Hood opening how far off center typically?

[Valkster]

Hi, I tried to find body center after work yesterday and today. I have marked body center at the oil cooler opening, the front of the cockpit, rear of the cockpit centered between the two roll bars, and the center of the license plate bracket. I used a self-leveling laser level on top of a ladder to place a line across the entire body. I have done this three times now and I can get my laser to fall well within an +-1/8" between all points except at the license plate bracket, which is more like 3/16". I think I have found a nice "average" for the center line to be across the body. However, when I place a center mark on the hood (where the laser line is), just forward of where the front edge of the hood scoop will be, I am getting almost 1" difference from that center mark and the hood opening in the body on the PS and DS. I understand and have read lots of posts that the hood opening is off, but none that I found stated how far off it typically is (or I overlooked that amount in the posts). Is this 1" normal? I can go back and remark all of my initial landmarks if this seems wrong, but the line seemed to fall nicely across all of the landmarks. I am trying to get the scoop installed correctly so it looks correct with stripes on the car. Thanks for any insight.

[Jeff Kleiner]

You're making waaaay too much of this! Put away the lasers and fancy measuring tools and go old school by getting yourself a piece of string. With the body on and the hood and trunk lid installed, adjusted and their gaps set put the license plate lamp on and mark it's center where it meets the trunk lid. Measure between the headlights and mark that center (It'll be 17 7/8" ;)). Now, pull a string all the way between those two points---front to rear and through the cockpit opening. That's your center line. Your mantra needs to be "It has to LOOK right, not BE right." If you start measuring you'll make yourself crazy :rolleyes:

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=206388&d=1726846214

Once the centerline is determined I make reference marks so that I can come back to the same points with the body off; an 1/8" hole on the trunk lid's license plate light pad (gets covered by the lamp), at the front of the trunk opening on the flange (gets covered by the trunk seal) at the front and rear flanges of the hood opening (get covered either by one of the rubber bumpers or "D" seal weatherstrip. I put one at the very front where the lip of the radiator opening turns under. Measure off of the two inside holes for the rollbars and make note so that you can get back to where you were. Once the stripe color is laid down the center---yes I do that first---you lay the hood and trunk lid into their openings and equalize their gaps all the way around then pull the string front to rear, checking to be sure that it is hitting your reference holes. You now have restored your centerline to begin laying out from. Easy peasy!

Here's the string back on center with the hood and trunk in place:

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=188291&d=1691160591

And the stripe lines established:

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=188292&d=1691160619

Finally all masked:

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=188293&d=1691160643

One other thing; while doing the mockup prior to breaking it all down use this centerline to place the hood scoop...hopefully you haven't already tried to locate it by putting it in the center of the hood because the center of the hood is NOT on the centerline of the car.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=206389&d=1726846271


Hope that helps. It's easier to do it than it is to sit here and type out how to do it!

Jeff

[Valkster]

Thanks very much for that information, Jeff. Part of that I have saved from prior research. I especially appreciate the tricks for marking the body discretely for finding center during painting. I had some concerns about making a mistake while masking off the stripes later.

Sorry, I did not post the whole story as I sometimes ramble. I did start with string, but after I found the hood to be way off, I tried with the laser. So, you simply go point to point between two landmarks (except from the license plate mount to the trunk handle ;) ).

Just for my piece of mind, is the hood that far off center in your experience?? I can tell in a few of your photos that the hood is visibly off center, at least in the "sanded filler" pics...but I cannot tell if it is as bad as mine. I was fine if it is that far off because I do not see it in finished photos of these cars, but I wanted to make sure I hadn't done something wrong. I will go back, though, and remove the initial landmarks and go simply by the headlight center and license plate light center. I did just run out to the shop and checked, and sure enough the minimum distance between the headlight openings is 35-3/4"...which gives your 17-7/8" centerline dimension. My laser was within a 1/16" or that mark, lol.

Thanks!

[Valkster]

Hey, by the way, Jeff. I am studying the pictures you posted above. In addition to the question about the hood opening being normal with a 1" offset, would you mind explaining the method you use for the scoop cutout? I have read some older posts from you about it, but they were missing pictures and dimensions of the cutout (maybe an archived post). Anyway, the scoop and cutout are not optional for us because the air filter sticks up above the hood with an old BB and modern EFI. I seem to remember you move the front of the cutout back for better appearance and reduce the width of the cutout to allow for the opening to be centered on the inside ridge of the hood...while still having material for the scoop flange to screw to on the sides. Basically, you were centering the scoop with the body but centering the cutout on the under-hood structure. If this is old/outdated information, sorry. Thanks again.

[Higgybulin]

OH MAN! I get PTSD everytime I see stripes being laid out!
Higgy

[gbranham]

OH MAN! I get PTSD everytime I see stripes being laid out!
Higgy

This is why I told Kleiner I don't want stripes when he paints mine, hopefully later this year or early next. I like stripes, but I also like the clean look without them.

Greg

[Jeff Kleiner]

Hey, by the way, Jeff. I am studying the pictures you posted above. In addition to the question about the hood opening being normal with a 1" offset, would you mind explaining the method you use for the scoop cutout? I have read some older posts from you about it, but they were missing pictures and dimensions of the cutout (maybe an archived post). Anyway, the scoop and cutout are not optional for us because the air filter sticks up above the hood with an old BB and modern EFI. I seem to remember you move the front of the cutout back for better appearance and reduce the width of the cutout to allow for the opening to be centered on the inside ridge of the hood...while still having material for the scoop flange to screw to on the sides. Basically, you were centering the scoop with the body but centering the cutout on the under-hood structure. If this is old/outdated information, sorry. Thanks again.

Right. I make the cutout based on the underside because if you go from the top---even on the centerline---it may not end up well placed in the indentation (and these are the kind of things that keep me up at night! :rolleyes:). I make it a bit smaller than the actual scoop which allows for adjustment when placing the scoop and keeps it looking right from both the top and the bottom (even though in reality it might not measure right...again that Jeff Miller quote "look right not be right). I go 1 1/2" back on the sides and rear and 3" back from the front. I use a 3 1/2" hole saw for the corners.

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj43/jkleiner/Steve%20J/100_4863.jpg

This photo shows the hole and the fastener holes which will give you an idea of where the scoop flange falls in relation to the opening. Look closely and maybe you can see that the scoop is a little closer to the opening on the right but the stripes are even with the mounting holes side to side. When the scoop is mounted that discrepancy disappears.

By the way, I place the front of the scoop 1" forward of the front of the cutout.

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj43/jkleiner/Fred%20J/100_5531.jpg

Hope that helps!

Higgy, now you know why painters drink :p

Jeff

[rich grsc]

Painter's drink? :eek: tell me it ain't so. :rolleyes:

[Higgybulin]

Higgy, now you know why painters drink :p

Jeff

I am starting to realize that!!
Higgy

[Valkster]

Wow...I haven't painted a car in about 15 years, and this one will be metallic base with metallic stripes (I've never done stripes). I may be ready for a keg after that! Thanks much for the information, that really helps!
Mark

[Valkster]

Hey, all...do most of you measure for the hood latches from the "body centerline" used for the stripes and scoop, or hood centerline? Thanks

[Jeff Kleiner]

I use the center of the indentation on the underside of the hood—-it’s “close enough”

Jeff

[Valkster]

Ok, hood opening is cut and thanks for the advice on hood latch locating. I actually went an inch shorter on the length of the cut (moved front edge another inch back to a total of 4" from front indent). Our breather is still about 2" behind that cut with the hood closed. I put the scoop at 2" in front of the cutout, taking Jeff's suggestion, but adding the inch from the shorter cutout I made. Would there be any negatives to the hole being furth under the scoop? Our breather sticks up quite a bit and has good surface to pull air from. I didn't post a pic of it with the scoop on because I am investigating an issue. The breather looks like it is leaning to one side under the scoop. I had to jack the engine around on its mounts in the past to get the side pipes to look right but this looks odd to me (any input from past experience?). The passenger side of the filter housing appears to be about 1/4"+ higher than the driver's side. I looked at my build notes and photos and I had lowered the driver's side of the engine to allow the headers to be equal height on both sides. I think I would have had to cut and inch or more out of the body on one side to fit the sidepipes to the header. We have old BB FE if anyone knows of a workaround for FFR headers being to high on one side.

Also, I have read some older posts about using the high-strength 3M filler to glue the inner and out hood shells back together after the cutout is made for the scoop. Opinions, yes or no on doing that? If it is a yes, what is the best way to clamp the two parts together without introducing a wave or ripple in the top of the hood? I wondered if the scoop fasteners would suffice in holding the pieces together. Any feedback would be appreciated.

211049

[Jeff Kleiner]

DO NOT squeeze the inner and outer layers together. Let them remain in their relaxed position and pack the gap with 3M Marine High Strength Repair Filler. Push it in 1/2”-3/4” (kind of like packing a wheel bearing). Smooth it along the opening as you fill it then after it sets sand it with 80 and finally slick it off with your filler of choice.

Jeff

[Valkster]

Thanks for that, Jeff. I was pressing the two shells together with my fingers and could see the outer skin flex is why I asked. Do you see any issues with a shorter opening in the hood (tucked deeper under the front opening), so long as the breather has plenty of room?

211050

211051

211052

[Valkster]

Hi again...I have read a few threads about the hood latches but for the life of me cannot find them now. One had to do with the orientation of the base before mounting (oriented front-to-back or side-to-side) and the other had to do with the screws used to hold the latches in place. I like the look of the latch base turned side-to-side (90 degrees off of the FFR manual instructions) and have a little concern about the mounting screws provided in the kit over the long term. They are a wood/sheet metal type screw and are meant to screw directly into the fiberglass, rather than a machine thread screw that passes completely through the hood with a nut on the backside. Aside from personal preference, are there any issues with the base orientation, and are there any known long-term issues with the "wood screws" that are provided to attach directly to the fiberglass? Thanks for any advice.

[Jeff Kleiner]

I recommend side to side orientation. Front to rear has virtually no room for error as far as positioning and unless they are dead nuts on the screws will break through the side of the rib on the hood underside. I’ve done literally dozens of cars using the sheet metal screws to attach the latches with no issues.

Jeff

[Valkster]

Thanks much, Jeff. I'll mount them oriented sideways with metal screws tomorrow then.

[Valkster]

Hey, all...I had the scoop in place with a few Clecos, and all looked ok. I just transferred all the scoop holes to the hood and found 2 breaking out into the hood opening. This happened along the driver's side radius of the scoop, and the last hole along the length of the scoop leading up to that radius on the driver's side (black arrow in photo). My hood opening measures correctly (meaning it is centered in the recess of the underside of the hood), and my scoop matches the body centerline string (and laser, lol). The inner skin of the hood, where the hood recess is based upon, seems shifted a little but not a huge amount. Please see the pic of the opening, air filter and scoop holes if you zoom in. My engine is tilted a little to the driver's side due to side pipe clearance, but not enough to justify the shift perceived in the photo. Should I build up the driver's side opening with 'glass or what? Any help identifying what I may have overlooked, and more importantly, what to do at this point would be GREATLY appreciated. This kit was delivered in November of 2022 if that sheds any light on the matter.

211348

Thanks,
Mark

[Jeff Kleiner]

Hey Mark,
I'm not sure what you have going on there. Here's a couple of photos of one that I painted last week and the location of the holes are very typical for how they all look.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=211351&d=1741654908

It's not unusual to see them a bit off to one side or the other due to shift between the inner and outer hood layers but when that happens it affects only one side and you're very close all the way around. I showed you the dimensions that I use for the cutout in an earlier post but I don't think that it was clear that those dimensions are from the inside radius of the indentation like shown here and not from the outside radius:

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=211350&d=1741654889

If you measured from the outer radius that would probably account for the seemingly oversized hole. It also looks like you may have pulled the scoop farther forward than I do (I locate the front of the scoop 1 inch forward of the front of the hole) which would bring it closer to edges of the cutout. In the end though you'll need to build it inward along at least the driver's side so that it catches all of the fasteners.

By the way, the engine is offset to the passenger side by design so the air filters are never centered in the scoop openings.

Jeff

211350211351

[Valkster]

Ok, thanks Jeff. It is hard to see in the pictures, but it looks like I am simply shifted more to the passenger side than in your pictures. If that is the case, I did poorly with my string getting it to look centered.

My scoop does sit more forward of the opening than the 1" you suggested, but that is because I made the hood opening 1" shorter in the front than suggested. So, my scoop sits 2" in front of the opening but should be in the same physical location on the hood as yours.

Just as a reference if it's not too much trouble to ask, how wide is your typical hood opening, and what it the distance from the rearmost edge of the scoop flange to the rear edge of the hood?

Thanks again,
Mark

[Jeff Kleiner]

Here's what I have on this most recent one. I do this using a template that I made years ago based on the dimensions I posted earlier so they are all pretty much identical.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=211374&d=1741717764

A=11 7/8"
B=10 1/2"
C=20 5/8"
D=3 1/2"

Jeff

211374

[Valkster]

Thanks much, Jeff. I definitely have messed up somewhere, perhaps on which side of the radius I measured from as you suggest. I am about an inch wider at B, and about 5/8" wider at A. I am an inch shorter a C, and that checks out with me shortening of the length by an inch. I am at 3-1/4" for D. Thanks for the assistance, I have a lot of repairing to do at this point.

-Mark

[Valkster]

I started repairs to the hood this afternoon. Hopefully I can get it back in good shape without too much trouble. It raised a reminder for me as I wait for it to cure enough to sand and prep. For those of you that paint these cars often and do all the body work...what long term cure/rest/shrink times do you use for the various components before it is safe to apply sealer, paint, and clear? I am mainly referring to the 3M HSRF, but also body compatible filler (Rage or Upol), and Slick Sand (or compatible) build primers? I have some notes on wait times to prevent shrinkage under the paint and prep, but the sources are old and seemingly random comments among a related thread. As the weather warms, I hope to prep for paint in the not-too-distant future. I've done paint and body on a few of my car restorations, but neither was fiberglass, and I did them many years ago. Any guidance or pointers would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Mark