Need help 302/351 power steering issues

[Rebostar]

Well I changed my mind and will be installing a power steering rack. I spent last night researching the issue. No need to beat a dead horse, I'm sold.
Unintended consequences!. Adding the power steering means a pump. I installed the CVF kit in my 47 Merc coupe. I know the Saginaw Pump will not clear the steering shaft so I went with the manual rack. Then I learn about the caster issue and the need to go with power steering. Last night I also found the mods that will make the Saginaw pump work. 351C bracket or some re-drilling of the 351W bracket mounting holes. Score!.......So, back to the 47 Merc. The pump is a half inch from the mechanical fuel pump and will prevent the aforementioned modifications. Bummer! So, I now need to figure out how to get fuel to the carb if I remove the mechanical pump.

I had planned on a Holly mechanical pump with a Holly electric 15 PSI flow through back up pump. Also to be used as a "prime" pump.

Can anyone recommend a reliable constant flow 5 to 15 psi electric pump? It will have to run 100% of the time. I can block off the fuel pump port, modify and install the CVF Saginaw pump & bracket, install the new power rack, but I'm concerned about fuel delivery. I do not want to install a fuel injection 55 psi pump only to regulate it down to 7 psi for the carb.

I know this issue has probably been delt with but my research did not include a new fuel delivery system to fix a manual steering rack caster problem.

Thanks in advance
Rebostar

[Jeff Kleiner]

Don’t complicate things unnecessarily…just use a Ford pump. You’ll have a bunch of off the shelf options for bracket Ry, it fits and you won’t have to reduce the pressure to be compatible with the rack like you have to do with a Saginaw. Easy Peary!

Jeff

[Rebostar]

Jeff
Thanks for the input.
Last night when I found the mods to make the CVF Saginaw sytem work, several posters commented that the Ford pump defintatly would NOT clear the steering rack. CVF offers the Ford pump as an option, which I would get if It would fit using their pullies and brackets. Do you know of anyone who has installed the CVF V belt system using the Ford pump?

Rebostar

[Norm B]

I installed the Ford pump using most of CVF v-belt system. I modified the Mustang pump bracket and made a small mounting plate to attach it to the water pump and timing cover. Not real fancy but it works great. The pump pressure was reduced using the spring cut method. Here’s an old picture taken during the build and long before the Sniper upgrade.

HTH

Norm

[CraigS]

Admittedly mine was a 351 so had the taller block. But I used a pump from a 99 Explorer.
195577
This part # is for a pump needing a remote reservoir. The pic on the label says there is a contained reservoir version but I never used one. I used a mount from Breeze. It is a nice aluminum 1/4" plate. Spacers and bolts attach it to the front of the head and more bolts and spacers attach the pump to the plate.
195578
It is a GM style pump. I cut the spring in the pressure relief valve to reduce pressure. My first attempt reduced it too much so I used a few common washers to shim it back until I got a pressure I liked. BTW PS fluid from a Honda dealer is much more resistant to overheating.

[Mike.Bray]

On my 351W I used this pump (https://www.cvfracing.com/gm-type-ii-power-steering-pump/) with a remote reservoir. And then installed this pressure reducing valve (https://www.cvfracing.com/saginaw-p-series-pressure-reducing-valve-800-psi/). So far it's worked perfect.

https://www.imagecoast.com/images/MichaelBray1/20220909160510medium.jpg

https://www.imagecoast.com/images/MichaelBray1/20220909160452medium.jpg

https://www.imagecoast.com/images/MichaelBray1/20220904182337medium.jpg

[Rebostar]

Hey guys, thanks for posting the power steering pump on the Windsors. I think the cleanest way to get this power rack installed is to ask CVF to accept a partial return of the Alt only pulley and bracket set up, and send me their Ford Pump and bracket along with the double V belt crank and water pump pulleys. The Saginaw pump wont work, as I would have to delete the fuel pump. They have a good clean system and I want to keep the V belts for the nostalgic look....that and I'm just an "old" dude. I'll make it work. I will be keeping the manual fuel pump and find a way to make it work.

Mostly I'm more than a little bit anoyed with FFR. I ordered the kit on Jan 15 and paid for it on the 17th. I was told in very clear English that I would be recieving a confrence call to discuss in detail all the options I selected about 2 weeks before my kit completion date (Feb 24). A couple days later the wife wanted Chrome Roll Bars, so I called them to get credit for the FFR Gauges and Drive Shaft I would not be using and order the Chrome Roll Bars. Two weeks later I called and talked with a salesman to ask a couple of technical questions and ask about getting credit for other parts I did not need. We made no changes and they answered my tech questions. So last week I called again to add a few options I wanted but did not have the cash for when I placed the initial order. (small windfall came my way). Dureing that call the salesman made it a point to tell me "normaly they dont make changes to a kit after it was paid for" , but he would go out of his way to sell me the few options. I let him know that I had been waiting for that promised confrence call and that it never came. I was told my call to ask 2 tech questions was concidered "the call". That was BS! If I had waited till 14th of Feb to pay for my kit I could make any changes I wanted as long as they were "before payment was recieved". So I feel I was given the bums rush because I paid in full at the time of the order.

Had I known about the caster issue with the manual rack I would have ordered the power rack. If I had recieved the promised "confrence call" the steering options should have been discussed and if the facts were presented to me the way they were here on the forum I would have ordered the power rack. But I never recieved that call. So now I get to call CVF with hat in hand and ask to return parts and re-order other parts that I would have got the first time if provided with accurate information. In addition The FFR salesman will tell me its to close to my kit completion date to make any changes, at which point I will let him know that for 25 grand he can find a way to get it done.

So.... another $300 for a power rack, plus another $400 to CVF for the Ford pump and pulleys and I'll be all set. All money I would have spent anyway if I had just been informed of the caster issue by FFR. Many thanks to all the folks who posted about the manual vs power rack.

Reboster

[CraigS]

It is hard to know everything about FFRs when you place your order. Perhaps you should have asked about steering while placing your order. But I am glad you have worked it out. I feel your pain. I just ordered a ram stick for my desktop from the PC manufacturer. I thought since I am no PC expert it would be best to go to the OE stuff. It has 16xyz ram and I ordered a new 16 stick so I would have 32. Then I found out the 16 it has is actually two 8s in the two available slots. So I can't use my $130 stick until I order another 16 so I can install them in pairs. In looking around the web to learn more than I really want about ram, I also see that I could have gotten two 16s from the aftermarket for a little less than $100 vs the $260 I will have to spend for the OE sticks. Ugghh.

[Jeff Kleiner]

...Had I known about the caster issue with the manual rack I would have ordered the power rack...

I think you're using some incorrect terminology when you say "caster issue" making it sound like there is a design flaw or problem. There isn't. There are thousands of FFRs out running around with manual steering. There are thousands out running around with power steering. They're just different, each with positives and negatives which the builder weighed out when making their decision on which to use. It's all part of doing your research and homework beforehand. I've done roadsters with both...neither is wrong and neither has inherent "issues." But that doesn't mean that I don't still have a personal preference.

Good luck with your build!

Jeff

[Mike.Bray]

I don't remember receiving a pre-delivery call but I did receive a final invoice/packing list about two weeks before shipment. From this was the last chance to make changes which I actually did make a couple that they took care of.

I ordered my kit in 2022 and this has been my first and so far only time to deal with FFR. My impressions so far are:

Good company that supplies good value, quality vs. cost. As an engineer I appreciated the design of the Cobra and I would deal with them again, maybe his & her Cobras??

Small company that has and is dealing with growing pains. It appears most of the pandemic-related issues are behind them now.

They seem to have a lot of young and not so experienced people. Sometimes difficult to get answers. Dan seems to be the main technical guy but also seems overloaded. Example, I did the narrow pin drive front suspension and there was literally no one at FFR that was knowledgeable on it. I had to give them the part number which I found on an old brochure just to order it. And it literally took months to get a BOM. In the end this forum and Jeff Kleiner gave me the information required to set it up.

Dave Lindsey is the only guy that "got things done" for me.

FFR work very hard at keeping the price down which is good. IMO one of the ways they do this is spending as little as they can on purchased items. I found the quality on most of the purchased items from FFR to not be all that great and junked most of them. Reading through this forum I'm not the only one who has had issues with FFR supplied purchased items.

This forum is your real source of (mostly) good information. You should be reading through posts and build threads every day, it's just a treasure trove. I've been building cars for almost 50 years and even though my FFR Cobra is essentially a bolt together kit car I have learned so much about it from this forum. Like why power steering is well worth it. Like anything if you read it once take note. Read it twice, pay attention. Read it three or more times and it's probably good information.

Good luck with your project and hope this helps.

[Rebostar]

Mike & Jeff
Thanks for the input. I agree with you both. I did not mean to flame FFR They are a great organisaion that sell a great product. I think I was expressing a bit of fustration with a salesman. Had I not paid for the kit 2 days after I ordered it I could have made any changes up to the payment due date (2 weeks prior to completion date). As it was, the salesman gave me grief about changes I wanted a month before the completion date. The same salesman told me there would be a confrence call to finalize the kit and get payment. That is what never happened.

I have parused this forum since I ordered the kit. I did not know it even existed untill I ordered the kit. I ordered the options based on personal experiance and prefrences. Having a bit of dialog about the options with FFR would have been helpfull. Salesman just gave me the bums rush, like he needed to do something else.

On the steering issue. I had a very long and fruitfull call with Dan in tech support. There are no tracking or stability issues with the manual steering. Period. Just dificult to park a manual steering car at the local car shows! END OF ISSUE.