My coyote won't start and I need some help- solved

[Blitzboy54]

Like the title says I turned the key this morning and nothing happened. I started troubleshooting and found I am not getting any power to the starter lead to the engine solenoid. I do have 12v at the big lug as that is a direct run from the bus attached to the battery. Here is what I have tested so far.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=210274&d=1739041931

Clutch safety switch - Verified it's open and goes to close when depressed. To make troubleshooting easier I have put a wire jumper in connector C257 so that switch is now always met.

Blue starter wire - Verified this is connected to blue SMR wire. I also verified when the key is turned to start that I am getting 12v

Orange EFI wire - Verified this is connected to the Ignition Relay Trigger. 12v is present when the key is set to run.

Ground - I was really careful to check every ground during the build. I have 5 different grounds on the control pack harness. Everyone has been tested to the battery lead. I have some other grounds in common but all my individual accessories work so if it was a ground issue I would think it would show up as having other problems as well.

Control pack fuse box - I have 12v at the fuse box at all times.

Fuses - I pulled and checked every fuse in both the PCM and RF fuse panel.

Inertia switch - Checked it, but even if it was open that would just keep the fuel pump from coming on. The fuel pump does not come on when the key is turned. I do know the pump works because I tested it with a power supply to set the pressure and check for leaks.

OBD port - I put a meter on the OBD port looking to see if I was getting a code. This is the most disconcerting part. The meter isn't getting any power, even with the key in run.

I pulled every connector and re attached, I cannot find any bent pins or opens. I used this control pack with the first engine I purchased on the dyno. The engine never ran but it turned over.

I really need some troubleshooting help. What I really need is a controls pack schematic.

[coyobra]

Like the title says I turned the key this morning and nothing happened. I started troubleshooting and found I am not getting any power to the starter lead to the engine solenoid. I do have 12v at the big lug as that is a direct run from the bus attached to the battery. Here is what I have tested so far.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=210274&d=1739041931

Clutch safety switch - Verified it's open and goes to close when depressed. To make troubleshooting easier I have put a wire jumper in connector C257 so that switch is now always met.

Blue starter wire - Verified this is connected to blue SMR wire. I also verified when the key is turned to start that I am getting 12v

Orange EFI wire - Verified this is connected to the Ignition Relay Trigger. 12v is present when the key is set to run.

Ground - I was really careful to check every ground during the build. I have 5 different grounds on the control pack harness. Everyone has been tested to the battery lead. I have some other grounds in common but all my individual accessories work so if it was a ground issue I would think it would show up as having other problems as well.

PCM - I have 12v at the PCM at all time.

Fuses - I pulled and checked every fuse in both the PCM and RF fuse panel.

Inertia switch - Checked it, but even if it was open that would just keep the fuel pump from coming on. The fuel pump does not come on when the key is turned. I do know the pump works because I tested it with a power supply to set the pressure and check for leaks.

OBD port - I put a meter on the OBD port looking to see if I was getting a code. This is the most disconcerting part. The meter isn't getting any power, even with the key in run.

I pulled every connector and re attached, I cannot find any bent pins or opens. I used this control pack with the first engine I purchased on the dyno. The engine never ran but it turned over.

I really need some troubleshooting help.

As long as you're checking all connections, how about looking at the ignition switch itself? Probably wouldn't hurt to eliminate that possibility.

[Junbug]

I had somehow hooked up the ignition wrong as well... Assuming you're using what FFR provided. Just verify all those are hooked up correctly. Do you get accessories and gauges to respond when you turn the ignition half way on? I had accidentally "dieted out" the IGN to COL cable. Once that was put back in, it fired right up. Good luck!

[PNWTim]

So, basic questions but I like basics.

Have you disconnected and reconnected your ECM cable(s) to ensure they are down and locked, no pins or connectors bent or misaligned?
It's not clear from your description but are you getting power to your fuel pump i.e. prime or does nothing happen with the key?
Also, is their a neutral lockout ground or something of that nature?

[Blitzboy54]

The switch is correct. The only thing I am not getting any response from is the PCM (ecu). I did some more troubleshooting and found a couple things. First I never connected the HAAT B off of the pigtail. I was following the FFR instructions probably too closely and missed this. Unfortunately connecting that has not helped. The troubleshooting guide says to check R6 (ignition relay) and R1 (PCM relay). I have power at R6 because I have power at the F5 relay. I do not have power at the F1 relay. This all tracks since my computer isn't doing anything. I pulled the relay and bench tested it, it works fine. It has incoming power but not 12v on the control side. So this all makes sense I guess. What I am unclear about is where does that 12v come from. I will call Ford on Monday but I have feeling the PCM has something wrong with it.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=210277&d=1739051738

[Blitzboy54]

So, basic questions but I like basics.

Have you disconnected and reconnected your ECM cable(s) to ensure they are down and locked, no pins or connectors bent or misaligned?
It's not clear from your description but are you getting power to your fuel pump i.e. prime or does nothing happen with the key?
Also, is their a neutral lockout ground or something of that nature?

No, I like basics to. Thank you for the response

Yes, I have pulled those connectors several times. I looked for bent pins. I guess it might not be seated correctly but man I would have to be a dope. I will take some pics of it.

I am not getting power to anything that the coyote controls. I know these things work because I tested them individually. I also checked all the incoming power from the RF harness. It's all there.

Yes there is a neutral lockout switch. I checked to make sure the switch was working (it is). I then jumpered out the connector so it is now closed. I suppose just to be sure I could plug it back in and tape it closed so there is no question. If it was the switch I would expect it to still prime the fuel pump I think but I don't know for sure.

[michael everson]

Do you have 12 volts on the stud on the front of the relay control box?
A large red wire goes from the large fuse to that lug

Mike

[Blitzboy54]

I do, but I don’t have power at pin 16 on the obd port or the PCM relay which is supposed to be always hot. I’m going to ask ford for a schematic on Monday. I’m wondering if I have an open or mis wire somewhere in the harness.

I did splice in the Autometer tach converter. Maybe I did something wrong. I’m going to go everything from start to finish tomorrow and see if I missed something.

[TTimmy]

No power to the OBD port is a concern. As mentioned, it is always on.

While you’re waiting for Ford to open on Monday the best you can do is triple check your work. In my case, most problems were self inflicted!

Would love to see it fired up soon!

[edwardb]

I agree it's concerning you don't have +12V at the ODB2 port. Just a guess, but I doubt that's necessarily something with the PCM. More than likely some type of wiring issue. Either external or internal to the control pack circuitry. If you have +12V on the large bolt on the front of the PDB, the control pack +12V wires attached to it, and the control pack ground solidly attached (Ford Performance want's that to be home run to the battery) you should have voltage there and your scanner light up when plugged in. I'd be asking Ford what could cause that. Two other points FWIW, the HAAT wire is an available power source (Hot At All Times) for whatever you might want, but doesn't affect anything if not used. The fuel pump will only very briefly cycle when power first applied. It's easy to miss. It won't actually run continuously until the engine starts. If the pump is doing nothing (and assuming it's wired correctly) that also suggests the Control Pack isn't running.

[michael everson]

I haven't seen this covered yet but also check the plug that the fuel pump ignition and starter request are plugged into. Maybe some pins got swapped. Easy check. BTW when you first turn the key on, you should hear the fuel pump as Paul stated but also the throttle body cycles too. Both of these happen regardless of the clutch switch.
Mike

[Blitzboy54]

Thank you Gentlemen! I re traced my steps and have not found any obvious installation mistakes. I have pulled every connector and see no bent or recessed pins. I have been digging into the installation paperwork, old threads and the internet generally and I have found some useful stuff. I made a 5 minute video breaking down what I am seeing and what i think the problem is. Much easier to explain than it is to type it out.


https://youtu.be/nwAE9Xdv4Vc?si=9rpKbpve04q1EM_Q


PS this is unedited. I referred to a few things backwards including calling a 10 amp fuse, 10 volts.

[Blitzboy54]

I then jumpered out the R1 relay and it woke up the ECU. So I at least now have something digital to work with. Hopefully Ford can help me figure it out from here. I sound a little more optimistic in the video than maybe I should. I am hot on it's tail but maybe further away from solving it as I implied. Got a little excited.


https://youtu.be/DjXuj98w_A8?si=TjJrQl2ftjBRZSRh

[PNWTim]

Troubleshooting is simply drilling down and isolating root cause which you are doing well, I definitely think you are on the right track. It'll be interesting to see what Ford says.

[BEAR-AvHistory]

You sure you have the ignition key wired correctly? My Coyote would not start & the solution with a FFR supplied ignition assembly was to move all the wires one position clockwise

[Al_C]

Kevin beat me to it. (tried to reply with a quote on his post, but for some reason "reply with quote" won't work. whatever)

I don't think your problem is in the fuse box. I have been down that rabbit hole and it wasn't there. The key connections in my mind, and apparently, Kevin's (BEAR-AVHistory), are the blue and orange wires as well as the pigtail connections to the ignition switch. My issues were with the connections between the pigtail and the blue/orange wires - they looked good, but weren't. Couldn't tell what connectors you are using, but I recommend something solid like a weatherpack. Spade connectors won't do. (my experience). Assuming you have the Gen II coyote controls pack installation guide, refer to page 15. light green wire - ignition relay trigger. that will start the relay/PCM.

In my opinion, based on what I have seen in this thread so far, your problem is between the ignition switch and the connections made on the C160A pigtail. I'd check those again, please.

[Blitzboy54]

You sure you have the ignition key wired correctly? My Coyote would not start & the solution with a FFR supplied ignition assembly was to move all the wires one position clockwise

Great idea! I went out and double checked everything on my iginition switch. I am getting voltage to the appropriate lugs when and where I am supposed to. I suspected as much because of the testing I had done before but certainly needed to check again.


Kevin beat me to it. (tried to reply with a quote on his post, but for some reason "reply with quote" won't work. whatever)

I don't think your problem is in the fuse box. I have been down that rabbit hole and it wasn't there. The key connections in my mind, and apparently, Kevin's (BEAR-AVHistory), are the blue and orange wires as well as the pigtail connections to the ignition switch. My issues were with the connections between the pigtail and the blue/orange wires - they looked good, but weren't. Couldn't tell what connectors you are using, but I recommend something solid like a weatherpack. Spade connectors won't do. (my experience). Assuming you have the Gen II coyote controls pack installation guide, refer to page 15. light green wire - ignition relay trigger. that will start the relay/PCM.

In my opinion, based on what I have seen in this thread so far, your problem is between the ignition switch and the connections made on the C160A pigtail. I'd check those again, please.

I had checked these before but not in a comprehensive way. I pulled the C160B pigtail connector from behind the dash, unplugged it and went wire to wire. There are 5 total wires (7 in the instructions but the MIL is now integrated directly and not present on the connector) on the pigtail so lets take them one at a time.

Wire 1 Green - Fuel pump. I have continuity from the RF relay (orange) to the pin on the connector. When I jumpered the R1 relay I heard it prime so safe to say that works

Wire 3 Light Blue - Starter wire (SMR) - I have this connected to the blue start wire per the instructions. When the key is turned all the way to start I get 12v at the pin

Wire 5 Light Green - Ignition relay trigger - i have the orange EFI wire connected. When the key is turned to run I get 12v at the pin, also when I had the R1 relay jumpered this activated the throttle body and pump as it was designed to do. I can assume that connection is correct.

Wire 8 Red - HAAT B - I have constant 12v at this pin.

Wire 9 Black - Chassis ground - I ohmed this pin back to the battery and it reads 1ohm. Of all my grounds this is the most resistance I get anywhere but still pretty low.


Keep the ideas coming. I really appreciate it.

[nuhale]

When you give it ignition are you able to open the throttle body by pressing the accelerator pedal?

Did you ground the PCB to the battery (check out edwardb 25th anniversary build thread, very nice guide & how he did it)?

If you put a jumper wire between the 12v and start terminal on the starter itself does it turn?

If you jump the start request at the R3 relay do you get it to turn?

Check the grounds again and again. Check the one on the PS front engine that is on one of the front cover studs towards the top too. My coyote in the cobra build a few years ago wouldn't kick. After weeks of f'n around on it it turned out it was a broken ring terminal on the clutch switch. It looked fine but inside the shrink sleeve it snapped and wasn't making a circuit. Stay on it and you'll get it sorted!

I'm having coyote issues too... As wrote in my thread I'm pretty certain because of all the edits to my engine and it's upsetting the ecu.

[Al_C]

If you put a jumper wire between the 12v and start terminal on the starter itself does it turn?

If you jump the start request at the R3 relay do you get it to turn?

Nuhale is on to something here. These two tests would be my suggestion for a next step as well. They'll help you determine if the problem is in the PCM or the wiring integration.

[michael everson]

Do you have a ground from the chassis to the engine block?
Mike

[Blitzboy54]

When you give it ignition are you able to open the throttle body by pressing the accelerator pedal?

Did you ground the PCB to the battery (check out edwardb 25th anniversary build thread, very nice guide & how he did it)?

If you put a jumper wire between the 12v and start terminal on the starter itself does it turn?

If you jump the start request at the R3 relay do you get it to turn?

Check the grounds again and again. Check the one on the PS front engine that is on one of the front cover studs towards the top too. My coyote in the cobra build a few years ago wouldn't kick. After weeks of f'n around on it it turned out it was a broken ring terminal on the clutch switch. It looked fine but inside the shrink sleeve it snapped and wasn't making a circuit. Stay on it and you'll get it sorted!

I'm having coyote issues too... As wrote in my thread I'm pretty certain because of all the edits to my engine and it's upsetting the ecu.


Nuhale is on to something here. These two tests would be my suggestion for a next step as well. They'll help you determine if the problem is in the PCM or the wiring integration.

Good stuff here. I put the jumper back and yes the TB rotates with the pedal. As an aside I purchased a used one and for the first time realized it makes a lot of noise. Might need a new one but I digress. I also gave the key a turn and the starter engages. It cranks over. It encouraging actually.


Do you have a ground from the chassis to the engine block?
Mike

Yes, generally speaking I am ground wire obsessed. I test every ground back to the battery and to each other. I also checked a bunch of random points on the block and heads to the battery. All good

[Blitzboy54]

Spoke with Ford this morning. They are putting together wiring diagrams/schematics that they will hopefully send me today. For the sake of documenting this I pulled an audit of all my votages and found some interesting things.

At this point the condition is the same. R1 does not engage. I do not have 12v to close the relay. I also do not have any power at pin 16 of the OBD port. On that, I checked pins 4 and 5 because they are Chassis Ground and Signal ground respectively. Both have no resistance to ground so I can check that off the list. No power to pin 16 though.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=210329&d=1739197932

I put the jumper back in. Like I said in a previous post the fuel pump primes, the TB triggers and responds to the pedal and the engine cranks. This eliminates in my mind anything on the RF side. In terms of those signals. With the jumper in and the key at the run position I checked voltage at all the fuses.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=210327&d=1739197932

F1 - VPWR1 - 0
F2 - VPWR2 -12V
F3 - VPWR3- 12V
F4 - VPWR4 -12V
F5 - IGNITION SWITCH A - 12V
F6 - IGNITION SWITHC B - 12V
F7 - ICP- 12V
F9 - VPWR6 - 12V
F10 - HAAT A - 0
F11 - HAAT B - 0

I found it interesting that there is no power at F1 when I have R1 jumpered since those are tied together and I have manufactured power across it. I pulled my meter out and did some testing. The fuses are in line with the trigger voltage not the power side. This makes sense I guess because they have the big JC fuses for the power side. Further interesting when I measured continuity from the fuse back to the input for the trigger voltage I get continuity for 1 second then it goes to open. This is the not the case from R2 to F2. That is continuous continuity. I really want to open the fuse box but do not know how.

The other "big news" is I don't have any power at either HAAT at the fuse. It's literally called "Hot All The Time" so I have to assume it should be there. The more I dig in the more I am convinced something is mis wired or physically broken in the control pack. I hope it's fixable because replacement would be pretty awful now that everything is integrated. I really need those schematics to TS further.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=210328&d=1739197932

[PNWTim]

I know this is pretty frustrating for you (at least it would be for me) but I am pretty impressed with your diagnostic skills. I am learning a lot and filing it away for my install this spring and really appreciate you documenting what you have done, what has worked, not worked, etc. I feel like you are pretty close to a solution.

[edwardb]

Didn't go through anything like this with my two Coyote builds. Hats off to how you're digging into this and hopefully soon be successful. I'm guessing the factory that made that harness did some type of automated point-to-point continuity testing. Pretty standard in the industry. The company I worked for had a harness plant so saw some of that up close. But anything's possible. Another forum member some years ago also with a Gen 2 control pack did have a defective harness and Ford eventually replaced it. The PDB is a standard Ford fuse box. Look under the hood of almost any recent Ford vehicle and you'll see the same part. I have to imagine there's instructions or a video out there somewhere showing how to take it apart. If necessary. Often things like this turn out to be simple solutions or even sometimes obvious ones in hindsight. Hopefully that's the case for you.

One other thing -- and this is a real flyer and doesn't 100% match your symptoms -- but awhile back another forum member had a no-start Coyote. Turns out he had the ignition switch wiring incorrectly. The ACC and IGNITION were reversed. The result was with the key in RUN it was electrically in ACC. Resulting in +12V to the orange EFI wire in the key RUN position, but since ACC is shut off in the START position, the Coyote wouldn't start. The control pack instructions properly point out that a solid +12V must be on the Light Green - Ignition relay trigger wire or the engine won't start or run. Just suggesting to confirm that +12V exists in both RUN and START positions. Probably you have checked, but thought I would mention it.

[Al_C]

Here's something else to think about. Maybe. Am I correct that your Gen II is a remanufactured unit? What about the controls pack and PCM? Did you buy them all together or separately? From Ford or elsewhere?

Here's where I'm going: there are two versions of the Gen II. The earlier, 2015 (like mine) have TWO clutch switches, upper and lower. The newer 2017 Gen II has one. So if your parts were purchased separately, you could have unintentionally received a 2017 harness for a 2015 PCM. If that were to be the case, the PCM would be looking for input from a clutch switch that you don't have. Not saying that this is the case, but worth confirming.

[Blitzboy54]

Thank you everyone for your continued input. The number one rule of brainstorming is there are no bad ideas. Even if it's far fetched it may trigger another idea so please continue to chime in if you think of something.

Paul, yes sir I have check that a couple times. I am getting voltages where appropriate.

Al - This is interesting and I called Ford back. They are still working on getting schematics but I asked specifically about this. They said there is an issue sometimes but with donor parts. A new harness and control pack should marry up. I have a M-6017-M50A control pack and a M-1200-M50 harness.

I may have found the problem

But that is the end of the good news for a moment. I continued to be baffled by the lack of HAAT power. Particularly since I know I have HAAT A because it's the 12v that come in from the 4awg lug directly from the battery. HAAT B comes from the 16 pin connector.

I took the fuse box off as best I could. I removed all power (battery disconnected) and removed the back of the box. What I found was interesting. As you can see in this picture my screw driver is pointing to a red wire. That is the control voltage to the R1 relay. That should be hot all the time. The other side is a link to ground. Thats how these switches work. I know this supposed to the HAAT power because if you follow this wire back there is a large red wire that is spliced to the R1 relay and both fuses F10 and F11. HAAT A is the main bus so why would they all be linked together? That is curiosity number 1.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=210343&d=1739206758

So I went back to the source of HAAT B power (the 16 pin connector top left socket) and measured continuity to the incoming side. Not only do I have a complete open (this tracks) I have continuity to ground. I clearly have a short somewhere I am guessing in the harness control pack. Everywhere HAAT B power is supposed to go I have continuity to ground. This includes Pin 16 on the OBD port. I am putting all of this into a mass email with pictures and diagrams for the Ford folks.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=210344&d=1739207652

[OB6]

If there's any silver lining to this, you'll know the harness better than you ever would otherwise. Kudos on your persistence and logical diagnosis. It seems like you're getting closer.

[lasse2]

Sorry to hear you are going through this. I had a no start condition when I was trying to get my Gen III Coyote going. Very frustrating and worked with the Ford techs for a few weeks trying different things. I had power to the ECM and basically rewired the car to verify everything was correct. Couldn't find anything wrong and in the end, we determined that the ECM didn't have a complete program flashed and needed to be sent back to Ford. I sent it back and waited a couple weeks for it to return, plugged it in and it fired on the first try..... Only two months wasted. As is understand it, there is no QC process to verify the programming and function before these units are shipped.

[k-roy]

Sounds like you have done a lot of work. Won't be consistent with a short, but when I wired my tach into the coil wire, I unwittingly left it unplugged. My engine wouldn't turn over.

[Blitzboy54]

Also just for the record. I misunderstood what HAAT B was. That’s not an input but a usable pigtail. I’ve pulled the fuse to remove it from the equation. I have no source of always on power where I should and my HAAT circuit shorts to ground. I’m guessing a wiring error or some trigger in the PCM isn’t correct

[Blitzboy54]

Update -

I have modified my chart I do have power at F1 when I jumper. I think I didn't have good contact on the fuse the first time.


F1 - VPWR1 - 12v
F2 - VPWR2 -12V
F3 - VPWR3- 12V
F4 - VPWR4 -12V
F5 - IGNITION SWITCH A - 12V
F6 - IGNITION SWITHC B - 12V
F7 - ICP- 12V
F9 - VPWR6 - 12V
F10 - HAAT A - 0
F11 - HAAT B - 0

I will post it later because I am on my work computer and don't have access at the moment but I have a full service manual for a 2016 Mustang GT. HAAT power comes from a contactor internal to the PCM that is activated when the key is turned to start. Mine is not contacting. This also might explains why anything tied to the HAAT circuit is short to ground. HAAT power runs power to all the sensors and OBD port so this tracks.

It's early but the Ford people have not been real responsive. They said they would email schematics and it hasn't happened yet. It's fine, I think I figured it out but here's what happens next. I found a used PCM on ebay for cheap. It won't run the engine but if I turn the key and the engine comes alive and the OBD port has power I will have identified root cause. I can then push back on Ford and ask for this unit to be repaired or replaced. I guess it's possible there is break in a wire somewhere but that feels less likely. I still need schematics to show me what to test.

One step at a time.

***Edit***

Just as I say that Ford called. We are in agreement on what the problem the absence of the HAAT. We also agree that it is either the PCM not triggering it or the wire harness not providing the trigger signal. They will send me some tests later today. Also may send me a test PCM. Either way I am confident we will figure it out. Now that I know I don't have any fuel leaks having fully tested the system I may work on the aluminum in the back of the car to stay busy.

[PNWTim]

I keep waiting to see your thread pop back up to the top. I am guessing you have gotten delayed.

[Blitzboy54]

I plan to call Ford back today. He said I was his "top" priority but have not received any wiring diagrams yet. I purchased a used PCM with the same PN that arrives today. I will at the very least see if when I turn the key to on if the engine wakes up and I have HAAT power. If so problem solved. I will send back the PCM to Ford and have them fix or replace it.

If I have a problem in the harness I really need the diagram. I don't want to pull apart the harness. I don't think there are any other relays or switches outside the Fuse panel but I don't know without documentation.

My daughters conference swim championships are this weekend so I have tonight otherwise I am out of commission until Monday. I would like those diagrams by Friday. A weeks seems reasonable.

[rich grsc]

Is it just the camera angle? Looking at the photo showing the 16 pin connector, it looks like the light blue & green wires are not in the same pin location on the male side as the female side???

[Blitzboy54]

Is it just the camera angle? Looking at the photo showing the 16 pin connector, it looks like the light blue & green wires are not in the same pin location on the male side as the female side???

Thanks Rich, I think that's a camera trick. Last night I traced the green wire back. Since my ignition circuit works I traced that wire back from the relay. The blue and green are where they should be and getting the appropriate voltage.

For anyone that is interested when you turn the key the green wire (fed from the orange EFI on the RF) energizes relay R6. That is the trigger side. The relay then opens and is powered from the 12v that comes from the main battery input. The big red wire feeds a bus, the bus in turn feeds all the "output circuits". They are all ground controlled from the PCM. The issue I have on mine is I have power at the output circuit of R1 but the trigger voltage comes from the HAAT (Hot at all times) voltage. That also feeds the MIL and provides power to the OBD port. Once I solve the HAAT issue I think the problem goes away.

This is where I am lost. The HAAT power comes from somewhere back in the harness. I need the wiring diagram to test where. The PCM doesn't provide any high current power just ground triggers to trip relays. The ignition relay sends big 12v back to up the wiring harness on the yellow wires. I suspect that is tied somehow to the HAAT. I will find out hopefully soon.

[Blitzboy54]

I completely isolated the control pack harness. I unplugged it from the PCU, the engine harness, the MAF, alternator, 16 pin connector, throttle, clutch switch and MIL. The only physical connection it has to my car is the 12v battery lug at the fuse panel and the grounds.

With that I have a dead short to ground from any HAAT connection to ground of 0.1 ohm.

I still really want to see a wiring diagram. My preference would be to fix this but it might be time talk about replacing the control pack harness.


https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=210443&d=1739491972

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=210442&d=1739491972

[Nigel Allen]

When an electrical system has a dead short, put a globe (50-100 watt) in series with the battery as a current limiting device. An added bonus is that the globe will be bright when there is a short, but will reduce brightness or go out when the fault is removed. Also saves fuses from being blown and reduces 'stress' on the electrical system whilst testing.

Hope you find the culprit soon.

Cheers,
Nige

[Blitzboy54]

Anyone with a Gen 2 coyote, regardless of what kind of vehicle it’s in, do me a favor? I need 2 measurements both with the engine completely powered off. First at the fuse box, please measure if there is 12v at F10. There are little probes at the top of the fuse. If there is 12v let me know. If there is not 12v can you then take a continuity measurement from F10 to chassis ground? Is it open or do you have continuity to ground?


210458

This can also be done from pin 16 of the OBD2 port if the fuse box is difficult to bet to. Whatever is easier.

210459

[jiriza84641]

Anyone with a Gen 2 coyote, regardless of what kind of vehicle it’s in, do me a favor? I need 2 measurements both with the engine completely powered off. First at the fuse box, please measure if there is 12v at F10. There are little probes at the top of the fuse. If there is 12v let me know. If there is not 12v can you then take a continuity measurement from F10 to chassis ground? Is it open or do you have continuity to ground?


210458

This can also be done from pin 16 of the OBD2 port if the fuse box is difficult to bet to. Whatever is easier.

210459

I am HAAT any both locations.

[Blitzboy54]

I am HAAT any both locations.


Thank you sir.

[Blitzboy54]

My experience with the Ford Performance Tech dept has been a mixed bag. They are very knowledgeable but slow. It took 2 weeks to get the wiring diagram I needed. I received it yesterday afternoon. I did reach out to Mike Forte (purchased from him) if there was anything he could do. He had me send him what I had found and said he would push on them. Very nice gesture. Here is what I was able to find.

This is the back of the PDM (power dist module, ie fuse box). This is the view from underneath and labels all the connections.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=210681&d=1740232419

These 2 are the wiring legends. I highlighted the relevant parts in RED.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=210683&d=1740232419

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=210684&d=1740232419

What this shows is what I assumed but couldn't prove. The HAAT circuit is fed from the battery input. Ford calls it "B+MAIN". The diagram can be a little confusing but the money shot is at the bottom of the last photo. R1-1 (relay power feed) is clearly supposed to be powered by B+MAIN that comes from the PDM. On my harness it isn't

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=210686&d=1740233903

As you can see from the labels I added in this photo. There is a little bit you have to trust me on. I put the back of the fuse box on and really don't feel like taking it back apart but you can see enough here.

R1-3 - has power from the main bus. - This is normal

R1-1 - Has no power and is not connected to the B+MAIN -

If you follow R1-1 down to the connector you see 3 wires. 2 of those go to F10-1 and F11-1 (the fused connection for HAAT A and HAAT B). The wiring diagram lists that connection as SDC01 (SDC01 is supposed to be powered by B+MAIN (battery positive main). There is also a 10 AWG wire that disappears into the trunk. This is listed as circuit DC01G and B+MAIN from PDM STUD --> SDC01. Mine is not connected to it and I assume mis wired to ground.

I was considering simply adding 12v to that circuit with a jumper and see if I could get everything working. The problem is my entire HAAT circuit has a dead short to ground. That means it is tied to the Chassis ground somewhere in the harness. (I suspect that 10 AWG wire is mis connected). I am afraid if I jumper 12v in I will simply blow the fuse or damage something else before the fuse goes. I did consider maybe there is some sort of voltage filter (diode maybe) that protects it after voltage is applied but seemed far fetched. So I used an indicator lamp from the kit and jumpered R1-3 (has bus power) to R1-1 (HAAT circuit). The lamp is a current restrictor. If it lights up it means the path to ground is real.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=210687&d=1740235162

My harness does not match their own manufactured specs. I will ask for a replacement. Hopefully this is enough to convince them as well. I am considering cutting that 10 AWG wire and seeing if my short to ground disappears. If it does, theoretically I could route the pigtail back to B+MAIN and it should work. The problem is i don't know what else was built wrong.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Good detective work! I know you'd like to get it working but I'd advise against cutting or rerouting any wires, even if they do seem to be in error---if you do it will give them a reason to deny replacing it.

Jeff

[rich grsc]

My brain hurts from just trying to follow your findings,:confused: I suck at sorting out that stuff. Good job

[cv2065]

I'm with Rich. My eyeballs glaze over if it gets too technical. Great job on sorting this out and glad you solved the mystery! Maybe a job with Ford technical support is in your future? :)

[TTimmy]

Looks like you are now the forum's resident expert on this topic! I've been watching closely and rooting from the sidelines.

While this was/is very frustrating you demonstrated some outstanding diagnostic troubleshooting skills!

[PNWTim]

Wow, really good work. While it's a real bummer to have to replace the PDM harness I wouldn't do anything less. Given the amount of time and value associated with your build you don't want a gremlin filled power block in there. Yours must have been assembled last year on Superbowl Monday is all I can surmise.

I just installed a mini split in my shop and I had a similar situation where nothing seemed to make sense and it was driving me nuts. Finally turned out my gauge manifold had a leak and it all worked out but I was starting to doubt my sanity. Not nearly the rabbit hole you had to go down but at least your suspicions are validated.

[TXeverydayDad]

Crazy! Hope Ford makes it right. Thanks for writing up the details of your troubleshooting.

[OB6]

Nice work Jesse. I've been watching from the bleachers, with absolutely nothing to offer. It's interesting for me to see how much more complex the Coyote control pack and harness is compared to the LS3 equivalent from GM that I'm using. Not good or bad, just interesting to see (IMO).

[Blitzboy54]

Looks like you are now the forum's resident expert on this topic! I've been watching closely and rooting from the sidelines.

While this was/is very frustrating you demonstrated some outstanding diagnostic troubleshooting skills!

I appreciate the (and everyone else who's commented) kind words. To be transparent I make a living fixing machines that make microchips. I have spent the better part of 25 years troubleshooting very similar circuits.

If anyone with a Gen 2 control pack wants it I am happy to send the wiring diagram to them. It's 19 pages and has a lot of good information. Send me a DM.


Nice work Jesse. I've been watching from the bleachers, with absolutely nothing to offer. It's interesting for me to see how much more complex the Coyote control pack and harness is compared to the LS3 equivalent from GM that I'm using. Not good or bad, just interesting to see (IMO).

I told myself from the moment I considered building another roadster that I was going to go with an LS. But nope, I had to have a coyote. lol

Hopefully this all ends as a really good build story.

[Killer76]

Good work on the Diag so far. But honestly I'm not sure I would trust that indicator your using to prove you have a short to ground on R1-1. Looks like an LED light to me. I only use LED test lights when I'm testing certain PCM circuits.

I personally would use an incandescent test light to load test between R1-1 and R1-3. If it lights a normal test light its grounded.

A standard incandescent test light pulls about 250 milliamp so your not gonna damage anything and its a good test to prove chassis ground is present at R1-1. You could always just make sure the PCM is disconnected if your worried about damage during the test.

[Blitzboy54]

Good work on the Diag so far. But honestly I'm not sure I would trust that indicator your using to prove you have a short to ground on R1-1. Looks like an LED light to me. I only use LED test lights when I'm testing certain PCM circuits.

I personally would use an incandescent test light to load test between R1-1 and R1-3. If it lights a normal test light its grounded.

A standard incandescent test light pulls about 250 milliamp so your not gonna damage anything and its a good test to prove chassis ground is present at R1-1. You could always just make sure the PCM is disconnected if your worried about damage during the test.

That a good point. I know it's short to ground because I used a multi meter to measure it but as you point out my test may not be valid. You are right about LED vs incandescent. I assumed the little plastic indicators that come with the kit are not LED's but after reading this I wasn't sure. So I broke one open. It is in fact a regular bulb.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=210696&d=1740243597

[Killer76]

Good test. Now if you have an amp clamp you can trace the short. Looks like the the red wire leaving R1-1 , splices into three wires. With the test light still jumped between R1-1 and R1-3 , you can see which of those three wires is the short by using an amp clamp to see which wire has the load on it.

if you wanted to go that far.

[Blitzboy54]

For sure. I dint actually have one at home. I could borrow one from work and check it on Monday but at the end of the day I don’t know what else may be wrong. Best I think to fully back out and replace.

[Killer76]

Yeah I understand that. If your confident its a bad harness and not an installation error (pinched wire or something connected wrong) That's the right move. Since I've not built one of these cars yet, I personally have no idea how hard swapping that harness is gonna be.

I do auto electrical diagnostic work for a living so sometimes I get caught up in finding the cause of the problem and go down the rabbit hole when its not necessary. Like a dog on the hunt lol.

Id like to say, good job of documenting your findings . Good work

Did Ford send you an actual wiring diagram, outside of what you posted ? I could offer to you send you any factory OEM wiring diagrams but I don't think that would help as this looks like a completely different harness then anything found in a Coyote based OEM vehicle (Mustang ect)


EDIT: Sorry, I just re read the post and realized I missed the fact ford sent you the compete wiring diagrams.

[Blitzboy54]

Thanks man, I will reach out if I get stuck for sure. To answer your question I have a complete shop manual and wiring diagram for 2017 mustang gt. The control pack is designed specifically for coyote swaps. It only has a couple inputs and is designed to run as a closed eco system. The mustang stuff is very useful for the engine but useless for wiring as a car (as you know) has 100x more electrical inputs than the control pack.

Ford Performance doesn’t publish the control pack tech docs anywhere I can find. I had to get them from them directly. Just took some time.

[Blitzboy54]

So i packaged up all my findings and sent them off to Ford last weekend. I followed up on Monday with a phone call and he confirmed he received it. The consensus is he agrees with my findings and that I am owed a replacement harness and he would like me to send my PCM in so they can bench test it. This all sounds fantastic accept as it turns out the techs at the help line do not have the autonomy to make that call. He had to send it up to Engineering and they have to approve. These are probably the same folks that took 2 weeks to get me the wiring diagram. The week came and went and we have not heard back. So we continue to inch along.

I did bring up that I wanted to see if I further troubleshot the harness (ie cut into it) if it would negate my ability to get it replaced. He said my case has been made and they will not want it back so I could do whatever I wanted to it.

My central theory is the HAAT power was wired to ground by mistake. So I pulled back the sheathing and found that 10 awg wire and cut it. Low and behold the short to ground disappeared. I only have continuity throughout the HAAT. I then installed a pigtail and ran it back around to the incoming battery power. This fixed my HAAT issue. I now have power at every circuit including the OBD port and MIL.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=211033&d=1740936628

Now when you turn the key everything wakes up. The pump primes and throttle body kicks. When I turn the key it cranks for 3 seconds then resets. So I am still not there. I scanned the OBD to see if the engine would tell me what it was missing but I don't get any codes despite the check engine light being on.

My chief assumption is that there must be some other thing mis wired in the harness and I am missing something to the PCM. I am now at a dead stop on the engine until I get a replacement harness. I would have been nice for the engine to start because then at least I know it's good to go.

Such is life.

[michael everson]

turn the key on and then jump the starter to see if it will start. It usually takes way longer to start the first time than you might think. Keep cranking it off and on until it starts.
Mike

[Erik W. Treves]

on the GEN3 I jumper the fuel pump relay - keep it steady on - and to mikes point - you don't have to run the start circuit through the ECU - it doesn't care... it just needs to see RPM to fire.

[Blitzboy54]

turn the key on and then jump the starter to see if it will start. It usually takes way longer to start the first time than you might think. Keep cranking it off and on until it starts.
Mike


on the GEN3 I jumper the fuel pump relay - keep it steady on - and to mikes point - you don't have to run the start circuit through the ECU - it doesn't care... it just needs to see RPM to fire.

Thanks fellas,

I put the fuel pump directly on a 12v power supply and re tried. Still no start. I tried to jumper the starter (it's hard to get to cleanly) with a wire but ultimately used a screw driver the old fashioned way. Either way the engine won't kick.

Eric's comment here cemented it. I actually have 2 problems. First is well documented in this thread. They other you ask? See the below picture. I NEVER INSTALLED THE CRANK SENSOR POSITION RING!!!!! Oooph, so now I need to jack her back up and remove the transmission and bell housing and flywheel. Man did I mess up. i am honestly a little relieved? This is the very definition of measure twice and cut once. As I was putting the engine together I had a fleeting thought about "I wonder what that sensor is reading" and never got back to it.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=208533&d=1736019397

I need one of these. If anyone is feeling like helping an ego bruised fellow traveler I am having a hard time finding the OEM PN. I need a 2015-2017 version

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=211088&d=1741038034

So I am an an idiot. If breaking down electrical circuits was my super power missing the obvious is my kryptonite.

[michael everson]

Mike Forte was able to locate one for me. Bummer that sucks. I know the feeling. I did something similar with a rear main seal. Found it on the bench after cleaning.
Mike

[Blitzboy54]

I found it.

If anyone is interested

https://parts.ford.com/shop/en/us/electrical/sensorsdevices/ring-p-br3z12a227a?pdp=y

I am actually excited. Yes, it sucks that I have to do all this, yes I have lost a bunch of time but at the end of the day I think I had two problems and have now found root cause for both. Fingers crossed.

[gbranham]

Love the perseverance! Sorry you had to go through all of this, but glad you found it!

Greg

[nuhale]

Whoops! That would do it!

I just went thru the same thing but in my case I had the ring and sensor in place but figured out that my sensor was garbage cheapo part and wasn't functioning. Glad I had my roadster nearby and swapped it out to fire it up.

Happy you found it!

fordparts.com is a great source for the coyote engine. I used it to identify (not buy) all the parts needed as I built my gen2 and it was a ton of parts.

Make sure you get a genuine FoMoCo part!

[Blitzboy54]

Whoops! That would do it!

I just went thru the same thing but in my case I had the ring and sensor in place but figured out that my sensor was garbage cheapo part and wasn't functioning. Glad I had my roadster nearby and swapped it out to fire it up.

Happy you found it!

fordparts.com is a great source for the coyote engine. I used it to identify (not buy) all the parts needed as I built my gen2 and it was a ton of parts.

Make sure you get a genuine FoMoCo part!

Yes sir, I went OEM for everything. Turns out that pulse ring was cheaper by half from Ford than aftermarket anyhow. The only one I could find was the Ford Performance version that is designed for hi RPM (+7700). Seemed unnecessary in this case. Plus I needed to save some money for the transmission jack I have to buy now. lol

[PNWTim]

Yes sir, I went OEM for everything. Turns out that pulse ring was cheaper by half from Ford than aftermarket anyhow. The only one I could find was the Ford Performance version that is designed for hi RPM (+7700). Seemed unnecessary in this case. Plus I needed to save some money for the transmission jack I have to buy now. lol

Buuuut...the glass is half full when you get to buy a new tool!

[Blitzboy54]

Buuuut...the glass is half full when you get to buy a new tool!

This is the only rational way to look at it.

[JohnK]

Wow, what a bummer that you had to go through all of this but glad you finally got it figured out. Curious, (sorry if you mentioned this already and I missed it) did your engine not come with it? My gen2 had it on there.

[Blitzboy54]

Wow, what a bummer that you had to go through all of this but glad you finally got it figured out. Curious, (sorry if you mentioned this already and I missed it) did your engine not come with it? My gen2 had it on there.

That’s a fair question. I purchased a factory remanufactured Gen 2. It’s essentially a long block that still needs an intake manifold and most of the sensors. I missed that the ring was even a thing. I searched a factory maintenance manual for all the sensors. I should have perused the mechanical section as well. The harness is just bad luck. The sensor ring is 100% my fault. This is how the engine arrived

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=202952&d=1724161410

[gbranham]

This first start will probably be one of, if not the most satisfying this forum has ever seen!

Greeg

[kirby]

If your coyote runs like mine all of this will be worth it!!! Been following this for a while and glad you found the issue.

[Blitzboy54]

Guys.... We did it


https://youtu.be/PO2E1Nu-9Kw?si=tjFm0DKmKGVTdUFA



Can't thank everyone enough. It was a real team effort. Still have some bugs to work out. Check engine light stays on and there are no codes I can find. But all in all a very good day.

[cv2065]

That was AWESOME!! The look on your face was priceless. Congrats!!

[Jeff Kleiner]

Attaboy Jesse!

Happy for ya' :cool:

Jeff

[OB6]

Best thing I saw all day. Congrats!

[gbranham]

That was the best thing I've seen all week! Way to go, Jesse!!! And I learned some new expletives. Hah!!!

Greg

[PNWTim]

Well done! Talk about perseverance!

[cdurbin328]

Congrats! It's got to be a great feeling. I know it was when I fired mine for the first time. I had somewhat of a similiar issue with my Gen2 Coyote build. I spent almost 3 weeks troubleshooting back and forth with Ford and FFR tech support with no luck. I ended up going old school troubleshooting mode like you and was able to find the issue. Mine turned out to be an incorrect wiring issue on the Ron Francis fuse box that came with my kit. After that was fixed it was golden. I've put about 1100 miles on the build and never had any issues. Fires up everytime. Congrats again and happy driving!

[MaxVmo]

So awesome!! I loved the look as well! Lets goooooooo!

[Nigel Allen]

Great sleuthing and persistence with a great pay off.

Nice work.

Nige

[TTimmy]

I was really exciting see this! Congrats on the start man - long time coming and well deserved!

[topherchrisb]

Congrats sir! I think I remember seeing yours is a 4X engine? I too have a 4X and have a constant check engine light. I've done some pretty significant trouble shooting on that and have some good videos from the weekend I'll be posting on my situation. I'll try to get them up some time today so you can see what I'm dealing with. Hopefully help you short circuit that issue for you.

I just saw your post about the fan controller and noticed you are using a gen 2 coyote.

[Blitzboy54]

Congrats sir! I think I remember seeing yours is a 4X engine? I too have a 4X and have a constant check engine light. I've done some pretty significant trouble shooting on that and have some good videos from the weekend I'll be posting on my situation. I'll try to get them up some time today so you can see what I'm dealing with. Hopefully help you short circuit that issue for you.

I just saw your post about the fan controller and noticed you are using a gen 2 coyote.

Yes sir, I also figured out the check engine light issue. The MIL that comes with the control pack is an incandescent light. I removed it and wired directly into and LED indicator in the dash. There is a little voltage leakage to ground that I assume is normal. This is enough to "trigger" my light. I tested the circuit with an incandescent bulb and the light stays off.

I am going to use a relay to solve this. I never had any codes so my assumption was a bad ground. Turns out it was just an engineering change on my part.

[nuhale]

Yes sir, I also figured out the check engine light issue. The MIL that comes with the control pack is an incandescent light. I removed it and wired directly into and LED indicator in the dash. There is a little voltage leakage to ground that I assume is normal. This is enough to "trigger" my light. I tested the circuit with an incandescent bulb and the light stays off.

I am going to use a relay to solve this. I never had any codes so my assumption was a bad ground. Turns out it was just an engineering change on my part.

Yes, the Gen2 MIL light has a slight voltage when running which will slightly glow a LED. Note that this light has a constant 12v and is ground switched. Relay might do the trick. Always bugged me on my roadster. I can't see it in daylight but visible at night. Can't remember who said it but I've just turned my brain to its a "engine is running" light... hahaha.

[Blitzboy54]

Ford emailed me last night. They are sending me a new harness. However, now engineering wants to FA the old one with their vendor. This was a change but their management saw the data and wants to see it. I get it but 2 problems for me

1. I did all the troubleshooting, documenting and ultimately re wired it.

2. They took 4 1/2 weeks to get to this point, I feel like this took a lot longer considering bullet point number 1 than it should have.

Having said all that am I out of line declining to return the one in my car now? I purchased a defective harness, so it is reasonable to receive a new one. I am not 'getting away" with anything here. I also fixed the old one and would like the replacement as a spare.

The engineer in me understands why they want it and if I am going to replace it now is the time I guess. I am genuinely torn.

What would you guys do.

[nuhale]

If you have it working and its installed, I would tell ford you will document the issue but this one stays. Who knows what adventure lies ahead with the new one.

[edwardb]

I know it's taken awhile, but I'd return it. IMO, a completely reasonable request for a warranty repair/replacement. Totally normal in the automotive industry (used to be in it) plus most others to do failure analysis and appropriate corrective action with suppliers. Helps everybody. Personally, I'd want a new one anyway. Given what you found, who knows what else might be lurking with that harness. Much easier to swap out now than later when the build is completed.

[OB6]

I know it's taken awhile, but I'd return it. IMO, a completely reasonable request for a warranty repair/replacement. Totally normal in the automotive industry (used to be in it) plus most others to do failure analysis and appropriate corrective action with suppliers. Helps everybody. Personally, I'd want a new one anyway. Given what you found, who knows what else might be lurking with that harness. Much easier to swap out now than later when the build is completed.

I agree with Paul, and it's what I'd do if it was mine. Perhaps easy to say as someone who doesn't have to do the work, but I think you'll be more comfortable in the long run.

[ggunter]

I thought they told you they didn't want it back. Do you have the name of the guy that told you that? If you have it repaired, I would not take that harness out of the car. Seems to me you've done enough work for them. How much work is it to replace the harness? A couple hours or a couple days? Is your ECU ok? The great thing is you figured it out and did an amazing job trouble shooting it. I would leave it in, but if you do and have issues later, they can walk away because you didn't return the old one. Dam if you do dam if you don't. :confused:

[J R Jones]

You have been a Ford "field testing unit" sometimes affiliated with warranty. I have had two product failure experiences recently with different resolutions; reasons are apparent.
I bought a Covercraft winter cover for my RV. The lower zipper stitching at the access flap let go. Covercraft requested photos and sent me a new cover. They did not request the old cover which was sourced China. That was simple for them to understand. I had the old cover stitched at a sail shop and used it again this winter.

In February I bought a Creworks ultrasonic cleaner, also made in China. It did not function properly, it switched to "Gentle" every one to four minutes (@150F) during 30 minute cycles.
Creworks sent me a new control panel requiring my disassembly and installation. I did not have a "clean task" and tested the new control panel with tap water at 100F. It failed #1 and #2 test, then passed #3 and #4.
We assumed the cleaner was OK. Creworks asked for the old panel to be returned to CA.

Last week I had fuel injectors to clean and at 150F the failures were back. I sent minute to minute logs for two 30 minute sessions in a Word chart. They asked for a video.
20 minutes of video was 1.63GB which does not transfer by normal email. It took more than an hour. I suggested that Creworks take a new cleaner out and test it before sending me a replacement.
Creworks refunded my purchase price and asked for the unit back.
Yesterday the cleaner went to China by UPS. Creworks has paid for all shipping. Obviously they want to understand the failure.
Email has been tedious as no one on their end indentify the sender, and several people were involved at the same address. English was not the primary language for any of the senders.
I could have used the cleaner, it worked but it was inconvenient and took more time. I am out the hours of work I have in this project.

In your case the harness is not in the original configuration compromising the evidence, still Ford is interested. What are the chances you will need a spare? What are the chances another malfunction is waiting to be discovered in that harness? Send it back and chalk it up to experience.
jim

[Jeff Kleiner]

This latest decision from Ford says that you can't have it both ways---keeping the original harness in addition to receiving a new one. So, you now have a choice to make. And honestly it doesn't seem unreasonable for them to ask for the original one back if they are going to provide a replacement. Don't misunderstand, I'm sympathetic to your situation but if you don't wish to return it then they are not obligated to replace it.

Jeff

[Blitzboy54]

This latest decision from Ford says that you can't have it both ways---keeping the original harness in addition to receiving a new one. So, you now have a choice to make. And honestly it doesn't seem unreasonable for them to ask for the original one back if they are going to provide a replacement. Don't misunderstand, I'm sympathetic to your situation but if you don't wish to return it then they are not obligated to replace it.

Jeff

It’s not quite as cut and dry as all that. They already sent it and sent along with that note and tracking number that they changed their mind.

I do get it and the engine bay isn’t that bad. It’s taking my dash out and de integration of everything that’s making my chest hurt. They told me on the phone they didn’t want it back. Totally understand why they do I’m just stressed about all the potential wiring issues taking it back out. I was going to have to do it when it was broken. Now it’s not.

I’ll probably do it. I’m just ready to move on.


***Edit, at the end of the day I am building the coolest car on the planet (for a second time). In the grand scheme of things this is a minor bump in the road. Just needed to vent and get my head around it. Appreciate the board as always***

[ggunter]

Since you are intimately familiar with your harness, I have no doubt you could trouble shoot it again if necessary. With the time to remove it and install the new one I think I would run it.