Coyote Control Pack Question(s)

[Blitzboy54]

All you Coyote guys,

I am trying to plan for my next build (I'll give you 3 guesses what engine I'm putting in it) I want to understand a little about the control pack. Here is what I think I know. No matter what generation motor I use I need a control pack. This can be purchased through Ford racing or there are some other vendors that offer them as well (Holley, PBH performance). Here is where I am a little stuck

1. If I buy an engine out of a manual Mustang and it has the PCM and cabling can I just use that?
2. What if I pull the same parts out of an automatic?
3. What if I pull a coyote out of a F150?
4. Can I use a crate motor and a PCM from a donor Mustang or vise versa?

I guess my question is what do I need to do to make that a functionally running engine (understanding I will tune it later)

Right now I am considering purchasing a Gen 3 long block and finding the rest of the parts but there are some lightly used drive trains out there that I have some confidence in as well. I am just not entirely sure what I need so it is harder to make an informed decision.

As always, I really appreciate any help you guys can offer. This board is a national treasure.

Thanks

[nuhale]

The issue you will run into is the stock mustang computer is programmed to control many systems not used in our builds. You can have the computer reprogrammed but I haven’t really found many positive experiences (sure some out there). I too tried to find a cheaper alt as the control packs are insane these days. I was lucky to find one unused on FB for a good discount for current gen2 coyote build. After a good amt of research I just gave in that the ford performance control packs best option. The harnesses are different for the manual/auto setups. I’ve read some posts here and outside of the FFR community of folks using mustang harnesses but they require significant surgery to remove redundant wiring. F150 engines can be converted to mustang setups with cams/phasers. It’s not as daunting as I just rebuilt a coyote but if you can find a mustang donor I would go that route unless the deal is too good to pass.

[Blitzboy54]

Thank you! That is exactly what I needed to know!


Anyone have experience with Power by the Hour?

[Alan_C]

As said, the a donor engine from a Mustang GT is the way to go. The truck motors are significantly different, but folks at shops like PBH can get it done. Holley is an alternative now, but not sure if their PCM will control the variable CAM and intake timing? The Ford Performance control pack for the correct generation of the Coyote is the easiest way to get where you want to go.
The engine harness on a donor engine is no different than what would come on the crate engine. I confirmed that with Ford Performance. If your donor engine is from an automatic, no worries as the harness simply has the AT connector and wiring. You do not have to use it, just will support either transmission.
The controls pack provides what I call the body harness, that is the harness that connects to power and a few of the kit Ron Francis harness wires. I am putting a 2nd Gen Coyote into a 70 vintage Mustang. I am using the Controls Pack and an American Autowire harness for the rest of the car. There are only a few interconnections required just like the Ron Francis harness.
With the right guidance, it is all pretty easy, but I am a retired electrical engineer and wiring does not intimidate me.
Good luck, plenty of knowledge here to help you.

[nashuanuke]

If you buy a harness from Ford Performance today, it'll be a Gen IV, which can be programmed for Gen III, is basically the same, but some of the connections are different. To that point, it's awfully hard to find crate Gen IIIs anymore, Ford just started selling crate Gen IVs, I don't think anyone has put one in yet, but I'm betting, since I'm using a Gen III with a Gen IV harness, it's not going to be too different.

[Blitzboy54]

I may have stumbled on a Gen 1 crate engine that was pulled from a project car. I put a deposit on it. I have credible information that it has less than 20k miles. It is being shipped to a local shop for inspection. If all is clear I will have the entire drive train for $6500. It's a good start.

Thank you all for the help. Ford Control pack for the win.

[Jeff Kleiner]

I may have stumbled on a Gen 1 crate engine that was pulled from a project car. I put a deposit on it. I have credible information that it has less than 20k miles. It is being shipped to a local shop for inspection. If all is clear I will have the entire drive train for $6500. It's a good start.

Thank you all for the help. Ford Control pack for the win.

Ford control pack for that gen1 runs about $2,500.

When you say "entire drive train" what all are you talking? Rear end from that generation is not useable so it only has trade/swap value. The transmission that was used in the 2011-14 (Gen1 Coyote years) Mustang is Getrag MT82 6 speed. Personally I'm not a fan. They were known to be problematic experiencing high RPM lockouts, gear clash, premature wear and failure. In 2020 a class action lawsuit was filed against Ford alleging that they were aware of the issues but continue to use the transmission. Their gear ratios are less than ideal for our cars with a super deep first gear ratio of 3.66 (great for pulling stumps in the back 40 or launching an overweight Mustang but not so much for a 2,200 pound Cobra!) and has a big step between first and second. Beyond these issues if you wish to use it in our cars the shifter has to be relocated to the tune of about 900 bucks. The trans doesn't have a slip yoke and instead uses a funky rubber Guibo joint. This has to be replaced with a companion flange and then requires a custom driveshaft incorporating a slip joint. MT82s have been used but in the end the money spent to make them workable for a Mk4 application might be better spent on a TKX...but that's just one guy's opinion. Just want you to be aware of the "big picture"---if parts of that "entire drive train" are unusable or undesirable that $6,500 might not be such a great deal after all ;)

Jeff

[juddster]

I used a Gen2 from a 2017 GT along with the MT82. I bought the entire car and then used the engine and engine bay harnesses to create a harness. It worked and that saved me the cost of a control pack. (I did a write up on it in the forum). The MT82 conversion from Forma works well and is built well, but like Jeff said it is about $900. I had to do the custom drive line and it was $950. If I were to do it again I would have sold the 6 speed on eBay which would have covered a lot towards a TKX and then saved the nearly $2K to adapt the 6 speed. I think I liked the idea of a 6 speed more than I liked the 6 speed.

[Blitzboy54]

Ford control pack for that gen1 runs about $2,500.

When you say "entire drive train" what all are you talking? Rear end from that generation is not useable so it only has trade/swap value. The transmission that was used in the 2011-14 (Gen1 Coyote years) Mustang is Getrag MT82 6 speed. Personally I'm not a fan. They were known to be problematic experiencing high RPM lockouts, gear clash, premature wear and failure. In 2020 a class action lawsuit was filed against Ford alleging that they were aware of the issues but continue to use the transmission. Their gear ratios are less than ideal for our cars with a super deep first gear ratio of 3.66 (great for pulling stumps in the back 40 or launching an overweight Mustang but not so much for a 2,200 pound Cobra!) and has a big step between first and second. Beyond these issues if you wish to use it in our cars the shifter has to be relocated to the tune of about 900 bucks. The trans doesn't have a slip yoke and instead uses a funky rubber Guibo joint. This has to be replaced with a companion flange and then requires a custom driveshaft incorporating a slip joint. MT82s have been used but in the end the money spent to make them workable for a Mk4 application might be better spent on a TKX...but that's just one guy's opinion. Just want you to be aware of the "big picture"---if parts of that "entire drive train" are unusable or undesirable that $6,500 might not be such a great deal after all ;)

Jeff

I was mostly referring to the engine. The best I can find on the open market for a gen 3 is a long block for $7000 plus everything it needs ($5000 to complete the engine and control pack). A well cared for gen 1 complete is worth the price of admission in this case. I was excited about making the MT82 work until I read the gearing is not ideal.

I am likely to go with a T56 but it’s real early. I haven’t even received the call back from FFR to confirm my order yet.

At the end of the day I will take Jeff’s advice before I don’t take Jeff’s advice.

[Blitzboy54]

I used a Gen2 from a 2017 GT along with the MT82. I bought the entire car and then used the engine and engine bay harnesses to create a harness. It worked and that saved me the cost of a control pack. (I did a write up on it in the forum). The MT82 conversion from Forma works well and is built well, but like Jeff said it is about $900. I had to do the custom drive line and it was $950. If I were to do it again I would have sold the 6 speed on eBay which would have covered a lot towards a TKX and then saved the nearly $2K to adapt the 6 speed. I think I liked the idea of a 6 speed more than I liked the 6 speed.

Is it the 6 speed or that 6 speed? There is a significant price difference between the TKX and the T56.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Personally I have a hard time seeing the appeal of a 6 speed (T56 or otherwise) beyond the sexy factor. Careful selection of TKX ratio combinations and rear end ratio makes the extra gear unnecessary. Again, just one guy’s opinion.

Heff

[Blitzboy54]

Personally I have a hard time seeing the appeal of a 6 speed (T56 or otherwise) beyond the sexy factor. Careful selection of TKX ratio combinations and rear end ratio makes the extra gear unnecessary. Again, just one guy’s opinion.

Heff

That's really good to know. Because it was 100% the sexy factor for me. I will give some real thought to it before purchasing. As of this moment I have a 3:55 on order in the back. Is there a preference in combination that makes the 3:71 more appealing? I really like acceleration over top speed at the same time I don't really want a super short first gear.

[Jeff Kleiner]

That's really good to know. Because it was 100% the sexy factor for me. I will give some real thought to it before purchasing. As of this moment I have a 3:55 on order in the back. Is there a preference in combination that makes the 3:71 more appealing? I really like acceleration over top speed at the same time I don't really want a super short first gear.

I'd go with the TCET17765. When combined with a 3.55 rear end it's 2.87:1 first gear and .68 fifth will put you right in the sweet spot on both ends. First gear will net a 10.18:1 overall reduction and fifth gear overall will be 2.41:1.

Jeff

[Blitzboy54]

Then that’s what I shall do. Thanks Jeff, that’s really helpful

[42Bfast]

You asked about PBH control pack, I have used them for my Gen1 Coyote. I’m not on the road yet but have run a bit in go-cart. Everything seems to be as it should be. They were helpful and supportive. The module itself appears to be the same Continental unit that others use.

Side note on the Coyote generations: It’s correct that for the Gen2, if you want to use a truck engine you will need to change out the cams, ect., as the firing order is different between the Mustang and F150.
However, for the Gen1, the firing order is the same thus, the truck engine can be used without changing out the cams. However you will still need to change the timing cover which affects the mounting locations of several components.

[Blitzboy54]

Thank you! I just found a Gen 2 with 13k miles and pulled the trigger. The PBH control pack saves you 500-600 dollars so definitely worth considering. I am going to call them on Monday.

[Lidodrip]

Thank you! I just found a Gen 2 with 13k miles and pulled the trigger. The PBH control pack saves you 500-600 dollars so definitely worth considering. I am going to call them on Monday.

I bought a Gen 2 with 15k miles and couldn't he happier. I am also using the same TKX/rear end combination that Jeff mentioned - as usual, he is spot on.

James

[weendoggy]

Not in my Cobra, but did a Coyote swap in my '02 Mustang. Did a Gen1 from a salvage car I bought (sold the Gertrag). Used stock PCM, stock harness, did my own wiring, used PBH for front setup, swapped out my T3650 for a TKX and it runs great. Easy way to do it without the need of a special tune. jmo

[54coyote]

Amazing work juddster.
PM sent

[cdurbin328]

I went the exact same route as you and agree. If I did it again I would have sold the MT82 and just went with the TKX.
Other than that no complaints or issues after almost 2 years of driving.

[Takis31gk]

Gen 3 coyote here, we ordered the control pack from summit racing specific for our engine. Would recommend going with the stand alone Ford ECU/control pack.

[Myron Nelson]

For you guys scrounging parts, FFR erroneously sent me a Gen3 header kit for my Gen4 engine. After they sent me the correct kit, I asked them if they wanted the old ones back and they said "No"
Therefore I have a complete Gen3 header kit sitting idle. Make me an offer.