Time to Design a New Shop

[Papa]

As many of you know, I'm moving to Missouri in a couple of weeks. I now have the opportunity to design and build another shop. Here is an initial design idea I've drafted up:

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=197061&d=1710875720

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=197062&d=1710875720

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=197063&d=1710875720

As drawn, the building is 50' wide x 30' deep with an additional 20' x 12' workshop and bathroom area. The center door on the front is 16' x 10' and the three smaller doors are 10' x 9'. The ceiling is 12' to accommodate a lift and the left bay is a drive-through for my tractor.

What would you all do differently? The size is constrained by the building envelope that I have, so I can't go bigger than the 1,740 square feet that I have with maybe some minor tweaks possible (a foot here or there).

[65 Cobra Dude]

I love it, one thing to consider is wall space for shelving and a work bench.

Henry

[progmgr1]

Since you plan to have a lift, I suggest you put your tools in roller cabinets. That way everything you need can be close at hand when you are working under the car. I didn't have the floor space available to go that way and hung all my tools on the walls or in wall anchored cabinets. I've regretted that decision every time the lift is up and I have to scoot out to grab another tool or part.

Keith HR #894

[RoadRacer]

Can you go up? When I built mine (at an old house) I had dormer windows put in and had an office/rec room above. Made a huge difference and a great place to take meetings, watch car movies, etc

I realized how awesome chains on a roller door were too, to save on ceiling space. My 4 post lift could just roll outside with my car on it.

197067

[Nigel Allen]

Provision to mount air compressor externally to reduce noise. Have a remote switch with indicator lamp. Mine is near entry door, so I don't forget to shut it off.

[Papa]

Since you plan to have a lift, I suggest you put your tools in roller cabinets. That way everything you need can be close at hand when you are working under the car. I didn't have the floor space available to go that way and hung all my tools on the walls or in wall anchored cabinets. I've regretted that decision every time the lift is up and I have to scoot out to grab another tool or part.

Keith HR #894

I will definitely consider roll-up doors. It will help with lighting options as well.

[Papa]

Since you plan to have a lift, I suggest you put your tools in roller cabinets. That way everything you need can be close at hand when you are working under the car. I didn't have the floor space available to go that way and hung all my tools on the walls or in wall anchored cabinets. I've regretted that decision every time the lift is up and I have to scoot out to grab another tool or part.

Keith HR #894

My toolbox rolls, but I also have a small rolling cabinet that I use for exactly what you described when working on a project under the car.

[Papa]

Can you go up? When I built mine (at an old house) I had dormer windows put in and had an office/rec room above. Made a huge difference and a great place to take meetings, watch car movies, etc

I realized how awesome chains on a roller door were too, to save on ceiling space. My 4 post lift could just roll outside with my car on it.

197067

I looked at some plans that have space above the main area, but the house is a 1-story, so going up will likely not be approved by the community. I should also mention that the attached garage is over 1,200 square feet!

[Jeff_J.]

Have you thought of exhaust and/or air circulation fan? Being from an area where it gets cold I always think about heat for the chilly months but insulation works for cool as well as heat. Colorado gets every kind of weather so I'm sure you have this covered.
Have fun with this Dave..

[Jeff Kleiner]

What would I have done differently? Radiant floor heat rather than forced air. Almost did it but went for cheap, easy and quick and regret it every winter. I don’t care about cooling for the summer months; I’d much rather have the doors up and be hot rather than cool with everything closed up. I put a washer and dryer in the bathroom for rags and filthy work clothes and am glad that I did (plus it goes a long way for marital harmony ;)).

Jeff

[Papa]

Have you thought of exhaust and/or air circulation fan? Being from an area where it gets cold I always think about heat for the chilly months but insulation works for cool as well as heat. Colorado gets every kind of weather so I'm sure you have this covered.
Have fun with this Dave..

I haven't looked at what sort of environmental controls I will use yet. I love the Modine heater I have in my shop now and it is cheap to operate through the winter. I was looking at mini-split systems to do both heat and A/C.

[Papa]

What would I have done differently? Radiant floor heat rather than forced air. Almost did it but went for cheap, easy and quick and regret it every winter. I don’t care about cooling for the summer months; I’d much rather have the doors up and be hot rather than cool with everything closed up. I put a washer and dryer in the bathroom for rags and filthy work clothes and am glad that I did (plus it goes a long way for marital harmony ;)).

Jeff

Another great option to consider. Thanks, Jeff.

[Jeff_J.]

2x on the in floor heat.

[RJD]

Since your car is done...wet bar, pool table, big screen TV, sofa, popcorn maker.

[Al_C]

What are you planning to build in it? I bet you could do a coupe, XTF and hot rod all at the same time... ;) I think the plans look great!

[kirby]

If I could build mine again I would have made all my doors 10x10 minimum. Getting trailers or boats in is difficult.

I put a pull down ladder and storage area in my attic and it has been awesome!!

There is never enough lighting, spray foam the walls, blown cellulose in the attic. I am happy with my forced air furnace for my shop. I use a low temp thermostat and keep it at 35 in the winter and my shop heats up in about 15 minutes to 55.

What part of Missouri?

[Papa]

What are you planning to build in it? I bet you could do a coupe, XTF and hot rod all at the same time... ;) I think the plans look great!

No new project plans at this time, but I won't rule out doing a Coupe at some point. I've also thought about the RCR GT40, but I may not be ready for that level yet.

[Papa]

If I could build mine again I would have made all my doors 10x10 minimum. Getting trailers or boats in is difficult.

I put a pull down ladder and storage area in my attic and it has been awesome!!

There is never enough lighting, spray foam the walls, blown cellulose in the attic. I am happy with my forced air furnace for my shop. I use a low temp thermostat and keep it at 35 in the winter and my shop heats up in about 15 minutes to 55.

What part of Missouri?

Mexico. I've been having fun telling people I'm moving to Mexico.

[Lidodrip]

I would echo Jeff's comments about radiant heat. If you are not sure, you could run pex tubing in the floor so you keep the option open for the future - it does not cost much and you lose nothing by doing so.

You might want to consider adding more natural light. Transom windows are a good solution (over garage doors, work bench areas) because they are up high (more effective) and do not significantly reduce usable wall space.

I wish I had paid more attention to how the electrician wired my garage - it would be nice to have 20 amp outlets (I have 15 amp). Also, give some thought as to where you might want 240v runs and lighting. Make sure you have wifi.

Finally, using 3/4 wood sheathing (plywood, OSB, etc) on the inside of the walls allows you to mount anything anywhere you want, freeing you from the constraints of needing to screw into studs. It is not that expensive to do and you can still cover it with sheetrock.

Such a fun project!

James

[J R Jones]

A lift (weight) requires a thicker floor or footings. Pick a bay (center) and have that floor poured heavy, the rest can be conventional.
Exhaust fans can be good for your health.
jim

[GoDadGo]

If you plan to get a two post lift, make sure your ceiling height is adequate to accommodate it.

https://www.bestbuyautoequipment.com/bendpak-2-post-lifts-s/494.htm

I'm sure your shop will be amazing.

[Bob Cowan]

The best thing I ever did in my garage was a deep sink with hot and cold faucets.

[Papa]

A lift (weight) requires a thicker floor or footings. Pick a bay (center) and have that floor poured heavy, the rest can be conventional.
Exhaust fans can be good for your health.
jim

I'll spec the slab for a lift. Based on what I see from BENDPAK, I'll need a minimum of 4.25" 3000 PSI for pretty much any 4-post lift that I would consider.

[Papa]

If you plan to get a two post lift, make sure your ceiling height is adequate to accommodate it.

https://www.bestbuyautoequipment.com/bendpak-2-post-lifts-s/494.htm

I'm sure your shop will be amazing.

Yep -- Been there, done that!

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=89015&d=1531782500

I'm looking at this one for the new shop:

https://www.bendpak.com/car-lifts/four-post-lifts/gp-9xlt/

[rthomas98]

I highly recommend built in floor drains if you are allowed to do it. I did it in my garage at a recommendation from a friend best decision ever. able to easily wash and clean the floors. I even put water proof panelling on one of my walls so I can hang floor mats etc to power wash. No more waiting for the best day to do that kind of stuff.

[JimStone]

If I had the $$$, I'd want garage doors with full window panels. Let there be natural light!

[Papa]

If I had the $$$, I'd want garage doors with full window panels. Let there be natural light!

I love these lights: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07V7FM786/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

They essentially turn the interior of the shop into daylight. Here are some pics:

#1 - Basic garage light

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=197094&d=1710967199

#2 - Two sets of fluorescent (4 bulbs each)

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=197095&d=1710967199

#3 - Five of the UFO lights (35,000 lumens each)

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=197096&d=1710967199

[Winchester67]

Welcome to Missouri! I am in Columbia...few car people around here!197099

[Papa]

Welcome to Missouri! I am in Columbia...few car people around here!197099

Cool! We're practically neighbors!

[Jeff Kleiner]

I love these lights: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07V7FM786/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

They essentially turn the interior of the shop into daylight.

Dramatic difference Dave! I have to have a lot of light and replaced all of my fluorescents with 48" 10,000 lumen LED strips. Shop side has 9 on the ceiling and 4 on the walls for 130,000 total and the paint side has 7 on the ceiling and 8 on the sidewalls for 150,000. It's really is like daylight!

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=197100&d=1710973757

Jeff

[cob427sc]

My old garage was 30'x50' with 2 10x10' overhead doors, man door and 12' clear. How I miss that garage! I now have a 3 bay with 3, 9'x10' doors; 28' deepx32' wide, way to small for cars. tools, etc. I have most everytning on wheels including a roll around bench. I made one bay cathedral for the floor lift going up to i6' in height and the other bays are 10' high. Definitely go with the lumen strips. Makes all the difference in the world and add plenty of electrical outlets plus a couple of 240"s for the welder and other big tools. Good luck!

[Windsor]

I've heard roll-up doors are difficult to seal when you want to keep the outside temps outside.

You can do high-lift doors instead, Frank/i.e.427 has a video or two where he installed the door high-lift style in his new shop. Get a "direct drive" door opener so that you don't have a center track running right in the way of the lift. The direct drive opener will require power in the wall next to the door instead of the ceiling, so plan accordingly with your electrical.

Since you're talking Missouri, you may have to contend with humidity. Mini-split HVACs are relatively good for that but double-check the controls have a means to monitor/address humidity.

Lastly, what app are you using for modeling?

[Papa]

I've heard roll-up doors are difficult to seal when you want to keep the outside temps outside.

You can do high-lift doors instead, Frank/i.e.427 has a video or two where he installed the door high-lift style in his new shop. Get a "direct drive" door opener so that you don't have a center track running right in the way of the lift. The direct drive opener will require power in the wall next to the door instead of the ceiling, so plan accordingly with your electrical.

Since you're talking Missouri, you may have to contend with humidity. Mini-split HVACs are relatively good for that but double-check the controls have a means to monitor/address humidity.

Lastly, what app are you using for modeling?

Thanks for the comments. I did a high-lift track on the 14' back bay in my current shop and used header mount openers on both doors, which I definitely like. Thanks for the tip on the humidity controls. I've never seen a mini-split setup, but will do my research. The software I'm using for the design is DreamPlan Home Design, which has a free trial version you can order and download from Amazon. It's very basic, but enough to get some decent visuals. The non-trial version is $40.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07SKCL7XX/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_d_asin_title_o01?ie=UTF8&th=1

[burchfieldb]

I would echo the comments on the led lights, heated floor, and spray foam insulation. I did the radiant floor heat and would do it again. No cold spots in the garage, the floor is warm when crawling around under the car, and it is really easy on the heating bill. I did do a sealed tankless water heater, since I also do wood working. I have a PTAC wall unit for emergency heat and for A/C when it is really hot, which is really nice when you need it. Those can be self installed, since they go through the wall. My garage is 24x32 with a 16ft ceiling in the center. I did a compressed installation that is the R value of a 2x6 wall in a 2x4 wall. I keep it at 60 degrees in the winter and the heater hardly runs. Especially when the lights are on, they keep the temp up above 60, unless it is really cold out. The heater might run once of twice on a cold day for 15 minutes. I would also echo adding a loft if you can and a pull down ladder for easy access. I used the space between the joist to store stuff, the beam to lift things and support the library ladder. I also built a cantilevered shelf for storage and plan on adding drawers below, between the supports, for more storage. There is a library ladder with that shelf as well for easy access. More windows is a double edge sword, if you add them you have less wall space, but you have more natural light.

197102197103197104197105

[Skuzzy]

I'll spec the slab for a lift. Based on what I see from BENDPAK, I'll need a minimum of 4.25" 3000 PSI for pretty much any 4-post lift that I would consider.

Be sure to check the forms before they pour the concrete. Lots of 20 amp outlets all high enough to put work benches under them. If you are doing an upright compressor, be sure to plan for a network of outlets. Putting that compressor outside, or in a closet, is an excellent idea. I wish I had done that when I built my garage.
You can never have too many lights. You will appreciate it when you lose that 10mm socket.

[narly1]

I love spending other people's money LOL. If you can spare the space in the washroom consider adding a shower stall to minimize tracking dirt and odour into the house. Ditch the vanity sink and just do a deep sink/laundry tub set-up just outside of the washroom. You can then wash your hands as well as paint brushes, etc. all in the one spot.

Earl

[narly1]

Also for the washroom walls/ceiling consider cladding the space with FRP panels like this stuff: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Glasliner-4-ft-x-8-ft-Gray-090-in-Fiberglass-Reinforced-Wall-Panel-665041/202085623

Add a floor drain and waterproof electrical and you could pressure wash the whole room to clean it LOL.

Earl

[cob427sc]

Most states but probably not all have outlawed floor drains because of what accidentally (or intentionally) ends up getting sent down the drain, like oil, antifreeze, brake fluid, etc., none of which are good to have in your septic/sewer or ground water. Funny thing is building codes won't allow for floor drains but many require the slab be pitched out the door. Guess they expect any spills will be cleaned up before they go out the door.

[Alan_C]

Since your car is done...wet bar, pool table, big screen TV, sofa, popcorn maker.

What, no beer frig?

[RJD]

What, no beer frig?

Standard equipment - didn't think it needed mentioning.

[smithtlw]

As many of you know, I'm moving to Missouri in a couple of weeks. I now have the opportunity to design and build another shop. Here is an initial design idea I've drafted up:

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=197061&d=1710875720

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=197062&d=1710875720

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=197063&d=1710875720

As drawn, the building is 50' wide x 30' deep with an additional 20' x 12' workshop and bathroom area. The center door on the front is 16' x 10' and the three smaller doors are 10' x 9'. The ceiling is 12' to accommodate a lift and the left bay is a drive-through for my tractor.

What would you all do differently? The size is constrained by the building envelope that I have, so I can't go bigger than the 1,740 square feet that I have with maybe some minor tweaks possible (a foot here or there).

Lots of good thoughts here - I'll echo the radiant heat suggestion especially with high ceilings. It is way more comfortable to work when floor is actually radiating heat to you instead of sucking the heat out of you. Can actually keep the air temperature lower and still be comfortable. I also used a small tankless hot water heater and has been going strong for 10+ years.

I am curious what software you used to design the above?

Todd

[Papa]

I am curious what software you used to design the above?

Todd

The software I'm using for the design is DreamPlan Home Design, which has a free trial version you can order and download from Amazon. It's very basic, but enough to get some decent visuals. The non-trial version is $40.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...1?ie=UTF8&th=1

[Jeff_J.]

I use my computer in the garage all the time I haven't installed the smart TV on a swivel mount yet. (if no one mentioned it already..) You'll need more seating for all the visitors you'll have to marvel at the garage!!

[bobl]

I'm sure you've taken this into consideration, but try to place your doors to get the best possible cross breeze and take that afternoon sun into account....I'm from Texas so my priorities are different. LOL. It gets plenty hot and humid in Missouri! One of the hottest days of my life was at an outdoor wedding in Joplin Mo. in August.

Bob

[JimLev]

3rd or 4th the radiant floor heating as well as mini-splits for AC/heat.
Maybe a good size I-beam so you can hang a winch on it for pulling engines or anything heavy.
I had 2 in my last house, they were very handy.

[UpNorth]

Heated floor, a blessing while building my Daytona.
Electrical outlet on the ceiling, useful…once in a while.
I don’t know but after getting a heated floor one must be careful not drilling into heating mesh or tubular if liquid heated.Just asking…

Francois

[MC Builders]

Transom windows over garage door add some natural light when the doors are closed and I am all for radiant heat, I have 2 "garages" with radiant and there is nothing better in may opinion and for $75/month for 1400sq feet with 18 ft high celings in MA at 60 degrees I don't complain

[Papa]

Update: Trying to find a builder that could do the shop this year at a price that made sense put me on a completely different path. Here is what we ended up going with!

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=200103&d=1717084032

The building will go up this summer (August timeframe).

[JimStone]

I like it! Tall ceilings and a covered porch to put your BBQ

[Papa]

I like it! Tall ceilings and a covered porch to put your BBQ

Yep! I did 14' ceilings with high-lift garage door tracks and header-mount openers. The doors will line up with my existing driveway for a nice straight-in entry. The concrete will be 5" thick to easily accommodate a lift. I still need to work out the electrical details, but plan to go with surface mount wiring in conduit. The walls will be finished from the floor to a height of 8' in OSB and then metal the last six feet. The ceiling will be metal and the entire building will be fully insulated, including the doors.

[Skuzzy]

Might want to have piers poured where the lift pads will sit. When I built my garage, I specified the lift and the weight and the concrete engineer drew in 4' piers under the pads with 3/4" cross-tied rebar. My soil also has a lot of clay in it, and that was a factor as well. 11 years later and not a single hair line crack anywhere on the slab.

Just a thought.

[Windsor]

My soil also has a lot of clay in it...

That's the "gift that keeps on giving" here in North Texas.

[Wizbangdoodle]

All of these suggestions are excellent. If you can swing it, do them all.

As for me, my shop has 15' ceilings and those round LED lights mentioned earlier in the thread. It's like daylight in here. I have 3 bays with doors on 2 of them. Big bay has 14' high doors and small bay has 10' high doors. The doors are at each end, so you can drive straight through the garage. Snagged a 2 post lift from a friend of a friend for dirt cheap. It's a total of 2200sqf. The rest of the house has radiant floor heat, but I did not put it in the garage. Don't really regret it, but might do it if I had to do it over again. Radiant floor heat is the bomb. Absolutely love it. I did install a wood stove in the corner near my computer, so it's nice and comfy in the winter. Even when it's very cold out, that little stove will keep it about 65 inside. I love my shop.

https://barnpros.com/structures/coach-house/coach-house-56/

This is what we built with several modifications.

[Winchester67]

And outlets every six feet. Never enough outlets. And run 220 volt even if you don't weld now. Easier to have it at the ready. Steve McQueen Days in Slater MO this Saturday. You going? McQueen spent some of his troubled childhood in Slater with relatives, so it is a small town claim to fame. Usually a good car show. I will take the Cobra or the Corvette. 200624200625

[Winchester67]

Computers fight me at every turn. 200626

[Winchester67]

I give up. You get the idea anyway.

[Papa]

And outlets every six feet. Never enough outlets. And run 220 volt even if you don't weld now. Easier to have it at the ready. Steve McQueen Days in Slater MO this Saturday. You going? McQueen spent some of his troubled childhood in Slater with relatives, so it is a small town claim to fame. Usually a good car show. I will take the Cobra or the Corvette. 200624200625

Can't make it Saturday, but sounds like fun. I agree on the electrical. I've already discussed doing 200amp service with outlets just above workbench level with 20amp circuits throughout. I'll need 220 for multiple things... compressor, A/C, lift, and possibly more.

[Winchester67]

Summer just started, I am sure we will run into each other sooner or later. Welcome to the slow lane life in Missouri!

[gbranham]

Are you going to put in a 2-post or 4-post lift? Definitely use reinforced piers or thicker slab for a 2-post. 5" is plenty for a 4-post.

[Papa]

Are you going to put in a 2-post or 4-post lift? Definitely use reinforced piers or thicker slab for a 2-post. 5" is plenty for a 4-post.

I'm going to do a 4-post this round and I may not bolt it down and use casters for mobility.

[Papa]

Progress on the new shop!

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=202413&d=1722636187

[Papa]

Another update...

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=202614&d=1722984762

[Papa]

This thing is going up fast!

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=202624&d=1723025507

[Skuzzy]

Looks good. What kind of floor is it going to have?

[Papa]

Looks good. What kind of floor is it going to have?

The floor will be a 5" concrete slab over a rock base. The interior will be fully insulated with OSB sheeting on the lower 8' and metal on the upper 6' of the walls and ceiling.

[Papa]

I'm currently researching air compressors, mini-splits, and four-post lift options. Please offer up any recommendations. I'm leaning heavily towards keeping the lift movable on castors vs. bolting it down.

[JimLev]

I’ve got Carrier split airs (AC and heat) in the house and in the garage.
Not sure what size your garage is or the summer heat load.
Might be a good idea for the garage AC compressor to be capable of connection more than one inside unit to it, just in case you later find out that you need more cooling/heating.

[Papa]

I’ve got Carrier split airs (AC and heat) in the house and in the garage.
Not sure what size your garage is or the summer heat load.
Might be a good idea for the garage AC compressor to be capable of connection more than one inside unit to it, just in case you later find out that you need more cooling/heating.

The building is 30x40x14 interior volume (16,800 cubic feet). I'm being told that I will need ~36,000BTU for the mini-split. I like having multiple inside units (zones) to help distribute the heating/cooling across the entire building.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Dave, I said before and will say again I really, REALLY recommend that you look into radiant floor heating. I learned with my shop (12 foot ceilings) that with a forced air heating system the warm air ends up at the top, even with ceiling fans. In the winter when working at ground level you'll be cool, go up a 6 foot stepladder and you'll be hot.

Jeff

[Papa]

Dave, I said before and will say again I really, REALLY recommend that you look into radiant floor heating. I learned with my shop (12 foot ceilings) that with a forced air heating system the warm air ends up at the top, even with ceiling fans. In the winter when working at ground level you'll be cool, go up a 6 foot stepladder and you'll be hot.

Jeff

Jeff,

I hear you, but the cost/benefit analysis tells me that I can save the money and use it in other areas. I won't be using the shop if it's too cold to work in and my budget is already pushed way over what the wife is happy with. :p

Dave

[JimLev]

Jeff does make a good point. We have radiant heated floors in the house.
It will take a LONG time for a 5” slab to heat up to start radiating heat. To be effective you’d have to keep the slab somewhat warm all winter.

When I use the heat from the mini-splits it doesn’t take too long before the rooms are warm.
My electrical costs for using the mini-splits heating is much less than the costs of using its AC.
Both radiating heating and mini-splits would be nice.
Have you checked into using insulation under the slab?

[gbranham]

FWIW, I put a Mr Cool MiniSplit in my 30x30 shop, and it's awesome! I insulated my walls and ceiling, and sheetrocked the walls the year prior to installing the minisplit. It was still too hot in the summer, and way to cold in the winter....my car care products would freeze solid in really cold weather. I bought the minisplit on Amazon (a 36k BTU unit) for $2800. I bought the kit that comes with pre-charged lines, so I didn't need a HVAC tech to install it. My dad and I installed it in a weekend. Super simple installation, and it keeps the shop very comfortable year-round. Something to think about. You're 192 miles from me if you want to come check out my setup; happy to host you!

Oh, and I've had 4 post lifts with casters...I would never get under one unless it was bolted to the floor. I understand the lift doesn't rest on the casters when in use. In my experience, the posts sway a bit when not anchored, and it made me too nervous when wrenching on something that weighed a ton or two, suspended above my head. I moved my lift around from time to time, but when in use, I bolted it down with 16 Redheads in 16 holes I'd drilled in the floor. Rock solid, and it only took a few minutes to remove the Redheads if I wanted to move the lift.

For compressors, you might check out the 'Quiet Tech' line of compressors at Lowe's (Kobalt). I bought a 26 gallon Kobalt Quiet Tech 4 or 5 years ago, and it's been great. It's truly remarkable how quiet it is compared to some of the others I've had of the same size. It's done everything I've asked it to do while building my car. Mine isn't an oil-less unit. It's the traditional larger motor with the belt-driven flywheel.


Greg

https://www.amazon.com/MrCool-Ductless-Split-System-Generation/dp/B0B39KSVV9/ref=sr_1_3?crid=UPML6TSYPBS9&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.RRHz_GFbTU-xH-L_wVnfIiNsejz0bEt5YB-hqYwZzrD6TKumSkFqVByIxJrjO_ovSDJ_VgByulGHHhKLbtmRj 9fJbNcH6xlOIXoGRxziT3KXULeIQdMKO788l0oyQ4fOSMgm8M4 dvev-Pxti87cok7k1gtoiwnLyhObQro6kK_nAKUgOZujlQP3vBrudci csjtE49NNqRnXC8nXj_yCrqbeo8dfRTkqK4dP5qy27hpY.yjEV yNk8ggiVJZubm7T7opnzjSdZC4jm0dfCAGxVmag&dib_tag=se&keywords=mr+cool+36k&qid=1723054889&sprefix=mr+cool+36k%2Caps%2C120&sr=8-3

[cob427sc]

I've had both 2 and 4 post lifts and like most tools there are benefits and issues with both. With a Cobra and a 2 post lift you probably won't be able to swing the arms under the car without lifting the car slightly first. I used a couple of short ramps lifting the front of the car a couple of inches, then swinging the arms underneath. with the 4 post I now have, I had to make longer approach ramps or the car frame and exhaust hit the lift cross bar. This happens with any low car and I ended up making 2, 6' long wood ramps which I use on the lift and also on my car trailer which had the same problem. Be careful on the clear height underneath the lift when purchasing, not the lift height! My current 4 post lift is advertised as 6'-8" lift height and I wrongly assumed the entire lift would be the high. With my 6'-2" head, now full of multiple scars, bumps and contusions I won't make that error again.

[Papa]

I've had both 2 and 4 post lifts and like most tools there are benefits and issues with both. With a Cobra and a 2 post lift you probably won't be able to swing the arms under the car without lifting the car slightly first. I used a couple of short ramps lifting the front of the car a couple of inches, then swinging the arms underneath. with the 4 post I now have, I had to make longer approach ramps or the car frame and exhaust hit the lift cross bar. This happens with any low car and I ended up making 2, 6' long wood ramps which I use on the lift and also on my car trailer which had the same problem. Be careful on the clear height underneath the lift when purchasing, not the lift height! My current 4 post lift is advertised as 6'-8" lift height and I wrongly assumed the entire lift would be the high. With my 6'-2" head, now full of multiple scars, bumps and contusions I won't make that error again.

I had a two-post before and it was great once you get the car on it. It was a PITA to get the car in the right position, which is what I'm primarily looking to avoid with the 4-post. I had tape marks on the floor to help me position the car on a set of four low ramps that would then allow me to swing the arms under the car. Extending the ramps to reduce the approach angle for the four-post doesn't hurt my head at all. The stability of the lift when not bolted down is a concern that I will pay close attention to.

[Nigel Allen]

Installed my air compressor in a vented, but silenced wooden enclosure external to the shed. A lot more pleasant without the noise. I also wired it to a local illuminated switch, by my light switches to remind me to shut it off at end of day

[Skuzzy]

I'm currently researching air compressors, mini-splits, and four-post lift options. Please offer up any recommendations. I'm leaning heavily towards keeping the lift movable on castors vs. bolting it down.

I have a 60 gallon upright Rolair I am happy with. My specific requirement called for a compressor with a easy start-up so the surge would not trip my breaker. I only have 100A (city code restriction) electrical service to my garage. The compressor, mini-split A/C, and the Hobart welding machine can eat through that pretty quickly. I did build a cover for it so as to get the noise levels down and with an exhaust fan to keep the compressor cool when running. I also plumbed the three walls with multiple access points to connect hoses.

I had castors on my 4 post lift. I took them off as they were always in the way (they protrude out from the post a pretty good ways). As it turned out, once my garage was setup, there was no place to move the lift. You have more room, so that may not be an issue. I have not bolted it down. I put witness marks on the floor to mark where the posts settled in and the posts have not moved in 12 years of use. I use it a lot. I have not experienced any stability issues, but then I never work on the car with the lift higher than 4 feet. When I need to be under a car, I use a roll-around stool to sit on.

[Papa]

I have a 60 gallon upright Rolair I am happy with. My specific requirement called for a compressor with a easy start-up so the surge would not trip my breaker. I only have 100A (city code restriction) electrical service to my garage. The compressor, mini-split A/C, and the Hobart welding machine can eat through that pretty quickly. I did build a cover for it so as to get the noise levels down and with an exhaust fan to keep the compressor cool when running. I also plumbed the three walls with multiple access points to connect hoses.

I had castors on my 4 post lift. I took them off as they were always in the way (they protrude out from the post a pretty good ways). As it turned out, once my garage was setup, there was no place to move the lift. You have more room, so that may not be an issue. I have not bolted it down. I put witness marks on the floor to mark where the posts settled in and the posts have not moved in 12 years of use. I use it a lot. I have not experienced any stability issues, but then I never work on the car with the lift higher than 4 feet. When I need to be under a car, I use a roll-around stool to sit on.

Thanks for the info. I'm looking at 60 gallon compressors, but I'm torn on what I really need. I had a stationary 80 gallon in my old shop, and it was great but way overkill for what I needed. I'm actually leaning more toward a portable compressor this time around (at least to start), which may limit me to 40 gallons, but could run on 110V. I will be plumbing the shop with this RAPIDAIR system that I really like: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07F785WJ4/ref=ox_sc_saved_title_2?smid=A12QW01VCSLB0K&psc=1

[Skuzzy]

I used the Rapidair system to plumb my garage. I used 3/4" as well. The only reason I went with the 60 gallon was the requirement I had to be able to paint with it. It really stinks when you run out of air in the middle of a shoot. I have a water separator immediately after the compressor with a 10 micron high volumn particle filter on the paint gun outlet.

By the way, if you are going to install your 4 post lift, I would be happy to offer some tips (I know you probably do not need them). I installed my 4 post lift by my self. The Wife did help with the unloading off the truck. That way I appeased her showing her how much money I could save. :)

[JimLev]

I bought a 60 gal vertical 2 stage 175 PSI compressor (11CFM @ 90PSI) from Lowes, I think it’s actually made by Campbell Hausfeld.
Like Skuzzy I didn’t want to run out of air while painting or sandblasting.
My previous compressor was a single stage oil less 30 gal that couldn’t supply enough CFM.

Another guy I know on a different forum bought this compressor, he uses it for painting and sandblasting.
It has two 2HP motors each powering 2 cylinders. It’s pretty quiet too. They also have smaller units too.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0173I3CXI/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&th=1

https://www.amazon.com/stores/CaliforniaAirTools/page/D0521ACC-D035-4685-895B-DC355339BCA6?ref_=ast_bln&store_ref=bl_ast_dp_brandLogo_sto

[Skuzzy]

I got the Rolair model V5160PT03X (https://www.rolair.com/air-compressors/stationary-electric-air-compressors/5-hp-light-industrial). It has handled everything I can throw at it.

[460.465USMC]

Oh, and I've had 4 post lifts with casters...I would never get under one unless it was bolted to the floor. I understand the lift doesn't rest on the casters when in use. In my experience, the posts sway a bit when not anchored, and it made me too nervous when wrenching on something that weighed a ton or two, suspended above my head. I moved my lift around from time to time, but when in use, I bolted it down with 16 Redheads in 16 holes I'd drilled in the floor. Rock solid, and it only took a few minutes to remove the Redheads if I wanted to move the lift.

Greg

Dave, congrats on your new shop. Looks like it will be amazing.

I'm very late into this conversation, but I second Greg's comments above about a 4-post being anchored to the floor. I've owned the Bendpak HD-9 since 2016, and have moved it to two different houses since then. Yes, Bendpak says it doesn't need to be anchored to the floor, but the pucker factor when you're standing underneath a vehicle (even a light Cobra) that's several feet in the air says otherwise. I've done it both ways with mine, and there's no doubt I prefer to have it anchored. I also have Bendpak's casters--allowed it to be easily moved it last October via flat bed tow truck.

I inherited a metal pole-style building in our move last October. Spent the winter insulating it. I used OSB for my walls (third garage I've done that), and still love it. Definitely not as pretty to look at compared to sheet rock, but pretty enough for me. I had a Mitsubishi 24K BTU mini-split heat pump installed (24'x30' building with 12' walls). Boy, those are efficient. Gets plenty cold here in Spokane, and hot in the summer--no humidity, thankfully. I keep the temp at 80 in the summer, and it doesn't use much energy. Lastly, I installed a couple six foot ceiling fans that can reverse direction. Handy for winter v. summer air movement. They really make a difference in comfort.

Enjoy your new shop! I look forward to seeing the finished pictures.

[Papa]

Dave, congrats on your new shop. Looks like it will be amazing.

I'm very late into this conversation, but I second Greg's comments above about a 4-post being anchored to the floor. I've owned the Bendpak HD-9 since 2016, and have moved it to two different houses since then. Yes, Bendpak says it doesn't need to be anchored to the floor, but the pucker factor when you're standing underneath a vehicle (even a light Cobra) that's several feet in the air says otherwise. I've done it both ways with mine, and there's no doubt I prefer to have it anchored. I also have Bendpak's casters--allowed it to be easily moved it last October via flat bed tow truck.

I inherited a metal pole-style building in our move last October. Spent the winter insulating it. I used OSB for my walls (third garage I've done that), and still love it. Definitely not as pretty to look at compared to sheet rock, but pretty enough for me. I had a Mitsubishi 24K BTU mini-split heat pump installed (24'x30' building with 12' walls). Boy, those are efficient. Gets plenty cold here in Spokane, and hot in the summer--no humidity, thankfully. I keep the temp at 80 in the summer, and it doesn't use much energy. Lastly, I installed a couple six foot ceiling fans that can reverse direction. Handy for winter v. summer air movement. They really make a difference in comfort.

Enjoy your new shop! I look forward to seeing the finished pictures.

Chris,

It's good to hear from you and I hope you're getting lots of miles on your car. The shell of my building is done except for a few bits of trim that they still need to put on. Next will be the concrete guy to get the grade set and then do the floor. My electrician was over today to plan out his attack, but needs to discuss it with the building guys before he can get moving. I'm also doing OSB on the inside walls up to the 8' height, then metal above that to the ceiling.

Dave

[JimLev]

Are you using wire mesh or fiberglass strands in the concrete?

[Papa]

Are you using wire mesh or fiberglass strands in the concrete?

The concrete will have 1/2" rebar 2' on center.

[Papa]

Almost finished with the new shop ... lots of delays along the way due to weather and availability of contractors.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=205070&d=1728397412

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=205069&d=1728397412

[Higgybulin]

Looks great Dave!! I am sure you cant wait to fill it up!
Higgy

[gbranham]

Honest question...many of my neighbors have these sheet metal shops as well, and most of them have them built on a gravel slab, THEN have the concrete poured. Why? Wouldn't it be easier to pour a concrete slab, then anchor the structure to it? Maybe I don't understand the process.

Greg

[JimLev]

^_I was wondering the same thing.

[PMD24]

Wow, that's a really nice building! Just wrapping up a shop build. Worked on it for 2 years. Some things that come to mind from that project are below. Might be too late, but decided to send anyway. Sitting indoors with a bad case of the flu and bored stiff. Sorry about the length but I kept thinking of stuff from the past 2 years.
> Take a look at Trusscore for your walls. I knew I didn't want drywall (just not durable) and searched for a very long time before choosing Trusscore. It's a 1/2" thick corrugated PVC panel, 16" wide, and various lengths up to 16ft. (I did mine vertical) Comes in white and light grey. I can send you some photos if you like. I also wrote dimensions from corners or slabs on all studs, furring, and blocking. Then took photos. Filed photos in both print and electronic form. Then when I want to hang something I pull out that info to hit something solid. Has worked well so far.
> Radiant slab. I'm a mechanical engineer with a background in HVAC design and building construction. Have designed tons of HVAC systems. You will never be sorry for installing a radiant floor. Amazing comfort, stable temperatures, and efficient.
> Look at metal ceiling liner instead of drywall. Glad I made that choice as well. Looks great and it looks more like a nicely finished shop ceiling versus the inside of my house. Easy to hang too.
> On one wall I hung flooring boards horizontally tongue nailed to OSB... just for an accent wall. Looks great. Glad I did something different there.
> Floor drain. You can check local codes but do one if you can. Building inspector approved mine.
> Utility sink. A must for stuff you don't want in the bathroom sink.
> I decided against spray foam. Foam is an awesome product especially for reno work and insulating areas that are not easily done with other products. Killer for air sealing challenging areas too, so if you have some odd shapes in your structure, you could use it there. I'd recommend dense pack cellulose. Same stuff that they blow into attics, but it's densely packed into walls using either a wet or dry method. Better r-value for the unit dollar as well. I used dry in the shop, wet in my home. Prefer wet but their machine was down when I did the shop.
> Make all outlets 20A, all lighting 15amp. 12ga for outlets, 14 for lighting. yellow wire for 12, white for 14. Easy to keep track of during and after installation.
> If you want to tinker with software for your lighting there's great free stuff out there. You upload your layout, pick a fixture (like a good commercial LED), choose a lumen/sf level, and the software will produce a lighting layout and lumen map (looks like a topo map) for the specific fixture. Very cool. And the map shows you lumen levels so you can add, change, or delete general lighting, or even add task lighting, like at a work bench or desk, and it maps that.
> Minisplit is a great choice for AC but plan ahead for the location of the indoor units and where you want the outdoor unit and the somewhat ugly thing that will run up the exterior wall. There's also a physical limit on how far the refrigerant lines can run. Might have to use more than one. Just need to plan for it. Like Jeff, I too prefer no AC and it's been fine so far. A few hot days I ran a fan which was fine. If you want to do both heating and cooling with forced air you would likely want a cold climate air source heat pump. Take a look at the Water Furnace website.
> Things I'd do different or add: 1) less grit in the floor coating. It still wouldn't be slippery when wet and would be easier to sweep and clean up spills (it shreds up paper towels) 2) Run air lines in the wall (Type L copper) to a few key spots around the shop, back to where my compressor is. 3)Install a wall penetration and exterior vent cap for a heat recovery ventilator. My building is so tight I'm finding that I need some fresh air during the winter. The code will likely require one for your house but not for your shop because it's not "living" space. It's just a box with two fans and some heat exchange medium. It brings in fresh air, pumps out stale indoor air, and exchanges the heat in the indoor air to the cooler fresh air coming in. I'll be adding one. 4) Vents through the wall to hook exhaust to.

I have good records on everything and happy to share info or photos.

[PMD24]

Just saw the latest post with your progress, so double sorry for my lengthy reply. Hopefully some of it will still be useful. Enjoy! It looks great!

[Papa]

Wow, that's a really nice building! Just wrapping up a shop build. Worked on it for 2 years. Some things that come to mind from that project are below. Might be too late, but decided to send anyway. Sitting indoors with a bad case of the flu and bored stiff. Sorry about the length but I kept thinking of stuff from the past 2 years.
> Take a look at Trusscore for your walls. I knew I didn't want drywall (just not durable) and searched for a very long time before choosing Trusscore. It's a 1/2" thick corrugated PVC panel, 16" wide, and various lengths up to 16ft. (I did mine vertical) Comes in white and light grey. I can send you some photos if you like. I also wrote dimensions from corners or slabs on all studs, furring, and blocking. Then took photos. Filed photos in both print and electronic form. Then when I want to hang something I pull out that info to hit something solid. Has worked well so far.
I used OSB, which is what Morton offers. It's 7/16" thick and provides endless places to hang or attach things to the wall. The OSB goes up to 8' and then they used perforated steel the rest of the way up. I got Morton's "Performer" insulation package, so it may be different if you pick different options.
> Radiant slab. I'm a mechanical engineer with a background in HVAC design and building construction. Have designed tons of HVAC systems. You will never be sorry for installing a radiant floor. Amazing comfort, stable temperatures, and efficient.
Many people recommended this, but I didn't go that route.
> Look at metal ceiling liner instead of drywall. Glad I made that choice as well. Looks great and it looks more like a nicely finished shop ceiling versus the inside of my house. Easy to hang too.
Ceiling is metal.
> On one wall I hung flooring boards horizontally tongue nailed to OSB... just for an accent wall. Looks great. Glad I did something different there.
> Floor drain. You can check local codes but do one if you can. Building inspector approved mine.
> Utility sink. A must for stuff you don't want in the bathroom sink.
No easy way to run water to this building based on distance to the water meter and main tap.
> I decided against spray foam. Foam is an awesome product especially for reno work and insulating areas that are not easily done with other products. Killer for air sealing challenging areas too, so if you have some odd shapes in your structure, you could use it there. I'd recommend dense pack cellulose. Same stuff that they blow into attics, but it's densely packed into walls using either a wet or dry method. Better r-value for the unit dollar as well. I used dry in the shop, wet in my home. Prefer wet but their machine was down when I did the shop.
> Make all outlets 20A, all lighting 15amp. 12ga for outlets, 14 for lighting. yellow wire for 12, white for 14. Easy to keep track of during and after installation.
All outlets are 20amp, ran 4-wire 220v for the mini-split just in case I need a neutral wire in the future.
> If you want to tinker with software for your lighting there's great free stuff out there. You upload your layout, pick a fixture (like a good commercial LED), choose a lumen/sf level, and the software will produce a lighting layout and lumen map (looks like a topo map) for the specific fixture. Very cool. And the map shows you lumen levels so you can add, change, or delete general lighting, or even add task lighting, like at a work bench or desk, and it maps that.
> Minisplit is a great choice for AC but plan ahead for the location of the indoor units and where you want the outdoor unit and the somewhat ugly thing that will run up the exterior wall. There's also a physical limit on how far the refrigerant lines can run. Might have to use more than one. Just need to plan for it. Like Jeff, I too prefer no AC and it's been fine so far. A few hot days I ran a fan which was fine. If you want to do both heating and cooling with forced air you would likely want a cold climate air source heat pump. Take a look at the Water Furnace website.
Mini-split is planned to go on the rear wall. Nothing visible from the house.
> Things I'd do different or add: 1) less grit in the floor coating. It still wouldn't be slippery when wet and would be easier to sweep and clean up spills (it shreds up paper towels) 2) Run air lines in the wall (Type L copper) to a few key spots around the shop, back to where my compressor is. 3)Install a wall penetration and exterior vent cap for a heat recovery ventilator. My building is so tight I'm finding that I need some fresh air during the winter. The code will likely require one for your house but not for your shop because it's not "living" space. It's just a box with two fans and some heat exchange medium. It brings in fresh air, pumps out stale indoor air, and exchanges the heat in the indoor air to the cooler fresh air coming in. I'll be adding one. 4) Vents through the wall to hook exhaust to.

I have good records on everything and happy to share info or photos.


See my responses above. Thanks for the input.

[Papa]

Honest question...many of my neighbors have these sheet metal shops as well, and most of them have them built on a gravel slab, THEN have the concrete poured. Why? Wouldn't it be easier to pour a concrete slab, then anchor the structure to it? Maybe I don't understand the process.

Greg


^_I was wondering the same thing.

https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2017/10/can-build-pole-barn-concrete-slab/

[Papa]

I got the 96" fan and my 6 x 35,000 lumen LED lights installed this weekend.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=205239&d=1728847139

[Papa]

First day of the new year and the first automotive task completed in the new shop! The wife's car was due for an oil change. The lighting is perfect, the mini-split is working well to keep the space warm, so now I just need to pull the trigger on a lift.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=208320&d=1735760435

[Higgybulin]

Looks good Dave! Happy New Year!
Higgy

[gbranham]

Looks a little cramped in there, big guy! :)

Don't know if you're interested in a 2 post or a 4 post lift at this point (I know you were leaning 4 post), but I bought a 4 post Direct Lift Pro Park 7 years ago from derekweaver.com. I think it was around $2800 shipped. My neighbor helped me assemble it, with the help of my engine hoist for the 600lb driver's side ramp (it has the hydraulic ram under it). I fastened it to the floor with 4 redheads in each post foot. It was rock solid, and great for maintenance and double-stacking cars to get 3 cars in a 2 car garage. I've been thinking about buying one for my shop, as I left the lift with my house when I sold it in 2013.

Greg

208321208322208323208324208325

[Papa]

Looks a little cramped in there, big guy! :)

Don't know if you're interested in a 2 post or a 4 post lift at this point (I know you were leaning 4 post), but I bought a 4 post Direct Lift Pro Park 7 years ago from derekweaver.com. I think it was around $2800 shipped. My neighbor helped me assemble it, with the help of my engine hoist for the 600lb driver's side ramp (it has the hydraulic ram under it). I fastened it to the floor with 4 redheads in each post foot. It was rock solid, and great for maintenance and double-stacking cars to get 3 cars in a 2 car garage. I've been thinking about buying one for my shop, as I left the lift with my house when I sold it in 2013.

Greg

208321208322208323208324208325

Thanks for the info. I'm actually looking at a 4-post from The Lift Superstore. They have pretty nice 8,000 or 9,000 lb. ALI certified lifts that I can get from them with a lot of the accessories others charge extra for. Theirs comes with a steel jacking tray, castors, 3 steel drip trays, and steel ramps. They also offer 49" aluminum ramps to help with low-profile cars and a couple of different trolly scissor jack options. You can get either 110v or 220v Bucher pumps and I'm thinking of going with 110v so that I can keep the lift portable with plenty of 110v outlets inside and out on my building.

[Ford & Jeep Fan]

I have a idea for any shop that would supply almost free heating, compressed air and electric (might work better in a rural area).

First you would need a 10 X 10 room Insulated heavily for sound have large Vents(to the outside) grates.

What you need for inside is a All Mechanical DT360 of DT466international engine (like you find in a 1990s school bus)

The engine would only need to be run at about 10% throttle say 1200 rpm. Most of these already have a gear driven air compressor.

You can guess where the heat for the shop AND heat for the water heater comes from. the radiator is inside the shop With a separate radiator and set of valves outside the shop for summer operation. For extra Thermal efficiency you could route return coolant back to the engine up thought engine exhaust heated heat exchanger first before going back to the engine.
Of course for the electric You just mount a 10K-30K watt generator set to the back of engine.

Best part is these engine will run on Used Motor Oil

You would Not need the turbo or intercooler.

[Papa]

The new lift is in the shop:

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=210719&d=1740327332

[gbranham]

Very nice! I'm contemplating getting one, as well. I miss my old one.

[PMD24]

Great shop and nice lift!!

But there's something missing... a new spaceframe and a bunch of boxes.

[Papa]

Great shop and nice lift!!

But there's something missing... a new spaceframe and a bunch of boxes.

I retire in a week. Once the dust settles I may be building a Daytona Coupe. I need some time to convince my wife that I need a project to get me out of the house for a while first.

[burchfieldb]

That looks really nice! I am jealous of the amount of room you have. A 30th anniversary coupe would look really nice in there.

[RJD]

That's a huge shop! What are you compensating for? Just kidding...it's beautiful. And congrats on your upcoming retirement!

[PMD24]

Congrats on your retirement. I finally did it last May. At 72 yrs I figured it was time. Building my new heated shop prior to retiring and then ordering the MK4 kit were two of the best decisions I've ever made. I am really enjoying this build project, in my warm spacious shop. In fact, I love to ski and I'm finding that I'm skipping ski days to work on my car!

Happy Retirement,

Pat

[jcarcustom]

Awesome drawing and project! What software do you use? I remember that in my design days I used Autocad, but I know that nowadays there is better software for 3D. Today I work with automotive drawings, but old school, with markers and airbrush!

210891

[Papa]

Awesome drawing and project! What software do you use? I remember that in my design days I used Autocad, but I know that nowadays there is better software for 3D. Today I work with automotive drawings, but old school, with markers and airbrush!

210891

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?48608-Time-to-Design-a-New-Shop&p=551433&viewfull=1#post551433

It was a free trial ...