel

Yea you were right!
They should really invest in a high speed elevator.
It could send productivity through the roof in light of this shocking new revelation that it takes weeks/even months to summit the stair case

[David Hodgkins]

There's a lady who's sure all that glitters is gold, and she's buying a stairway...

[coolbluelb]

So I currently own a stage II '05 LGT with sub-50k miles... I know the engine/trans would work for this build, but I assume little else. On one hand, I hate the thought of using it for just the parts that will work, but on the other hand I equally do not like the idea of selling it just to buy someone else's thrashed WRX... Decisions, decisions....

[kach22i]

I saw a brand new WRX yesterday in a beautiful blue. The young man driving it caught me checking it out as I pulled to the left of him to make my turn at the light, and was gleaming with pride (I gave him a nod).

I was in my old 911 to get a car wash after changing the fuel filter and have to admit to thinking; if someone rear ends you and totals your ride, I want the scraps.

He probably thought I was just admiring his ride.:cool:

[JAubin]

Hah, I can agree with that sentiment....I feel like a cartoon character seeing an animal and seeing it as a pile of porkchops, etc. Whenever I see a WRX these days I just see the parts I want from it.

[Evan78]

So I currently own a stage II '05 LGT with sub-50k miles... I know the engine/trans would work for this build, but I assume little else. On one hand, I hate the thought of using it for just the parts that will work, but on the other hand I equally do not like the idea of selling it just to buy someone else's thrashed WRX... Decisions, decisions....Well, all else being equal, a LGT should be worth more than a WRX, so you should be able to sell your car, buy a WRX of similar condition and have cash in your pocket. I am in favor of using a car with significant body damage or similar, rather than pulling apart a perfectly good daily driver, but I know others have thicker wallets than I do.

[NonProfit]

I am in favor of using a car with significant body damage or similar, rather than pulling apart a perfectly good daily driver, but I know others have thicker wallets than I do.

I agree and for me it's not just about cash. I'd rather build mine without disassembling a functional vehicle. That's not to say I'd pass one by if the price is right, but I'd prefer to source a wreck.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Whenever I see a WRX these days I just see the parts I want from it.

Ha! Just like those of us who go back to the early days of FFR; we couldn't look at a Fox body without thinking "Nice donor". Heck, I still do sometimes...:D

Jeff

[coolbluelb]

Well, all else being equal, a LGT should be worth more than a WRX, so you should be able to sell your car, buy a WRX of similar condition and have cash in your pocket. I am in favor of using a car with significant body damage or similar, rather than pulling apart a perfectly good daily driver, but I know others have thicker wallets than I do.

Valid point. It is still a lot of fun to drive... Hate the idea of killing it!

[RM1SepEx]

My 05 wrx is in transit. Purchased from copart was in Michigan, I live in Maine
cost almost as much to ship as to purchase
70K miles, stock drivetrain, was rolled, roof crushed both airbags deployed almost every body panel bent.
didn't like dealing with Uship, the shippers backed out of my 3 lowest bids... what a PITA, I ended up shipping with copart too...
I'll update you all to what I end up with, I figured for the price I could replace some parts if needed.
$3500 to Maine (500 more than the original low shipping bid)

So... the $5000 donor wrx is doable, and with a relatively low mileage donor as long as you don't need body parts. Just watched an 06 with light damage go for $7200 in the midwest. (sub 40K miles!)

I did see an 03 impreza NA with rear end damage go for $500 a month ago, they are out there... I could have picked that on up with my trailer, it was only 40 miles away!

Look around there are several auction sites... we have time, just troll and look for something in your budget. I jumped early as I expect it to become more difficult as the kits get released. I have time to check everything out, change timing belt, rebuild as needed, depower the rack, powder coat, buy braided lines, etc...

[RM1SepEx]

I just went up to copart.com there are 6 pages of suitable donors to look at. \
check out this one too...

https://www.iaai.com/Vehicles/Search.aspx

good luck!

Dan

[burken]

Will you be able to use an sti for this or just a wrx. I have looked around and only see (wrx) written. I know they are basically one in the same. I just would like to fun the 2.5 block and six speed. Thanks!

Also, does anyone know whats going on with the ecu/wiring harness. I read through the site and plenty of articles and I am not sure how they are working that part it.
Seems like its going to be tough to go from awd to rwd since you have to deal with all the wheel speed sensors and the center diff trying to control that. Seems like a pain.

[awdball]

I think this has been covered pretty well in previous threads. However, the donor they are using for the go-kart is using a 2.5 liter from the 2006 WRX, a STi 2.5 should take its place pretty easily as far as space constraints are concerned. In regard to the 6 speed, it is looking like the 6 speed isn't fitting the constraints of the project well enough to be recommended, and at first look doesn't appear to be quite as easily converted to FWD as the 5 speed (remember, the transmission gets converted to front wheel drive and then then transmission and engine assembly then gets moved to the back of the vehicle to make it RWD). Between the 2 transmissions only the 6 speed has an active center diff, the WRX diffs are viscous and not controlled by a DCCD computer or ECU, so there won't be any weirdness for the 5 speeds. If some adventurous soul does attempt to use the STi 6 speed, the center diff gets removed anyway and is replaced with a locked down spool, the computer that controls it no longer has a say in what happens with the fore/aft torque split.

[flytosail]

I just went up to copart.com there are 6 pages of suitable donors to look at. \
check out this one too...

https://www.iaai.com/Vehicles/Search.aspx

good luck!

Dan

Seems like many of these owners like to tailgate, text/drive, and run into things.

[RM1SepEx]

I found several items in mine when I tore it apart yesterday that indicate that drinking beer was also a possibility

[Mechie3]

Seems like many of these owners like to tailgate, text/drive, and run into things.

A fair number of Subaru owners tend to think that AWD makes them invincible. Every winter NASIOC is flooded with threads of "I wrecked my car" and "AWD WTF!?". Or just go read any thread about the new RWD BRZ and see how many people claim that AWD is a necessity (even in nicer climates).

They also think a WRX makes them Ken Block. Add it all together and you get what you see.

[wallace18]

I thought it was those dogs driving the cars like in the commercial.

[burken]

I feel like its going to be a mad scramble for people to find a solid wrx donor. Hoping winter brings me good things. Looking to part with my 05 sti for one of these. Always wanted to do a kit car, subaru style. I just want to see what the body is going to look like before I commit to this. Looking to get this thing in ariel atom numbers for under 20k =)

[Mechie3]

I don't think it'll be a mad scramble. In my area (indianapolis) there's only 2 people so far doing this. On here, it seems there's a lot of people talking and contributing, but not that many that have jumped the gun yet (for one reason or another). In the past month, 3 WRX's have been wrecked in Indy. One was mine, another guy got hit when someone else ran a red light (hmm...sounds familiar), and another guy managed to roll his Saab 9-2X (WRX wagon with different bumpers more or less).

[shinn497]

How do you know how many people have wrecked their wrxs?

[Xusia]

To put it somewhat graphically...

Number of people driving/wrecking WRXs
> (read: is FAR greater than)

Number of people building an 818

Availability of donors won't be a problem because of the 818. There may be other reasons for increased demand, but the 818 isn't likely to have any real impact.

[Mechie3]

How do you know how many people have wrecked their wrxs?

They're all on my local Subaru forum. Given how many people aren't on the forums, there's likely even more wrecked this past month.

I'd say the number of people do 818's is equivalent to the number of people doing old school swaps with the WRX chassis. That hardly impacts the availability of WRX chassis.

[RM1SepEx]

join the insurance sites and monitor impreza wrx

always a long list with a couple selling every week as a bare minimum

I expect that good donor prices will rise as people start looking, In my general area of the northeast with a sube shop or two offering donor packages prices will rise for sure as individuals and package shops compete with each other. Supply is strong set what you think it is worth, don't go higher... one will come your way sooner or later

I'm completing the disasembly tomorrow and will get the carcass hauled away late this week

time to post extra parts to the localm sube forums and craigslist

[burken]

I feel like its going to be a mad scramble for people to find a solid wrx donor. Hoping winter brings me good things. Looking to part with my 05 sti for one of these. Always wanted to do a kit car, subaru style. I just want to see what the body is going to look like before I commit to this. Looking to get this thing in ariel atom numbers for under 20k =)

[Racebrewer]

How do you know how many people have wrecked their wrxs?

How many less than 21 year olds drive WRX's?

I was in the hospital 3 years ago with a blown appendix and one of my room mates was a teeny who rolled his Buddy's Subie. The problem with Subie's is that they violate Darwin's theory. The drivers, no matter how stupid, tend to survive. At one point he decided to walk out and collapsed in the lobby. They found a dozen empty Red Bull cans under his bed later.............

Don't worry about donor cars.......

John

[shinn497]

I've never been worried about availability of donors.

[RM1SepEx]

copart has 86 02-07 imprezas listed right now... always avail, bidding will go up when more people are interested in a particular car

[Mechie3]

Not sure if there was a better thread to put this, but since it's development:

The rear steel arm on the WRX usually has a bracket that allows the endlinks for a swaybar to be attached. In the video, it looks like they removed that bracket (or installed the arm backwards and you can't see the bracket). To me, it implies a no-swaybar setup.

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q291/mechie3/818rearsuspension.jpg

[SkiRideDrive]

Not sure if there was a better thread to put this, but since it's development:

The rear steel arm on the WRX usually has a bracket that allows the endlinks for a swaybar to be attached. In the video, it looks like they removed that bracket (or installed the arm backwards and you can't see the bracket). To me, it implies a no-swaybar setup.

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q291/mechie3/818rearsuspension.jpg

Based on the evidence you have provided, I have been assuming no sway bars for a while. Anyone know approximately how expensive different rate spring sets will be for the supplied shocks if we need to dial in the balance?

[leetfade]

Depends on the springs. You can get Eibachs in the $300ish range and Swift Springs for a little more.

[SkiRideDrive]

Depends on the springs. You can get Eibachs in the $300ish range and Swift Springs for a little more.

That's a little much to have a selection on hand for tuning...

[leetfade]

I agree! But for someone that is full-time racing the budgets are usually a little different than mine... :rolleyes: But, usually, you would likely stick to a street and track combo, correct? Having 2 sets isn't too terrible.

[SkiRideDrive]

I agree! But for someone that is full-time racing the budgets are usually a little different than mine... :rolleyes: But, usually, you would likely stick to a street and track combo, correct? Having 2 sets isn't too terrible.

In theory yes, it's just the number of sets it takes you through trial and error to arrive at those setups that concerns me.

[leetfade]

A very good point. ;)

[Racebrewer]

Usually there are lots of used race springs out there for about $50 a spring.

The lengths and ID's are pretty common and due to the varying weights of race cars, there are lots of spring rates to be had.

Besides Eibach, Swift,Hyperco,etc, etc. Come to mind. Check the stock car magazines for shops that sell race car stuff.

John

[Evan78]

If the car doesn't come with sway bar provisions, you could always install your own if desired.

[SkiRideDrive]

If the car doesn't come with sway bar provisions, you could always install your own if desired.

I was just thinking about that...

Oh and thanks for the spring info guys.

[Mechie3]

I was thinking no swaybars was a good thing. It gives you more options for the lateral links (WRX, or STI) and you might be able to use two of the front 06 WRX arms in place of the rear steel arms. Also, if they make it handle really well with the right and left sides fully decoupled, that's a good thing. It does make tuning for different surfaces and tracks more difficult though.

[Mechie3]

Another video:

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/project-cars/2002-Subaru-impreza-wrx/setting-goals/

[07FIREBLADE]

.... But I wanted to build the first one. Lol it's all good I will let GRM build it. The video was good for the fact that it showed what two guys about average size and weight have in space. Keep in mind no body is on it. But you get an idea.

[Etos]

I was thinking no swaybars was a good thing. It gives you more options for the lateral links (WRX, or STI) and you might be able to use two of the front 06 WRX arms in place of the rear steel arms. Also, if they make it handle really well with the right and left sides fully decoupled, that's a good thing. It does make tuning for different surfaces and tracks more difficult though.

Rear lateral links for STi is aluminum.

Swaybars are a way to minimize roll and too much independent suspension travel with softer springs. Once you have firm enough springs there's almost no use to swaybars. You'll see plenty of people go either OEM swaybar or no swaybars at all once they get a firm enough spring.

[jsquared]

The problem with that mindset is that "firm enough spring" makes the car only good for smooth, pristine surfaces. A track-only car can get away with it, but a street car typically cannot. Even some racecars that drive on less-than-perfect tracks will need a swaybar, as super stiff springs on a less-than-perfect surface will cause the car to skip around and you'll have LESS grip. The Audi prototypes, Porsche RS Spyder, etc all still have swaybars. Small ones, but they are still there.

[Nelff]

I know that some are going to build a gokart with a hard suspension and little travel. Personally, I already have a car like this and I only drive it when I'm going to be alone having fun. It grips until the traction is gone and then you really have to stay on top of it. But, it's some of the most fun that a car can be. The wife doesn't like 'just' riding in it, she does like the high speed blasts and the sliding sideways but then she's done. It's really too intense. I have to concentrate driving it. Kinda like a weapon, decide what the target is, aim and pull the trigger. That said, I frigging love the car. And there will be those who build their 818 like this. I personally want something light, tossable with a descent suspension travel. I'll probably use bars to keep it flat and not so lo-profile tires and deal with the suspension dive under braking.

[BipDBo]

Thanks in part to the boxer engine, the 818 will have a very low CG, especially when topless. This will help to diminish the need for a swaybar.

[bromikl]

What happened to the hydraulic balancing suspension? It can work in theory, and it has been done. The first prototype may not be the greatest, but the idea has a lot of potential. I wouldn't wait for FFR to develop this, but there are guys reading this who have the ability.

[BipDBo]

deleted post- had wrong thread

[PhyrraM]

Thanks in part to the boxer engine, the 818 will have a very low CG, especially when topless. This will help to diminish the need for a swaybar.

Also, being a clean-sheet suspension design FFR can put the roll centers pretty much anywhere they want. The closer they are to the COG - the less the tendancy to roll. Theoretically, they could put the roll center above the COG and make a car that has a natural inward lean, like a motorcycle.

[BipDBo]

Also, being a clean-sheet suspension design FFR can put the roll centers pretty much anywhere they want. The closer they are to the COG - the less the tendancy to roll. Theoretically, they could put the roll center above the COG and make a car that has a natural inward lean, like a motorcycle.

I had the same thought, bt wasn't sure if my thinking on suspension dynamics was correct. If that's the case, why wouldn't every car be designed with its suspension "roll centers" at the same height as the COG, and therefore eliminate the need for a swaybar?

[PhyrraM]

Because camber curves (to keep the wheels upright through suspension motion and roll) are considered more important. Also most cars have higher COG than the 818 will have, making it even harder to align the two.

Quick example...most two lane highways are crowned (for water runoff), while most interstates are flat. Hard to accomodate both and still have 'ideal' grip. A soft, but well controlled, suspension keeps the tires planted on the ground (not skipping around), but allows more roll (and brake dive/acceleration squat).

Suspension design is always a comprimise. Roll bars let you comprimise further one way and rely on the bar to 'bring it back' - but link both sides negating some of the independant advantages.

If FFR can keep camber curves well controlled AND raise the roll center close to the COG (traditionally hard to do), then roll bars should not be needed except for very fine tuning on competition cars. We'll see.

[BipDBo]

Because camber curves (to keep the wheels upright through suspension motion and roll) are considered more important. Also most cars have higher COG than the 818 will have, making it even harder to align the two.

Quick example...most two lane highways are crowned (for water runoff), while most interstates are flat. Hard to accomodate both and still have 'ideal' grip. A soft, but well controlled, suspension keeps the tires planted on the ground (not skipping around), but allows more roll (and brake dive/acceleration squat).

Suspension design is always a comprimise. Roll bars let you comprimise further one way and rely on the bar to 'bring it back' - but link both sides negating some of the independant advantages.

If FFR can keep camber curves well controlled AND raise the roll center close to the COG (traditionally hard to do), then roll bars should not be needed except for very fine tuning on competition cars. We'll see.

Thanks. I know that there are a lot of decent books on suspension design. There's also a lot of modeling software. I like that the 818 has suspension that it very adjustable. When I eventually build mine, I look forward to toying with it. I think I could have a lot more fun (and for less $) learning about and tweeking suspension than I would squezzing more hp out of the engine.

[Xusia]

I think I could have a lot more fun (and for less $) learning about and tweeking suspension than I would squezzing more hp out of the engine.

Personally, I think suspension work will make a much bigger difference in track performance (though that does depend somewhat on the track/circuit). On a motorcycle, I'll take a better suspension over more HP any day!