Pulled engine trepidation

[stuchman1]

Hi everyone,

My son and I are working on an MK4, planning gen 3 Coyote with the Tremec transmission. We're building in a one car garage so I delayed sourcing an engine until the point that we really need it, and now we're at that point.

We were planning on a crate engine but Ford isn't making gen 3's anymore. We already have gen 3 parts from FF so going with gen 4 and the required header mods / additional parts to make it work isn't something I want to get into.

There are some crate Aluminator gen 3's still available but for our recreational driving purposes, I'm not looking for the high-performance, substantially more expensive version of what we had planned.

So we're looking at pulled engines but we have no engine experience, so it makes me a bit uneasy to source an engine online, have it delivered, get it installed, and then if there are problems, we don't know how to figure out if it's an "us" installation problem or some problem with the engine itself, if it's not obvious. Basically the idea of getting into a complicated "you don't really know what you're going to get" project in getting a pulled engine is unsettling for us engine newbies.

Looking for the group's opinion on the feasibility as well as some wisdom before we dig into this!

Thanks!
ST

[CDXXVII]

Have you shopped around. Pretty sure you can still buy new gen 3 engines. Also, you can call Mike at Fortes Parts. Pretty sure he can help.

https://fortesparts.com/

https://www.livernoismotorsports.com/product/FRDM6007-M50C/ford-performance-gen-3-5-0l-coyote-460hp-mustang-crate-engine

[stuchman1]

There are none. All the websites still list crate gen 3's because Ford "temporarily" stopped manufacturing them early this year to get ready for gen 4, and said that they may come back late this year, so around now. At this point it's pretty clear that they're done making gen 3's. Mike Forte and the other people I've talked to in recent months all say that there are no more crate gen 3's (aside from Aluminator). They just haven't updated their websites, probably because it's not official from Ford yet.

[PNWTim]

Look at BlitzBoys current build thread. He just bought a reman Coyote from Ford (I believe) and it wasn't that long ago. Also, if you don't have your control pack yet I am not sure there are that many differences in the bits and pieces between a Gen 3 and 4 other than the funky header mount on one side.

[cob427sc]

I would try a reputable junk yard. They will normally provide at least a limited warranty on a recycled engine out of a wreck. You could also try one of the engine rebuilders who may have one in stock (Jaspers is one).

[Mike.Bray]

Have a look at these guys.

https://fraserengineco.com/5-0-liter-ford-coyote-engines/

[Jeff Kleiner]

Have a look at these guys.

https://fraserengineco.com/5-0-liter-ford-coyote-engines/

Realize that this is only a hard parts long block. It doesn't include coils, injectors, intake, sensors, etc. all of which you get with a Ford crate package or a running pull out.

Jeff

[stuchman1]

Super helpful. Thank you all. If I went with something like Fraser, how hard is it to get all those missing items together like sensors, intake, etc, and is it a lot of extra expense? Thanks!

[edwardb]

Super helpful. Thank you all. If I went with something like Fraser, how hard is it to get all those missing items together like sensors, intake, etc, and is it a lot of extra expense? Thanks!

Search YouTube for Coyote teardown and Coyote assemble. Then ask yourself if that's something you want to do. They are complicated engines. For experienced engine builders probably feasible. As a first time project (if that's you) maybe not such a good idea. At the price of service and/or aftermarket parts, it can't be cheap to finish one. Gen 3's have been out of production longer than some of the posts in this thread describe. The factory (Essex Assembly in Windsor, Canada) switched to the Gen 4 a couple years ago. Ford was selling the 2024 Mustang with the Gen 4 Coyote last summer. I went through this several years ago trying to source a Coyote for my Coupe build. Gen 2's were gone and Gen 3's took awhile before Ford Performance released them with the updated control pack. Same thing that's happening now with the Gen 4. If the same as the last go around, Ford Performance put a bunch of Gen 3's in their warehouse when they went out of production. So were are able to bridge the gap for awhile. But when they're gone, including all the ones at dealers, they're gone. There are places that sell salvage Coyotes with a limited warranty and generally can give you a description of what they came out of. Lots of guys do it and while not a sure thing like buying new, I think it usually works out OK if you do your due dilligence. Having said that, if I were building today, I'd go with a new Gen 4 crate. The differences with the single throttle body crate version Ford Performance is selling appears to be minimal. Other than more expensive. Like everything.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Super helpful. Thank you all. If I went with something like Fraser, how hard is it to get all those missing items together like sensors, intake, etc, and is it a lot of extra expense? Thanks!

It winds up being a lot of parts and no small expense. As Paul said there are many sellers offering full drop outs from late model, low mileage Mustangs. These generally include everything (most times more that we actually need for our applications) and some of them actually show videos of the engine running in the car before it was pulled. Here's one example (no affiliation; at a friend's recommendation I was simply perusing this site for a 2015+ IRS).

https://midwaymustang.com/collections/engines-drivetrains-1/products/2022-mustang-5-0-coyote-gen-3-engine-drivetrain-10r80-automatic-auto-15k-mi-1

https://midwaymustang.com/collections/engines-drivetrains-1

A couple of years ago I helped a friend with his Coupe build and we used a 15K mile Gen2 pull out. We plugged in the Ford control pack, it fired right up and has run perfectly. Sorry, I don't recall the source offhand but can find it if you like (I think it came out of Tennessee). I wouldn't be afraid to go that route again using a vendor with a proven record.

Good luck,
Jeff

[CraigS]

One thing to consider is this, is it worth it long term to go w/ an already out of production model w/ questionable future support? Or would you be better off going for a G4 that is still in the relatively early stages of it's life and has full support from Ford.

[stuchman1]

So helpful. Thanks everyone for your input! I have more homework to do...

[rich grsc]

One thing to consider is this, is it worth it long term to go w/ an already out of production model w/ questionable future support? Or would you be better off going for a G4 that is still in the relatively early stages of it's life and has full support from Ford.
Craig, we are still using engines from the 60's, 70's ,80's, etc . There is no risk of support for such a popular engine.

[Lidodrip]

I sourced a 2017 Gen 2 (running) full drop out from a rear end wreck that had 15k miles. I found the engine on Car-Part.com and then did my due diligence about the vendor before purchasing. The purchase/shipping went very smooth, engine looked to be in good condition, and it fired up on first try using the Ford control pack. I have about 3k miles on it and it runs great. The engine also came with several extra parts that I didn't need (AC compressor, headers, etc) that I was able to sell on eBay for more than I expected. Total cost was about half of a new crate engine. I would not hesitate to go this route again.

James

[CraigS]

Rich I understand. But an old V8 w/ a carb, any of dozens, or aftermarket efi, is a different animal from a Coyote that needs a Ford control pack. I think that is especially true for someone who isn't real well versed in a modern engine control system.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Rich I understand. But an old V8 w/ a carb, any of dozens, or aftermarket efi, is a different animal from a Coyote that needs a Ford control pack. I think that is especially true for someone who isn't real well versed in a modern engine control system.

If the OEM quits supporting them the aftermarket is out there and already offers controls for various generations of Coyotes, LS, and Chrysler Hemis.

Jeff

[Rian_Colorado]

Just an FYI. I talked to Mike Forte, and did a little research on the gen4 coyote. Ford actually now sells it with a single TB intake as a crate motor. It reduces the HP by 20, but that means it's essentially a Gen 3. They also sell a dedicated ECU setup for this application.
You can get the entire setup for a very reasonable price, all bolted up and ready to drop in. You should call Forte if you're interested in this route!

[topherchrisb]

Just an FYI. I talked to Mike Forte, and did a little research on the gen4 coyote. Ford actually now sells it with a single TB intake as a crate motor. It reduces the HP by 20, but that means it's essentially a Gen 3. They also sell a dedicated ECU setup for this application.
You can get the entire setup for a very reasonable price, all bolted up and ready to drop in. You should call Forte if you're interested in this route!

This is what I did. It's called the gen4x and does have some slight differences. One mentioned is the header bolt pattern and specifically on the drivers side. I had ordered the headers with cats for my coyote kit a few years ago. Bummer... but good news is the new bolt pattern matches up with the 5.2L engines they have been producing for years. I ordered a 5.2L header flange in raw steel and will take it and the header into an exhaust shop once I verify fitment when I get the engine. Another difference is the oil pickup. These engines started shipping in August but there was interference with the typical moroso oil pan that goes on these packages. I don't know what the final solution was but that was the major delay between then and the engines being able to leave Mike's shop. They shipped my package out last Friday and it's in Denver already(I live about 20 miles north) but I can't pick it up till Monday the 2nd.