Russ Thompson turn signal

[Rian_Colorado]

Anyone know if TJ is still doing these? I've reached out a number of ways and a number of times, and never heard back....

Anyone have one that they aren't going to use?

Anyone know what part Russ was using to create them? I'm pretty sure it was a VW part, just not sure what?

Any help greatly appreciated

Thanks!
Rian

[TXeverydayDad]

I never got a response from TJ for more than 6 months, even with several follow-ups. I went with Frank’s (i.e.427) turn signal instead.

[danmas]

I have one from Frank as well. You can pop over to take a look at it if you like.

[Blitzboy54]

TJ has gone the way of finish line. Really too bad, Russ was a beloved member of this community. TJ is the opposite with his unprofessional behavior. Maybe he bit off more than he could chew but to just ignore everyone is a terrible business strategy. I hope he sells off that part of the business to someone else. My guess is he won’t.

Fortunately Frank stepped up, I have one of his units in route.

[i.e.427]

I have one of his units in route.

You do Jesse. Last I checked you should see it on Thursday.

Thank you all for the shout out!

Frank

[StangRacer]

Another vote for Frank's turn signal. I just sent my steering hub to him for machining...

[Mountain-Metalworks]

TJ has gone the way of finish line. Really too bad, Russ was a beloved member of this community. TJ is the opposite with his unprofessional behavior. Maybe he bit off more than he could chew but to just ignore everyone is a terrible business strategy. I hope he sells off that part of the business to someone else. My guess is he won’t.


Hey group,
I don't get out here often enough, but it seems I'm usually apologizing for such horrible communication about the parts we are making. And here I am again....

Unlike some others like Finish Line, our FFR parts are 100% a passion project, a side effort while running a fabrication business instead of this being THE business. I didn't bite off more than I could chew from a technical or manufacturing perspective, but I did wholly underestimate the ability to make it financially tenable at Russ' prices. He was doing it in retirement for fun, we wanted to take it on as fill-in work while still making a little bit of money. The tedious nature and extremely high-standards we have makes it a losing proposition at $365 unfortunately. We've made many dozens(just short of 100) of the turn signals and I'm confident that the recipients are extremely pleased with the quality that is (respectfully) even better than what Russ was able to produce based on higher quality tooling.

But to BlitzBoy's point, Yes our communication continues to be horrible. An unfortunate part of building parts at a loss simply because we love these cars. As for "selling off" that part of the business, there really isn't anything tangible to sell so I'm not sure how to respond. As mentioned, Frank has stepped in to offer a solution that he can build/sell with his other work at a price that makes sense for him. I have even sent some people to Frank that needed a signal ASAP and were OK with the differences in how that system looks/functions/attaches compared to the RT version. There are other systems from Dakota, etc... as well, again simply different on how they function and attach to the cars.

We will continue to make these signals at the high quality they are being delivered. As always, we NEVER request or accept money from anyone until a unit is actually shipping(literally the next day). We will continue trying to communicate better with potential customers(we've set a awfully low bar....), and we are working on ways to improve our ability to make them faster(i.e: actually profitable).

If there was a market for these units at a higher price point, say ~$450, it would be a different situation. We would be able to allocate more resources, more communication, and more time to the effort and make this an "actual" side business instead of a passion project. So for Blitz and others, what is the price point to get immediate feedback, great communication, and the same high quality(which we won't downgrade for a cheaper cost)? I'm being 100% honest here. Starting here in Dec/early Jan, I could dedicate more resources to achieve a different outcome, but it comes with a cost.
What is the cost that this community feels is acceptable?

Apologizing as always for our poor communication,
-TJ


Pic from our current batch which is 95% complete as of this past Friday.
207295

[cv2065]

Another one for Frank.

[Papa]

If there was a market for these units at a higher price point, say ~$450, it would be a different situation. We would be able to allocate more resources, more communication, and more time to the effort and make this an "actual" side business instead of a passion project. So for Blitz and others, what is the price point to get immediate feedback, great communication, and the same high quality(which we won't downgrade for a cheaper cost)? I'm being 100% honest here. Starting here in Dec/early Jan, I could dedicate more resources to achieve a different outcome, but it comes with a cost.
What is the cost that this community feels is acceptable?


I wasn't going to jump into this discussion until I saw this response. This isn't how you win over your target market. These are a very niche products sold to a very small market. If it were my business, I'd be pricing the product at a point that I wasn't loosing money and still making a bit of profit (~3-5%). If the price is too high, you'll know soon enough. Providing inferior service because there isn't enough profit in it tells me that you probably should just stop and cut your losses as reputation is very important to this community.

[JimStone]

Trying to figure out this turn signal thing has been the most stressful of any part on the car. So would I pay a higher amount simply to get this done and over? Yes.

But would I pay a premium for the simple courtesy of having my email returned?

Uh, no

[PNWTim]

What's interesting about all of this is I never knew the original price so he could've sold it to me for virtually any number I deemed reasonable and I wouldn't have batted an eye. Handmade and engineered products are expensive but if the price point is simply too high, demand will go down and that will be that. I would have much preferred he came out of the gate and said "our new price is X and our delivery window is 3 weeks" rather than the full ghosting. I didn't receive a single response to any of my inquiries. Curious which customers are receiving the dozen he pictured, certainly not me.

I am sure Frank's offering is a quality unit, I just can't get past the stalk and the bulkiness of it. Maybe someone can do a side by side comparison of the units but I have always felt the RT unit was more elegant.

[StangRacer]

You can change the stalk on Frank's turn signal...

https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/relatedvideo?q=ie+427+garage+turn+signal&mid=4448401622F67AFAFC954448401622F67AFAFC95&FORM=VIRE

[Blitzboy54]

What's interesting about all of this is I never knew the original price so he could've sold it to me for virtually any number I deemed reasonable and I wouldn't have batted an eye. Handmade and engineered products are expensive but if the price point is simply too high, demand will go down and that will be that. I would have much preferred he came out of the gate and said "our new price is X and our delivery window is 3 weeks" rather than the full ghosting. I didn't receive a single response to any of my inquiries. Curious which customers are receiving the dozen he pictured, certainly not me.

I am sure Frank's offering is a quality unit, I just can't get past the stalk and the bulkiness of it. Maybe someone can do a side by side comparison of the units but I have always felt the RT unit was more elegant.

Depends on what your looking for. The stalk is changeable but for me Franks setup is preferable because the style of my build.

[PNWTim]

Good to know, thanks guys. I will dig a little deeper.

[i.e.427]

I am sure Frank's offering is a quality unit, I just can't get past the stalk and the bulkiness of it. Maybe someone can do a side by side comparison of the units but I have always felt the RT unit was more elegant.

There is little that I am going to do to change preconceived impressions of our product. However, you do realize that our machined hub is smaller in diameter and almost a full 1/2" less in thickness? If the handle on the end bothers you, it can easily be changed out with a $12 Mustang handle from ebay. I guess it's a love it or hate it thing, and that's OK.

Frank

[PNWTim]

There is little that I am going to do to change preconceived impressions of our product. However, you do realize that our machined hub is smaller in diameter and almost a full 1/2" less in thickness? If the handle on the end bothers you, it can easily be changed out with a $12 Mustang handle from ebay. I guess it's a love it or hate it thing, and that's OK.

Frank

Frank - really appreciate you ringing in. I don't really have any preconceived impressions just those from pictures. I did not realize it's smaller in both dimensions which is really valuable information. I will confess, I do not care for the stalk but if it's that easy to change that's a game changer for me. Thanks again.

[danmas]

You can change the stalk on Frank's turn signal...

https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/relatedvideo?q=ie+427+garage+turn+signal&mid=4448401622F67AFAFC954448401622F67AFAFC95&FORM=VIRE

How cool is it that the manufacturer of a product takes time to teach you how to modify it? That’s the way you win your target market.

[PNWTim]

I just watched all of Frank's videos and frankly (ok some pun intended) I am very impressed. I think I initially got hung up on a couple of meaningless details which have since been dispelled. I can't imagine any reason for any of us to subject ourselves to a vendor who won't respond, doesn't apparently care and wishes they were doing something else.

[oxbow]

Just bringing this back to see if anyone knows what VW part number or model/year Russ was using. My original Russ Thompson turn signal is acting up after 15 years and I'd like to do a one for one swap (of course, with a few necessary modifications). I really don't want to go through the painfull process of reworking every for a completely different set up.

Thanks!

[burchfieldb]

I used this when I made mine.

213030

and I believe it is the same as this and what Russ used.

213031

You have to cut off the VW stalk and make provisions to attach the new stalk.

[oxbow]

Thanks for the reply! The one in your first attachment was what Russ used in the early versions. I know because I had one of his originals and had trouble right out of the gate, so Russ, being the great guy that he was, sent me a new, updated version as a replacement. He needed to modify my steering hub again to accommodate the new turn signal switch, which looks like the one in your second attachment. It lasted nearly 15 years.

How did you modify/provision for turn stalk?

[weendoggy]

Thanks for the reply! The one in your first attachment was what Russ used in the early versions. I know because I had one of his originals and had trouble right out of the gate, so Russ, being the great guy that he was, sent me a new, updated version as a replacement. He needed to modify my steering hub again to accommodate the new turn signal switch, which looks like the one in your second attachment. It lasted nearly 15 years.

How did you modify/provision for turn stalk?

If your housing is still good, I believe you can just "de-gut" the new one to transfer. Been awhile since being into mine, still have one of the originals.

[oxbow]

If your housing is still good, I believe you can just "de-gut" the new one to transfer. Been awhile since being into mine, still have one of the originals.

The problem is the pawls/detents and springs are bent and the return spring won't stay in place so my housing is toast in my opinion.

[weendoggy]

When working with Russ, he made small wedge shape blocks that fit into the "cut off arm" of the original switch. Then it was screwed (pic) top/bottom and filled in around the cut area, sanded and painted. If you can remove your wedge out with the arm, you can put it in the replacement arm, cutting it in the same area. You don't need to buy a dimmer switch becasue he used two small wires to the button, which you run to a relay for your needs. Or, you don't use the button. Just a thought.

213101

[oxbow]

When working with Russ, he made small wedge shape blocks that fit into the "cut off arm" of the original switch. Then it was screwed (pic) top/bottom and filled in around the cut area, sanded and painted. If you can remove your wedge out with the arm, you can put it in the replacement arm, cutting it in the same area. You don't need to buy a dimmer switch becasue he used two small wires to the button, which you run to a relay for your needs. Or, you don't use the button. Just a thought.

213101

I noticed the "wedge" on the back of mine. You think I can remove the 2 screws and lift it out? Can the wedge and shaft be removed together?

[Rian_Colorado]

So I must admit, this whole thing still annoys me some. I really wish TJ would have improved the communication. Even if he had to increase the cost, I think there was a market for it. I've called, e-mailed etc. etc. But nothing in more than a year. I can't think that he's still doing any of these at all. I talked to TJ early on about helping him setup other items that Russ had too. I honestly was interested in taking it on if TJ didn't want to continue, but that's hard to do without some help from TJ. There seems to be a lot of knowledge and custom work that Russ was doing for these that in my research hasn't been easy to reverse engineer. I THINK that Frank at some point was kind enough to tell me what part that Russ had be using (you might ask him, he's a cool guy) - but even that might have been the "Rev-1" part referenced above. They also don't seem to be easy to find. I'm guessing that Russ may have had a connection on getting that switch part. I'm pretty certain the rest (stalk and push button, tube, mounting assembly.... etc) was manufactured by Russ in his shop.

So I actually have BOTH (a RT, as well as Frank's). Each are for separate projects. I like both of them for different reasons. To be fair - the one I have from Frank isn't fully installed yet, so unfair to compare them TOTALLY. Things I would say about the comparison:

1) The RT is all metal parts, where as ie427's is all plastic internals. I would worry about the wear, but honestly it's not going to get DD type usage, so probably not a big deal. Also, considering that Oxbow is having some failure points might indicate the ie427 could well be the better of the 2 here even (long term).

2) I'm partial to how the RT works for the button on the end of the stalk. I use that as my "brights" switch and REALLY prefer it. I know some people use the button on the side of the ie427 for this function, but I hit that damned button 70-80 times driving at night in a canyon in Colorado, so that's just not a realistic option for me. I'm in the process of amending my ie427 stalk to have a button on the end similar to the RT.

3) I love the fact the ie427's has the "pull" function of the stalk for the horn. Yes.... I COULD use that for the brights - but wouldn't it be nice to do BOTH? (fewer buttons on the dash too!)

4) I prefer the physical form of the RT. It is smaller in distance from the dash to the hub, and narrower AT the dash. This was important to me in the Daytona, as I had gone with larger diameter gauges, and there's just NO WAY that I could squeeze Franks switch in my setup. Frank has gone to a lot of effort making his housing fit flush with the dash though, so it looks more "modern/oem". I was looking at some backdraft, ERA, and other cars at a meet today actually, and can't believe how unappealing I think they are by comparison to Franks.....

5) Something that I'm worried about with Franks, that I have not been able to "test" yet - is signaling a lane change. It LOOKS to me like this switch is either "hard on" or off...... I don't know if you will be able to push up or down on the stalk to signal a lane change WITHOUT it clicking into self cancel mode (then requiring you to "turn it off"? Hopefully someone with the ie427 switch can chime in and let us know? Yes, I know (and agree) that this is probably picky, but I like things to work the way RIAN want's them too. Then again that's also why I'm building my own cars instead of buying a BD or a SP car......

Would be DAMNED nice to have some idea of what the actual part was in the event of a failure too. Oxbows situation is definitely a bummer!

Damned this hobby and it's effect on my anal-retentiveness......

Rian

[oxbow]

Rian - well said and thanks for the summary. I wish I could buy a replacement switch with the modifications already made for the RT setup but sounds like Tj is the only game in town for that. Although ie427s system looks and sounds pretty nice, I really like the look and feel of the RT system, it just looks "right" to me. In all fairness, I just sent TJ a PM and email today so I'll give him some time to respond before making any judgments or decisions.

[oxbow]

Also, I forgot to mention in my last post, a friend of mine who is a VW afficionado has identified the RT switch as a '66-'67 beetle unit.

[weendoggy]

I noticed the "wedge" on the back of mine. You think I can remove the 2 screws and lift it out? Can the wedge and shaft be removed together?

I believe you could, never tried myself. However, be aware it is "seamless" on the stalk side so there's not really a definate break, so to speak, and may take some easy elbow greast to remove. I do know that Russ had a contact and the switches just kept going up. As you know, the old VW's are collector items now and every part is $$$. A friend of mine in the business were talking awhile ago remeniscing about when we could get complete SB's for $200 and now it's like $2500.

I hear what everyone's saying about TJ. When Russ passed, it shocked a lot of us here. I helped coordinate all the stuff with TJ because he seemed sincere about taking it on. I met him at Russ's when we gathered up all the stuff. I too have reached out a lot to offere help, but now have just gone without contact due to his, to say the least, lack of interest. Seems counter productive to shell out $$$ to carry on and "give back" as he said, but that's his business, not mine. Part of me feels guilty to even have been involved in that process.

[edwardb]

The RT switch in my Coupe failed after a couple seasons (wouldn't self-cancel for left turns) so Russ asked me to return it and he would "tweak" it. Worked for awhile, but then failed again. Russ sold a me new mechanism for his cost and it's been OK since. I'm holding my breath a little. I played with the failed one and it's a relatively intricate mechanism with springs, pawls, detents, etc. Not friendly to work on and once it goes not easy to get back. I worked with Russ on several things over the years and what a gentleman he was.

Not to go too far off topic, but there's another option on the horizon. I suspect most have seen that Factory Five has incorporated a turn signal mechanism into the Mk5. It uses the super common GM style turn signal switch and plugs into the hot rod connector on the Ron Francis harness. Appears to be similar to how an iDidit column integrates into the Hot Rod and Truck builds. It too uses the GM turn signal switch. I like the idea because of the availability and (hopefully) reliability of the turn signal switch itself, plus how easy it is to plug into the harness. I don't know anything more than what's shown in the Mk5 build manual (page screenshot attached) plus the brief glimpse in one of the videos. Will learn more about it in the future.

213193

[oxbow]

Thanks everyone for your responses and vast knowledge. I'm fortunate enough to have an old unit that is inoperable that I got from Russ in the early days. I was able to remove the "wedge" from the housing and I'm going to try to adapt that into a VW switch I got from a body of mine. If it works, great, if not, no real loss. Either way, I'm going to explore some better, more long-term solutions. ie427s set up is pretty slick and I think I could be happy with it, but the new Factory Five Mk5 assembly might be a viable option too. More to come...

[phils88gt]

Part of me feels guilty to even have been involved in that process.

Glenn you shouldn't feel bad. I was the other guy that contacted you at the time but you were trying to keep the product going and someone was offering to take it on. The goal was to keep it available.

Phil