Engine engine engine

[UKSNAKE]

Hi all,

Newb to forum and on list for a 30th anniversary Mk5 even though i have no idea what it comes with yet. Dave just said "It'll be worth the wait".

I am going to build this with my son, and we are all over the place on engines. We want reliability and simplicity, safe to drive while sounding and looking cool. I know thats a long list but still dont know if that means blueprint 427, FF coyote or Godzilla.

I get the answer is its all about your own preference, but would really appreciate some sage words from you guys if you are able to share.

Thanks and looking forward to this.

Chris

[cdurbin328]

Hi all,

Newb to forum and on list for a 30th anniversary Mk5 even though i have no idea what it comes with yet. Dave just said "It'll be worth the wait".

I am going to build this with my son, and we are all over the place on engines. We want reliability and simplicity, safe to drive while sounding and looking cool. I know thats a long list but still dont know if that means blueprint 427, FF coyote or Godzilla.

I get the answer is its all about your own preference, but would really appreciate some sage words from you guys if you are able to share.

Thanks and looking forward to this.

Chris

Really any V8 you put in these cars is going to be wicked quick due to the fact that it is so light weight. I went with a Gen 2 Coyote in mine and I'm very happy with it. I've put about 1,100 miles on it since completed and have zero issues. It starts up everytime, runs, and sounds awesome.
Just my 2 cents....

[michael everson]

Coyote.
Mike

[edwardb]

Huge Coyote fan here, so that's what you'll get from me. I've done builds with SBF's and prefer the Coyote. Reliable, extremely streetable, but still as wild as you want. And a good value if you compare apples to apples. I know some prefer the more traditional look and sound for a pushrod motor. So there's that. Really early for the Godzilla in these builds so a little depends on your experience level and (maybe) some issues to work through. Have you priced out the changes necessary on both the top and bottom? Otherwise it doesn't fit. The weight alone would also give me pause. But you would be in unique company if you went that way.

[Jeff_J.]

Be prepared for a lot of opinions when it comes to talking about engines. These cars are very light 2,200 - 2,400 lbs. ish, like Chris mentioned above almost any V8 will get the car going in a hurry. The bigger the V8 the more power/torque of course. My two cents is for you to determine what kind of driving you want to do with the car and choose based on that. If you're just cruising around and some road trips then choose based on that, if you're thinking to track the car then there's generally more to the build then just a larger engine. In my opinion when you get over 400 hp in these cars and plan to use it you should know how to drive it cause you can get into trouble very quickly when you least expect it, it certainly isn't even close to the daily driver. That being said the coyote is an all around good choice, new tech and pretty much trouble free, lots of support on the forum for this installation (no small benefit). If you're planning to track the car then there are some pretty qualified guys on the forum to help you there. Then there is always the Iconic 427 badge if that's what your looking for. I hope this helps, I'm sure you'll get lots of input.

[CraigS]

Blueprint 427 all day long. We love the Coyote in my wife's Mustang GT. But I have no interest in an FFR roadster looking like the Mustang when I pop the hood open.

[Jeff Kleiner]

LS.

Hey, somebody had to say it! :D

Jeff

[john42]

My dream engine would be a Prestige Small block 427 with the Jim Inglese Stack EFI. However, my budget would never get me there.

[gbranham]

Just fired up my Boss 427 yesterday and love it!

[rich grsc]

Never a Godzilla

[Aleinsteingenius]

Watching this thread like a hawk.

[cv2065]

Love the 427 but I’d go with the Godzilla since FFR has created a platform for it. The novelty alone is worth the price of admission.

[OB6]

LS.

Hey, somebody had to say it! :D

Jeff

I'll second that, but I'm biased. Seriously though, unless you're stuck with Ford for some reason, the LS platform is ideal. It meets all of your criteria:

"reliability and simplicity, safe to drive while sounding and looking cool"

[BEAR-AvHistory]

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/acurazine.com-vbulletin/850x566/80-mkiv_plate_mod_04b099312d3f47d9108fb15e64accb3deb8 ccd87.jpg

[Jim Frahm]

Here's my 5 cents worth!

SBF 302 with fuel injection carb. Looks authentic and is reliable and simple. Less than $8K
LS 6.0 with factory fuel injection for the best value or you can go with a fuel injection carb for a more authentic look. Also reliable and simple. Less than $10K.
Coyote 5.0 if you want a modern Ford engine and you don't mind the cramp engine bay. $12K to $14K

I'm biased to the LS motors. I'm a first time builder and it took me 20 minutes to install the motor and trans by myself. I helped a local friend install his Coyote and it took about an hour + to install his motor and trans. It's a tight fit but it does fit and it seems to be the most popular choice.

It really comes down to what you want it to look like when you open the hood.

[Mike.Bray]

We want reliability and simplicity, safe to drive while sounding and looking cool.

Realistically any engine today with EFI and electronic ignition is going to give you this. So the question becomes what else are you looking for?

If you want a modern overhead cam engine that's the Coyote. Lots of performance and will outlive the car for a relatively small amount of money. Downsides to a Coyote are size, you need a shoehorn to squeeze it onto a Cobra. Kind of embarrassing to open the hood as they're just fugly. Sound, they lack that throaty rumble at idle and low speeds that you get from a pushrod engine as they kind of purr at idle. But all that aside they are a great, great engine.

If you want period correct looking then you're looking at a pushrod engine. LS6 is a great modern platform but you have to put up with all the crap about it being a Chevy, never mind this car is a replica of a British sports car. SMH SBF have two basic flavors, short deck and tall deck. Short deck is the 302 which can be bored and stroked to 347 or even 363. These are very nice engines for these cars. Tall deck is the 351W which can be bored and stroked to 393, 408, or 427. With EFI these engines start every time, idle, and drive like your wife's grocery getter except for when you step on the loud pedal. You can easily build them to have a nice lopey idle that just screams Cobra.

Coyote

https://www.imagecoast.com/images/MichaelBray1/enginebay.jpg

SBF

https://www.imagecoast.com/images/MichaelBray1/20250301140443mediumrotated.jpg

[edwardb]

For those commenting about the Coyote being tight in a Roadster, remember the OP is asking about a Mk5 Roadster. If anything like the Gen3 Coupe with a very similar space frame, the Coyote and whatever transmission you choose isn't as tight as the traditional tube chassis. Just happen to know that with my Gen 3 Coupe and a Gen 3 Coyote. Doesn't have to be ugly either. This picture is before I put a cover over the PCM which cleaned it up a little more. And for the record, some seem to think they will sound like a Mustang. They don't with long tube headers and side pipes. Many comment about how good mine sounds. Although it doesn't jump and bump at idle. I'm over that.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=120281&d=1578509240

[J R Jones]

OP stated objective is "We want reliability and simplicity, safe to drive ". Siting the obvious, an iconic kit car is lacking a great deal of contemporary "safety".
"reliability and simplicity" suggests sticking to OEM spec parts and assemblies. Modifications compromise both.
Despite your not mentioning "track days" respondents have. Building for the track as it is acknowledged here, compromises street manners, and accept that you will out-speed some of the competitors all the time and all the competitors none of the time.
Complexity drives up cost and increases build time. I would temper ambition and spending through completion. Then having experienced the inevitably startling speed and performance, decide if you need more. BTW this moderate approach make your budget more predictable.
jim

[Jeff Kleiner]

Just FYI, the Coyote is still a tight fit in the Mk5...so much so that after we got the Beta cars some conflicts were discovered which necessitated a change to the production chassis.

Jeff

[PMD24]

The Build School instructors felt pretty strongly that the 347 is the ideal engine for these cars. Not sure if they would apply that to the MK5 as well

[edwardb]

Just FYI, the Coyote is still a tight fit in the Mk5...so much so that after we got the Beta cars some conflicts were discovered which necessitated a change to the production chassis.

Jeff

Good to know. Thanks. I assume that will be sorted out for the production versions. :rolleyes:

[bobl]

Some thoughts on engine selection.
First you need to make a decision of what your goal is and what kind of budget are you working with. There aren’t really any bad choices as long as you use a good builder. How much HP is enough for you and your son? How knowledgeable are you about engines, mechanicals and electrical? No engines are just plug and play. The simplest is probably a carbureted 302 and will get you around 300 HP dependably. I think the Godzilla will be the most complex because no one has experience with them, so there will certainly be challenges. There are a lot of Coyote builds out there so the knowledge base is there. That would get you into the 450-500 HP range and be very dependable once you get everything rigged correctly and tuned for your application. Then there are crate engines like Blueprint sells. You will need some mechanical skills with any of them. They are built conservatively, so they are not as robust as a custom built engine might be. They generally use less expensive parts in their builds (trying to be politically correct here), so you kind of get what you pay for. Lastly you can have a custom engine built (by a reputable shop) to your specs and power requirements. The sky’s the limit (and your wallet) in this arena. It’s easy to get wrapped up in the HP wars, but you’ll probably never be able to use a bunch of power.
Bottom line: If you want good power and not have to be tweaking things, go with a Coyote. If you like the old school look and sound of a Cobra and enjoy messing with things a pushrod engine might be the choice to make at whatever power level you want.
Anyway, keep asking questions. There are some very smart people on this forum.

Bob

[BRRT]

LS.

Hey, somebody had to say it! :D

Jeff

Mr. Kleiner is spot on here. The size of a low-deck Ford Windsor (302, 347, 363), power and reliability of a Coyote. Arguably better aftermarket support than a Coyote. The aluminum block versions weigh a bit over 400 pounds with 6.2 liters (378ci) of displacement. The LS3 (aluminum block and heads) version has 430HP in factory trim, you can add an easy 100HP by simply swapping a SINGLE cam. The downside: you are somewhat blazing your own trail with the install. Not too many of us have done it, so there is some head scratching to do. It is supported by FFR, with mounts, headers, and instructions. At least it is becoming more popular. Some will argue that resale value is diminished. Hard to say one way or the other.

[SteveHsr]

LS, much better overall choice. Superior power, weight , size and high performance durability.

[BEAR-AvHistory]

For all the goodness of the LS, I have built quite a few, GM is running their version of the COYOTE in the C8. The future of ICE is DOHC's.

[cdurbin328]

For those commenting about the Coyote being tight in a Roadster, remember the OP is asking about a Mk5 Roadster. If anything like the Gen3 Coupe with a very similar space frame, the Coyote and whatever transmission you choose isn't as tight as the traditional tube chassis. Just happen to know that with my Gen 3 Coupe and a Gen 3 Coyote. Doesn't have to be ugly either. This picture is before I put a cover over the PCM which cleaned it up a little more. And for the record, some seem to think they will sound like a Mustang. They don't with long tube headers and side pipes. Many comment about how good mine sounds. Although it doesn't jump and bump at idle. I'm over that.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=120281&d=1578509240


Totally agree. You can make a Coyote look pretty nice under the hood.

211547

[Jeff Kleiner]

Totally agree. You can make a Coyote look pretty nice under the hood.



Yes you can! Here's one that I did a few years ago.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=211548&d=1692962480

Cheers,
Jeff

211548

[Presdough]

I went with a Badass Racing 408W. If I had it to do over I would probably go with a little less than 550 HP. It's sideways a LOT!

[GoDadGo]

Here Is Total Dark Side Sacrilege But You'd Have To Act Fast!

New Old Stock: ZL1 Aluminum 454Crate Engine

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/engine-90/

Article From Motortrend: December 1,2003

https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/sucp-0312-zl1-chevy-big-block/

[Avalanche325]

LS.

Hey, somebody had to say it! :D

Jeff

You forgot to wear your respirator again.

[rponfick]

I am old and definitely old school. Therefore, a Blueprint 347", carbed, is on order for my Mk5 due any day now.
Let the debate continue.
Ralph

[Avalanche325]

If you like old school, a 347 is a great engine. You can go SBF 427 if you need the number.
Coyote is a great choice for more modern.
LS is a great engine. However, it will ding the resale value and salability.
Any of those can get you 500hp.

You want safe? That is up to the driver. When you and your son finish the car, do a full season of autocross. That way you will learn how to really drive it hard in a safe environment. That would be an awesome father / son thing to do.

[OB6]

LS is a great engine. However, it will ding the resale value and salability.


I agree with this 100%, but I'll be interested to see how much this holds true in the future as it becomes less about staying true to the original (e.g. the new MK5 chassis) and more about creating a hot-rod that looks like a Cobra.

[rich grsc]

Cobra’s and hot rods are not the same thing

[OB6]

Cobra’s and hot rods are not the same thing

Semantics... "hot rods", not the traditional "Hot Rods" based on 20's and 30's cars. But I digress... my point was that these kits increasingly seem to be blank slates for what suits the builder, and because of that, I think resale value could become less of a function of the engine. Just my opinion. Didn't we just see a really nice one with a Honda 4-banger?

[edwardb]

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=211612&d=1742269744

[cdurbin328]

I have nothing against an LS but I'm a purist in regards to putting a Ford motor in a Ford vehicle. If I was building a GM or Chevy then I would most definitely go LS swap.
Resale will depend on the right buyer. For me personally, if I see a cobra for sale with a chevy motor I immediately lose interest. That's just me though.
Everyone has their own tastes and budget so I try to always respect the build.

[OB6]

But these aren't Fords. They're Factory Fives. :)

[Jeff Kleiner]

But these aren't Fords. They're Factory Fives. :)

Precisely! But now you’ve just applying logic ;) :)

Jeff

[cdurbin328]

But these aren't Fords. They're Factory Fives. :)


True but I've always equated Shelby with Ford :)

[OB6]

True but I've always equated Shelby with Ford :)

But they're not Shelbys either. Sorry, couldn't resist.

All in fun.

[Jeff Kleiner]

But they're not Shelbys either…
.

Once again, precisely!

Hey Paul, pass that bucket of popcorn over here :D

Jeff

[Mike.Bray]

Yes you can! Here's one that I did a few years ago.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=211548&d=1692962480

Cheers,
Jeff

211548

As my grandmother would say, that's a lot of lipstick on that pig! :D

[Mike.Bray]

But these aren't Fords. They're Factory Fives. :)

Exactly!! A replica of a British sports car that had a Bristol engine.

If you want to be a purest you can only use a Ford 260, 289, or 427 FE in a Cobra.

[cdurbin328]

Ok Ok.. I give up... lol

[GoDadGo]

There are so many great options out there that building the perfect roadster is easier than ever.
What engine you end up with will be perfect for you.
It is that simple so good luck.

[OB6]

Ok Ok.. I give up... lol

LOL - thanks for letting us play. Some of these conversations have turned into a sport.

[cdurbin328]

LOL - thanks for letting us play. Some of these conversations have turned into a sport.

All good brother. Life is too short to sweat the small stuff.

[Avalanche325]

Precisely! But now you’ve just applying logic ;) :)

Jeff

You can hardly apply logic to a Cobra.

[Avalanche325]

Exactly!! A replica of a British sports car that had a Bristol engine.

If you want to be a purest you can only use a Ford 260, 289, or 427 FE in a Cobra.

Most of the "427"s had 428s.

[bobl]

Well, if you buy a higher end crate or custom engine, there is probably not a Ford part on it! It just resembles a SBF or whatever. Go Dad, your dark side Chevy, is just a replica of a SBC that you built right? All aftermarket parts. Round and round we go!

Bob

[kevin j sullivan]

Easiest and probably most cost effective is to drop the Coyote in. If you want that nasty ch-chug,ch-chug idle sound like an original, go with Godzilla, you will have to spend $$$ on Cam/Crank etc. upgrades as it has very low torque out of the box. If you're old school and want a carburetor- go with the windsor motor and modify it to a 427. I have a stroked windsor putting out 610 HP. Love it, wouldn't change a thing. (Rather have too much power than too little!)

[kevin j sullivan]

Of course they are when it comes to motors. Both can utilize highly modify motors.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Most of the "427"s had 428s.

But when you do the math an FE 427 actually displaces 425 and some change and the FE 428 is actually just barely over 426. So there’s that :p

Jeff

[cv2065]

Superformance dropped one of these in at SEMA. Me Likey!! :cool:

https://hosting.photobucket.com/239a0216-6f9e-4cc9-a0be-2ec53fb3e15d/27050b1d-d205-4153-810d-0f2f21a82747.png?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds (https://hosting.photobucket.com/239a0216-6f9e-4cc9-a0be-2ec53fb3e15d/27050b1d-d205-4153-810d-0f2f21a82747.png?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds)

[BEAR-AvHistory]

Easiest and probably most cost effective is to drop the Coyote in. If you want that nasty ch-chug,ch-chug idle sound like an original, go with Godzilla, you will have to spend $$$ on Cam/Crank etc. upgrades as it has very low torque out of the box. If you're old school and want a carburetor- go with the windsor motor and modify it to a 427. I have a stroked windsor putting out 610 HP. Love it, wouldn't change a thing. (Rather have too much power than too little!)

A hand held tuner can load a chug, chug cam lope (Ghost Cam) into a COYOTE for Car & Coffee or show days. They are not great for drivability but the sound is. When done just reload your regular tune.

[StangRacer]

Well, if you buy a higher end crate or custom engine, there is probably not a Ford part on it! It just resembles a SBF or whatever. Go Dad, your dark side Chevy, is just a replica of a SBC that you built right? All aftermarket parts. Round and round we go!

Bob

The LS actually has more in common with a SBF than it does with a SBC... LS heads will actually bolt on a SBF.

[StangRacer]

Easiest and probably most cost effective is to drop the Coyote in. If you want that nasty ch-chug,ch-chug idle sound like an original, go with Godzilla, you will have to spend $$$ on Cam/Crank etc. upgrades as it has very low torque out of the box. If you're old school and want a carburetor- go with the windsor motor and modify it to a 427. I have a stroked windsor putting out 610 HP. Love it, wouldn't change a thing. (Rather have too much power than too little!)

Brian Wolfe, former director of Ford Racing, has been doing some amazing things with the new 7.3. Check this out:

https://www.enginelabs.com/news/junkyard-7-3l-godzilla-makes-627hp-for-less-than-4000-all-in/

If you want to see a wild Coyote engine check out Carlos Sobrino... https://www.youtube.com/shorts/22-wQwoCfTY

[bobl]

The LS actually has more in common with a SBF than it does with a SBC... LS heads will actually bolt on a SBF.

I saw where someone was installing LS heads on SBF. Not seen any results. I'm not sure even why you'd want to, other than just because you can. A set of high end Windsor CNC heads will make as much power. A couple of years ago I dyno'd and tuned an 434 CI LS NXT (regular SBC block) with AFR Mongoose LS heads at just under 650 HP, I also did a 434 aluminum SBF with smaller Afr 205 heads and a much milder cam and it made over 600. I also just built a BOSS 302 for a Vintage Mustang race car. It made 550 Hp at 7500 rpm, with ported cleveland cast iron heads. Back to my point neither the Chevy or the Ford use a single OE part. Even the Boss 302 only used the Ford heads, everything else was aftermarket.

Bob

[StangRacer]

I saw where someone was installing LS heads on SBF. Not seen any results. I'm not sure even why you'd want to, other than just because you can. A set of high end Windsor CNC heads will make as much power. A couple of years ago I dyno'd and tuned an 434 CI LS NXT (regular SBC block) with AFR Mongoose LS heads at just under 650 HP, I also did a 434 aluminum SBF with smaller Afr 205 heads and a much milder cam and it made over 600. I also just built a BOSS 302 for a Vintage Mustang race car. It made 550 Hp at 7500 rpm, with ported cleveland cast iron heads. Back to my point neither the Chevy or the Ford use a single OE part. Even the Boss 302 only used the Ford heads, everything else was aftermarket.

Bob

I never saw the results of putting the LS heads on a SBF either... It was several years ago when I last followed the project, and the fella was having issues fitting an intake manifold. I have no idea if the project was ever completed...

[Mike.Bray]

Well, if you buy a higher end crate or custom engine, there is probably not a Ford part on it! It just resembles a SBF or whatever.

A replica engine, that's an interesting thought. I looked back at my engine build and my valve covers, plug wires, and breathers are from Ford. That's it.

[Jim1855]

Peter Brock thought that his SPF Brock Coupe (Daytona) was a "hot rod" and indicated so to a friend when a LS7 was installed.
Do as you please, call it what you want, enjoy, smile and drive it.
Jim

[Avalanche325]

But when you do the math an FE 427 actually displaces 425 and some change and the FE 428 is actually just barely over 426. So there’s that :p

Jeff

I always found engine numbers that don't match the engine numbers to be a head scratcher.

[Jeff Kleiner]

I always found engine numbers that don't match the engine numbers to be a head scratcher.

Well, here's the deal; it all comes down to marketing. When Ford introduced the "427" FE in 1963 Chrysler/Dodge/Plymouth already had their 426 Wedge (not the Hemi). Surely Ford couldn't refer to their new engine as a 425 or 426 so they went with 427. By the time the "428" FE was brought to market Chevrolet had their 427 big block so once again they couldn't simply call it a 427, even though that's what it was. The 427 actually displaced 425.7 cubic inches and the 428 was in reality 426.3. (Chrysler's 426 and Chevy's 427 were both actually 425.6) Remember in the movie Spinal Tap when the amplifier knob went to 11 "because it's one more"? It's kind of like that :D

Jeff

[Mike.Bray]

Well, here's the deal; it all comes down to marketing. When Ford introduced the "427" FE in 1963 Chrysler/Dodge/Plymouth already had their 426 Wedge (not the Hemi). Surely Ford couldn't refer to their new engine as a 425 or 426 so they went with 427. By the time the "428" FE was brought to market Chevrolet had their 427 big block so once again they couldn't simply call it a 427, even though that's what it was. The 427 actually displaced 425.7 cubic inches and the 428 was in reality 426.3. (Chrysler's 426 and Chevy's 427 were both actually 425.6) Remember in the movie Spinal Tap when the amplifier knob went to 11 "because it's one more"? It's kind of like that :D

Jeff

So what size was a 427 Cammer?

[GoDadGo]

Hummmm, What About The SB4 7.0 From Mercury Racing?
The engine has been around for quite some time & is amazing.
It is a LS based Marine Engine that Mercury also sell for cars.

https://www.mercuryracing.com/content/dam/mercury-racing/engines/automotive/Mercury-Racing-SB4-Automotive-Crate-Engine-Catalog.pdf

https://youtu.be/Tajqa6T5Dw0

https://www.motortrend.com/features/mercury-racing-sb4-resto-mod-crate-engine-first-drive/

[JimStone]

Hummmm, What About The SB4 7.0 From Mercury Racing?
The engine has been around for quite some time & is amazing.
It is a LS based Marine Engine that Mercury also sell for cars.

https://www.mercuryracing.com/content/dam/mercury-racing/engines/automotive/Mercury-Racing-SB4-Automotive-Crate-Engine-Catalog.pdf

https://youtu.be/Tajqa6T5Dw0

https://www.motortrend.com/features/mercury-racing-sb4-resto-mod-crate-engine-first-drive/

Good Lord that engine sounds nasty!

Boat motor though

[GoDadGo]

Boat motor though

Or Is It?

https://youtu.be/wOb-MLCrzbg

https://youtu.be/ao60xGzFE1g

[Valkster]

Chris, cool to do a build with your son...that is what I am doing now. We are hopefully not too far off with our MK4 completion (mostly only paint and body left to do). I actually wanted to do an EV build (I know, boo and hisssss). I would have gone with a Coyote or LS if the EV wasn't practical but knew I had an old school engine as an option from my dad. In the end, I asked my son, Lucas, which direction he wanted to go. To my surprise, he wanted an old school engine, but reliable running. He wanted something close to period, but modernized like the car is. In my case, my dad had an old T-bird with a 428FE that he gave us. Add an Edelbrock Proflo4 port EFI and some modern heads and valvetrain, and we are done! It has been a great build with him, and while not always smooth due to our age difference, I think we have learned from each other. I've been so proud of what he has learned on this project. The pic shows Lucas helping me install the FE.

-Mark

211673

[Etraugott]

Lots of factors to consider.

1st, is this a keep it forever car or is there a possibility it may be sold in the future?
I'm going LS personally. Some say it will lower the cars value, but I say it will just reduce the number of interested buyers. I actually think built cost vs sale price could net more if budgeted accordingly.
A Coyote or 427 build will peak more buyer's interest.

2nd is mechanical ability.
Some may require more custom fab/wiring than others. Carb is easier than fuel injection to set up in general. I feel fuel injection in superior in many ways though.

3rd is cost.
Be realistic with your budget. Many run low on funds and loose interest. My car is pretty much a new build other than motor and trans, they are donors.
Most don't put enough miles on them anyway to justify needing new. On a budget project I always suggest making a wish list, putting a price on the parts and add it up. If its an open check book just call a vendor like Forte and order a drop in package.

4th is economy/fuel milage.
this is usually low on the list for most but if you plan to put a lot of miles on it this may be a factor to add into the equation.

If your torn between several engines you could also make a pro/con list for each of your candidates to compare them.


"It's easy for us to spend your money based on our opinion." Eric Traugott

[Blitzboy54]

First one was a 306 SBF. It was awesome!

Second one is a Coyote. It is awesome!

Third one ......

[Mike.Bray]

Carb is easier than fuel injection to set up in general.

Maybe in the past.

https://www.imagecoast.com/images/MichaelBray1/458267311511184114829469823322515637707691n.jpg

And, can't resist...

https://www.imagecoast.com/images/MichaelBray1/fbimg1718707686265.jpg

[gbranham]

For those that say carbs are easier to set up than fuel injection probably haven't experienced any of the new aftermarket EFI systems. My ProFlo4 (thanks Mike Bray) was super simple to set up. The software is an app on my phone, amd it connects via Bluetooth. All I had to tell it was my engine displacement, cam specs and firing order. Oh, and my intended fuel pressure. It loaded a base tune, and it fired right up first time. I was go-karting 10 minutes later. So simple.

[Mike.Bray]

How carb guys see EFI

https://www.imagecoast.com/images/MichaelBray1/efiwiring_2.jpg

[MaxVmo]

So many options is a great problem to have! I’ve done a couple of go-carts in my neighborhood now and darn it there’s no way I’m getting past idle in third gear!

[Mike.Bray]

For those that say carbs are easier to set up than fuel injection probably haven't experienced any of the new aftermarket EFI systems. My ProFlo4 (thanks Mike Bray) was super simple to set up. The software is an app on my phone, amd it connects via Bluetooth. All I had to tell it was my engine displacement, cam specs and firing order. Oh, and my intended fuel pressure. It loaded a base tune, and it fired right up first time. I was go-karting 10 minutes later. So simple.

And being sequential injection is a huge advantage over a throttle body system like a Sniper. And you've also got timing control for an added bonus.

[cv2065]

Definitely agree that the EFI systems are more efficient than a carb when setup properly, especially if you have different elevations. I've added a return line to my fuel system in case I ever want to switch. The issue I have is that the EFI systems stabilize the idle, removing some of the rumpety rump that I enjoy. As Mike points out, some of the systems have timing control that could be turned off to get a better idle sound and drivability, but that's kind of defeating the purpose of the investment. Here's a good article on it.

https://www.onallcylinders.com/2015/05/01/ask-away-how-electronic-fuel-injection-efi-affects-cam-idle-hint-you-may-not-like-it/

[gbranham]

Is this not rumpety rump? :)

https://youtube.com/shorts/YF9snZL01ZE?si=jHUgpx7nRG6R-jRB

[cv2065]

Is this not rumpety rump? :)

https://youtube.com/shorts/YF9snZL01ZE?si=jHUgpx7nRG6R-jRB

Sounds great Greg! EFI is more rhythmic and controlled where a carb is more random, if that makes sense. It’s almost like EFI has one drummer playing at one interval and a carb has multiple drummers playing at different intervals. I’m no pro but I thought the article explains it pretty good. I’m more audible than technical. :p

[gbranham]

Sounds great Greg! EFI is more rhythmic and controlled where a carb is more random, if that makes sense. It’s almost like EFI has one drummer playing at one interval and a carb has multiple drummers playing at different intervals. I’m no pro but I thought the article explains it pretty good. I’m more audible than technical. :p

I'm just teasing you...I know what you're talking about. That's a great article, too!

[cv2065]

I'm just teasing you...I know what you're talking about. That's a great article, too!

LOL. I'm picking up what you are putting down. :cool:

[Mike.Bray]

The issue I have is that the EFI systems stabilize the idle, removing some of the rumpety rump that I enjoy.

I'm not sure I agree with this. The only thing a carburetor can do at idle that fuel injection can't is puddle excess fuel in the intake manifold and screw up the idle. I'm running this cam (https://www.compcams.com/xfi-computer-controlled-236-248-hydraulic-roller-cam-for-ford-351w.html) and at 750 RPM it's lopey enough to shake the car but fuel and spark are precisely controlled.


https://youtu.be/Q_5fTdGFakQ

I'm running 12 degrees advance at idle and AFR of 13:1 and it will "rumpety rump" nicely all day long.

https://www.imagecoast.com/images/MichaelBray1/sparklandscapegraph.jpg

[cv2065]

I'm running 12 degrees advance at idle and AFR of 13:1 and it will "rumpety rump" nicely all day long.

I'm not saying that you don't get one, it's just more of a controlled sound to my ears. This passage from the article speaks to it. Again, I'm not a pro tuner by any means and everyone is different as to what trade offs they prefer. I'm sure one day I'll upgrade to EFI which is why I built in the choice. But for now....:p

"The reality is that there are massive pressure waves bouncing around inside the manifold while the engine is running—made worse with a cam with lots of overlap. The carburetor “sees” these pressure changes which is another reason why the idle is unstable. With EFI, the huge swings in manifold pressure (or vacuum, if you will) will also be damped with a MAP sensor to make it easier for the computer to make a decision about how much fuel to deliver to the engine. This helps to calm the idle, making it more stable."

[Mike.Bray]

I'm not saying that you don't get one, it's just more of a controlled sound to my ears. This passage from the article speaks to it. Again, I'm not a pro tuner by any means and everyone is different as to what trade offs they prefer. I'm sure one day I'll upgrade to EFI which is why I built in the choice. But for now....:p

"The reality is that there are massive pressure waves bouncing around inside the manifold while the engine is running—made worse with a cam with lots of overlap. The carburetor “sees” these pressure changes which is another reason why the idle is unstable. With EFI, the huge swings in manifold pressure (or vacuum, if you will) will also be damped with a MAP sensor to make it easier for the computer to make a decision about how much fuel to deliver to the engine. This helps to calm the idle, making it more stable."

I really think we're talking about two different things here. The "rumpety rump" you like (we all like) is from reversion caused by when the incoming air columns are disturbed by pulse waves sent back into the intake manifold from the cylinders because the valves are opening and closing with wrong timing to the piston movement. Overlap from cam duration and lobe separation angle (LSA) is what causes this.

An engine can also "rumpety rump" at idle when it's not properly tuned, that is it's running rough or crappy as I call it. If the carb isn't properly tuned, refer to my pyramid of intellect, and/or the tiny idle circuits are getting gunked up from ethanol residue you will have a rough running engine at idle that sounds "rumpety rump". Of course changing to EFI with it's precise control of fuel and spark as well as high pressure fuel injection will make the engine run as it should be running. Fix the tune, remove the "rumety rump".

All is not lost though. Playing around with the LSA can restore the "rumpety rump" is you like but not without a cost.

A low LSA like 106 or 108 degrees will:
Move Torque to Lower RPM (which isn't bad for a street engine)
Increase Maximum Torque
Narrows the Power band
Increase Chance of Engine Knock
Idle Vacuum is Reduced
Idle Quality Suffers
Open Valve-Overlap Increases
Closed Valve-Overlap Increases

A high LSA like 112-114 degrees will:
Raise Torque to Higher RPM
Reduces Maximum Torque
Broadens Power Band
Decrease Chance of Engine Knock
Decrease Effective Compression
Idle Vacuum is Increased
Idle Quality Improves
Open Valve-Overlap Decreases
Closed Valve-Overlap Decreases

I'm running 114 degrees LSA since I'm running stacks on an IR intake. IR intakes do not like reversion at all and it really kills power and efficiency. My system is from Borla so it's not a true IR intake, there's a good size plenum under it that each runner is ported to. This plenum is for the MAP signal and also helps calm the system for better street drivability. In the old days we didn't have this so a MAP signal was too erratic and we had to run in Alpha-N mode instead of Speed Density mode.

As you saw in the video, even with my quasi-IR intake system, EFI, and 114 degree LSA cam I still have an impressive "rumpety rump" at idle.

[cv2065]

As you saw in the video, even with my quasi-IR intake system, EFI, and 114 degree LSA cam I still have an impressive "rumpety rump" at idle.

Agreed! Stacks are always awesome too!

[GoDadGo]

Back In The Day Mercury Was A Ford Product (Not Marine Propulsion Company) But Who Really Cares So Once Again Check Out This A Mercury SB4 7.0.

This one is in a Superformance which does produce some very interesting cars.

https://youtu.be/TDt6SKlENbY

[Ford & Jeep Fan]

351C as in 351 Cleveland. Can be stroked to 393 or even 408 with the stock block. take the same engine mounts and trans pattern as any other 302
These were What pushed Bill Elliot around the race tracks to record wins.

[bobl]

I really think we're talking about two different things here. The "rumpety rump" you like (we all like) is from reversion caused by when the incoming air columns are disturbed by pulse waves sent back into the intake manifold from the cylinders because the valves are opening and closing with wrong timing to the piston movement. Overlap from cam duration and lobe separation angle (LSA) is what causes this.

An engine can also "rumpety rump" at idle when it's not properly tuned, that is it's running rough or crappy as I call it. If the carb isn't properly tuned, refer to my pyramid of intellect, and/or the tiny idle circuits are getting gunked up from ethanol residue you will have a rough running engine at idle that sounds "rumpety rump". Of course changing to EFI with it's precise control of fuel and spark as well as high pressure fuel injection will make the engine run as it should be running. Fix the tune, remove the "rumety rump".

All is not lost though. Playing around with the LSA can restore the "rumpety rump" is you like but not without a cost.

A low LSA like 106 or 108 degrees will:
Move Torque to Lower RPM (which isn't bad for a street engine)
Increase Maximum Torque
Narrows the Power band
Increase Chance of Engine Knock
Idle Vacuum is Reduced
Idle Quality Suffers
Open Valve-Overlap Increases
Closed Valve-Overlap Increases

A high LSA like 112-114 degrees will:
Raise Torque to Higher RPM
Reduces Maximum Torque
Broadens Power Band
Decrease Chance of Engine Knock
Decrease Effective Compression
Idle Vacuum is Increased
Idle Quality Improves
Open Valve-Overlap Decreases
Closed Valve-Overlap Decreases

I'm running 114 degrees LSA since I'm running stacks on an IR intake. IR intakes do not like reversion at all and it really kills power and efficiency. My system is from Borla so it's not a true IR intake, there's a good size plenum under it that each runner is ported to. This plenum is for the MAP signal and also helps calm the system for better street drivability. In the old days we didn't have this so a MAP signal was too erratic and we had to run in Alpha-N mode instead of Speed Density mode.

As you saw in the video, even with my quasi-IR intake system, EFI, and 114 degree LSA cam I still have an impressive "rumpety rump" at idle.

Nice explanation Mike. To say this in a different way, EFI requires a wider LSA to keep the MAP sensor happy which is why efi engines idle smoother. You take a cam ground on a 106 lsa that idles raunchy, switch to the exact same cam ground on 114-116 lsa and it will idle pretty smooth.

Bob

[Mike.Bray]

Nice explanation Mike. To say this in a different way, EFI requires a wider LSA to keep the MAP sensor happy which is why efi engines idle smoother. You take a cam ground on a 106 lsa that idles raunchy, switch to the exact same cam ground on 114-116 lsa and it will idle pretty smooth.

Bob

You are correct! An "EFI cam" will almost have an LSA of 112-114 degrees.

[Mike.Bray]

I saw a friend of mine today that used to be the field rep for Fast EFI and talked to him about this article which he was familiar with. He had some interesting comments.

First thing he said was "All EFI does is fix the poor idle tuning of carburetion which makes carbureted cars idle like crap." He also added "There is a point to be made that efi does tame some of the lope... but it is lope caused by tuning inefficiency. Poor AF mixture.... wrong or erratic timing."

So nothing we haven't already said. But, he added that with EFI w/timing control you can dial in a split in timing in your idle cells and can induce more of a lope without screwing up the A/F ratio.

[GoDadGo]

How About This Little Engine That Only Makes 1,000 NA-HP and 876 LBS Torque?
I'm sure you could make it fit under a Super Snake Style Hood with a low profile air cleaner.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/nal-19432060?seid=srese1&ppckw=pmax-crate-engines&gclid=Cj0KCQjwv_m-BhC4ARIsAIqNeBsl74xU861qPWd5uGXe8DaXmvoXSxNtMiB9GH UvM6xupzEo6dN1sOsaAoK-EALw_wcB

Though this is technically BBC, since it has no distributor most folks won't know what it is.
You could stick a Blue Oval over the Bowtie Emblem on the intake and all would be right with the world.

Hummmmmmmm!!!!!!

[rich grsc]

Lipstick on a pig

[Mike.Bray]

How About This Little Engine That Only Makes 1,000 NA-HP and 876 LBS Torque?
I'm sure you could make it fit under a Super Snake Style Hood with a low profile air cleaner.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/nal-19432060?seid=srese1&ppckw=pmax-crate-engines&gclid=Cj0KCQjwv_m-BhC4ARIsAIqNeBsl74xU861qPWd5uGXe8DaXmvoXSxNtMiB9GH UvM6xupzEo6dN1sOsaAoK-EALw_wcB

Though this is technically BBC, since it has no distributor most folks won't know what it is.
You could stick a Blue Oval over the Bowtie Emblem on the intake and all would be right with the world.

Hummmmmmmm!!!!!!

I've seen one in person, they are HUGE and TALL! I have serious doubts you could squeeze one in a Cobra.

I would dearly love to have one, but not in a Cobra. My little 550 HP SBF is plenty.

[CW_MI]

I actually like threads like these. It brings in so many different opinions, all garnished from our individual past experiences. Sure, they are subjective, but for those that might not be as automotive savvy as others, it gives them things to think about an research. It even brings to light new things for us that have been around performance vehicles all our lives.

That being said. I just want something that sounds like this, it is music to my ears...Lol

https://youtube.com/shorts/chS4pr1AkWE?si=oy-QtzJD6dLNhLIL


https://youtube.com/shorts/chS4pr1AkWE?si=oy-QtzJD6dLNhLIL

[Ted G]

Partial to my naturally aspirated 427w. If you love tinkering and raw power with good reliability, this is for you.

211876 211877

211878 211879


211880

[Aleinsteingenius]

I put in my order today for a complete MKV kit. Going with a Godzilla engine. Stay tuned.

[Mike.Bray]

I put in my order today for a complete MKV kit. Going with a Godzilla engine. Stay tuned.

That sounds exciting. I did some design work for a Godzilla squeezed into a reproduction 68 Mustang, I can't imagine that big heavy beast shoehorned into a Cobra. I'll be following.

[Guardm16]

My dream engine would be a Prestige Small block 427 with the Jim Inglese Stack EFI. However, my budget would never get me there.
211910
I love my Prestige 427. With the Sniper 2 EFI, it started on the first hit. Would have gone with stacks but; Budget and setup.
211911

[Derald Rice]

There is a Godzilla FFR that shows up at our C&C in northern CO.

[Derald Rice]

Duplicate

[AC Bill]

Not very common any longer, but I don't regret, and have always enjoyed immensely, having an old school 5.0 donor engine.

[Nickjj]

I wanted the engine to look a little more traditional with the Cobra tin and the reliability of fuel injection with the Holley Sniper 2 and Hyperspark Distributer. 347 Stroker dynoed at over 400HP which is more than I would need for my driving ability. Also provided lots of room in the engine bay in the MK4.

212061

[john42]

I wanted the engine to look a little more traditional with the Cobra tin and the reliability of fuel injection with the Holley Sniper 2 and Hyperspark Distributer. 347 Stroker dynoed at over 400HP which is more than I would need for my driving ability. Also provided lots of room in the engine bay in the MK4.

212061

I have a Ford Racing 347 with Sniper 2/Hyperspark. We found on the dyno that, that air cleaner element was chocking the air at higher RPM. Swapped for a K&N 3inch tall version and remedied that. It was hard to dial in the AFR any thing over 4500 RPM with that small air filter.

The one I got: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/KNN-E-1963

[Mike.Bray]

I wanted the engine to look a little more traditional with the Cobra tin and the reliability of fuel injection with the Holley Sniper 2 and Hyperspark Distributer. 347 Stroker dynoed at over 400HP which is more than I would need for my driving ability. Also provided lots of room in the engine bay in the MK4.

212061

That's a sweet setup for a MKIV.

[Nickjj]

I have a Ford Racing 347 with Sniper 2/Hyperspark. We found on the dyno that, that air cleaner element was chocking the air at higher RPM. Swapped for a K&N 3inch tall version and remedied that. It was hard to dial in the AFR any thing over 4500 RPM with that small air filter.

The one I got: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/KNN-E-1963

Thanks John, Well aware of the tiny filter element and the issues it causes. Did you have any clearance issue when the hood is on with the taller filter? I will be getting the one you recommended.

[rponfick]

See the recent Shoutout to Blueprint.
Ralph

[Takis31gk]

We are going with a Gen 3 Coyote in my MK5 build. 212277212276212278 212279

[Guardm16]

I wanted the engine to look a little more traditional with the Cobra tin and the reliability of fuel injection with the Holley Sniper 2 and Hyperspark Distributer. 347 Stroker dynoed at over 400HP which is more than I would need for my driving ability. Also provided lots of room in the engine bay in the MK4.

212061

For those of you who have not tried the Hyperspark Distributor, Hyperspark ignition and Sniper 2. This is truly Plug and Play. The guide cap install tool for the distributor, sets the timing for you. The ignition controls the timing from there. So easy a caveman could do it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JpHlS1ymBc&pp=0gcJCdgAo7VqN5tD