302 decision...Carb "classic" 302 vs Coyote

[fauxbra5.0]

I'm sure that this discussion has been beaten to death already, but in planning my build, this is the 2nd toughest decision I have. This car is going to be my "4 wheeled motorcycle", taking it on weekend cruises, a little highway cruising into the Smoky Mountains or the occasional rip to the office in fair weather. Ive been battling the decision from a cost and complexity standpoint of going with a crate 302 (like a Fortes build), or a Coyote. Assuming a carb'd 302 (or even EFI'd) would be a serious cost savings compared to a Coyote, especially now with the Gen4s coming out. Some questions for those way more experienced than I am...



From a performance standpoint, I know the HP/Torque difference would be significant, but in terms of being "streetable", would there be a realistic difference (besides
From a build complexity & wiring standpoint, how much more complex is the Coyote than a crate motor for a relative novice?


What other factors am I completely missing here? Any and all advice is welcomed.

[rich grsc]

Can't address the wiring, but the Coyote is hands down winner in the performance and drivability department

[phileas_fogg]

When I built my car in 2015, the Coyote was the new kid on the block. I didn't want to be a pathfinder, so I chose the 302 with Holley Terminator fuel injection (sourced from Forte).

Now, the Coyote path has been cleared, marked, & paved; I would estimate it's no more difficult to install than the 302. Look up the build threads from edwardb and wareaglescott. Those two were the pathfinders, and did a fantastic job documenting how to install the Coyote. Based on my reading, they're about the same level of effort - just "different."

From a drivability standpoint, you can tame your beast however you want. I used Forte's mechanical linkage with my 302, and by moving the throttle linkage down the lever arms towards the pivot rod I eliminated all the twitchiness in the throttle response. The Coyote is drive-by-wire, so you'll have to do something different, but I haven't read of any complaints that the Coyote was too responsive to drive.

Both the 302 and the Coyote are going to require a tune. With the Coyote, you'll swap tuning files with a professional tuner (given your description of your level of experience, you're not going to tune the Coyote yourself).

With a carbureted 302, you'll either take it to a professional or take a few months learning how to tune it yourself. With EFI on your 302, you'll either swap tuning files with a professional tuner, or take a few months learning how to tune it yourself. Both fuel delivery systems require time & effort to learn how to tune. The only difference I see between the carburetor & EFI is the effort required to make a change; carburetor changes require some disassembly, swapping a component or two, & then reassembly, whereas EFI changes are done on a laptop. The sensors & data collection required to tune a carburetor are temporary in that you'll probably remove them once you're happy. The sensors & data collection required to tune your EFI are integrated into the EFI system. Personally, I REALLY LIKE having integrated data collection on the car; if something doesn't seem "right" I can drive a known route I've done 1000 times & got good data from, and then compare data logs to known data & get an idea where to start troubleshooting.

Bottom line is it's hard to go wrong with either choice.


John

P.S. If I were to build today, I'd go Coyote. But that may just be the grass looking greener from over the fence. ;)

[Mike.Bray]

FWIW, the 302 (or a 347) is period correct, fits nicely, and can be easily dressed up to look very nice. Carbs are ancient technology and don't play nicely with today's ethanol blended gas. The reason is gasoline will evaporate at the temperatures most of us like to cruise in, and that means the gasoline disappears and leaves the residue of the ethanol behind. It clogs the multitude of precision passages that make a carburetor function. Most carb tuning and advice is rooted in pre-ethanol times, so even using jetting and setup advice can be tough, as ethanol fuel behaves differently compared to “pure” gasoline. It's why you buy ethanol-free gas at Home Depot for your lawn mower. From first hand experience for reliability and drivability EFI is light years ahead.

The Coyote is amazing technology and if you order from Forte he supplies a free shoehorn to assist in installing it. I just removed the headers from my 351W to have them ceramic coated, I cannot even imagine doing that job with a Coyote as tight as it is.

[Blitzboy54]

I put a Sniper 306 in my first build. It was fine, but then again it was only fine. I am building my second soon and I am going with a Coyote. It's more expensive and currently harder to find (Gen 4x is now available but there will be learning) so you have to go rebuild or used. I have chosen the latter. I may tear it down and build it but I may not either.

With all that said I wanted a Coyoted 10 minutes after I got my 306 on the road.

[JohnK]

There's been lots of good discussion on the topic of coyote vs. pushrod V8 on the forum, so there's plenty for you to read and digest and agonize over. ;) I agree that this is one of the two toughest decisions to make (paint color being the other). After having installed a gen2 coyote in my roadster, here are a few random thoughts:

Wiring - yes, there's more wiring with a coyote, but it's not terribly difficult or complicated. IMO, there were other aspects of the dash wiring that were more "tricky". If you can wire up the rest of the dash, you can wire the coyote.

Looks - this is very subjective, but a pushrod V8 is going to win in the looks department, IMO. Especially the newer gen3 and gen4 coyotes that don't have a nice engine cover like the gen1 and gen2's did. I've seen some nicely dressed gen3's (see Edwardb's coupe, for example) that look very nice. but the coyotes are inherently a giant bundle of hoses and plastic covers.

Drivability - coyote wins hands down.

Sound - a coyote does not sound like a pushrod V8. It sounds like a modern Mustang. That's neither good nor bad, just what it is, if that matters to you. Some tuners have a "ghost cam tune" that tries to recreate a cam lope on the coyote. Not sure what I think about that.

The other thing to consider at this point is that all the gen3's are gone and the gen4's are not out yet. There's no telling what new and unique challenges the gen4 will present, or aftermarket parts that are needed that won't be released for a while. For example, look at Edwardb's coupe build. He was one of the earliest gen3 adopters and had to fabricate his own oil pan pickup tube. If you're a trailblazer and a good fabricator, it may not be a problem. Otherwise, you might be sitting around waiting for a while for the aftermarket to catch up on the gen4.

I'm sure others will chime in with other thoughts. Good luck!

-John

[JohnK]

The Coyote is amazing technology and if you order from Forte he supplies a free shoehorn to assist in installing it. I just removed the headers from my 351W to have them ceramic coated, I cannot even imagine doing that job with a Coyote as tight as it is.

I did it. On a lift it wasn't as bad as I feared. Not fun, but doable.

[Ted G]

4 wheeled motorcycle.... Exactly what I call mine.

I prefer the look of a small block but I have seen some Coyote engines dressed up very well. I have a carbed small block 427w (stoked 351) and love it. If you go carbed, I would suggest a manual choke and always good to add a vacuum gauge for tuning (and under the hood). If you go with EFI, you'll probably have less issues in tuning. Our great Sacramento Factory Five group has a mix of everything under the hood. See if you can find a local group and just ask around.

Ted

[Al_C]

I wrestled with the same question when I embarked on my build. I talked to a lot of people (as you are doing, too) and settled on the coyote. This was 2015-2016, and as noted above, it was all new. Not so much now.

My takeaways:
1. You get in the car, start it up and go. This is a production engine with new technology and it just runs. Very streetable, yet can get crazy if you so choose.
2. Yes, it will need a tune, but you will be very happy when you do it. I ran my Gen II without a tune for a year or so and it was rough at low rpm. Now it is smooth as silk.
3. I had never worked on an EFI engine, so I was the ultimate newbie. I got it done. So can you! The wiring is not all that difficult, there are only a few key integration points between the RF harness and the control pack harness. The instructions, and better yet, this Forum, will get you through it.
4. Were I to do this again, I would install full length headers rather than shorty headers and J-pipes. The J-pipes are the weak link. You also get less resistance and more power with the full length headers. It just means you have to install the headers while the engine is in the air, part way installed. I used stage 8 locking header bolts and highly recommend them. You cannot get at the rear cylinder header connectors once the engine is in. The stage 8 bolts ensure you won't have to.
5. The instructions, at the time, called for a different cooling system with a small, vertical overflow tank. I chose the "factory" plumbing route and am glad I did. Plenty of threads on that topic.

Obviously, you can see what I recommend. You might save a little time installing a 302, and possibly some money, but I can tell you I'm really glad I went with the coyote.

[fauxbra5.0]

I put a Sniper 306 in my first build. It was fine, but then again it was only fine. I am building my second soon and I am going with a Coyote. It's more expensive and currently harder to find (Gen 4x is now available but there will be learning) so you have to go rebuild or used. I have chosen the latter. I may tear it down and build it but I may not either.

With all that said I wanted a Coyoted 10 minutes after I got my 306 on the road.


When I built my car in 2015, the Coyote was the new kid on the block. I didn't want to be a pathfinder, so I chose the 302 with Holley Terminator fuel injection (sourced from Forte).

Now, the Coyote path has been cleared, marked, & paved; I would estimate it's no more difficult to install than the 302. Look up the build threads from edwardb and wareaglescott. Those two were the pathfinders, and did a fantastic job documenting how to install the Coyote. Based on my reading, they're about the same level of effort - just "different."

From a drivability standpoint, you can tame your beast however you want. I used Forte's mechanical linkage with my 302, and by moving the throttle linkage down the lever arms towards the pivot rod I eliminated all the twitchiness in the throttle response. The Coyote is drive-by-wire, so you'll have to do something different, but I haven't read of any complaints that the Coyote was too responsive to drive.

Both the 302 and the Coyote are going to require a tune. With the Coyote, you'll swap tuning files with a professional tuner (given your description of your level of experience, you're not going to tune the Coyote yourself).

With a carbureted 302, you'll either take it to a professional or take a few months learning how to tune it yourself. With EFI on your 302, you'll either swap tuning files with a professional tuner, or take a few months learning how to tune it yourself. Both fuel delivery systems require time & effort to learn how to tune. The only difference I see between the carburetor & EFI is the effort required to make a change; carburetor changes require some disassembly, swapping a component or two, & then reassembly, whereas EFI changes are done on a laptop. The sensors & data collection required to tune a carburetor are temporary in that you'll probably remove them once you're happy. The sensors & data collection required to tune your EFI are integrated into the EFI system. Personally, I REALLY LIKE having integrated data collection on the car; if something doesn't seem "right" I can drive a known route I've done 1000 times & got good data from, and then compare data logs to known data & get an idea where to start troubleshooting.

Bottom line is it's hard to go wrong with either choice.


John

P.S. If I were to build today, I'd go Coyote. But that may just be the grass looking greener from over the fence. ;)

John / Blitz - thats part of my concern, FOMO from going pushrod vs Coyote!

[JohnK]

The FOMO goes both ways. When I'm driving the car, I'm 100% convinced that the coyote was the right choice but there are still times I wish I'd gone with a 427 with Borla 8-stacks and 15's with Goodyear billboards. I guess I need to build another car so I can have one of each. :p

[fauxbra5.0]

I put a Sniper 306 in my first build. It was fine, but then again it was only fine. I am building my second soon and I am going with a Coyote. It's more expensive and currently harder to find (Gen 4x is now available but there will be learning) so you have to go rebuild or used. I have chosen the latter. I may tear it down and build it but I may not either.

With all that said I wanted a Coyoted 10 minutes after I got my 306 on the road.

The salvage Coyote does pose an interesting alternative. I know it will require a new transmission and a control pack. I'll have to research all of what needs to go into the conversion to make it work to see if it really is a viable option for me and my caveman set of skills :D

[fauxbra5.0]

The FOMO goes both ways. When I'm driving the car, I'm 100% convinced that the coyote was the right choice but there are still times I wish I'd gone with a 427 with Borla 8-stacks and 15's with Goodyear billboards. I guess I need to build another car so I can have one of each. :p

If you build two, I guess Ill just have to fly out to Cali and drive the other one so you have something good to look at while you drive haha

[gbranham]

When I set out to build my 2nd FFR, I was positive I was going to go with a Gen3 Coyote Crate engine. Ordered my kit in July of 2023, and planned to purchase a Gen3 crate sometime in 2025. What I didn't anticipate was that Ford would stop making them. I had ordered my Complete Kit with all the Coyote bits. I pivoted, and decided to build a 427W, using an aftermarket EFI system. FFR swapped my motor mounts, headers and driveshaft, and I sold the rest of the Coyote bits on this forum. I talked to Blueprint Engines about sourcing a 427W, and they told me in March of this year that it would be September at the earliest, if I ordered in March. I didn't have all my pennies saved up to buy a $25k drivetrain from BPE, and I knew it would take me some time to save that, THEN have to wait another 6 months after that to get my engine. So, I decided to build my own engine. I was happy to see Summit Racing sells curated packages of drivetrain bits specifically designed for the MkIV. I ordered their complete 427 Boss shortblock package, their top end package, and their oil system package, and bolted it all together myself. Ford small blocks are super easy to put together, and it's been a lot of fun. In the end, I'll have my drivetrain ready for drop-in long before I would've received a BPE, because I built it myself, and didn't have to pay for it all at once. Oh, and I saved around $5000 on the whole package, too.

So, I guess I'm saying I'm sort of glad Ford stopped selling the Gen3, because it steered me back to good ole fashioned pushrod power. Smaller package than the Coyote (easier to wrench on in the engine bay), around 100HP more, and (my opinion) a better sounding-package. Also, I didn't want to wait for the Gen4 crates to come out, for FFR to engineer any parts that may need to accompany it, etc.

Glad I went this direction.

Greg

[Mike.Bray]

I did it. On a lift it wasn't as bad as I feared. Not fun, but doable.

Only thing preventing me from this approach is low ceiling height and no lift:)

[nuhale]

They're out there. I just rebuilt one for a really great number vs. a new crate for my Coupe build. My MK4 has a crate gen 2 and after 12K miles have not looked back once. It's fairly easy. Some minor wiring but really just plug it in and go.

AL! You still can swap out headers bud!

[Al_C]

AL! You still can swap out headers bud!

Let's talk about that at the end of the season. We'll need a lift to do it, but I'll accept your help with the swap!

[BEAR-AvHistory]

Was a pioneer. Coyote powered roadster built over 2014. Street legal Feb 2015. Engine & transmission,TKO-600, package was bought from Summit Racing. FORD Racing was available to provide support. Was a pretty easy install even with having to shape the driver side inside footbox sheet metal. FFR now provides these pieces with the kit.

Wiring was pretty simple to marry to the RF harness with the provided instructions. Once tuned engine has yet to be touched except for fluid, filter maintenance & some lite modifications. Have done a lot of interesting engines over the years but found the Coyote to be an amazing unit. Just turn the key drive.

Some people don't care for the modern look but I don't really have to open the hood that much.:)

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=202022&d=1721414949

Its a tight fit but still drops right in with the transmission attached. Weighs about 444lbs

http://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/acurazine.com-vbulletin/1024x768/80-motors_0e5d4541ac33f4b6e40b0f605a69378f962b6199.jp g

Coyote 302 & Carb 302

[fauxbra5.0]

Very interesting find...has anyone seen "Swap The Universe" (MARS Auto Parts)? Any experiences I should know about their Turnkey Engine Pallets?

[MPTech]

A healthy 302/347 and a Coyote are 300 - 400 hp, so both are in the sweet spot for performance in these cars.
If it's important to you, what's it sound and look like?? The coyote is milder at idle and sounds very different at WOT.
Personally, when I open the hood, I want to see something more traditional and a SBF 427 with an EFI Stack injection is my dream.
I just had my 302 rebuilt to a healthy 347 with a Sniper EFI (more traditional carb look) and I'm excitied to get it on the street, but a Stacked 427 would be my next build! (also suggest installing a mechanical linkage vs a cable throttle and a Russ Thompson pedal (may be a Breeze pedal now(?)

Good Luch on your build!

[rthomas98]

This is my thoughts as I went 302 Carbed. It is only 255 HP. The car is plenty spunky but streetable. I do not have the carb issues others have mentioned but that is because I took the tedious time to tune it. Lot's of turning the car off let the carb/engine cool and make your adjustment etc. Usually a multiday affair to get it right. But once it is no issues. I went this route mainly due to cost. It was about $10k cheaper then a coyote.

That being said if you have the funds for the coyote do it. They are sucha great engine as it can go from fire breathing monster back to a purring kitten. But once again depends on how you drive it and tune it.

[edwardb]

Can't add a lot to what's already been said. Some random comments though: A Gen 3 Coyote with long tube headers and a custom tune is approaching 500HP. More than you'll get out of a 302 or even most 347's. So on that basis not exactly a fair comparison. HP = $$. I've had a 306, 347, and two Coyotes (Gen 2 and Gen 3). Both SBF's were carbed, but professionally tuned with a wideband O2 meter. So about as good as they can get. The drivability difference between the two (Coyote and SBF) is pretty significant in my experience. The Coyote starts up the torque curve at low RPM, so is easier to launch and is happy to putt around town short shifting at low RPM's if that's what you want. In other words, very friendly and easy. For some that's important. Of course, get into it and it gets crazy in a hurry. Loves to rev. Other than space issues (tight in a Roadster, easier in a Coupe) there's little/no installation difference between a Coyote and an engine with aftermarket EFI. They have similar components and wiring. I disagree that a Coyote in these builds sounds like a Mustang. With long tube headers and side pipes, no. Different than a pushrod engine. I agree with that. But not shrieky like your average Mustang. Especially when they put aftermarket exhaust systems on them. I don't like that sound at all. Everyone complements the sound of my Coyote powered Coupe. Doesn't lope at idle. But after having that for years in other cars, I'm over it. Gen 3's are no longer in production (stopped a couple years ago) and new are basically non-existent. Salvage is a solid option. The Gen 4 crate should be available this summer. Like every generation, might be some teething issues. But they all eventually get resolved. I wouldn't hesitate to plan a build around one. BTW, anyone seen the new Gen 4 cover? It's not bad... There are also adapters available to put it on a Gen 3. Looks decent. I get that many want the vintage look. As we say, it's your build. Do what you've always dreamed of doing. I take my cars to a lot of events (literally something every day of the week during the warm months here in SE Michigan) and I can tell you I've never gotten a negative comment regarding a modern engine in a vintage build. Most in fact like it a lot.

Yes, I'm a Coyote fan if it isn't obvious. :p

[Traveller]

Nothing to add that hasn't been said above except that I too love my coyote.

Also, I assume you've seen this where Dave and the guys discuss engine options? https://www.youtube.com/live/fpjwKZEgzj8?si=Pr_idx4S1444NC3k

[GoDadGo]

There is nothing wrong with any SBF nor the beloved Coyote; however, if I were ever to build another Factory-5 it would likely sport a Big Inch LS.

https://blueprintengines.com/collections/gm-compatible-ls-427-c-i/products/427ci-proseries-stroker-crate-engine-gm-ls3-style-dressed-longblock-with-fuel-injection-aluminum-heads-roller-cam-psls4272ctf

I know is not popular, but pound for pound with insane power plus a minimal footprint simply makes for a strong argument.

[OB6]

Extending this thought, I feel obligated to suggest the LS3 as an option with the drivability of the Coyote and the size of a SBF. And the sound of a pushrod.

Remember, these aren't Fords, Shelbys, or Cobras... they're Factory Fives.

I'll let myself out.



There is nothing wrong with any SBF nor the beloved Coyote; however, if I were ever to build another Factory-5 it would likely sport a Big Inch LS.

https://blueprintengines.com/collections/gm-compatible-ls-427-c-i/products/427ci-proseries-stroker-crate-engine-gm-ls3-style-dressed-longblock-with-fuel-injection-aluminum-heads-roller-cam-psls4272ctf

I know is not popular, but pound for pound with insane power plus a minimal footprint simply makes for a strong argument.

[Rebostar]

I have three Holley carb'd SBF's two 351's stroked to 427, one 302 stroked to 331. In addition I have 2 427 FE's one with dual Holley 600 cfm and one with a 850 double pumper. Once the Holley's are set up they're pretty reliable and dont need a lot of care and feeding. I only use ethenol free premium. (I can get it at 3 gas stations within 10 miles) A bit of a hassle but worth the trouble free operation.
As we are building a replica of a 1965 car, to me it only seems right to put a period correct engine in it. (even if we put in digital gauges and widgets in it.) I've never been a fan of owning a classic car that I needed a laptop to maintain. I also have a 2018 Mustang GT with Roush Stage II Supercharger I installed putting out 765 HP and 750 FT LBS of Torque. I had to upgrade the exhaust and entire suspension system to handle the power. I also had to take it to a Ford dealer to have them connect to Roush via the internet so they could set the computer up. Definitely not a fan of that being a mechanic for 45 years. (aviation, not automotive)
All this being said, for pure power and trouble free dependable driving its the Mustang hands down. For the fun, the nastailga, because I LIKE getting dirt under my fingernails and building classic muscle, its the Holley carb'd pushrod oil leakers that are the most fun.
So what do you want, fun and nastailga and something you will always have to tinker with, or get in push a button and your in a rocket sled with your hair straight back calling for your mommy?
Either way, you'll have fun.
Happy Trails

[ProfessorB]

I gotta say...... I just read this thread from start to finish. I am very IMPRESSED by the number of great, well-written, helpful and knowledgeable contributions. There is a wealth of expertise on this forum, contributed by people with no agenda except to be of help. It was a pleasure to read it thru...

[fauxbra5.0]

I gotta say...... I just read this thread from start to finish. I am very IMPRESSED by the number of great, well-written, helpful and knowledgeable contributions. There is a wealth of expertise on this forum, contributed by people with no agenda except to be of help. It was a pleasure to read it thru...

Agreed - I love this place already!

[fauxbra5.0]

Was a pioneer. Coyote powered roadster built over 2014. Street legal Feb 2015. Engine & transmission,TKO-600, package was bought from Summit Racing. FORD Racing was available to provide support. Was a pretty easy install even with having to shape the driver side inside footbox sheet metal. FFR now provides these pieces with the kit.

Wiring was pretty simple to marry to the RF harness with the provided instructions. Once tuned engine has yet to be touched except for fluid, filter maintenance & some lite modifications. Have done a lot of interesting engines over the years but found the Coyote to be an amazing unit. Just turn the key drive.

Some people don't care for the modern look but I don't really have to open the hood that much.:)

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=202022&d=1721414949

Its a tight fit but still drops right in with the transmission attached. Weighs about 444lbs

http://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/acurazine.com-vbulletin/1024x768/80-motors_0e5d4541ac33f4b6e40b0f605a69378f962b6199.jp g

Coyote 302 & Carb 302

I know 'size doesnt matter' but holy s#!t! Ive owned a Mustang with a Coyote in it, but that difference in footprint is staggering....

[F500guy]

I will chime in, as "Not an Engine Guy". Went with the carb'ed SBF for fun and nostalgia, 427 just beamed "Cobra". I would love to be able to build one with a Coyote as well, but got to start some where, and cost was not really a measurable difference when I priced them out. I love tech, but also love old school stuff because that gets as much ???? as new tech. I even kept the parking brake handle even though I have electric parking brakes because it looks "old"

[weendoggy]

For me 347SBF and Holley HP EFI and it rumbles nice. I also have my '02 Mustang GT that I Coyote swapped with stock computer. It rumbles smooth like a street car. Both cars get up and go, but the sound and power of the Cobra is a night/day driver to the Mustang. Both get tracked and both are different. Best thing about the two engines, it's much easier to work on the SBF in a Cobra than a Coyote in a Cobra. I too also like the look for the time period. jmo

[narly1]

For myself I consider my Speedstar to be my "magnum opus" project and part of that was the building of the engine for it. Building a car engine was something I'd always wanted to do and something that I had unknowingly been building up to for years. So going with a SBF 302 was a no-brainer in terms of a platform that would be simple to build with relatively good availability/affordability and a wealth of past build experience out there to draw on.

Sounds kind of like an FFR kit don't you think?

Earl

[Wizbangdoodle]

For me, this question comes down to, what look and feel do you want? I wanted an old school look, so I'm going with the stroked 351W. It will have pent roofed valve covers to mimic the old FE. I don't mind fiddling with the carb and tweaking things as needed. The Coyote eliminates a lot of that. It definitely fills up the engine bay, but you'll have modern reliability. Just my .02

[StangRacer]

You can't go wrong either way...

I like the original look of the pushrod engines and have enough parts laying around from my days racing that I could put together at least a couple of small blocks. I enjoyed building my race cars more than I did actually driving them so messing with carburetors and doing the maintenance required is not an issue.

What hasn't been mentioned, at least not that I have read about in this thread, is these cars weight 2300 lbs and have a 90" wheelbase. A very mild 302 small block with 300 hp gives a power to weight ratio of 7.67 lbs/hp. That is more than enough to get in trouble, and I am not just talking about trouble with the law... I have been involved in crashes in drag racing and road racing in cars with full cages wearing the full safety gear including a HANS device. When things go sideways it happens FAST and there is no way I would want to be involved in a crash on a public roadway without all of the safety equipment. I drag raced in a heads up naturally aspirated class with a 3100 lb foxbody Mustang with a 605 horsepower 349 small block. That car would run high 9's/low 10's in the quarter mile carrying the front wheels past the 60ft clocks. The power to weight ratio for that car was 5.12 lbs/hp. A mild 351 stroker engine will easily eclipse 450 hp - that is 5.11 lbs/hp in a FFR roadster.

I know it sounds cool to say "I have 500 hp under the hood" but you have to ask "what am I going to do with it?" There is no way to safely use it on public roadways.

Anyway, just some food for thought...

[fauxbra5.0]

You can't go wrong either way...

I like the original look of the pushrod engines and have enough parts laying around from my days racing that I could put together at least a couple of small blocks. I enjoyed building my race cars more than I did actually driving them so messing with carburetors and doing the maintenance required is not an issue.

What hasn't been mentioned, at least not that I have read about in this thread, is these cars weight 2300 lbs and have a 90" wheelbase. A very mild 302 small block with 300 hp gives a power to weight ratio of 7.67 lbs/hp. That is more than enough to get in trouble, and I am not just talking about trouble with the law... I have been involved in crashes in drag racing and road racing in cars with full cages wearing the full safety gear including a HANS device. When things go sideways it happens FAST and there is no way I would want to be involved in a crash on a public roadway without all of the safety equipment. I drag raced in a heads up naturally aspirated class with a 3100 lb foxbody Mustang with a 605 horsepower 349 small block. That car would run high 9's/low 10's in the quarter mile carrying the front wheels past the 60ft clocks. The power to weight ratio for that car was 5.12 lbs/hp. A mild 351 stroker engine will easily eclipse 450 hp - that is 5.11 lbs/hp in a FFR roadster.

I know it sounds cool to say "I have 500 hp under the hood" but you have to ask "what am I going to do with it?" There is no way to safely use it on public roadways.

Anyway, just some food for thought...

This is my concern as well. I want to have fun, and maybe play around sideways in a parking lot once or twice, but the only thing Mario Andretti and I have in common is our family's country of origin. I'm thinking somewhere in the range of 350-400hp (the power/weight ratio of a GT500 or Viper) would be more than enough to enjoy while also not being an absolute menace or widow maker.

[GoDadGo]

I'm thinking somewhere in the range of 350-400hp (the power/weight ratio of a GT500 or Viper) would be more than enough to enjoy while also not being an absolute menace or widow maker.


You should be very happy making 350-400 HP with similar torque figures.
I'm making 465 HP @ 6000 and 465 Torque @5200 at the flywheel.
The car is a dream to drive as long as you press into the throttle.
On Nitto 555's it was a tire burner but on Nitto NT05's it is great.
With 3.73 gears the car has run 11:30 @ 124 MPH on the 555's.

Good Luck & We Can't Wait To See Your Build Thread!

[fauxbra5.0]

You should be very happy making 350-400 HP with similar torque figures.
I'm making 465 HP @ 6000 and 465 Torque @5200 at the flywheel.
The car is a dream to drive as long as you press into the throttle.
On Nitto 555's it was a tire burner but on Nitto NT05's it is great.
With 3.73 gears the car has run 11:30 @ 124 MPH on the 555's.

Good Luck & We Can't Wait To See Your Build Thread!

350-400 makes the decision easier…that’s the build 302 from Forte's…will probably think about an EFI instead of carbs, though.

[Rebostar]

For me, this question comes down to, what look and feel do you want? I wanted an old school look, so I'm going with the stroked 351W. It will have pent roofed valve covers to mimic the old FE. I don't mind fiddling with the carb and tweaking things as needed. The Coyote eliminates a lot of that. It definitely fills up the engine bay, but you'll have modern reliability. Just my .02


Like this?
202073

[Mike.Bray]

For me, this question comes down to, what look and feel do you want? I wanted an old school look, so I'm going with the stroked 351W

Same for me, the wow factor when I open the hood combined with the rumble of a stroked 351W.

https://www.imagecoast.com/images/MichaelBray1/20240517101230mediumrotated.jpg

As far as the Coyote, I do like them; in Mustangs and old Broncos. For me I just can't get past how they look and sound in a Cobra.

[fauxbra5.0]

Same for me, the wow factor when I open the hood combined with the rumble of a stroked 351W.

https://www.imagecoast.com/images/MichaelBray1/20240517101230mediumrotated.jpg

As far as the Coyote, I do like them; in Mustangs and old Broncos. For me I just can't get past how they look and sound in a Cobra.

Damn, thats clean! Did you have issues tuning the Stack EFI?

[Mike.Bray]

Damn, thats clean! Did you have issues tuning the Stack EFI?

Not at all! I'm running a Fast Sportsman ECU. I entered the Displacement, # cylinders, # injectors, and injector flow rate into the software. Adjusted the TPS sensor to 0.5V and set the fuel pressure. Rough set the timing with the dual sync and she fired right up. After it was running I set the final timing with a timing light and balanced the throttle bodies. With this I was easily >95% there.

The software in aftermarket ECUs like the Sportsman and Holley Terminator combined with wide band O2 sensors are so good these days just about anyone can easily get an engine up and running.


https://youtu.be/qHq8oRfN5go

A word of caution though. The Sportsman and Terminator are high(er) end ECUs, they cost more but have a lot more capabilities. Less expensive systems like the EZ and Holley Sniper that advertise as being self-tuning often leave a lot to be desired. IMO it's truly a case f getting what you pay for.

[fauxbra5.0]

Not at all! I'm running a Fast Sportsman ECU. I entered the Displacement, # cylinders, # injectors, and injector flow rate into the software. Adjusted the TPS sensor to 0.5V and set the fuel pressure. Rough set the timing with the dual sync and she fired right up. After it was running I set the final timing with a timing light and balanced the throttle bodies. With this I was easily >95% there.

The software in aftermarket ECUs like the Sportsman and Holley Terminator combined with wide band O2 sensors are so good these days just about anyone can easily get an engine up and running.


https://youtu.be/qHq8oRfN5go

A word of caution though. The Sportsman and Terminator are high(er) end ECUs, they cost more but have a lot more capabilities. Less expensive systems like the EZ and Holley Sniper that advertise as being self-tuning often leave a lot to be desired. IMO it's truly a case f getting what you pay for.

I live by the saying “you get what you pay for”, and often times the option with the lowest barrier of entry has the highest ongoing costs/work involved. I’m all about that “set it and forget it” life.

[Mike.Bray]

I live by the saying “you get what you pay for”, and often times the option with the lowest barrier of entry has the highest ongoing costs/work involved. I’m all about that “set it and forget it” life.

It is soooo true. Take the Sniper, fantastic idea. A self-tuning EFI system that bolts on like a carburetor and contains everything you need except the fuel pump all for about $1k. Unfortunately the Sniper can be very problematic, there's entire forums dedicated to Sniper problems.

[fauxbra5.0]

Mike - on an unrelated note, I was reading through your build thread...been debating 3-link vs the IRS, and having a difficult time deciding between the two - especially given the price hike for IRS. How does your 3 link ride? Do you regret not going IRS? Anything you'd do differently (besides the paint shop you used)?

[TrackDay17]

Great thread, I've had the same thoughts on which engine to choose for my future build.
I keep thinking a fuel injected 347 would be the sweet spot for a pushrod engine.
Although the Coyote is probably a better performer I just prefer the looks and sound of the pushrod engines.
I guess it's growing up around my dad's sprint cars and that nasty loping idle that I love.

[edwardb]

Mike - on an unrelated note, I was reading through your build thread...been debating 3-link vs the IRS, and having a difficult time deciding between the two - especially given the price hike for IRS. How does your 3 link ride? Do you regret not going IRS? Anything you'd do differently (besides the paint shop you used)?

Not Mike... but this is a discussion much like the engine choice. You'll get lots of points of view and up to you to decide. My answer is short. I've had all three solid axle types (3-link, 4-link and Levy's 5-link) and two IRS builds. I prefer the IRS. Yes, there is a cost difference. But can be mitigated some and in the long run adds value. Here are some threads where this has been previously discussed:

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?42914-Question-3-link-or-IRS-Which-is-best-for-all-out-cornering-performance

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?16856-Rear-Suspension-choice-IRS-vs-3-link

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?42784-Ride-comfort-IRS-w-17-s-vs-3-link-w-15-s

[Blitzboy54]

Mike - on an unrelated note, I was reading through your build thread...been debating 3-link vs the IRS, and having a difficult time deciding between the two - especially given the price hike for IRS. How does your 3 link ride? Do you regret not going IRS? Anything you'd do differently (besides the paint shop you used)?


Just the like engine my first build was a 3 link. The car was by a mile the most elite handling vehicle I’ve ever driven. That is an individual statement as I only drive everyday cars for the most part and motorcycles are a different kettle of fish. Having said that the just like the pushrod I knew if I built another one it would be IRS. I’ve now driven both and the IRS is better IMO. Is it worth the extra $5000? It’s a personal choice. I will say this the difference in cost between a small block 3 link vs a coyote IRS is at least $10,000. If money is the issue you may want to go that route. You will absolutely not regret it.

Now if you really want to hit the trifecta you will ask about power steering next. :)

[fauxbra5.0]

Just the like engine my first build was a 3 link. The car was by a mile the most elite handling vehicle I’ve ever driven. That is an individual statement as I only drive everyday cars for the most part and motorcycles are a different kettle of fish. Having said that the just like the pushrod I knew if I built another one it would be IRS. I’ve now driven both and the IRS is better IMO. Is it worth the extra $5000? It’s a personal choice. I will say this the difference in cost between a small block 3 link vs a coyote IRS is at least $10,000. If money is the issue you may want to go that route. You will absolutely not regret it.

Now if you really want to hit the trifecta you will ask about power steering next. :)

I think the ONLY decision that’s 100% made is power steering! I’ve been lurking the forums long enough to know the all the benefits it provides. ;)

[Mike.Bray]

Mike - on an unrelated note, I was reading through your build thread...been debating 3-link vs the IRS, and having a difficult time deciding between the two - especially given the price hike for IRS. How does your 3 link ride? Do you regret not going IRS? Anything you'd do differently (besides the paint shop you used)?

I went with pin drive wheels so I needed the narrow rear end. With a lot of work and money I think I could have narrowed the IRS but it was just simpler to do the 3 link with a narrowed 8.8". And Forte had one in stock with the Wilwood brake setup.

To me it rides fine taking into account it's a 90" wheelbase high performance car and not your wife's grocery getter. For sure the IRS would ride a little smoother, not sure I can say by how much though. I will add that I installed the Breeze lower control arms (https://breezeautomotive.com/shop/rod-end-rear-lower-control-arm-kit/) which are a good upgrade from the arms FFR supply.

I always have a list of things I would do different on any car or project but with this one I'm pretty happy with it. If I did another one I might consider adding a hydraboost to the brakes.

[fauxbra5.0]

Not Mike... but this is a discussion much like the engine choice. You'll get lots of points of view and up to you to decide. My answer is short. I've had all three solid axle types (3-link, 4-link and Levy's 5-link) and two IRS builds. I prefer the IRS. Yes, there is a cost difference. But can be mitigated some and in the long run adds value. Here are some threads where this has been previously discussed:

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?42914-Question-3-link-or-IRS-Which-is-best-for-all-out-cornering-performance

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?16856-Rear-Suspension-choice-IRS-vs-3-link

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?42784-Ride-comfort-IRS-w-17-s-vs-3-link-w-15-s

Thank you as always for your expertise!

[drewr]

You've heard from all the right people on this site, and the discussion was a nice synopsis of how to think about the choice. The only thing not really addressed is that you should consider what your motivation is for building the car. If you like the idea of building your own performance car but are not really sure what engine to put in it, then you should probably go Coyote. If nostalgia or Shelby love has anything to do with your choice, I'd seriously consider a small block Ford. It was the Raison d'etre for the Cobra. Looks, sound, period correct, etc. Is a carbed push rod engine more of a PITA? Yes. But, it is the thing. All to say, just be sure you scratch the right itch.

[fauxbra5.0]

You've heard from all the right people on this site, and the discussion was a nice synopsis of how to think about the choice. The only thing not really addressed is that you should consider what your motivation is for building the car. If you like the idea of building your own performance car but are not really sure what engine to put in it, then you should probably go Coyote. If nostalgia or Shelby love has anything to do with your choice, I'd seriously consider a small block Ford. It was the Raison d'etre for the Cobra. Looks, sound, period correct, etc. Is a carbed push rod engine more of a PITA? Yes. But, it is the thing. All to say, just be sure you scratch the right itch.

Agreed on all points. Its like the legends of the forum showed up and educated my caveman mind!

[Avalanche325]

It really comes down to what you want and what you think a Cobra should be like. I wanted mine to be more old school in personality, not just looks. (OK, I do run an electronic distributor).

You do have to DRIVE you carbed car more. It takes some warmup. You have to be in the right gear at the right time. You also need a little finesse with your right foot. You can't romp it at 1600 rpms in 4th and expect it to be happy. To me, that is a huge part of a Cobra. Some people see that as an annoyance.

It is easy-peasy to get 500hp (crank) out of a 347. Heck that is still in the stock block and cast crank zone. You have to use aftermarket heads. Stock Windsor heads are the restriction, no matter what you do to them. If you do a 427 and don't have 500hp, I would think something is wrong.

9 years in, running pump premium and no issues at all with the carb. I live at the beach in Florida where moisture is crazy high. E-10 does absorb moisture, but only if it sits around. New carbs have better metallurgy and coatings. The "horror" pictures are usually very old carbs. Drive the car and if it is going to sit, fill the tank. Tons of people are running E-85 with a carb. Somehow, they seem to survive. I have never had vapor lock either. Again, I am in Florida.

[rich grsc]

IRS, I recommend it, and it won't be a $5000 upgrade. Sure it will cost more, but if you have 40-50k build, is another $2500-3000 really the NO ISSUE?

[TrackDay17]

Not at all! I'm running a Fast Sportsman ECU. I entered the Displacement, # cylinders, # injectors, and injector flow rate into the software. Adjusted the TPS sensor to 0.5V and set the fuel pressure. Rough set the timing with the dual sync and she fired right up. After it was running I set the final timing with a timing light and balanced the throttle bodies. With this I was easily >95% there.

The software in aftermarket ECUs like the Sportsman and Holley Terminator combined with wide band O2 sensors are so good these days just about anyone can easily get an engine up and running.


https://youtu.be/qHq8oRfN5go

A word of caution though. The Sportsman and Terminator are high(er) end ECUs, they cost more but have a lot more capabilities. Less expensive systems like the EZ and Holley Sniper that advertise as being self-tuning often leave a lot to be desired. IMO it's truly a case f getting what you pay for.

Mike Bray, that engine bay and sound is just amazing ! That stack injection looks so good !

[GoDadGo]

Here is a great video done by Hot Rod Magazine over a decade ago.
This will likely really help you do a real world powerplant comparison.

https://youtu.be/V96-AQ1FghI

If I were going with a short deck SBF I'd either go with a 347 or 363.

https://blueprintengines.com/collections/ford-compatible-small-blocks-347-c-i

Happy Engine Shopping!

[Blitzboy54]

IRS, I recommend it, and it won't be a $5000 upgrade. Sure it will cost more, but if you have 40-50k build, is another $2500-3000 really the NO ISSUE?

No, that's right. When i wrote that I looked at my invoice and added it up. I included the pumpkin, knuckles and hubs. Those parts are the equivalent of the rear end if you go with the 3 link. So that is a wash. The cost is actually under 3k. Rich is correct, sorry about that.

My Coyote math holds up

[fauxbra5.0]

I think I watch that video once a month. Such a great overview of the cars, options, and how they compare to one another. Thanks Steve!

[NiceGuyEddie]

Late to the party here, but I can't help but give my analogy that I've been sharing for 20 years:

How often do you shave?

Every day/ Every other day - go EFI.
Whenever - go Carb!

:p

[fauxbra5.0]

Late to the party here, but I can't help but give my analogy that I've been sharing for 20 years:

How often do you shave?

Every day/ Every other day - go EFI.
Whenever - go Carb!

:p

im too lazy to shave everyday…besides I’m half Italian and half wookie. I guess carb it is! Haha

[Jim1855]

im too lazy to shave everyday…besides I’m half Italian and half wookie. I guess carb it is! Haha

So I'm laughing...

I toyed with the idea of EFI but in the long run I like the simplicity of a carb. Once tuned they work well. I would however recommend a good carb and I'm a big fan of the ProSystems options. For me it's mechanical secondaries, no-choke or horn, big air cleaner and mechanical linkage.

I did just see a dyno run of a 340 Duster with new Holley Sniper. The throttle response was fast and it made great power.

Jim

[Dgc333]

FWIW, the 302 (or a 347) is period correct, fits nicely, and can be easily dressed up to look very nice. Carbs are ancient technology and don't play nicely with today's ethanol blended gas. The reason is gasoline will evaporate at the temperatures most of us like to cruise in, and that means the gasoline disappears and leaves the residue of the ethanol behind. It clogs the multitude of precision passages that make a carburetor function. Most carb tuning and advice is rooted in pre-ethanol times, so even using jetting and setup advice can be tough, as ethanol fuel behaves differently compared to “pure” gasoline. It's why you buy ethanol-free gas at Home Depot for your lawn mower. From first hand experience for reliability and drivability EFI is light years ahead.

The Coyote is amazing technology and if you order from Forte he supplies a free shoehorn to assist in installing it. I just removed the headers from my 351W to have them ceramic coated, I cannot even imagine doing that job with a Coyote as tight as it is.

I would have to disagree regarding carbs and ethanol gas not playing well together. I have a 68 Barracuda that I have driven just shy of 100,000 miles in the past 24 years and have used nothing but E10 gas (all that has been available since the 90s) and the carb has been trouble free. Also, FWIW, I have used nothing but E10 in all my lawn equipment since the 90s and haven't had an issue with them either.

[Mike.Bray]

I would have to disagree regarding carbs and ethanol gas not playing well together. I have a 68 Barracuda that I have driven just shy of 100,000 miles in the past 24 years and have used nothing but E10 gas (all that has been available since the 90s) and the carb has been trouble free. Also, FWIW, I have used nothing but E10 in all my lawn equipment since the 90s and haven't had an issue with them either.

That's wonderful!! I have no way of really knowing, I haven't owned any sort of car or truck with a carb since the late 80's. I did have some racing karts a few years ago with Rotax 2 stroke engines and carbs but these got completely disassembled and cleaned in an ultrasonic cleaner after every outing. Only carb i have now is on my leaf blower which I haven't been able to get started in several months.

[Mike.Bray]

How carb guys see EFI

https://www.imagecoast.com/images/MichaelBray1/efiwiring_2.jpg


How EFI guys see carbs

https://www.imagecoast.com/images/MichaelBray1/fbimg1718707686265.jpg

[rich grsc]

Your carb mechanic has the wrong sized wrench

[Jeff Kleiner]

How carb guys see EFI

https://www.imagecoast.com/images/MichaelBray1/efiwiring_2.jpg


How EFI guys see carbs

https://www.imagecoast.com/images/MichaelBray1/fbimg1718707686265.jpg

Well Mike, if you're going to go there I suppose it's time for me to post this again:

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=202262&d=1722274213

:p

Jeff

[fauxbra5.0]

Well Mike, if you're going to go there I suppose it's time for me to post this again:

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=202262&d=1722274213

:p

Jeff

Thanks Jeff & Mike...now I need to go clean all the soda I spit all over my desk... :D

[TBull]

I say to each their own. I'm somewhere in the middle. I have a Big Bore 347 with a cam sync and coil on plug with port injection and a 1000cfm throttle body. I'm very familiar with a 302 engine and can take this thing apart and rebuild any part of it. I have big paws and just find it hard working around a coyote in the roadster. I'm encouraged by Paul saying there is more room in the Coupe for a coyote. But with my EFI set up being run from a Holley HP+ I'm real happy, so to me it is a complex ask about how you want your car setup. I say put in what ever will make you the happiest and you think is cool. You can find plenty of examples of almost any engine combo, even the Redbone LS :)

[Mike.Bray]

Well Mike, if you're going to go there I suppose it's time for me to post this again:

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=202262&d=1722274213

:p

Jeff

That is hilarious Jeff!!

[GoDadGo]

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=202262&d=1722274213



Jeff,

You Forgot That Us Swamp Dwellers Like Those Things Fuel Drippy Things Too.
Please update your photo to the Edelbrock AVS or AVS-2.
The Performer Is So 20th Century!

Cheers,

Steve :cool:

[Mike.Bray]

The Performer Is So 20th Century!

And the carb is so 19th century!

[GoDadGo]

And the carb is so 19th century!

Yes, Mr. Mike you are 100% correct; however, I was speaking specifically about the Performer, versus the AVS Series carbs from Edelbrock.
Those carbs, as you know, trace their ancestry to the beloved Carter AFB fuel dispensers used on many cars in the 1960's.

[Mike.Bray]

Yes, Mike you are 100% correct; however, I was speaking specifically about the Performer, versus the AVS Series carbs from Edelbrock who ancestry came from the beloved Carter AFB fuel dispensers.

I once had a pair of Carter AFBs on top of a 6-71 blower on a SBC. It was interesting as the AFBs worked better on the huffer than Holleys did, I never could figure out the power valves for the blower. But that was almost 50 years ago!

Probably around 1990 I got my first Accel/DFI programmable ECU, the software was DOS based but still very powerful. The biggest limitation with those early systems were the narrow band O2 sensors and the crappy MAP sensors. With individual runner stack systems I had to run the system in Alpha-N mode using RPM and throttle position for the main fuel map as we couldn't get a decent signal from the MAP sensor. Today's systems are light years ahead! Fun times though.

[CW_MI]

I'm sure that this discussion has been beaten to death already, but in planning my build, this is the 2nd toughest decision I have. This car is going to be my "4 wheeled motorcycle", taking it on weekend cruises, a little highway cruising into the Smoky Mountains or the occasional rip to the office in fair weather. Ive been battling the decision from a cost and complexity standpoint of going with a crate 302 (like a Fortes build), or a Coyote. Assuming a carb'd 302 (or even EFI'd) would be a serious cost savings compared to a Coyote, especially now with the Gen4s coming out. Some questions for those way more experienced than I am...



From a performance standpoint, I know the HP/Torque difference would be significant, but in terms of being "streetable", would there be a realistic difference (besides
From a build complexity & wiring standpoint, how much more complex is the Coyote than a crate motor for a relative novice?


What other factors am I completely missing here? Any and all advice is welcomed.

I'm in the same predicament as you. Cost and complexity are my key deciding factors. I don't care about nostalgia, hp or underhood looks. And the car is only going to be a weekend driver, mostly to cars and coffee's or dinner with the wife. It will also split time between another weekend driver.
I've gone over my kit build up over and over. I thought I had settled on a Coyote / IRS so pivoted all my research towards those builds and the more I learned the more I was driven towards changing.

I'm now thinking a SBF , haven't decided on 347 or 427W yet, it has to be fuel injected, and a 3 link. I just think I can fit this within my budget better, and have more of a chance of completing the build myself, these kits were designed with the SBF in mind. I'll probably go with the Edelbrock Pro Flow 4 over the Holley Sniper though. I like the multi-port injection better, and feel it's a more robust system. The Holley Terminator and HP while probably better just have more things than I'll ever need, not mention, I'd have to have someone tune it for me.

I have no issues with carbs, years ago I did the opposite in my boat. Yanked out the injected 502 and dropped in a 540 with a Dominator on it. Now that the boat is gone, nothing I own has a carb anymore. The sleds, sxs, and all our vehicles are injected. With this vehicle, I just want to turn the key and drive it.

[narly1]

I'll probably go with the Edelbrock Pro Flow 4

This novice engine builder had good luck with the PF4 as far using it for my 302 project and getting it to start and run.

I haven't dropped it in the car yet but not anticipating any major issues.

Earl

P.S. My usage case for the car is much like yours.

[CW_MI]

This novice engine builder had good luck with the PF4 as far using it for my 302 project and getting it to start and run.

I haven't dropped it in the car yet but not anticipating any major issues.

Earl

P.S. My usage case for the car is much like yours.

Great to hear. Looking forward to hearing some of the drivability and tuning feedback, once you get the motor in. I have friends that own shops that swear by the higher end Holley systems, and I believe them. Although, they specialize in building 1000hp plus boosted motors for drag cars.

[fauxbra5.0]

I'm in the same predicament as you. Cost and complexity are my key deciding factors. I don't care about nostalgia, hp or underhood looks. And the car is only going to be a weekend driver, mostly to cars and coffee's or dinner with the wife. It will also split time between another weekend driver.
I've gone over my kit build up over and over. I thought I had settled on a Coyote / IRS so pivoted all my research towards those builds and the more I learned the more I was driven towards changing.

I'm now thinking a SBF , haven't decided on 347 or 427W yet, it has to be fuel injected, and a 3 link. I just think I can fit this within my budget better, and have more of a chance of completing the build myself, these kits were designed with the SBF in mind. I'll probably go with the Edelbrock Pro Flow 4 over the Holley Sniper though. I like the multi-port injection better, and feel it's a more robust system. The Holley Terminator and HP while probably better just have more things than I'll ever need, not mention, I'd have to have someone tune it for me.

I have no issues with carbs, years ago I did the opposite in my boat. Yanked out the injected 502 and dropped in a 540 with a Dominator on it. Now that the boat is gone, nothing I own has a carb anymore. The sleds, sxs, and all our vehicles are injected. With this vehicle, I just want to turn the key and drive it.

Sounds like you and I are in the same boat! Started with the Coyote/IRS, then debated 3-Links, and started looking at pushrod SBFs with EFI!

[CW_MI]

Sounds like you and I are in the same boat! Started with the Coyote/IRS, then debated 3-Links, and started looking at pushrod SBFs with EFI!

Exactly. Planning and research. I've got a livable document that I keep adding to, as my research progresses. Just different parts from vendors that will enhance the build, links to threads that offer tips and tricks to help the build go smoothly, etc.

And then, I might attend the build school, since it isn't really that far from where I live. All the research in the world isn't as good as actual hands on experience. And, I'm finding that all the reading here, can be somewhat overwhelming. I went down the rabbit hole of wiring and dash layouts last week...yeah, I'll just wait until I'm at that point of the build. LOL

[Mike.Bray]

I'm in the same predicament as you. Cost and complexity are my key deciding factors. I don't care about nostalgia, hp or underhood looks. And the car is only going to be a weekend driver, mostly to cars and coffee's or dinner with the wife. It will also split time between another weekend driver.
I've gone over my kit build up over and over. I thought I had settled on a Coyote / IRS so pivoted all my research towards those builds and the more I learned the more I was driven towards changing.

I'm now thinking a SBF , haven't decided on 347 or 427W yet, it has to be fuel injected, and a 3 link. I just think I can fit this within my budget better, and have more of a chance of completing the build myself, these kits were designed with the SBF in mind. I'll probably go with the Edelbrock Pro Flow 4 over the Holley Sniper though. I like the multi-port injection better, and feel it's a more robust system. The Holley Terminator and HP while probably better just have more things than I'll ever need, not mention, I'd have to have someone tune it for me.

I have no issues with carbs, years ago I did the opposite in my boat. Yanked out the injected 502 and dropped in a 540 with a Dominator on it. Now that the boat is gone, nothing I own has a carb anymore. The sleds, sxs, and all our vehicles are injected. With this vehicle, I just want to turn the key and drive it.

The 347 will be quite a bit less money than the 427 and still have more than enough power for you. And the Edlebrock Pro Flow is a really nice EFI system, check out the new feature it has where you can tune it from your phone.

I have the 3 link and so far I'm happy with it. If you go that route you want to upgrade the lower trailing arms to the Breeze ones. https://breezeautomotive.com/shop/rod-end-rear-lower-control-arm-kit/

[Mike.Bray]

And, I'm finding that all the reading here, can be somewhat overwhelming.

I'll pass on some words that have served me well for decades when working on projects like building a car. It's like eating an elephant, do it one bite at a time.

[CW_MI]

The 347 will be quite a bit less money than the 427 and still have more than enough power for you. And the Edlebrock Pro Flow is a really nice EFI system, check out the new feature it has where you can tune it from your phone.

I have the 3 link and so far I'm happy with it. If you go that route you want to upgrade the lower trailing arms to the Breeze ones. https://breezeautomotive.com/shop/rod-end-rear-lower-control-arm-kit/


I'll pass on some words that have served me well for decades when working on projects like building a car. It's like eating an elephant, do it one bite at a time.

Yeah, I agree, the 347 is plenty. The 427 is just for the cool factor, and the sound. Most of the ones I've researched have a pretty decent sized cam. Thanks for the heads up on the lower control arms, I've added them to my list.

And yes, another forum member has basically said the same thing. I tend to try and research as much up front as I can, with the hope I can get through projects without any surprises, but also find out that too much research can also hinder me as well. In other words, I overthink things.

[Mike.Bray]

I tend to try and research as much up front as I can, with the hope I can get through projects without any surprises, but also find out that too much research can also hinder me as well. In other words, I overthink things.

I'm an R&D engineer so I can relate!!

Some more words of wisdom, make a spreadsheet with everything listed that you purchase. It's a great reference tool later on. And then make a second one with "adjusted" prices on everything that you can show your wife:)

[Avalanche325]

The good news is that there is really no wrong answer. Any SBF or Coyote will make your car go down the road quite smartly.

If you have a HP rating in your head, make sure that you get it up front. I have seen a couple guys decide that they needed a little more and do an engine change. Cheaper to do it now.

Carbs and EFI both need to be tuned. Once tuned, you rarely have to touch either one. Some people make it sound like EFI gets installed, it learns, and it is perfect. That is what the marketing says. Yes, it will probably run decently. But, you will likely be leaving a lot on the table. Some want you to think that before EFI, cars barely ran, the carb had to be tuned every week, and if you went up a 10 ft hill you had to stop on the side of the road to change the jets. Simply not true. Factory EFI and carbs are both very dependable. Aftermarket EFI is a bit more hit and miss. I would do a lot of research before choosing. There is a lot of real-world experience here on the different systems.

[Mike.Bray]

Carbs and EFI both need to be tuned. Once tuned, you rarely have to touch either one. Some people make it sound like EFI gets installed, it learns, and it is perfect. That is what the marketing says. Yes, it will probably run decently. But, you will likely be leaving a lot on the table. Some want you to think that before EFI, cars barely ran, the carb had to be tuned every week, and if you went up a 10 ft hill you had to stop on the side of the road to change the jets. Simply not true. Factory EFI and carbs are both very dependable. Aftermarket EFI is a bit more hit and miss. I would do a lot of research before choosing. There is a lot of real-world experience here on the different systems.

To me, EFI is much easier to tune as I'm dealing with numbers and actual data. Yes, there's a learning curve with EFI as with anything. I agree self-tuning is not what's advertised, I never use it. The current systems like the Fast Sportsman and Holley Terminator are very very good. On my Sportsman I entered a few basic parameters like #cylinders, cu in, injector size, etc and it was easily 95% there. On a stack IR system. My personal opinion is the Sniper is a great idea but the reality is it's a low cost entry level system with quite a few issues that gives EFI a bad name. You truly get what you pay for.

I also agree carbs can be made to perform quite well (if you can find a good tuner these days) although never as well as EFI due to them being mechanical vs. digital and the poorer fuel atomization compared to high pressure injection systems. There's a tremendous advantage to being able to spray highly atomized fuel directly at the intake valve vs. relying on the Bernoulli effect to syphon fuel through an orifice.

And in 35+ years of playing with EFI systems I've not once had a float stick and flood the engine out:)

[CW_MI]

I'm an R&D engineer so I can relate!!

Some more words of wisdom, make a spreadsheet with everything listed that you purchase. It's a great reference tool later on. And then make a second one with "adjusted" prices on everything that you can show your wife:)

It must be the profession...Lol, design engineer in the automotive industry here.

[Avalanche325]

And in 35+ years of playing with EFI systems I've not once had a float stick and flood the engine out:)

I wasn't implying that carbs are a better fuel delivery system. I was just stating that there is a lot of misinformation that seems to pop up every time someone asks the question. You sound like the real-world experience person that the OP needs for choosing an EFI system. There are good EFI systems and problematic systems. There are also some carbs that I wouldn't touch.

I have never been stranded by a carb. I have had a cam position sensor fail that put my car on a tow truck. :p

[JMD]

I'll pass on some words that have served me well for decades when working on projects like building a car. It's like eating an elephant, do it one bite at a time.

I'll second that one. I'm about 2/3 of the way through the wiring now. I don't have the Coyote, not sure if that's harder or easier...but I've been able to get all my questions answered by install manuals or searching the forums. I'm very impressed with the schematics and labeling of the chassis harness and the Sniper 2 harness I'm connecting it to. If you know the basics of an engine and the basics of electricity and have access to the forum you can figure it out. The process of elimination has worked very well for me in many parts of this build. If you don't know how something works or goes together, do what you can with what you do know and reduce the variables involved. That makes the rest of it much easier to understand.

(Of course I haven't started my engine yet...we will see if I know what I'm talking about here shortly!)

[JMD]

To me, EFI is much easier to tune as I'm dealing with numbers and actual data. Yes, there's a learning curve with EFI as with anything. I agree self-tuning is not what's advertised, I never use it. The current systems like the Fast Sportsman and Holley Terminator are very very good. On my Sportsman I entered a few basic parameters like #cylinders, cu in, injector size, etc and it was easily 95% there. On a stack IR system. My personal opinion is the Sniper is a great idea but the reality is it's a low cost entry level system with quite a few issues that gives EFI a bad name. You truly get what you pay for.

I've heard some mixed impressions on the Sniper system and it's shortcomings. It seems they may have addressed those concerns in the Sniper 2, which is why I went that route. Lots of threads and videos on how to fix the original Sniper issues, almost none about the Sniper 2. Hopefully that's because it's working as anticipated, not because no one is using it anymore. ;)