More importantly, where are we mechanically?

[Niburu]

While the discussion over what we'd like to see the car look like has be rousing fun, what about the rest of it?
Where the hell is FFR at developmentally with the car?
Is it at least moving under it's own power, maybe even stopping with a set of brakes?
I don't necessarily need a detailed account but something, anything, on how the rest of the car is doing would be nice to know.

[keys2heaven]

Dave mentioned in another thread last night that he owes us an update and is working on it. He mentioned that Jim's silver version is dead (at least it's present form).

[ScoobySnack818]

With the future success (or failure?) of the upcoming Subaru BRZ i hope that FFR engineering is thinking ahead to the use of the subaru/toyota engine with RWD transmission. A shorter/non existent driveshaft would be required, given the MR mounting configuration. I would assume they are trying to keep it as modular as possible back there since they mentioned the possibility of other engines like the VW turbodiesel options.

[Niburu]

With the future success (or failure?) of the upcoming Subaru BRZ i hope that FFR engineering is thinking ahead to the use of the subaru/toyota engine with RWD transmission. A shorter/non existent driveshaft would be required, given the MR mounting configuration. I would assume they are trying to keep it as modular as possible back there since they mentioned the possibility of other engines like the VW turbodiesel options.

that would make this kit WAY too expensive

[Draco-REX]

Not to mention it would push the engine up into the passenger cabin. The AWD transmission works because the axles exit right behind the clutch. With the RWD transmission, the engine would have to be pushed forward the entire length of the transmission, plus coupler, plus diff. We're talking feet, not inches.

To get the BRZ engine into the 818, someone would have to come up with an adapter plate to attach the AWD bell housing to the FA20.

[PhyrraM]

...., someone would have to come up with an adapter plate to attach the AWD bell housing to the FA20.

That's only if it doesn't already match. The prototype "glass car" from Subaru showed a new bellhousing, but I haven't seen anything from a production/preproduction photo that shows the bellhousing actually changed. Did the bellhousing change for the new Forrester or Impreza FB motors? That's going to be the biggest bellweather.

[Draco-REX]

That's only if it doesn't already match. The prototype "glass car" from Subaru showed a new bellhousing, but I haven't seen anything from a production/preproduction photo that shows the bellhousing actually changed. Did the bellhousing change for the new Forrester or Impreza FB motors? That's going to be the biggest bellweather.

It would be nice if it bolted right up. But preliminary looks under the car have led people to believe that the transmission is a Lexus "Altezza" unit instead of a one-off, which matches the rear diff which is from an is300. So I'm doubtful it will be directly swappable.

[PhyrraM]

Ah, true.

So the question becomes....Did they "custom" cast the engine case(s) or the transmission case? I think I'd still *guess* the transmission, but I'm sure it all depends on costs. Another factor is if the addition of DI required engine case changes anyways (fuel pump)....then it stands to reason that the engine casting also had the transmission change.

[PhyrraM]

As far as the chassis.

From what I have seen on the SEMA pictures, enough was done that we won't likely see another version until a body is well under way.

The only glaring "defects" in the prototype chassis were the bracing bar between the seats, the high seating/fuel tank dellimma, and the possibly difficult entry and exit caused by another pair of bracing tubes. All of those items can't be properly addressed until you start trying to merge the chassis with a body/design (which requires picking a body/design). Other than that, all that was left was "connect-the-dots" type of stuff. (Axles, wiring, fuel lines, brakes, etc).

While it would be REALLY cool to see a running gocart, in the end I'd rather see the efforts go into solving the few issues that remain. In fact, I'm sure that many of these things have aready been or are being addressed. The tipoff that they are close will be when we see a chassis picture with body mounting tabs......now that WOULD really be cool.

[Join]

Hi!

Do anyone want to share a lot of pictures from the "gocart" of the 818? I want to do some thinking.. :)

Thanks.

[BrandonDrums]

As far as the chassis.

From what I have seen on the SEMA pictures, enough was done that we won't likely see another version until a body is well under way.

The only glaring "defects" in the prototype chassis were the bracing bar between the seats, the high seating/fuel tank dellimma, and the possibly difficult entry and exit caused by another pair of bracing tubes. All of those items can't be properly addressed until you start trying to merge the chassis with a body/design (which requires picking a body/design). Other than that, all that was left was "connect-the-dots" type of stuff. (Axles, wiring, fuel lines, brakes, etc).

While it would be REALLY cool to see a running gocart, in the end I'd rather see the efforts go into solving the few issues that remain. In fact, I'm sure that many of these things have aready been or are being addressed. The tipoff that they are close will be when we see a chassis picture with body mounting tabs......now that WOULD really be cool.

Yeah, I initially expected a chassis with their big tubular chassis members like the 65' Roadster and Coupe. I don't care for the structural beams in the cockpit either but I think FFR envisioned a more streetable version of the Ariel Atom which is completely encircled by structural beams.

I wouldn't expect FFR to revise the chassis aside from body fitment tabs and tabs to mount a fuel cell. I'm afraid those beams are here to stay although if the tall greenhouse on Rodney's design is an indicator, they might have raised the seating position so those beams are level with the seat and only the portion enclosing the footbox would be a 'gressing' issue.

Regardless, I still hope FFR eventually provides a coupe version with structural members in the greenhouse so the cockpit bracing can be removed. For the roadster I just don't see how they could get rid of those without sacrificing rigidity or having to add weight in the form of large tubular beams under the car to replace the midship longitudinal rigidity they are for.

[Oppenheimer]

I'm thinking those door sill beams will be OK as they are. Similar to how it is with the GTM. Yes, they intrude more than on a normal car, the sill ends up as an angle instead of flat, horizontal, but does not impede entry/egress much. The sill beams are not higher than the seat. I think so long as the same holds true for 818 (which its difficult to say from just looking at the bare chassis shots), we'll be fine as is.

I think that is what FFR was going for when they came up with the 818 chassis design.

77017702

[Draco-REX]

I don't see a problem with the side bars where they are. They could even be a bit higher for more side protection. The seats I put into my WRX for RallyX have full height thigh bolsters. (Cobra Suzuka (http://www.cobraseats.com/Suzuka-Pro)) They are not that difficult to get into and out of; and I'm 6'4" 250lbs, far from a nimble little sprite. So having the door jamb come up as high as the seat or a bit higher is not a big deal.

[PhyrraM]

The difference between the GTM (along with alot of similiar cars) is the center tunnel. A tall and wide center tunnel can be made very strong and stiff. Virtually every Lotus ever built exploits this. The lack of a center tunnel on the 818 (in it's presented form) means that this lost opportunity for rigidity must be made up at the sides of the cockpit. Hence...the side bars and center "beam".

A closed box is very strong. A center tunnel is a closed box, a passenger compartment is an open box.

The type of chassis presented for the 818 so far is not very space efficient, but is reasonably cheap and simple. If you imagine the top view of the 818 frame, the wheels are completely outside of the frame with only a slight "pinch" as the frame progresses forward or rearward of the passenger cabin area. Be comparision, If you imagine the GTM, the frame is actually offset (sort of "Z" shaped) in towards center in front of and behind the cockpit and the result is that wheels only protrude past the frame a bit compared to the 818. This allows a wider cockpit that can accomodate the center tunnel for strength.

The issue I see with the current 818 frame is going to be a ton of wasted space in the sill area (unless the body is VERY curved/bulged for the wheels) and the harder ingress/egress associated with it. This is also the main reason why the passenger area is currently shoulder to shoulder. Because the track width is basically fixed as the same as a WRX you have to imagine what it might feel like if the WRX's interior was squeezed 8"-12" tighter (possibly more?). However, the up side is a simpler, less engineering dependant, lighter, and possibly stiffer frame.

[Niburu]

I still wanna know if FFR actually has something that is moving (and stopping) under it's own power.
I don't need a youtube video for it, just a simple yes or no.

[Bacon]

I am curiously awaiting technical details too. I am particularly concerned about the brakes, the stock brakes have quite a forward ratio to go with the forward weight distribution. Since the 818 will most probably have a rearward weight distribution I am wondering how FFR are going to achieve a proper brake balance using the stock calipers and master cylinder. Personally, since what I want is a track toy, I may just use aftermarket twin master cylinders with an adjustable balance bar. But for street oriented buyers this may not be a suitable solution.

Also the axles, I know that the splines are different front and rear, so it will require a custom axle with the front inner shaft and rear outer shaft. Is this a simple part swap or will it require custom parts to fit these together. I know that the rear R180 spindles (used on STi models) use the same splines as the front ones, this may be a solution that could accept the front axles without modifications, but they are bigger and heavier.

[skullandbones]

I think your description of the brake system is very doable for FFR because they have offered something similar in every type of model they offer. I don't know if they give a deep discount. I purchased from another vendor after getting the basic kit from FFR. I have it on the roadster and see that it would be completely transferable to the 818. I like the at the dash control to tweek the balance as you go (very good for changing track conditions). I also have a proportioning valve so you can make the gross adjustments and save the bias balance adjuster for finer adjustments. For me, having an identical pedal setup would make it nice going from car to car.

I'd also like to see a gokart video of what they have now. That wouldn't be too much to ask. WEK.

[BrandonDrums]

I am curiously awaiting technical details too. I am particularly concerned about the brakes, the stock brakes have quite a forward ratio to go with the forward weight distribution. Since the 818 will most probably have a rearward weight distribution I am wondering how FFR are going to achieve a proper brake balance using the stock calipers and master cylinder. Personally, since what I want is a track toy, I may just use aftermarket twin master cylinders with an adjustable balance bar. But for street oriented buyers this may not be a suitable solution.

Also the axles, I know that the splines are different front and rear, so it will require a custom axle with the front inner shaft and rear outer shaft. Is this a simple part swap or will it require custom parts to fit these together. I know that the rear R180 spindles (used on STi models) use the same splines as the front ones, this may be a solution that could accept the front axles without modifications, but they are bigger and heavier.

I could be wrong but I believe the front and rear CV joints are the same size so it's possible to just transfer the outer joint/output shaft from the rear axles of the wrx and boot them onto the fronts. That would leave you axles with the front inner sliding CV housing with outer joints from the rear axles making the 818's axle.

I don't know if you could do it the other way around as the inner CV joint for the front of an impreza has a sliding CV bearing that allows for the length of the axle to change as you turn the wheels. The inner joint housing of the impreza's rear axles might not fit the bearing/joint connected to the input shaft.

I do know you can frankenstein Half-shafts because that's one of the more common practices when swapping in an STI transmission into various other Subarus. It saves folks from having to switch to the 110mm bolt pattern hubs (therefore needing new wheels and having to buy brembos) and STI rear diff when dropping in a 6 speed making the job a LOT cheaper. Most subaru axles can interchange the splines one way or another with this practice.

[Bacon]

The rear inner cv housing is also a sliding one just like the front. I just checked on my 2.5RS and the outside diameter of the inner joints is the same front and rear, hopefully inside they are identical as well.

The outer joint is definitely bigger in the front than in the rear and will not swap.

I am aware of the hybrid half-shaft to use a R180 differential with R160 spindles, but all those that I heard who did that said they needed some custom parts to complete the assembly. I don’t mind using 5x114 hubs, they have beefier bearings and will last longer on the track.

[Cooluser23]

So no update on the mechanics?

[Niburu]

all signs point to us knowing more soon
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?5115-Project-818-Development-Thread