Anyone Running A Z2363 Ford Performace Crate?

[Doc76]

Looking for input from those with experience with this motor in the FFR Mk4.
https://performanceparts.ford.com/part/M-6007-Z2363FT

I am aware of many of the pros on this crate (same headers, deck height, few inches narrower, etc) vs the 427.
Any cons to consider?

[gbranham]

I'm curious why you'd go this route over the 427 Boss crate. It's a $1000 and 40lb difference, and nets about 30 HP more. Perhaps most important, it's 351-based, and not 302 based, so not nearly as poked out as the smaller block. Seems much safer. I'd say that's the biggest con in my book. I know the Boss blocks are stout.

Greg

[Doc76]

I'm curious why you'd go this route over the 427 Boss crate. It's a $1000 and 40lb difference, and nets about 30 HP more. Perhaps most important, it's 351-based, and not 302 based, so not nearly as poked out as the smaller block. Seems much safer. I'd say that's the biggest con in my book. I know the Boss blocks are stout.

Greg

Hey there Greg
Thanks for weighing in. Ya lots to consider so bear with me as I’ve managed to determine 347 is out for me so I’m left with 363 or 427.
I was planning to use a Holley Hi Ram intake with the Terminator EFI setup (LS look) so the lower deck height was a plus in the 363. The planned intake would fit without issues. Also it’s narrower width wise and lighter as you pointed out.
And then there are the headers. My headers already come super close to the corner of the drivers side footwell box. I could reuse mine with a 363.
My understanding is I would need new headers with a 427 so it’s not just the cost of $1k (usd) to consider in the engine. I’ve priced it out and for us in Canada that cost comes out to ~$2k (cad) for the engine (363 vs 427).
Then the cost of headers. Cost of new headers for me up in Canada would add another ~$1300-1600 CAD (say Gas-N or FFR SS headers)
So I’m actually pushing close to $4k CAD difference in price for the 427 vs 363.

Unfortunately for us in Canada the$ conversion has to be considered in everything we do :(
Also If the higher deck height is an issue with the 427 and my plan to use a Holley HiRam setup, then I am into the time and cost to customize the hood scoop to gain the clearance

Here is another simple example. I recently ordered 10’ of the McMaster Carr 1120A562 bulb seal to repair a piece I had damaged. This is the standard edge mold in our kits. By the time I got it to my door (taxes, shipping and item cost) it was $72 USD (~$100 CAD) for 10’ of edge molding. Crazy I know but north of the boarder all things we have to consider.

Then there are the cooling issues I read so much about with the 427. I know there are a lot of guys out there that have no issues at all, but there are certainly a lot of guys out there commenting on the struggles they experience keeping the 427 cool (adding auxiliary fans, ducting, etc)

My understanding is the 363 will spin up faster and perform better in the higher RPM range?
I’ve also read and heard that the larger 351 could require more maintenance?

Also there’s a consideration of future use. I’m curious about auto cross and it sounds like the smaller displacement motor is more desirable for that but I’ll look for you guys more experienced with these considerations to weigh in on.

All things to consider.

[David Williamson]

Mine is in a coupe so the lower deck height was a major consideration. I have a Dart 363 that is almost the same as the Ford Boss block engine. The aftermarket blocks are designed to be built as stroker engines so running a 4.125 bore and 3.4 stroke is Ok and can't be done on a stock block. Power wise unless you are racing there is always more. To me the difference is cost and ease of maintenance. If you are starting from scratch the 427 makes sense but you will need to change accessory drives and headers so the cost goes up. Spending a .71 cent dollar and the extra shipping all adds up.
I thought about selling my cars and building another or putting a bigger engine in my cobra but decided to hold off because of the cost.
Good luck and no wrong answer.
David W

[Jim1855]

I don't have direct experience with cooling the 427 using the FFR radiator but never had a problem with my former radiator / fan set up. But a friend has a supercharged 461 at 700 RWHP. He uses the FFR supplied radiator with a MK4 kit, so far no issues.

On spinning up faster I suppose the lighter crank in a 363 would be faster if it is lighter. Flywheel and clutch assembly will affect it too.

Jim

[Doc76]

I don't have direct experience with cooling the 427 using the FFR radiator but never had a problem with my former radiator / fan set up. But a friend has a supercharged 461 at 700 RWHP. He uses the FFR supplied radiator with a MK4 kit, so far no issues.

On spinning up faster I suppose the lighter crank in a 363 would be faster if it is lighter. Flywheel and clutch assembly will affect it too.

Jim
Are you guys running the FFR coolant tank?
It’s rather small volume wise however a nice looking piece.

[StangRacer]

Hey there Greg
Thanks for weighing in. Ya lots to consider so bear with me as I’ve managed to determine 347 is out for me so I’m left with 363 or 427.
I was planning to use a Holley Hi Ram intake with the Terminator EFI setup (LS look) so the lower deck height was a plus in the 363. The planned intake would fit without issues. Also it’s narrower width wise and lighter as you pointed out.
And then there are the headers. My headers already come super close to the corner of the drivers side footwell box. I could reuse mine with a 363.
My understanding is I would need new headers with a 427 so it’s not just the cost of $1k (usd) to consider in the engine. I’ve priced it out and for us in Canada that cost comes out to ~$2k (cad) for the engine (363 vs 427).
Then the cost of headers. Cost of new headers for me up in Canada would add another ~$1300-1600 CAD (say Gas-N or FFR SS headers)
So I’m actually pushing close to $4k CAD difference in price for the 427 vs 363.

Unfortunately for us in Canada the$ conversion has to be considered in everything we do :(
Also If the higher deck height is an issue with the 427 and my plan to use a Holley HiRam setup, then I am into the time and cost to customize the hood scoop to gain the clearance

Then there are the cooling issues I read so much about with the 427. I know there are a lot of guys out there that have no issues at all, but there are certainly a lot of guys out there commenting on the struggles they experience keeping the 427 cool (adding auxiliary fans, ducting, etc)

My understanding is the 363 will spin up faster and perform better in the higher RPM range?
I’ve also read and heard that the larger 351 could require more maintenance?

Also there’s a consideration of future use. I’m curious about auto cross and it sounds like the smaller displacement motor is more desirable for that but I’ll look for you guys more experienced with these considerations to weigh in on.

All things to consider.

The exhaust ports on the original "Z" heads were not in the stock location. They are slightly raised much like a TFS High Port. I am not sure about the new "Z2" heads...

The 363 should rev faster than the 427 due to the lighter rotating assembly. It will also carry the torque higher in the RPM range due to having shorter intake runners. The valve train will also maintain stability at a higher RPM due to the shorter pushrods. The other advantage of the 363 is that it is an overall lighter engine because of the reduced deck height. All of this, of course, is comparing how each engine is currently built coming from Ford... Honestly though, unless you are a pro driver and looking for a max effort engine build, I think you are splitting hairs.

[TBull]

I'm curious on your decision. I went with the big bore 347 which has the same piston as the 363. I chose the dart block for mine over the boss block due to the longer skirt length of the cylinders. The boss block fully covers the piston on a 331 but with the longer 3.4 length rod, the piston is slightly unsupported and can wobble a little at the bottom of the stroke. That is the only drawback I saw. I went through Ford Strokers for my engine build and Jim built exactly what I wanted. I plan on using the Dart block again for my next build and it will be for the 363 as well. Plus I'm very interested in the Holley High Ram fitting under the hood of the Cobra. You've said it will fit and the techs at FFR agree, but I'm concerned about the placement of the throttle body. Curious if you have any hard data for the fit because I'd love to put that piece in my Milano.

[Doc76]

I'm curious on your decision. I went with the big bore 347 which has the same piston as the 363. I chose the dart block for mine over the boss block due to the longer skirt length of the cylinders. The boss block fully covers the piston on a 331 but with the longer 3.4 length rod, the piston is slightly unsupported and can wobble a little at the bottom of the stroke. That is the only drawback I saw. I went through Ford Strokers for my engine build and Jim built exactly what I wanted. I plan on using the Dart block again for my next build and it will be for the 363 as well. Plus I'm very interested in the Holley High Ram fitting under the hood of the Cobra. You've said it will fit and the techs at FFR agree, but I'm concerned about the placement of the throttle body. Curious if you have any hard data for the fit because I'd love to put that piece in my Milano.

As things would have it life (and the car) have run amuck. I am in the process of rebuilding the rear end and running a whole new brake system along with fixing a bunch of front end items done not-so-right on the car.
Having said that, everything I am doing is with increasing power kept in mind.
When I do, i will go with the 363/Tkx combo with the HiRam. I measured based on all info available and I don't see why it wont fit. If it wont I am prepared to modify (raise) my scoop accordingly
In my neck of the woods its basically the same $ to go 347 and 363 once you go after market block. to step up into a 351w (427) I would have to add ~$15k CAD.

It will be some time, perhaps even next winter at this point, but when I do, I will post an update on how it all works out. I finally found someone local here that I think is capable of taking that on with me.

[TBull]

Thanks for the information. Yeah I'm trying to look at Retrofitting and REALLY don't want to mess with my hood. The change-over would not be inconsequential for me by the time you add in the intake, throttle body, rerouting from the intercooler with new DS engine bay panel, etc. and the list goes on. I really liked the aesthetics and the cleaner lines as well. If it was just a matter of a new scoop, then that's one thing, but cutting into to hood and repainting the whole thing to match is daunting at this point. At the time I was building this intake wasn't available.

The 4.125 piston unshrouds the valve and you'll get a better air flow as a result. I totally understand keeping the deck height in check. I'm supercharged, so at the time I opted for the better rod angle of the 347 Big Bore since it uses the 331 crank and rod and I figured I'd just add more boost as needed. :rolleyes:

Good luck with your build and I look forward to seeing how it works out for you. I can always add the intake later.

[StangRacer]

I'm curious on your decision. I went with the big bore 347 which has the same piston as the 363. I chose the dart block for mine over the boss block due to the longer skirt length of the cylinders. The boss block fully covers the piston on a 331 but with the longer 3.4 length rod, the piston is slightly unsupported and can wobble a little at the bottom of the stroke. That is the only drawback I saw. I went through Ford Strokers for my engine build and Jim built exactly what I wanted. I plan on using the Dart block again for my next build and it will be for the 363 as well. Plus I'm very interested in the Holley High Ram fitting under the hood of the Cobra. You've said it will fit and the techs at FFR agree, but I'm concerned about the placement of the throttle body. Curious if you have any hard data for the fit because I'd love to put that piece in my Milano.

The cylinder wall length of the Boss block is a non-issue as long as the pistons have the correct break point. The cylinder length does become more important the larger the bore but considering Ford has been producing these 363's for some time it is nothing to worry about...

Now, having said the above... if I were purchasing a new block and given the choice of the Dart or Boss, and the cost was reasonable comparable, I would buy the Dart due to the longer cylinders.

[rich grsc]

That is opposite of the information given to me from my engine builder. When I started look for options foe blocks, Joe said both are good blocks but he favored the Ford because of the slightly long bore skirts.

[GoDadGo]

The Factory Five Daytona in this video was running a Ford 363 Crate Motor and 3.27 rear gear ratio.

https://youtu.be/V96-AQ1FghI

Hope This Helps!

[StangRacer]

That is opposite of the information give to me from my engine builder. When I started look for options foe blocks, Joe said both are good blocks but he favored the Ford because of the slightly long bore skirts.

Rich, the Ford Boss blocks, at least the 8.2 decks, definitely have shorter cylinder walls than a Dart, World, or even a stock block... I have never heard the official reason why they designed the blocks that way. When the 8.2 Boss blocks first came out lots of people were having issues with chewed up piston skirts in longer than stock stroke applications due to using pistons designed for use in a block with the longer cylinder walls. If one uses pistons with the break point moved up the skirt so it remains in the cylinder at BDC it's really a non-issue...

[Doc76]

Looks like the z2363 does not have enough vacuum to run the brake booster effectively.
I don’t like the idea of hydraboost as my brake system is al new. Rather not mess with it.
I guess the only other option is an electric vacuum pump like a rotary vane MP Brakes unit?
Also in case anyone was wondering the oil pan is 7.5” deep. When I measure my 302 that would put it 1/4” below the frame.

[Doc76]

Ended up going the BP 347/TKX route. Due to cost to import and complete the Z2 crate, ease of installation of the BP crate offering as well as after sales support, experienced builders in the forums community and the Z2 I felt had more unknown variables than I was willing, or had time to take on.

During this journey to “rebuild” this Mk4, I have started to consider a Mk5 ground up build with a BP427 package….perhaps after my C10 swap…. and retirement:)

Thanks all for the input on this decision