Andrew's MK4 Roadster Build Thread - Apr 11 Update

[AndrewIdaho]

Christmas in July -

Early this morning Eric from Stewart delivered my MK4 Complete Kit Roadster (1010989RD). See my intro thread https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?48375-Greetings-From-Idaho for the details of the specification. With my limited help, Eric was able to get the roadster and all 40 supporting boxes unloaded within 45 min. All that was missing was the chrome roll bars (not a surprise give the recent discussions on the forum).

Eric was courteous, careful and thorough and I was very happy with the whole delivery process. I would highly recommend Stewart if you need to have your FFR car delivered.

Some pictures are included below. Next step is inventory of all of the parts. After that the process will be slow until I retire at the end of the year.

Thanks, Andrew

202210 202212 202214 202216

[AndrewIdaho]

It has been a month since I received my roadster. As predicted, between work and looking after my mom who has dementia (my two other siblings and I split time as care givers) limits how much time I have had to work on it.

I have made progress:

a.) Inventory was completed with only a few nuts and bolts missing. It would have been more but, working with Madison at Factory Five (she did an awesome job helping me out), I discovered there were
changes in the fastener pack list between my manual and the current release of the manual. She pointed me to the pdf of the latest rev (5K) and there were some noticeable changes in the list that matched what I received.

b.) I also was able to complete the body buck following the design provided by Jazzman (https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?24433-Frame-Dolly-Plan-for-the-FFR-MkIV-Roadster Starting at post #14)
203285 203287

One question I have is whether I need to add a support brace as shown in yellow in the following picture. I have seen some bucks that have it and some that don't. Any insight would be appreciated.
203286

c.) Lastly, I have started work with the UCA taking measurements referencing Jeff Kleiner's photo ( https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?46143-Upper-control-arms%97-yes-again post #4 ) and reaching the
expected conclusion that I will also have to trim the adjusting sleeves by 1/4" each side to get the caster set correctly for my power steering implementation. I gave them to a friend who is good friends with a retired machinist who has a lathe in his garage to get them trimmed . I should have them back in a few days. I will re-measure and then decide if I need to trim the bolts.

Hopefully more next month.

Andrew

[gbranham]

No need to add that brace to your buck. In truth, they'd be fine just laying on the ground. You'll need to trim the UCA bolts, in addition to the adjuster sleeves.

Greg

[AndrewIdaho]

Thanks Greg for the insight,

Is there a recommended technique for trimming the UCA bolts to get a clean cut and avoid the risk of damage to the bolt?

Best Regards, Andrew

[gbranham]

Thanks Greg for the insight,

Is there a recommended technique for trimming the UCA bolts to get a clean cut and avoid the risk of damage to the bolt?

Best Regards, Andrew

Honestly, I think folks overthink this. I cut my sleeves and bolts with a hacksaw. It was a 10 minute task:

203311

[Windsor]

Is there a recommended technique for trimming the UCA bolts to get a clean cut and avoid the risk of damage to the bolt?

Cut it with whatever is available.

A bench grinder can clean up the end of the threads, just grind a short 45* taper on the end of the bolt after cutting.

Dremmel will work for this purpose, too, with sufficient time and effort.

[AndrewIdaho]

I have had more time to work on my roadster and so I have done a trial fit on the front suspension to assess if I need to trim the inner tie rods and to assess if I need the Breeze Offset Rack Mounting Kit before I place my order with Mark Reynolds for a series of items.

The following are pictures of the Driver Side and Passenger Side suspension that are set up as follows:
- Lower Control arms are parallel to 4" Tubes +/- 0.3 Degrees
- Upper Control arms are set per Jeff Kleiner's recommendation I referenced earlier in this thread (I cut the bolts as discussed).
- Bolts are hand tight or snug and are not torqued to spec (so I can disassemble the suspension if I need to trim inner tie rod as well as to install the F panels).
- Outer tie rods are threaded in as far as they can go.
- I centered the rack rotating fully clock wise and the rotating it 1 1/4 counter clockwise to set the center.

204127 204128

I measured the toe-in of the spindles as referenced to the vertical square tubes
- The driver side has 3/16 toe-in
- The passenger side has 9/16 toe-in

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Assuming that I have not incorrectly assembled something or my measurement setup is incorrect (please let me know if either of these is the case), I conclude:
a.) Given I have toe-in on both sides, I should not have to move the outer tie rods further in and so trimming of the inner tie rods is not needed.
b.) Given that the toe-ins are different between the two sides, the rack is not centered correctly (off by 3/16") and so using the Offset Rack Mounting Kit could be of help to get it centered.

Let me know if I have missed something.

Thanks, Andrew

[AndrewIdaho]

Hello All,

Sorry for the delay in posting as getting prepped for retirement kept me busy finishing off loose ends and training my replacement. I succeeded and I officially retired on Feb 28,2025 ( 2-3 months later than my goal). During this time I slowly worked on drilling panels and building sub assemblies such as the rear suspension, shocks and rear spindles. Panels to be powder coated are drilled and to be delivered to the PC on April 9 with a one week turnaround. My engine was ordered through Mike Forte (Ford Performance 302 with ProFlow4 EFI and TKX) with delivery requested in the early summer. This last week I worked on assembling the rear suspension to the frame without issue but getting the Driver Side CV Axle installed has me puzzled. I can get it into the differential but there is a 6mm gap vs the recommended 3mm. Below is a picture of where I am at. Is it close enough (other pictures on the forum show similar gaps) or is more persuasion with my 2lb dead blow hammer needed to get it moved in 3mm or do I need a bigger hammer?


212058

Thanks for looking.
Best Regards, Andrew

[gbranham]

I tapped mine gently with a deadblow. You're gonna love the ProFlo4.

[cv2065]

Hello All,

Sorry for the delay in posting as getting prepped for retirement kept me busy finishing off loose ends and training my replacement. I succeeded and I officially retired on Feb 28,2025 ( 2-3 months later than my goal). During this time I slowly worked on drilling panels and building sub assemblies such as the rear suspension, shocks and rear spindles. Panels to be powder coated are drilled and to be delivered to the PC on April 9 with a one week turnaround. My engine was ordered through Mike Forte (Ford Performance 302 with ProFlow4 EFI and TKX) with delivery requested in the early summer. This last week I worked on assembling the rear suspension to the frame without issue but getting the Driver Side CV Axle installed has me puzzled. I can get it into the differential but there is a 6mm gap vs the recommended 3mm. Below is a picture of where I am at. Is it close enough (other pictures on the forum show similar gaps) or is more persuasion with my 2lb dead blow hammer needed to get it moved in 3mm or do I need a bigger hammer?


212058

I think you're good. Mine measures 6mm as well. The small gap between the hub and where the differential starts is roughly 3mm or 1/8", which is what the instructions may be referring to. Just be sure to give each shaft a little tug to ensure that they are locked in.

[AndrewIdaho]

Thanks for yours and Greg's prompt replies. I tugged on it with all my strength and no movement. I was progressing past gentle blows and decided to stop and ask my question. I will proceed on and get the spindle mounted and then on to the passenger side. My thanks to both of you for your build threads as I am following them regularly and this newbie is learning a lot from them.

Best Regards, Andrew

[AndrewIdaho]

We have had a cold rainy spell in the Boise area over the last week and so I have had limited garage time. Consequently I have been working on the Fuel System and Power System design so I can source the appropriate components. This post is of the Fuel system design as shown in the attached jpeg:
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I would welcome critiques, question or suggestions.

Thanks, Andrew

[AndrewIdaho]

This is the Power system design that I mentioned in my prior post and is shown in the attached jpeg:
212152

I have added some additional items that require power over and above the standard items including ProFlow4 EFI, Wilwood Electronic Parking Break, Bluetooth Audio Amp, USB/Phone charger and seat heaters that have influenced the design.

The use of fuses in the alternator circuit that I have seen puzzle me as the fuse rating and wire gauge seem mismatched (e.g. Breeze offering). Insight would be appreciated.

Critiques, questions suggestions are welcome.

Thanks, Andrew

[AndrewIdaho]

Sleeping on my initial revision, I was not comfortable that the main feed had sufficient current capacity so I did some rough calculations/assumptions and decided to increase the battery feed gauge to 1. Also was not comfortable with gauge transition to starter being unfused so I addressed that. Updated Draft rev is attached:

212414

Comments, concerns or questions are welcome.

Thanks Andrew

[edwardb]

Sleeping on my initial revision, I was not comfortable that the main feed had sufficient current capacity so I did some rough calculations/assumptions and decided to increase the battery feed gauge to 1. Also was not comfortable with gauge transition to starter being unfused so I addressed that. Updated Draft rev is attached:

212414

Comments, concerns or questions are welcome.

Thanks Andrew

I would not recommend fusing the starter or the feed to the RF block. Not customary to fuse the starter. Questionable whether 150A is enough in some situations, plus potentially a safety issue. You don't want the fuse letting go at a bad time, e.g. in traffic or whatever. I wouldn't do it. As for the RF block, all the those individual circuits are fused. So no reason to have the potential to take out the whole bunch.

[AndrewIdaho]

I would not recommend fusing the starter or the feed to the RF block. Not customary to fuse the starter. Questionable whether 150A is enough in some situations, plus potentially a safety issue. You don't want the fuse letting go at a bad time, e.g. in traffic or whatever. I wouldn't do it. As for the RF block, all the those individual circuits are fused. So no reason to have the potential to take out the whole bunch.

Thanks for the review Paul, I greatly appreciate the insight. I have revised my diagram to remove the fuses, direct connect the starter to the cutoff switch post where the battery connects and updated the starter gauge to match the battery. I have provisionally left the fuse for the new fuse box in case space limitations force me to move the new fuse box to the trunk area. Updated diagram attached.

212432


Best Regards, Andrew

[AndrewIdaho]

I am making progress. The aluminum panels are at the powder coaters and should be back late next week. In the mean time, I have completed the rear suspension and brakes:

212533 212534

I then started to mount the rear FFR provided hard brake lines between the rear right side and rear left side. In trying to bend the coils I made a mess of things, kinking the line in several places. I have ordered a replacement ni-copp stick from AGS of a shorter length than the 60" provided with the current tube. I plan to run AN-3 bulkhead adapters for the brake and hydraulic clutch lines. So in the interim, to gain experience, I cut the steel tube that was messed up with a pipe cutter (the kind that rotates around) which seemed to go ok. I then tried an AN-3 Flare on the resulting tube segment with a Rigid 377 flaring tool and the following resulted:
212535

The edges seemed rough so I thought I did not deburr the pipe sufficiently. So I took more care to debur the end on second piece and it seemed to get better but it still seems a little rough:
212536

Is the rough edge from not deburring sufficiently or is there something else that I am doing wrong or is my second example acceptable?

Thanks for looking.

Andrew

[F500guy]

Make sure you are lubricating the piece well before flaring. But, that said, Ni-copp is usually not used for a 37 deg single flare. It can be done, but the metal is soft and if the line pushes out it could push thru the ferrule, resulting in a complete failure of the connection. I would recommend a double flare or use Stainless if you are doing bulk head fittings with a single flare.

[cv2065]

If you run into an issue with the flares, you can always get the pre-made flared sticks of Poly Armour brake lines at your local Autozone or Advance Auto. Takes a little more planning but I've used them on two builds and they are great quality and bend easily.

[Mike.Bray]

AN 37 degree flares should be done in seamless annealed stainless steel tubing. My AN flaring tool has rollers in it for both forming the flare and burnishing it after forming.

https://imperial-tools.com/products/400-f-37-rol-air-flaring-tools/

[Tango]

Andrew, if you have already run your fuel system then disregard. My initial layout looked a lot like yours and I slept on it, mocked it up, and decided that there were many, many unneeded components.….it now goes like this: fuel pump -> short line -> fuel filter -> shutoff valve -> pressure regulator (these are all directly attached in series, no hoses/lines). From the pressure regulator there is a 8”-ish return line back to the tank, and then a single line to the engine. The filter, manual shutoff, and pressure regulator are located where I can access them through the fuel pump hatch. I also plan to have a pressure gauge in line under the hood. My goal was to simplify the layout and (mostly) eliminate the return line. (Disclaimer: this is my first build, but I did consult with some forum regulars, and I am remaking that custom bracket)212539

[AndrewIdaho]

Thanks for the review Tango. I see you are running a Coyote and I have seen other posts where others are installing the regulator near the tank as you describe. I will be running a SBF 302 with Edelbrock ProFlow 4 EFI and I have not seen a similar installation for this EFI. Since I am newbie, I am reticent to blaze new ground by installing the regulator near the tank but if others have done this with success with the ProFlo4 I would consider the solution. My fuel system parts are on order but have not yet been installed so it is not to late to change.

Thanks, Andrew

[AndrewIdaho]

AN 37 degree flares should be done in seamless annealed stainless steel tubing. My AN flaring tool has rollers in it for both forming the flare and burnishing it after forming.

https://imperial-tools.com/products/400-f-37-rol-air-flaring-tools/


Make sure you are lubricating the piece well before flaring. But, that said, Ni-copp is usually not used for a 37 deg single flare. It can be done, but the metal is soft and if the line pushes out it could push thru the ferrule, resulting in a complete failure of the connection. I would recommend a double flare or use Stainless if you are doing bulk head fittings with a single flare.

Mike and F500guy thanks for the prompt responses and your insight into the use the AN-3 Adapter. As a newbie, I have a series of questions.

1. The second flare attempt on the coated steel line, I did use a lubricant but it was only chassis grease that I have on hand. Is there a preferred lubricant to use?
2. I do not intend to use ni-copp with the 37 degree flare but had intended to use the coated steel lines provided in the kit. Based on your responses, I have the impression that I should only use seamless annealed stainless lines for brake applications. Is this the correct understanding or is using the coated steel lines acceptable? If not why won't the coated steel lines work?
3. If I can only use stainless lines, I believe that this would force me to flare them with an 45degree double flare to interface with the kit provided tees and my reading of forum threads is that creating these double flares in stainless is a major challenge. The reason driving me to use AN-3 fittings is to connect to 90 bulk head fittings in the DS box as I would like a secure mount to the panels and to seal off the DS box as much as possible. I have been unable to find 90 degree bulk head fittings for the double flares and hence the use AN-3 bulk head fittings. Do 90 bulkhead adapters exist for the standard brake line double flares and if so where do I get them?

My thanks for your patience.
Best Regards, Andrew

[F500guy]

Well, here is my view:

1) I only use brake fluid for lubrication, grease and oil will leave contamination and you would have to ensure you are cleaning well.
2) There is a reason street cars use bubble and double flairs, IMHO I would only use stainless steel for 37 deg single flair for a street car
3) I am not aware of any that exist, I ran my brake line thru the aluminum panel with a rubber grommet and then back filled with black silicone, there is no leaks there.

[Mike.Bray]

I'll add some thoughts.

1) My flaring tool has rollers so no need for any lubrican so I can't comment.

2) Coated steel lines are most likely NOT seamless so these require a 45 degree double flare. For 37 degree AN single flares I'm only familiar with seamless annealed stainless tubing being used.

3) I doubt you'll have much luck trying to double flare stainless lines. I committed to stainless steel tubing and AN fittings many, many years ago when I discovered I did not have the talent to form double flares so I do not have any experience with SAE. With AN fittings I always use bulkhead fittings as it's just good practice. As they say, that's the "right way" to do it. You'll never see a hydraulic line passing though a bulhead without a bulkhead fitting on an airplane, helicopter, or a race car.

[AndrewIdaho]

Thanks Mike and F500Guy for the additional clarity.

It a shame no one seems to make 45 Degree Bulkhead fittings. I think I might experiment and see how well I do flaring and bending stainless with a 37 degree flare before I give up on the bulkhead fittings. This leads to a few follow up questions:

a.) Do you have a reliable source for the seamless annealed stainless tubing?

b.) Do you use a rotating tube cutter or something like a Dremel cutoff wheel to cut the stainless? (I have both of these but I am not sure if I need another tool.)

c.) How do you interface to the brass 45 degree tee junction where the left and right brake lines meet (is there a 37 degree equivalent or is it a AN-3 bulkhead tee junction)?

Best Regards, Andrew

[Mike.Bray]

This might help.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?45694-Stainless-Steel-AN-Brake-Lines

[AndrewIdaho]

This might help.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?45694-Stainless-Steel-AN-Brake-Lines

Thanks Mike! Very helpful- it covered all my questions.

Best Regards, Andrew

[AndrewIdaho]

The powder coater finished the panels and I picked them up late Tuesday. I was able to get the F-panels and Breeze Battery box mounted and then completed the front suspension. Waiting on a length of Earls 3/16 stainless tubing to arrive so I can try my hand at bending and flaring the stainless. Based on my experience, I will decide how to proceed with the brake lines. While I wait, next steps will be to work on the pedal box and steering system install.

DS Front Suspension: 212812

PS Front Suspension: 212813

Battery Box: 212814

Thanks for looking and comments always appreciated.

Andrew

[AndrewIdaho]

I made good progress over the last week. I got the Wilwood Front Brakes installed.
213115

One challenge was the top front bolts that held the caliper bracket to the spindle were impossible to torque down. I noticed that I had an set of bolts that had not been used nor identified for use that came with the kit in the box associated with the spindles or suspension (not sure which). They were the exact same diameter and thread pitch and just a hair shorter that then ones provide by wilwood.
213116

These bolts allowed me to get a socket head socket to fit cleanly and allowed me to torque the bolts to the Wilwood spec.
213117

I was also able to get the pedal box installed and adjusted. I have the brake pedal spaced 0.1" away from the cross bar a rest and the clutch pedal at the same height. I have the Breeze accelerator pedal roughly installed pending the install of the Forte throttle linkage.
213118 213119

I have the firewall and tunnel firewall (with cutoff switch) installed. This allows me to get some reasonable measurements to get the 1Ga battery cables ordered.
213120 213121

Comments welcome.

Thanks, Andrew

[Mike.Bray]

Are you planning on keeping those Wilwood master cylinders with all of the reported failures?

[AndrewIdaho]

Are you planning on keeping those Wilwood master cylinders with all of the reported failures?

I have not decided yet. Now that you ask, is the location of the reservoir and output ports the same as the Wilwood or are they in different locations for the Tilton that would impact the routing of brake lines and feed tubing? Do you have a recommended Tilton replacement(s) for my configuration?

Thanks, Andrew

[Mike.Bray]

There's quite a bit of good information in this thread.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?49560-Swapping-Tilton-MC-for-Wilwood-MC

I used the 76 series with banjo fittings but most are using the 75 series.

[AndrewIdaho]

There's quite a bit of good information in this thread.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?49560-Swapping-Tilton-MC-for-Wilwood-MC

I used the 76 series with banjo fittings but most are using the 75 series.

Thanks for the reference. I will read through the thread and see if I have questions.

Andrew

[AndrewIdaho]

Having read through the thread that Mike provided and it's referenced threads and ,over that last day or so thought about what has been shared, I have the following
observations/thoughts:

* Changing the MC once the build is completed: This can be done but it will be a significant challenge (aka a PITA) to get them swapped out as having to access them from the footbox as well as the top access panel.
* Differences between Wilwood and Tilton MC: It appears adapter fittings will be needed to transition between them. (Allocate $50)
* Which Tilton's: The closest match to the Wilwood MC that one would need to order appears to be the TIL-75-750U to replace the 2 brake MCs (3/4 bore) and the TIL-75-813U to replace the Forte clutch MC (13/16 bore).
This does not account for optimizations between front and read brake bore sizes that some but not many have done. This would set one back about $315 + Tax and Shipping
* Wilwood MC Reliability: Many have indicated that over the life of Wilwood MCs being provided by FFR many are happy with the Wilwood MC performance and life and FFR (and Forte) have not seen a need to recall or replaced them. On the other hand, I count about 10 builders in the recent past who have had issues with failures early in the life of MC (out of 2000-3000 kits shipped?). This leads me to conclude that there has been a change to either the design or manufacture of the Wilwood master cylinders in the last few years that has resulted in a degradation in reliability.

My emotional decision given the above: Though I hate to chew up ~$400 of the build budget to replace them, my wife and better half would never forgive me if I had an accident because I prioritized cost over safety. (Though the odds seem to be about 1 in 300, while not quite Russian roulette, this is a much higher risk than we are willing to take.) I will plan to place the order in a day or two, pending any feedback that indicates my analysis and understanding is erroneous.

Thanks, Andrew

[Mike.Bray]

This leads me to conclude that there has been a change to either the design or manufacture of the Wilwood master cylinders in the last few years that has resulted in a degradation in reliability.

That may be true but I had a Wilwood clutch MC fail on me 25+ years ago at about 500 miles. Replaced all of them with Tiltons and then the McLeod HTB failed. Replaced it with a Tilton.

[PMD24]

I replaced mine with the 75 series. If I had to do it over I'd go to the 76 series for the banjo fittings. I did use banjos on the pressure side. You just have to pay attention to the length of the banjo bolt so it doesn't bottom out before getting a proper crush on the washers.

[AndrewIdaho]

Thanks Pat. In looking at your build thread what did you use for hardline and the bulkhead fittings within the foot box?

Best Regards, Andrew

[PMD24]

Andrew, the hardline is 3/16 seamless NiCopp. Bulkheads are from Inline Tube. P/N HLF01T. They are 3AN on the footbox side and male inverted flare for 3/16 tube on the engine side. Note that the 3AN will be a 37 degree flare for 3AM ferruled tube nuts, while the IF side is 45 degree double flare.

[AndrewIdaho]

Andrew, the hardline is 3/16 seamless NiCopp. Bulkheads are from Inline Tube. P/N HLF01T. They are 3AN on the footbox side and male inverted flare for 3/16 tube on the engine side. Note that the 3AN will be a 37 degree flare for 3AM ferruled tube nuts, while the IF side is 45 degree double flare.

Hi Pat,

Thanks for the reference to the bulkhead fitting. With respect to the hardline, this newbie is now confused. Earlier in the thread, several forum members indicated I should not use NiCopp for 37 degree flare 3-AN fitting as it may not hold under pressure and I should stick to seamless stainless tubing. Have you experience that seamless NiCopp will work? Also many purveyors of NiCopp don't clearly indicate if their tubing is seamless or not - do you have a reliable source?

My thanks in advance and your patience with my questions as I am trying to learn.

Best Regards, Andrew

[Mike.Bray]

I have zero experience with NiCopp tubing but I did notice on this site they advertise seamless NiCopp tube. If it's seamless it's probably not going to split and if it holds up with 45 degree inverted flares I would think it will be more than capable with AN fittings and how they have a ferrule backing the flare up.

https://store.fedhillusa.com/316475mmbrakeline-2.aspx

[PMD24]

Andrew, prior to doing my 37 degree flares in NiCopp, I read everything I could find. I came to the conclusion that 37 degree flares are used with stainless because stainless does not work well for double flares. I wasn't able to conclude the reverse... that only stainless should be used for 37 degree flares. In fact you will see below that the FAA says use 37 degree on everything other than aluminum.

F500 noted in post 18 that the ferrule in a single flare could push through the Nicopp and the joint would then fail. I wasn't able to locate additional information on that. I did find information in the forum where 37 degree flares are used in fuel lines, but the pressure is much lower. I also found forum members who have used 37 degree flares in Nicopp brake lines and have not had any issues. I understand that doesn't mean its good practice.

What I did find was FAA documentation on materials and fittings for hydraulic systems. That document is AC43 13 1b. The info below is from paragraph 9-30

"In forming flares, cut the tube ends
square, file smooth, remove all burrs and sharp
edges, and thoroughly clean. The tubing is
then flared using the correct 37-degree aviation
flare forming tool for the size of tubing and
type of fitting. A double flare is used on soft
aluminum tubing 3/8-inch outside diameter
and under, and a single flare on all other tub
ing."

So, I went with the Nicopp and 37 degree flairs. There is a very specific way to do these with the Eastwood tool (with 37 degree dies) to ensure that you do not produce a thin wide flare.

We may want to pull this out of your build thread and post a separate thread to draw the attention of experts in this area, to get their input.

On the seamless Nicopp, I'll check where I got mine and let you know. FedHill is one resource I recall that supplies high quality seamless NiCopp.

Pat

[PMD24]

Somehow I missed Mike's post before mine. I see he mentions FedHill as well.

[AndrewIdaho]

Hello Mike and Pat,

Thanks for the responses with the reference to FedHill for source of seamless NiCopp.

I went to the FedHill site and see that the proprietor has had family emergency and will be not processing orders through mid-May. All of their seamless NiCopp shows no stock (not sure if that is related to being away). A little googling finds that ASTM B466/B466M-18 specifies the requirements for seamless NiCopp so it allows me to sort through other vendors NiCopp to see if it is compliant to this spec.

Pat thanks for the detail on your investigation into using NiCopp with AN fittings including the reference to the FAA document. Your suggestion to create a distinct thread to further discuss this topic makes sense. I will pursue this path depending on my experiments in flaring and bending the Earls stainless tubing that arrived late Friday (expensive experiment as it is $50 for a 4 foot section). If I am successful, I will use the stainless within the foot box and for the rear line. If I am not successful, I will create the new thread to get further input.

My thanks for your time in helping me sort this out.

Best Regards, Andrew

[AndrewIdaho]

Hello All,

While waiting for the Tilton MCs to arrive, I made good progress on getting the components that mount to the firewall installed including Heater, Fuel Regulator, Forte Throttle Linkage and Brake Fluid Reservoirs (not the firewall but close).
I also received the prebuilt 1 Ga High power cables and fuse blocks I ordered and got them provisionally located. I found that the main battery cable was about 3-4 inches too long so I need to shorten it. The hand drawn lines are cables to be built using the FFR provided 4Ga wire.

213386

213389

213384

I also got most of the passenger foot box panels attached (Side and bottom still to do).

213385

Comments, questions and suggestions are welcome.

Best Regards, Andrew

[PMD24]

Andrew,

Some follow-up on post 42...

One of my Nicopp purchases was from The Stop Shop. It is seamless J1650. It is also stamped C70600 which is a standard for 90/10 Copper Nickel.

The other purchase was from the Advance Auto. It is also J1650 seamless. The label states NiCopp but also notes "Cu-Ni-Fe". This labeling may be there to cover the fact that the C70600 standard allows for trace amounts of iron.

Let us know how you make out with the stainless.

Pat

[AndrewIdaho]

Andrew,

Some follow-up on post 42...

One of my Nicopp purchases was from The Stop Shop. It is seamless J1650. It is also stamped C70600 which is a standard for 90/10 Copper Nickel.

The other purchase was from the Advance Auto. It is also J1650 seamless. The label states NiCopp but also notes "Cu-Ni-Fe". This labeling may be there to cover the fact that the C70600 standard allows for trace amounts of iron.

Let us know how you make out with the stainless.

Pat

Pat,
Thanks for the Nicopp references.
My goal for tomorrow is to work with the stainless and I will respond with the results.
Andrew

[AndrewIdaho]

Hello All,

As mentioned yesterday, today I made my first attempt at building a stainless steel brake line. All in all it went better than I anticipated. Critical critiques of the attached photos are welcome. My Tilton MCs are due to arrive tomorrow or Wednesday and once installed, I will finish the bends and the final flare assuming the feedback I receive on my work encourages me to do so.

213423 213424
213425 213426

Also I got the 4Ga battery cables built and trial fitted:

213427


Thanks, Andrew

[F500guy]

Great info, thanks for that. I always heard it was not allowed on cars DOT kind of stuff.

[Mike.Bray]

Hello All,

As mentioned yesterday, today I made my first attempt at building a stainless steel brake line. All in all it went better than I anticipated. Critical critiques of the attached photos are welcome. My Tilton MCs are due to arrive tomorrow or Wednesday and once installed, I will finish the bends and the final flare assuming the feedback I receive on my work encourages me to do so.

213423 213424
213425 213426

Also I got the 4Ga battery cables built and trial fitted:

213427


Thanks, Andrew

Nice looking flare, take a bow!

[cc2Arider]

Nice work Andrew!

It's good that you're thinking thru all the critical systems now...especially on the firewall. Between that area and the fuse panel area a lot is going on in limited space!

Craig C

[BUDFIVE]

Andrew, I used 316L stainless for my brake lines with Earl’s SS 3AN fittings. I also used 316 (not L so really tough to work with) for my fuel lines with Earls aluminum 6AN fittings. I too got some guidance and encouragement from Mr Bray. It was challenging to bend and to seal but I’m thrilled with the finished product. Post #28 in my build thread
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?47734-BUDFIVE%92s-CenTex-Build-Gas-Cap-Roll-Bar-Doors-QJs

A couple things I learned-these may be touched on by Mike’s write up but I want to highlight:
1) The quality of the cut and chamfering/deburring of the end after cutting is key. It is important to cut square with a saw (blade or composite) not a tubing cutter-a tubing cutter work hardens the end of the line which makes it brittle and prone to cracking, ruining the end of an annealed line..
2) Seamless tubing may still have seams that are annealed or double annealed. If I had a flare split, it was usually on a line section where I could see where the “seam” had been.
3) the flare and ferrule backing must be held in alignment with the fitting during tightening. I had to tighten the fittings tighter than I anticipated as SS isn’t soft like Nicop. So, it’s important to use anti gall/seize lubricant on the threads. All leaks were fixed by loosening and realigning the fitting.

Good luck-I’m enjoying your build updates

[AndrewIdaho]

Nice work Andrew!

It's good that you're thinking thru all the critical systems now...especially on the firewall. Between that area and the fuse panel area a lot is going on in limited space!

Craig C

Thanks Craig for the support. Andrew

[AndrewIdaho]

Andrew, I used 316L stainless for my brake lines with Earl’s SS 3AN fittings. I also used 316 (not L so really tough to work with) for my fuel lines with Earls aluminum 6AN fittings. I too got some guidance and encouragement from Mr Bray. It was challenging to bend and to seal but I’m thrilled with the finished product. Post #28 in my build thread
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?47734-BUDFIVE%92s-CenTex-Build-Gas-Cap-Roll-Bar-Doors-QJs

A couple things I learned-these may be touched on by Mike’s write up but I want to highlight:
1) The quality of the cut and chamfering/deburring of the end after cutting is key. It is important to cut square with a saw (blade or composite) not a tubing cutter-a tubing cutter work hardens the end of the line which makes it brittle and prone to cracking, ruining the end of an annealed line..
2) Seamless tubing may still have seams that are annealed or double annealed. If I had a flare split, it was usually on a line section where I could see where the “seam” had been.
3) the flare and ferrule backing must be held in alignment with the fitting during tightening. I had to tighten the fittings tighter than I anticipated as SS isn’t soft like Nicop. So, it’s important to use anti gall/seize lubricant on the threads. All leaks were fixed by loosening and realigning the fitting.

Good luck-I’m enjoying your build updates

Thanks Budfive for your insight on working with stainless and your support. I have been following your build thread and appreciate the detail you are providing.

I did read that using a that a tubing cutter would not work so I am planning to use my Dremel with a cutoff disk. I was contemplating using a small tubing cutter to mark a score line so I know where to cut and to keep the cut straight. Any thoughts on this approach?

Best Regards, Andrew

[PMD24]

I'm no expert, but the flare looks great to me. What tool did you use? Bends are really nice work.

Pat

[AndrewIdaho]

I'm no expert, but the flare looks great to me. What tool did you use? Bends are really nice work.

Pat

Thanks for the review and confirmation that I am on the right track. I am using the Rigid 377 flaring tool.

Andrew

[BUDFIVE]

Thanks Budfive for your insight on working with stainless and your support. I have been following your build thread and appreciate the detail you are providing.

I did read that using a that a tubing cutter would not work so I am planning to use my Dremel with a cutoff disk. I was contemplating using a small tubing cutter to mark a score line so I know where to cut and to keep the cut straight. Any thoughts on this approach?

Best Regards, Andrew

On a 3/16” brake line it will be difficult to cut to a line around it. If you are careful, a cross cut should be pretty square. Perhaps drill a 3/16” hole perpendicular in a block of wood. Then after your cut, push the line just through the hole and you can file it square by filing against the wood. Then, chamfer and deburr.

I used one of these with a composite blade. The cut was more critical on the 3/8” fuel lines.213498

[AndrewIdaho]

On a 3/16” brake line it will be difficult to cut to a line around it. If you are careful, a cross cut should be pretty square. Perhaps drill a 3/16” hole perpendicular in a block of wood. Then after your cut, push the line just through the hole and you can file it square by filing against the wood. Then, chamfer and deburr.

I used one of these with a composite blade. The cut was more critical on the 3/8” fuel lines.213498

Budfive, thanks for the helpful suggestions. I may consider the HF cutoff tool as I am always looking for new tools.

Best Regards, Andrew

[Mike.Bray]

Thanks Budfive for your insight on working with stainless and your support. I have been following your build thread and appreciate the detail you are providing.

I did read that using a that a tubing cutter would not work so I am planning to use my Dremel with a cutoff disk. I was contemplating using a small tubing cutter to mark a score line so I know where to cut and to keep the cut straight. Any thoughts on this approach?

Best Regards, Andrew

Don't overthink it. I cut the -3 tubing with a Dremel cutoff wheel, then use my disc sander to square the cut up, and then deburr the OD & ID. I use a belt sander for the OD and a countersink for the ID.

For the fuel lines, since they are relatively low pressure I use these fittings and have never had a problem. https://www.holley.com/brands/earls/products/plumbing_an_fittings_and_hose/hardline/compression_adapters/

I find they are a lot faster and easier than messing with flaring -6 stainless tubing.

[AndrewIdaho]

May 12 update: Last week went a little slow while waiting for the Tilton MCs to arrive (they did on Thursday and Saturday). While waiting I did some fitting of the aluminum panels on the passenger side and modified the Summit Aluminum separators I bought (inexpensive but not designed to mount to a surface). Once the MC arrived, I got them installed and then took the stainless brake line that I had started, as described in my previous update, and finished the bends and flaring to complete the foot box rear brake line. Pictures with some comments below:

Summit Separators modified to use 10-32 screw to mount them to a panel or frame:
213696

Tilton MC and Rear Brake Line:
213697

Rear Brake Line Top View:
213698

Rear Brake Line Lower Side View:
213699


The question i have for the group: Am I going to regret how I routed the brake line as it will interfere with something else?

My lesson learned from this round is to check the orientation of the ferrule before flaring the line.

Comments and recommendations are welcome.

Thanks, Andrew

[Mike.Bray]

213697

213698



That line isn't resting on the steering shaft is it?

[AndrewIdaho]

That line isn't resting on the steering shaft is it?

No it is about 1" above. Thanks for checking. Andrew

[PMD24]

Nice clean work Andrew!

[AndrewIdaho]

Nice clean work Andrew!

Thanks Pat!

[AndrewIdaho]

It has been almost two weeks since I have posted but I have been making progress. This post covers the brake lines.

Both Foot Box lines are done in stainless.
214157

The front brake line from the foot box to the driver side brake is also done in stainless.
214158

The front brake line from DS to PS is in steel using a ~51" pre-cut line following Chad's advice. I struggle making nice looking bends or kinking the line so I opted to minimize the number of bends by using short precut lines.
214159

The rear brake line between DS and PS is in steel using a ~41" as well for the same reasoning as the front one.
214160 214161

The rear line from the footbox to the DS brake is still to be done as I discovered I am short one stainless sleeve and tube nut (or I misplaced them). I am going to see if the local speed shop carries any if not I will need to order on line.

Thanks for looking and comments welcome.

Best Regard, Andrew

[AndrewIdaho]

In addition to the brake lines mentioned in the prior post I also worked on trying to get the foot box completed by adding the fuse box and balance bar adjustment system.

For the fuse box, I decided to go with the FFR recommended location as I have a heater and defroster and I am not sure I could move the fuse box anywhere else with out discovering some interference at a later point in time. I mounted it using 10-32 button head screws and rivnuts so that it would be easier to remove and reinstall fuse box when it come time to install the windshield. I discovered that I did not like the flex in the unsupported corner so I added a 1/4-20 threaded rod, spacer and nuts to provide support. It will also double as the place where the fuse box ground wire will be grounded to the chassis:

214162

I am also installing a Wilwood balance bar adjuster knob. There is not a lot of room in the box for the adjuster cable so I acquired the Tilton right angle gear box to make routing feasible. I discovered the Wilwood cable and the Tilton gear box don't match. I could choose to grind down the cable or drill out the hole in the gear box. I decided to go with option 3 and have my friend who is a hobby machinist build me an adapter. With some tweaking to the adapter he built, I am pleased with the results.

Original Adapter - too long:
214163
214164
Adapter cut down to length:
214165
Adapter installed:
214166

Thanks for looking and let me know if you have any comments or questions.

Andrew

[AndrewIdaho]

It has been a slow two weeks on the build as we just had a few new windows and a door installed and it took a while to get the house ready for the work.

Over the last few weeks, I topped up the rear differential (thanks to all who responded to my friction modifier question).

I got the fuel tank components and fuel filter installed. The Holley pump went right in with out a need to trim the opening as I have heard need to be done with other in tank fuel pumps and the price was very competitive (though the flow rate is way more than needed). I checked that the fuel level sensor changed resistance as it moved (~18 ohms to 163 ohms).

214881 214882

I acquired AN-6 PTFE fuel lines and fittings from Hot Rod Fuel hose and have done an initial trial fit. There is one question I have that I will ask in a subsequent post.

214837 214838

Thanks for looking and let me know if you have questions or comments,

Best Regards, Andrew

[AndrewIdaho]

Hello All,

I have made progress in the last two weeks and had a slight set back.

Set back: Holley recalled my pressure regulator due to a manufacturing issue and I am awaiting a replacement so that I can then complete the fuel lines.

Progress:
1.) I was able to test out the Wilwood Electronic Emergency Brake System and it works well. It allowed me to lock down the IRS wheel bolts and the drive shaft adapter plate. The E-brake system has many, many feet of excess wire that will force me to disassemble the harness and trim the wire to a more reasonable length:
215464

2.) I was able to get the brake lines bled. The process with a pressure bleeder went smoothly other than I had an instance where I dropped the bleeder catch bottle- what a mess. The pedal seems nice and firm (comparable to my daily driver) and I was pleased that the stainless brake lines I bent and flared had no leaks.

3.) I was able to get tires for my wheels and get them mounted. I opted for the Michelin Pilot Sport AS4 tires as I found them on sale and seemed the best fit for my needs for cruising.

4.) I was able to get the Breeze fan shroud and hinge system mounted to the radiator and the resulting assembly mounted to the frame. I used the Breeze lower radiator mount bar clamped to the frame as a helping hand as I installed the bolts holding the hinge to the frame:
215465
I still have to set the angle of the radiator and install the lower radiator mount once the angle is established.

5.) Forte has completed my engine/transmission package and it is on a truck headed my way. I expect delivery next Wednesday. I preparation, I ended up purchasing a new 2 ton engine hoist from summit as it was on sale and cheaper than the one HF was offering at the time (including all HF discounts). I could not find a used one in my area for a reasonable price (they were either all beat up, stored outside or asking almost the cost of a new one).
215467

Finally, a side view of the result so far:
215468

Once the fuel lines are completed, it will be a roller 😊.

Thanks for looking and let me know if you have any questions or comments.

Best Regards, Andrew

[Nigel Allen]

Looking good!

Cheers,

Nige

[F500guy]

Neat trick on the adapter, just remember it turns both directions so make sure the cable side is secure to your adapter, blue lock tight or set screw.

[AndrewIdaho]

Neat trick on the adapter, just remember it turns both directions so make sure the cable side is secure to your adapter, blue lock tight or set screw.

Thanks - I agree that it needs to move both ways. I used red Loctite on the adapter. Hopefully it was not overkill....

Best Regards, Andrew

[cv2065]

Looking good! Might want to check your reservoir height. Looks to be above 3/4" tube and higher than in post #45? Can’t really tell in the pics. Did you swap the first two out for taller reservoirs?

[gbranham]

Looking great! That Wilwood electric park brake is a thing of beauty, isn't it? And yes, they supply you enough wire length to install it in an RV! :)

Don't fixate on your radiator angle too much; it simply needs to be at the appropriate angle to allow your small triangular side nose aluminum pieces to align their notches with the quickjack bolt holts in the front of the frame. Clamp those two pieces of aluminum to the 3/4" tube, aligned with the QJ mount point, and adjust the radiator accordingly. Could even be done after the body is on.

Greg

[AndrewIdaho]

Looking good! Might want to check your reservoir height. Looks to be above 3/4" tube and higher than in post #45? Can’t really tell in the pics. Did you swap the first two out for taller reservoirs?

Thanks Yes, they are high. I moved them up as I bled the brakes and had not gotten around to moving them back down to level with the frame. On my list to do today.

[AndrewIdaho]

Thanks Greg. I appreciate the insight and technique to adjust the angle. I was not planning on setting it until after the engine is installed as I plan to remove the radiator prior to installation.

Andrew

[gbranham]

Thanks Greg. I appreciate the insight and technique to adjust the angle. I was not planning on setting it until after the engine is installed as I plan to remove the radiator prior to installation.

Andrew

Yep, good idea...that's exactly what I did.

215487

[AndrewIdaho]

Hello All,

The shipper arrived yesterday with my 302SBF from Mike Forte. When the driver came to the door he asked that I come look at the crate before unloading it. When I saw the crate, my heart sank. The front side cardboard was coated in oil. I had the driver remove the oil soaked cardboard and inspected the contents. I found the engine in the front corner tilting to the side. The bag that contained the oil had been crushed. There was major structural damage to the crate. From my perspective, it appears that the crate was dropped on it's front side somewhere in the shipment process. As a consequence, I refused the shipment. Some pictures follow:

215842 215843

I contacted Mike and sent him these pictures (along with a few more). In my discussions with him this morning, he is working with the shipper to get the engine returned as soon as possible so he can assess the damage and see what he needs to do. I appreciate that he jumped right on this and he has been great to work with.

I was planning to get the engine/drivetrain installed and wiring done prior to working on the cabin sheet metal so I had lots of room to work. I am going to rethink that plan and see how much I can progress I can make while I await a replacement engine.

I fear that my goal of first start by early fall will not be met. I am a little bummed.

I am going to step away from the build for the holiday weekend and start fresh after that. Have a great 4th.

Thanks, Andrew

[JayOH]

That truly sucks, but at least you can be sure that it will get rectified and soon enough you will be back making progress. Hang in there.

[TrackDay17]

Bummer about your engine Andrew, Forte seems like a really good guy, I'm sure between him and the shipper they'll make it right.
Hopefully the damage is superficial and can be fixed easily.

[gbranham]

Sorry to hear about your setback. Fortunately, you have plenty of other things to do on the car while you wait.

Greg

[F500guy]

Real bummer, I know engine delivery is right up there with the kit delivery, and to have to send it back...:(

[JMD]

Oh man, that sucks. Getting the engine is one of the high points of the build, so I'm sorry you're having to send it back. Forte is very good about making things right...it just might take a little while.

Those kinds of letdowns are a big part of the build process and I've learned not to let them get me down too much. It sucks in the moment, but 3-6 months from now it will probably be in a good place. These things just take time. If you can walk away from it and not let it ruin your holiday, that's a win. And like I said, it will be where you want it to be one day. Just not today. You got this.

[danmas]

Ugh. I am deeply sympathetic

[gbranham]

Oh man, that sucks. Getting the engine is one of the high points of the build, so I'm sorry you're having to send it back. Forte is very good about making things right...it just might take a little while.

Those kinds of letdowns are a big part of the build process and I've learned not to let them get me down too much. It sucks in the moment, but 3-6 months from now it will probably be in a good place. These things just take time. If you can walk away from it and not let it ruin your holiday, that's a win. And like I said, it will be where you want it to be one day. Just not today. You got this.

That's exactly right, John. Well said.

[GoDadGo]

Sorry!

[John4337]

Thats a gut punch for sure, but having dealt with Mike, I'm confident he will make it right. To steal a line from Jimmy Buffett "Breathe in, breathe out, move on." Keep us updated.

[OB6]

I know the feeling. The excitement of engine delivery day gets squashed. Same thing happened to my LS3, but as mentioned above, there are lots of things to do in the meantime. It still doesn't relieve the sting.

[AndrewIdaho]

Hello All,

My thanks to all who responded with the support and encouragement, I greatly appreciate it. After going through the 5 steps of grieving and having an enjoyable 4th of July weekend, I started back at it this week. I am first concentrating on getting the wiring run including the additional wiring for the additional features I am adding (ProFlow4 EFI, Electronic Parking Brake, Electronic turn signaling, Stereo with Amp, Heated Seats, Higher Power Fuel Pump and additional lighting in cubby and trunk). To that end, I have come to the conclusion that the added equipment will require additional fuses and relays as I am not sure that the RF fuse system and the ignition switch will have sufficient current capability. I addressed some of this earlier in the thread with the power system design and have decided due to lack of space behind the dash, most of the fusing and relays will be in the trunk mounted to the Breeze cubby wall. I have also concluded that I will need a little fusing and relays added behind the dash to facilitate the control of the rear electronics to ensure I do not load the RF fuse or Ignition switch too heavily. This maybe over engineering the system, but I would hate to discover I overloaded something further in to the build and have to tear into it after the fact to fix things.

I have updated my power system diagram to reflect my latest thinking:
216109

I have created a diagram for the rear and additional front relay fusing systems:
216110

As always, comments and suggestions welcome.

Thanks, Andrew

[JMD]

I’m glad you enjoyed your 4th and didn’t let this ruin your holiday.

I did something similar and ran a 10 ga power wire from the battery to a fuse block mounted behind the breeze cubby divider. I didn’t diagram it out like you did, but gave myself 8 fused terminals to tap into for future use. So far I’m only using one for a 12v outlet and another for a usb power source mounted in the cubby, but in case I do decide to install a stereo or something else it will be ready. Giving yourself that flexibility is always a good idea. Carry on!

[AndrewIdaho]

Hello All,

I am continuing to make progress after my setback.

Forte received my engine and his team has gone through it. The distributor and the front accessories had some damage but the oil pan, valve covers and block looked good. They are in the process of rebuilding it and I asked them to dyno it again to give me some peace of mind.

Since the last update, I have built the rear fuse/relay panel that I documented in my prior post:
216601

I have mocked up it's position as well as the Electronic Parking Brake Controller on the Breeze Cubby wall:
216602

I have concluded that I am going to need to brace the wall to keep the weight of the fuse panel from causing unnecessary flex to the wall especially after I cut U-holes in the wall to allow the trunk gas springs to mount. I plan to use 1" x 1/8" aluminum angle for the bracing to the 3/4" rail give adequate rigidity (not as shown in the picture):
216603

Comments and questions welcome.

Best Regards, Andrew

[JMD]

Sounds like a good plan to me! Nice work. That's more involved than I wanted to get with my build, but kudos for the effort!

[Sarcasticshrub]

That fuse/relay panel is sharp! Should do the trick.

Have you put thought into reaching it after the body is on for future maintenance?

Great work overall!

[AndrewIdaho]

That fuse/relay panel is sharp! Should do the trick.

Have you put thought into reaching it after the body is on for future maintenance?

Great work overall!

Sarcasticshrub, thanks and great question. The panel is held on with 10-32 screws into rivnuts in the z-brackets. The z-brackets are riveted into the back of the breeze cubby divider. All the wires are removable via the terminal blocks. So my expectation (hope) is that, should I need to do maintenance on the panel, I should be able to go in through the trunk, remove the screws and remove the panel. I have already tested the relays and fuses with my DMM and bench power supply as a standalone sub-assembly.

Thanks, Andrew

[AndrewIdaho]

Hello All,

It has been a busy several weeks. I was able to finish the changes I needed to make to the breeze cubby including cutouts for the trunk gas struts and fabricating the additional support bracket alluded to in my last post.

217422

Forte's team was able to turn around the repairs to my dropped engine and I received it just over a week a ago. It took several days to get it uncrated and the crate material disposed of. The process allowed me to use my engine hoist and I was pleased how it worked. A few items were missing and Forte was able to quickly turn those around. I had thought that ProFlo 4 EFI came with a tablet but I was mistaken. I discovered that the Amazon Fire tablet supports the Edelbrock app and I was able to get a refurbed one for less than $50 (my cell phone is too small for me to effectively use it). I also received my headers from GASN (Silver Ceramic Coated) and did a trial fit.

217423 217424

After going through the uncrating process, I was reticent to move the engine around just using the lift as the engine tended to swing. Consequently, I built a dolly using a spare 4x4 and casters that I had as well as some of the crate material. This allows me to push the engine around as I need to work on it and not have it swinging on the lift. It also allowed me to move the engine to a new home and give my wife back her preferred bay in the garage to use.
217425

Thanks for looking and let me know if you have questions or comments.

Andrew

[JMD]

I'm glad to hear you've got the engine back! Hopefully the incident was a blessing in disguise as perhaps it got some special attention the second time around.

I like the support brace for the cubby wall. I can't think of why it would be necessary (maybe you're attaching something heavy to the wall down the road), but either way it can't hurt to have.

Do you have some sort of valve that goes from a valve breather to the intake? I've heard it's important to have that negative pressure ventilation. I just ask because your valve breather is on the passenger side and usually that's where builders connect the pcv to the intake. Maybe yours is on the other side? Just curious.

That's one nice looking engine! For long term storage you definitely want the engine sitting and supported, not hanging from bolts. It's fine for moving them around, but you don't want that tension exerted long term.

Great progress, keep it up!

[AndrewIdaho]

I'm glad to hear you've got the engine back! Hopefully the incident was a blessing in disguise as perhaps it got some special attention the second time around.

I like the support brace for the cubby wall. I can't think of why it would be necessary (maybe you're attaching something heavy to the wall down the road), but either way it can't hurt to have.

Do you have some sort of valve that goes from a valve breather to the intake? I've heard it's important to have that negative pressure ventilation. I just ask because your valve breather is on the passenger side and usually that's where builders connect the pcv to the intake. Maybe yours is on the other side? Just curious.

That's one nice looking engine! For long term storage you definitely want the engine sitting and supported, not hanging from bolts. It's fine for moving them around, but you don't want that tension exerted long term.

Great progress, keep it up!

Thanks for the review and support John.

Yes the breeze cubby wall will have the trunk relays and fuse box mounted to it which does have noticeable mass to it (see a mock up picture earlier in the thread #90 (https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?49519-Andrew-s-MK4-Roadster-Build-Thread-Aug-9-Update&p=586489&viewfull=1#post586489))

Thanks for the breather/PCV valve question. I thought something did not look right but I could not place my finger on what it was (my newbieness showing through). Below is a front view of the engine showing breather filters in both covers (as circled) instead of a PCV valve in the passenger side cover.

217447

When the engine was dropped the passenger valve cover was damaged and so it was replaced. I would guess that who ever replaced it put on a driver side cover/breather.
I have sent an email to Forte to get clarification and to have them send a PCV valve and hose that will then plug into the PCV vacuum port on the proflo 4

Best Regards, Andrew

[gbranham]

For my ProFlo4, I have a breather on the driver's side valve cover, and a PCV valve in the passenger side valve cover, plumbed to a ProFlo4 throttle body vacuum port.

217474

[gbranham]

Also, you don't need a tablet for ProFlo4. Just enable Bluetooth on your phone, and download the app to your phone.

[AndrewIdaho]

Also, you don't need a tablet for ProFlo4. Just enable Bluetooth on your phone, and download the app to your phone.

Hi Greg, Thanks for this comment. I have an iPhone 12 mini and when I installed the app and ran it in demo mode I found that the screen and icons were just too small to be used comfortably so I opted for a cheap tablet with a larger screen. My old eyes and fat fingers appreciated the change :) .

Thanks, Andrew

[AndrewIdaho]

For my ProFlo4, I have a breather on the driver's side valve cover, and a PCV valve in the passenger side valve cover, plumbed to a ProFlo4 throttle body vacuum port.

217474

Greg thanks for the confirmation on the PCV valve to ProFlo4 connection. I have a related question: The Proflo4 documentation does not clearly show the Fuel Pressure Regulator Vacuum Reference Port for the 4150 Style Manifold (but does for the XT Manifold). There is one port that is not referenced in the manual that I assume is the Fuel Pressure Regulator Vacuum Reference port as highlighted in by the orange line in the attached picture. Is this the correct assumption?

217479

Thanks, Andrew

[gbranham]

For my FPR, I used the small vacuum port on the back ofnthe throttle body. It points directly at the firewall.

[AndrewIdaho]

For my FPR, I used the small vacuum port on the back of the throttle body. It points directly at the firewall.

Thanks Greg! This is very helpful and saved me from making a mistake. For those reading, attached is a picture of the back of my throttle body showing the smaller port Greg references (on the right) that is not visible nor referenced in the documentation.

217494


Best Regards Andrew

[gbranham]

Glad that helped!

[AndrewIdaho]

I have made good progress over the last three weeks.

Engine Prepped for Install: Alternator wire built and installed; Hydraulic Clutch Slave Cylinder Correctly Adjusted (my thanks to those who responded to my questions on a separate thread); oil pressure and temp sensor for gauges installed (in pro flow manifold following other posts). Sorry no pictures.

Initial Dash Fitment: Trial fitted dash and dash support bracket and did a first pass of switch placement (subject to change as I let my brain dwell on it).
218250

218251
Key: 1 horn, 2 Key Ign Sw, 3 High/Low Beam, 4 Head Light, 5 Hazard, 6 Wipers, 7 Heater Fan, 8 Heater Temp, 9 Parking Brake Switch

Engine Install: My friend came over this last Thursday and we were able to get the engine installed. I allocated a couple of hours and we got it done in about an hour and 1/2. Not bad for two old men who had not done this before. I am glad we had the engine leveler or it could have been a big challenge. The car was supported with wheel dollies that allowed us to fine tune its position right to left as this was easier than moving the engine lift side to side.
218252

218253

The one issue I have is that the oil drain plug sits below the frame tubes by 1/2". I could raise the engine with washers (my guess that 6 on each bolt would be required) but this seems excessive. Comments or suggestions to correct the issue would be appreciated. I will need to talk with Forte on Tuesday as I requested an oil pan that had clearance.

Transmission and Drive Shaft: As part of the engine install, we installed the drive shaft at the same time as this seemed easier than doing it later. Yesterday I added transmission A frame and support bracket, and roughly set transmission height with a couple of Forte Spacers. Based on where the shifter sits it looks like I can rotate its position so I will plan to experiment with this some time in the future to see what is more comfortable.
218254

Lastly, I am glad I did not follow the manual to the letter and install the cockpit floors/sides first as this would have made installing and adjusting the transmission and drive shaft very difficult.

Comments and questions are welcome.

Have a great Labor Day weekend.

Andrew

[gbranham]

Looking good. Personally, I wouldn't sweat the 1/2" on the drain plug.

Greg

[edwardb]

The one issue I have is that the oil drain plug sits below the frame tubes by 1/2". I could raise the engine with washers (my guess that 6 on each bolt would be required) but this seems excessive. Comments or suggestions to correct the issue would be appreciated. I will need to talk with Forte on Tuesday as I requested an oil pan that had clearance.

Highly recommend to not mess with washers or whatever on the engine mount. That could easily have unintended consequences like messing with your header/side pipe alignment and others. Plus you want the engine mounts to set flush on the frame mounts. Do whatever is necessary to correct the problem the right way. Ideally, the pan should not extend below the frame rails.

[Nigel Allen]

Low profile or flush mount drain plug?

[JMD]

Good work! That's a big milestone for sure. Installing the driveshaft at that time was the right move. I had bolted the transmission in before installing the driveshaft and had to unbolt it, loosen motor mounts, move it all over to one side enough to fit in the slip yolk...I wish I had done it all at once, but you don't know what you don't know! Glad you got it figured out.

I would definitely get a different oil pan installed. I also specifically asked Forte for a higher clearance pan and he put on a Champion pan, pickup and dipstick for me that work great. (If you change pan, will probably need to change pickup and dipstick too, but it's pretty simple.) At about 500 miles of driving I was going down a country road that had one spot the middle was humped up and I didn't see it soon enough to avoid it. Not enough to bother a regular car, but enough to scrape the tar out of my front frame 4" crossmember. (I even have my car riding about 1/2" higher than many others.) That could have ruined my day and put my car out of commission for a while if my oil pan was lower than the frame rail by any amount. Fortunately no big deal other than I need to touch up the paint on my frame. I would encourage you to do it voluntarily now rather than involuntarily later.

Putting 3/4" of spacers under the transmission works well for most applications. Happy building!

[JMD]

Oh, and don't space your engine to mount higher than it already is. It can create problems with the driveline angle, air filter height, header & sidepipe mounting position and other things. If anything the engine benefits from being slightly lower than what we get with the FFR poly mounts, but they're fine if you space the transmission up about 3/4".

[AndrewIdaho]

Low profile or flush mount drain plug?

I am not sure, it certainly does not seem flush. The following is a picture of the pan. If I hold a straight edge across the frame, it just kisses the pan but the plug protrudes below.

218259

[AndrewIdaho]

Good work! That's a big milestone for sure. Installing the driveshaft at that time was the right move. I had bolted the transmission in before installing the driveshaft and had to unbolt it, loosen motor mounts, move it all over to one side enough to fit in the slip yolk...I wish I had done it all at once, but you don't know what you don't know! Glad you got it figured out.

I would definitely get a different oil pan installed. I also specifically asked Forte for a higher clearance pan and he put on a Champion pan, pickup and dipstick for me that work great. (If you change pan, will probably need to change pickup and dipstick too, but it's pretty simple.) At about 500 miles of driving I was going down a country road that had one spot the middle was humped up and I didn't see it soon enough to avoid it. Not enough to bother a regular car, but enough to scrape the tar out of my front frame 4" crossmember. (I even have my car riding about 1/2" higher than many others.) That could have ruined my day and put my car out of commission for a while if my oil pan was lower than the frame rail by any amount. Fortunately no big deal other than I need to touch up the paint on my frame. I would encourage you to do it voluntarily now rather than involuntarily later.

Putting 3/4" of spacers under the transmission works well for most applications. Happy building!

Thanks for the insight. I specifically asked Forte for a pan that would clear. I wonder if when my engine was dropped the pan was replaced but not with the original. I will discuss this with him on Tuesday.

I have 1/2" of spacers currently installed under the transmission and another 1/4" in reserve. I would like to see where the angles sit with just two and add the third if necessary.

[Mike.Bray]

Looking good. Personally, I wouldn't sweat the 1/2" on the drain plug.

Greg

I'll respectfully disagree on this one, that's the one thing you never want to catch on something. My first street rod was a T bucket roadster with a SBC that had the drain plug hanging down like that. Hit it one day and knocked it right off. Was lucky to feel it and saw the oil pressure drop.

Look at the Aviaid original Daytona coupe style pans. Very nice and 6 1/2" tall. https://aviaid.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/ws_oilpns_sbf-ss2.html

[gbranham]

I'll respectfully disagree on this one, that's the one thing you never want to catch on something. My first street rod was a T bucket roadster with a SBC that had the drain plug hanging down like that. Hit it one day and knocked it right off. Was lucky to feel it and saw the oil pressure drop.

Look at the Aviaid original Daytona coupe style pans. Very nice and 6 1/2" tall. https://aviaid.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/ws_oilpns_sbf-ss2.html

I hear ya, Mike. While a "higher" drain plug may be intuitively safer, I suspect that many drain plug strikes that have happened would've happened even if they were slightly higher. I think there's a false sense of security that "if" a drain plug and pan are above the frame, they are protected. Only true if you only ever run over things that are large enough to be fully deflected by the frame. That said, I'm kind of a risk taker, and wouldn't replace my pan on a brand new build for a half inch. Call me crazy.

[cv2065]

I’d install a skid plate with spacers before I changed out the pan.

https://www.roadstertowbar.com/products/factory-five-skid-plate

[AndrewIdaho]

My thanks to all of the insight and suggestions. I was able to converse with Forte yesterday to understand why I have this situation. The following is the current understanding of my situation and the options I see (with some questions). Your comments and critiques are most welcome as I work through to a decision.

Observations of my current situation:

Measured distance of engine block to bottom of rails is 7.5”. A closer measurement of the pan revels that a small section of the pan around the plug is below the rails (<1/8”).
The engine mounts are as high as they can go as constrained by the alignment pins on the mounts.
Per Forte, the pan he used was a Blueprint pan as specified by FFR. It is not clear to me if something has changed over time to result in my situation.
Idaho roads outside of major towns and cities are not necessarily very smooth with frost heaves, dips and bumps. The most exhilarating drives around me are in the mountains on two lane roads that are prone to have rockslides.
Due to engine being dropped, it has a brand-new pan on it that has never been filled with oil so changing pan now as opposed to later will be less messy and presumed to be easier.


Options in order of increasing cost:

1. Do nothing and live with drain plug below rails: Though the lowest cost option, this would severely restrict where I could drive or run a higher risk of pan damage in the middle of nowhere than I am comfortable with.

2. Add a skid plate (+$175) with ½+” spacers: Will reduce ride height by ¾” and not clear how structurally sound lowered plate will be if hit by the road or a rock. Thoughts on this are welcome.

3. Forte suggest as an option to add 1/8” to 1/4” of washers/spacer between engine block and engine mount and use Allen head screw/bolt as oil drain plug. (Guess $40 in parts): Pan will still hang a little below rails so skid plate will be needed with spacers though closer to rails than option 2 above. This option could have unintended side effects and is not clear it is any better than option 2.

4. Go with replacement 7.5” Depth Pan and Skid Plate (+$175 + Pan cost)
a. Kevko F901 Cobra Kit Car Pan - $450 (inlc pickup, Dipstick, Support Stud)
b. Mildon 31600 Pan -$600 (Quote from Mike) (no dip stick +$50)
c. Many other choices in this pan depth.
With skid plate will this pan be damaged as the engine flexes on motor mounts as there appears to be little to no clearance? Thoughts welcome on this question.

5. Go with 7” or 6.5” Pan:
a. Champ 7”: CP302LT-RR 7” Depth - $490 (inlc pickup and dip stick)
b. Champ 6.5”: CP303LT ($490) or CP306LT($510) (inlc pickup and dip stick)
c. AVIAD 155-55362 Original Daytona Coupe Pan for 302 ($650) inlc pickup and dip stick)
Would skid plate be needed given ½” to 1” clearance above rails? Thoughts welcome on this question.


Again thanks for the help.
Andrew

[gbranham]

I know I said I wouldn't sweat a half inch, and I still believe that, at least for my neck of the woods (nice flat roads). Based on your description of your roads, I think your best bet is a shallower pan and other accompanying changes. It's the right way to do it, given your circumstance, and it's what I'd do in your shoes, regardless of cost. That said, Option 5 gets my vote, whatever that's worth. :)

[JMD]

I would also go for some version of Option 5. The other options aren't the most effective solutions, you may still have an issue or cause other issues with them you wish you hadn't. I've tried a lot of things to get by with less than optimal solutions (in my life, not in my build) and almost always end up regretting it. I don't like going with the most expensive option first, but in this case I think it's the best choice. Buy once, cry once...then enjoy the car with that worry in the back of your mind replaced with the satisfaction of knowing it's done right.

I believe I have the Champ CP302LT-RR or equivalent. Works great. You can always add a skid plate later if you want, but the way it sits with that pan I really don't think it's necessary.

[AndrewIdaho]

Hello All,

Yesterday I was able to get the new oil pan installed. I had to move the bell housing back about 3/8" and with that, the install, though time consuming (5 hours of work), went smoothly and as expected based on all the helpful feedback from the forum members.

Old oil pan: Drain Plug hung below the rails
219639

New oil pan: About 1/2" clearance above the rails.
219638

Today, I was able to secure the engine bolts and using three 1/4" spacers to raise the transmission I got the following pinion angle measurements:

Transmission points down to the rear by 1.2 degrees
IRS Pinion points down to the front by 0.6 degrees
Note the frame points down back to front by 0.8 degrees (garage floor is graded to let water run to the garage doors).

I think this results in a 1.8 degree angle which I believe from my reading is acceptable. Let this newbie know if I have got this wrong and need to fix something.

Thanks for looking.
Best Regards, Andrew

[AndrewIdaho]

My apologies for the lack of posting in the last month. After replacing the oil pan, I have been busy completing the remainder of the engine bay in hopes of getting to first start before winter sets in.

First off I connected the hoses between the PS rack and pump. After assessing the FFR provided hoses (very long) and what I would need to do to make it work give the pump had a barbed return fitting, I concluded that using the Breeze kit would make for an easier and cleaner install. I was very happy with the results:

220858 220859

Next I installed the radiator. I have used the Breeze upper and lower radiator mounts. It made if very easy to adjust and set the angle using the aluminum parts provide by FFR has others have suggested:
220860

I then installed the lower radiator hose (again using Breeze parts as I did not like the looks of the corrugated hose) which made the process easy and seems very robust:
220861

Similarly, I installed the upper radiator filler (I went with a 16 psi metal fill cap , as I was not sure how robust the plastic cap provide by FFR was going to be) and used the gates hose as suggested by others on the forum:
220862

Next I installed the coolant over flow tank provide by FFR (my reading in the forum indicates this tank should be ok for my 302) and I like that its look matches the brake/clutch reservoirs:
220863

I connected up all the Proflo 4 EFI cables (not dressed yet) and connected up the Forte mechanical throttle linkage. The linkage proved to be a challenge and even after measuring multiple times I cut one of the rods too short :o. I got a replacement rod from McMaster-Carr (hex as opposed to round to ease adjustment) and got the rod cut to the needed length, tapped and installed. I believe I have it set pretty close and have enough adjustment range to tweak if needed:
220865

I connected the heater hoses. I have chosen to go with a electronically controlled servo controlled heater bypass valve. Any suggestions on what to use to clean the label off the EPDM hose would be welcome.:
220867

Lastly I mounted the air filter to check for clearance of the linkage and wiring and found no interference issues (so far).
I am happy with how the engine install has gone and I think it is ready for first start once I get the EFI and fuel pump wiring done and fluids installed:
220866

Thanks for looking and let me know if there are questions or comments.

Best Regards, Andrew

[gbranham]

You're gonna love that ProFlo4. I love mine! Holler if you have any questions before first start. You will need the serial number of your ProFlo4 ECU when you fire up the app on your phone. The serial number is on a sticker on the ECU.

Greg

[AndrewIdaho]

You're gonna love that ProFlo4. I love mine! Holler if you have any questions before first start. You will need the serial number of your ProFlo4 ECU when you fire up the app on your phone. The serial number is on a sticker on the ECU.

Greg

Thanks for the heads up on the serial number!

[gbranham]

Thanks for the heads up on the serial number!

You bet. I installed my ECU on the inside of the firewall, passenger side, and had to unbolt it from the firewall to get the serial number off of the bottom of it. Not a big deal, but I wish I would've known I needed that serial number before I bolted it up.

[JMD]

Good to see the progress! I hated the supplied power steering hoses so made my own from leftover PTFE stainless hose I used for the fuel lines. I love a simple and clean engine bay.

That mechanical linkage sure is a project unto itself, isn't it? I think it took me 2 (short) days to get mine finished, but it's really great to operate. I think you'll enjoy it.

[AndrewIdaho]

Since my last post, I was able to get the Proflow4, Fuel Pump and Fan wired up and operating with only minor issues. The PF4 was missing a cap on DS Fuel Rail that caused the PF4 ECU to shutdown the fuel pump as it could not see any pressure. After cleaning up the mess, I capped the end with an AN-6 cap and the pressure came right up. I filled the engine with fluids and today was able to get the engine to start on first turn of the ignition. I inspected for leaks and none were obvious.

Video of the first start posted on you tube: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/Xygo7RXb4jg

I used distilled water in the cooling system in case there was a catastrophic leak (thankfully there was none). Tomorrows project is to drain the water and replace it with a 50-50 mix of Dexcool/Distilled Water.

I am very happy with my progress. With winter approaching and an unheated garage, I suspect my progress will begin to slow.

Thanks for looking and comments and questions are welcome.

Last but most importantly, my thanks to the veterans among us for their service.

Best Regards, Andrew

[cc2Arider]

Wowsers! That's great progress on your build Andrew :)

I also hope to get a 1st start before 2025 is over...

Craig C

[AndrewIdaho]

Wowsers! That's great progress on your build Andrew :)

I also hope to get a 1st start before 2025 is over...

Craig C

Thanks Craig.
I appreciate the support. I have been following your build thread regularly and the modifications you are adding and your skills to bring them to reality is something I can only aspire to. Keep up the great work.
Best Regards, Andrew

[Mike.Bray]

What a greet sound, nothing like the rumble of a pushrod V8 in a Cobra.

Before you do too much get your timing light and set the timing. It sounds a tad retarded.

[AndrewIdaho]

What a greet sound, nothing like the rumble of a pushrod V8 in a Cobra.

Before you do too much get your timing light and set the timing. It sounds a tad retarded.

Thanks Mike,

In discussion with Aaron at Forte's, he indicated that when running low fuel pressure (43 psi) this has caused unstable idle on Ford SBF with the PF4 and suggested 58 psi. I will bump that up first and then check the timing (after acquiring a timing light - looking at Innova 5568 off of amazon; other recommendations welcome).

Best Regards, Andrew

[Mike.Bray]

Thanks Mike,

In discussion with Aaron at Forte's, he indicated that when running low fuel pressure (43 psi) this has caused unstable idle on Ford SBF with the PF4 and suggested 58 psi. I will bump that up first and then check the timing (after acquiring a timing light - looking at Innova 5568 off of amazon; other recommendations welcome).

Best Regards, Andrew

ProFlo4 should be set to 58 PSI fuel pressure. Make sure that's set in the ECU also.

[TrackDay17]

Sounds great Andrew ! Must be especially rewarding after your shipping problems.

[JMD]

Sounds good...congratulations! If your 302 is like mine it will idle low and slow at 10 degrees advance at idle (which sounds amazing and is where mine was set when I got it from Forte), but I've found my engine pulls better through the rev range if it starts at 14 degrees initial timing. If it's a Blueprint engine make sure the vacuum advance is disconnected and your max advance is around 34 degrees and you should be good to go!

[AndrewIdaho]

Sounds good...congratulations! If your 302 is like mine it will idle low and slow at 10 degrees advance at idle (which sounds amazing and is where mine was set when I got it from Forte), but I've found my engine pulls better through the rev range if it starts at 14 degrees initial timing. If it's a Blueprint engine make sure the vacuum advance is disconnected and your max advance is around 34 degrees and you should be good to go!

Hi John,

Thanks for the review and the input. My engine is a Ford Performance Boss 302 that Forte built for me that included an Edelbrock ProFlo4 EFI so I am not sure if the the tuning recommendation you are providing is applicable or not. Once I got the fuel pressure set correctly at 58 psi, I then used the Edelbrock app to make sure everything was configured properly. At first I could not get the engine timing adjusted (could not see the mark) to the set up app's requirement of 16 degrees and the engine idled terribly (worse than before and would some times die). Being a newbie, I stopped and shut everything down so I could research what I was seeing as I figured I was doing something wrong. After searching the web, I discovered that the Boss 302 (also called 302HO) has the same firing order as the 351 and not the stock 302. I reran the configuration utility setting the correct firing order (351) and was able to easily set the timing as directed (12 degrees advance). I set the idle target to 700 rpm (some what arbitrary choice as I have no experience to set it any differently) and after finishing the setup, the engine idles very nicely (better than the first start idle) and starts right up on the first crank. Let me know if my idle target is too high or low or if you see something I have missed.

Best Regards, Andrew

[JMD]

It very well may be different with it being a Boss 302, but probably not much. I’m not sure how the ProFlo handles timing but it sounds like you’ve got it dialed in pretty well. There really is no set place where idle is supposed to be. Engines vary widely based on cam profile, heads, etc. Wherever it seems happy. Just don’t let it idle so slowly that your oil pressure drops too low. I like mine around 800, but whatever floats your boat. A slow idle can sound pretty sick. I would also double check your AFR settings to make sure it’s targeting a safe value on heavy acceleration and WOT. The Snipers come with a wizard tune that is ok, but there’s a lot to be gained from tweaking it. I’m not sure how it works for the ProFlo.

[gbranham]

FWIW, I have the idle on my mild-cammed 427 with ProFlo4 set to 825rpm. Ive fiddled with the idle anywhere from 750 to 900, and I like the idle at 825 best. It idles easily down to 750, and even as low as 725, but 825 works well and keep oil pressure happy.

[AndrewIdaho]

FWIW, I have the idle on my mild-cammed 427 with ProFlo4 set to 825rpm. Ive fiddled with the idle anywhere from 750 to 900, and I like the idle at 825 best. It idles easily down to 750, and even as low as 725, but 825 works well and keep oil pressure happy.


It very well may be different with it being a Boss 302, but probably not much. I’m not sure how the ProFlo handles timing but it sounds like you’ve got it dialed in pretty well. There really is no set place where idle is supposed to be. Engines vary widely based on cam profile, heads, etc. Wherever it seems happy. Just don’t let it idle so slowly that your oil pressure drops too low. I like mine around 800, but whatever floats your boat. A slow idle can sound pretty sick. I would also double check your AFR settings to make sure it’s targeting a safe value on heavy acceleration and WOT. The Snipers come with a wizard tune that is ok, but there’s a lot to be gained from tweaking it. I’m not sure how it works for the ProFlo.

John and Greg,

Thanks for the great feedback. I am working on getting the oil pressure gauge wired in temporarily so I can check the oil pressure. In my reading, there are warnings that some electrical gauges are not very reliable. Is there a recommended reliable gauge to use? From my reading, it looks like I should target the oil pressure at idle for 20-25psi so that is where I will start pending feedback. Once I get the idle oil pressure set and verified, I will look at the AFR as I am not inclined to run the engine at WOT until I know the oil pressure looks acceptable.

Best Regards, Andrew

[cc2Arider]

Hi Andrew,

Just a thought: I wondered about the "calibration" for the Speed Hut gauges and sending units, and I was planning to prime my oiling system since my engine has been in my possession but not run for 2 years now...

So, I simply got a barb fitting and adapted it to the oil pressure sending unit and pumped up my "Garden sprayer oil-priming" setup with the gauge hooked up and powered by a temporary 12v source. This confirmed that the oil pressure gauge and sending unit pressure values were reasonable (as compared to a simple mechanical pressure gauge). This might not be convenient for you since you already tightened down your sending unit to your engine, but you could put this in your "back pocket" for later :)

Craig C

[AndrewIdaho]

Thanks for that insight Craig. You are correct that I have the sending unit tightened down but I will keep your technique in mind should the oil pressure not look right and I need to trace down why.

Best Regards, Andrew

[AndrewIdaho]

Today, I was able to hook up the oil pressure, water temperature and voltage gauges using the packaging as a temporary support:

222070

I fired up the engine, all gauges responded as expected, I set the idle RPM target in the ECU to 750 and recorded the following:

RPM, Oil Pressure
750 RPM, 40 psi
1400 RPM, 50 psi
4000 RPM, 60 psi
5000 RPM, 63 psi

The pressure at idle (750) was a higher than I anticipated but I recollect that when Forte's team talked to me about the dyno results, he mentioned that Ford had improved the oil pump and that resulted in a little added horsepower. I wonder if it also boosted the pressure at idle.

I also noted the AFR as reported by the ECU at 13.4 which I believe is acceptable.

If you see anything of concern, let me know.

Best Regards, Andrew

[JMD]

Oil pressure looks good. I would set the AFR at WOT or low manifold kpa closer to 12.5:1. Just for safety. Mine was around 13:1 from Forte, but I think going a bit richer gives you more margin for real world variables and won't have a noticeable effect on power. Better rich than lean.

[gbranham]

In my reading, there are warnings that some electrical gauges are not very reliable. Is there a recommended reliable gauge to use?

I just rely on my Speedhut oil pressure gauge on my dash. I have no reason to believe it's not accurate.

Greg

[AndrewIdaho]

Hello All,

As predicted, my build progress has been slowed by the colder weather. That said, I got lucky and we had a couple of weeks where there were a few days in the mid 50's (as opposed to the low 30's) and I was able to get the cockpit floors installed and the remainder of the aluminum fitted, drilled and mounted with clecos.

222695 222696

I was also able to get the bezel for the seat heater switches and USB charge port positioned so that I can prepare to drill out the aluminum to allow the switches and USB port to fit.
222697

Weather is forecast to be warmer for the next few days so I should be able to make some more progress.

Thanks for looking.

Andrew

[PMD24]

Great progress Andrew. I just looked back through your posts to see if you had provided any details on that black bezel for the seat heater switches but couldn't locate anything. I have to admit that I did get sidetracked. Had to watch the start video again, and study your awesome electrical schematics, and then read the comments again on engine tuning, and, and, ... Anyway, did you make the bezel?

Thanks,

Pat

[AndrewIdaho]

Great progress Andrew. I just looked back through your posts to see if you had provided any details on that black bezel for the seat heater switches but couldn't locate anything. I have to admit that I did get sidetracked. Had to watch the start video again, and study your awesome electrical schematics, and then read the comments again on engine tuning, and, and, ... Anyway, did you make the bezel?

Thanks,

Pat

Hi Pat,

Thanks for the support and sorry I did not describe the panel fabrication earlier. I did not fabricate the panel. I found that NewWireMarine does custom dash panels and have an online design tool for simple panels ( https://newwiremarine.com/product/e-panel-builder/). I played with the tool a little bit to get the size of holes I needed in the smallest panel I could specify. It took me a few iterations one evening and I was able to get it dialed in. The panel is some form of plastic composite and I was pleased the way it turned out. The one downside is that it was expensive (especially shipping) but it gave me a very nice looking panel that I could not have fabricated with my rudimentary skills or with out having to buy a 3d printer. If I had a 3d printer and the skills to use it, I probably would have taken that route.

I hope that helps.

Best Regards, Andrew

[Nigel Allen]

Hi Pat,

Thanks for the support and sorry I did not describe the panel fabrication earlier. I did not fabricate the panel. I found that NewWireMarine does custom dash panels and have an online design tool for simple panels ( https://newwiremarine.com/product/e-panel-builder/). I played with the tool a little bit to get the size of holes I needed in the smallest panel I could specify. It took me a few iterations one evening and I was able to get it dialed in. The panel is some form of plastic composite and I was pleased the way it turned out. The one downside is that it was expensive (especially shipping) but it gave me a very nice looking panel that I could not have fabricated with my rudimentary skills or with out having to buy a 3d printer. If I had a 3d printer and the skills to use it, I probably would have taken that route.

I hope that helps.

Best Regards, Andrew


I have used these guys many times. Superb quality.

https://www.frontpanelexpress.com/

Cheers,

Nige

[PMD24]

Andrew and Nigel, thank you. I'll check out both.

Andrew, you got me thinking when you mentioned 3-D. My nephew has a small 3D printing business. I'll run this by him as well.

Pat

[AndrewIdaho]

Another beautiful sunny day (62 degrees). I was able to finish mounting the USB port and seat heater switches.
222793

Once the silicone dries, the next step will be to get them wired in (assuming the weather stays like today).

Andrew

[AndrewIdaho]

It has finally warmed up enough that I can work comfortably in the garage again. During the lull, I studied what was need to be done next as well as had cataract surgery on my eyes so hopefully I can drill holes with a little better precision.

Through March I worked on getting the dash switch holes drilled and switches temporarily installed. I am happy with the location and symmetry though the headlight switch needed a large washer to have it snug up. (Am I missing a bezel?). I am using the Mircroflex turn signal switch, controller and mounting bracket and got them installed using the wires from the steering column connector to make the needed connections and minimize the amount of wire splicing I would need to do.
227626

I added and wired up several relays to the system for reverse light, starter control from clutch switch or neutral switch, courtesy light as I am adding extra lights and additional acc drive for the EPB and power amp in the trunk I alluded to awhile ago.
227627

I am about 80% done with the wiring behind the dash (heater, wipers, EPB Switch, High Beam Switch done) with the turn switch and the sensor feeds left to complete. The following are a sequence of pictures from Driver Side to Passenger side:
227628 227629 227632

Once the wiring is done, I am currently planning to dress the wires with cable ties into neat bundles and not reuse the wire loom. If there is a reason I should not do this please let me know.

Questions and comments welcome.

Best Regards, Andrew

[AndrewIdaho]

I am still progressing the dash wiring.

I found an issue with the wipers not working and, with help from the forum members, I was able to work around it. More details can be found in this thread: https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?53439-Loose-Fuse-Panel-Wires-How-to-Fix

I then wired in the MicroFlex labs turn signal into the controller. I mocked up the rear and front turn lights using wire nuts as a temporary connection method and then tested the brake, turn signal and flasher functionality and all worked as expected.

228054 228055 228056

Next steps are to mock up the head lights and confirm the head light system work (on/off/high/low beam). I spent an hour or so trial fitting the headlight into its bucket. The instructions are not super clear for this newbie, but after some trial and error, I think I have it figured out:

228057

I notice that the surround ring counter sink screw diameter seems too large for the boss and it might lead to a cracked boss. I think I am going to replace this screw with one diameter size smaller.

Let me know if there are comments, suggestion or questions.

Thanks, Andrew

[edwardb]

...I notice that the surround ring counter sink screw diameter seems too large for the boss and it might lead to a cracked boss. I think I am going to replace this screw with one diameter size smaller.

It's pretty soft plastic and the screw cuts into it OK. Unless your received something different than what I have experience with, it's not a problem. You don't want to lose that ring. I've heard it's not available separately. Do what you're comfortable with though.

[Nigel Allen]

Can always drill a slightly larger hole in the plastic.

[AndrewIdaho]

It's pretty soft plastic and the screw cuts into it OK. Unless your received something different than what I have experience with, it's not a problem. You don't want to lose that ring. I've heard it's not available separately. Do what you're comfortable with though.

Thanks Paul for the feedback that the plastic is soft enough to support the screw. Attached is a photo with the screws I received with the two circled that I believe should be with the bosses (circled in second picture).

228097 228098

Are these the same screws that you have experienced?


Thanks, Andrew

[edwardb]

Thanks Paul for the feedback that the plastic is soft enough to support the screw. Attached is a photo with the screws I received with the two circled that I believe should be with the bosses (circled in second picture).

228097 228098

Are these the same screws that you have experienced?


Thanks, Andrew

The plated oval head (with countersink) screws are for the headlight trim ring. One for each headlight. There are two bosses circled in the second picture. The horizontal boss, lower one in your picture, is for the trim ring. The other screws hold the headlight assembly into the bucket. Several bosses like the second one you pictured. After you screw these in the first time they fit perfectly. Literally thousands of these have been built. Less than that by me :rolleyes: but the screws and bosses are fine as is. One issue with the headlight buckets that builders sometimes mention though is the little clips that hold the headlight into the mounting ring. Those are pretty fragile. I haven't broken any lately so maybe something changed. Just watch for that.

[AndrewIdaho]

The plated oval head (with countersink) screws are for the headlight trim ring. One for each headlight. There are two bosses circled in the second picture. The horizontal boss, lower one in your picture, is for the trim ring. The other screws hold the headlight assembly into the bucket. Several bosses like the second one you pictured. After you screw these in the first time they fit perfectly. Literally thousands of these have been built. Less than that by me :rolleyes: but the screws and bosses are fine as is. One issue with the headlight buckets that builders sometimes mention though is the little clips that hold the headlight into the mounting ring. Those are pretty fragile. I haven't broken any lately so maybe something changed. Just watch for that.

Great. Thanks Paul