Future access to Master Cylinders

[rvanstory]

I have the three master cylinders, fuse panel and wiring in the Wilwood pedal box almost complete. But looking down the road, I can't see how one could ever replace the clutch master cylinder in the event it fails. Short of pulling body off and drilling out side panel pedal box rivets, I don't see how one could do this through the one access panel in the plans. Anyone have any experience or suggestions? I know it'll be fine for "a while" if properly tested before riveting on pedal box sides, but looking further down the line, I'm thinking about the difficulty of future repairs.

Any insights would be appreciated. I don't want to spend time on a solution to a problem if it doesn't exist.

[edwardb]

It's possible to service the M/C's through the access panel and from underneath. Including replacement. But I agree not fun. I've done it. I'd install the pedal box, M/C's, plumbing, etc. and get the systems bled as early as possible. Leave the driver's side pedal box off until putting the body on for the final time. Very good chance if something is wrong or defective, it would show up during that time. I'd personally recommend not consider taking the body off for maintenance purposes. It's more work than you think and once painted, not something you really want to do unnecessarily.

[Mike.Bray]

If I ever build another MKIV I wouldn't put the fuse panel where FFR says to. If a MC leaks it's right over the fuse panel. Same for the windshield post. I would look at moving it over to the passenger side or even in the trunk like OB6 (https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?45859-Terry-s-LS-MK4-Build-a-few-updates) did.

Just my thoughts.

[Jim1855]

I have cut the DS footbox specifically to allow easier access to the MCs and throttle pedal linkage.

Access through the small cover in the standard panels is even more restricted in a Challenge Car than the Roadster. There's a 1.5" chassis support tube running above the MCs & pedal box from the dash area to the shock towers. It's hard enough to work with the MCs without the footbox aluminum in place.

I'll photo my mod and post in a day or so.

I will not put the fusebox behind the dash on the driver's side. Most likely in front of a fabricated glovebox.

Jim

[D Stand]

195482

Sorry for the sideways pictures, but I moved the fuse panel to the center below dash for the reasons listed for access and risk of water/brake fluid….195483

[GoDadGo]

195482

Sorry for the sideways pictures, but I moved the fuse panel to the center below dash for the reasons listed for access and risk of water/brake fluid….195483

Like D Stand, I too moved the fuse block but in my case I moved it all the way over the the passenger side of the car.
I just flipped the blinker wiring so left is right and right is left which is the reason why Jeff Kleiner often calls me Heyoka.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/album.php?albumid=977&attachmentid=51762

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/album.php?albumid=977&attachmentid=51773

You can really see how unobstructed the MC's are in this video, plus having moved the fuse block keeps it high and dry.
Water can't run down the windshield stanchion to dampen my fuse block since it is well positioned under the cowl.
I didn't have to extend the wiring harness, but it was a little mentally taxing when I was routing the front harness.

https://youtu.be/_wnHDNgnNqs

Heyoka:
The heyoka is a kind of sacred clown in the culture of the Sioux, Lakota & Dakota people of the Great Plains of North America.
A heyoka is always a contrarian, jester, and satirist, who speaks, moves and reacts in an opposite fashion to others around them.

Good Luck & Welcome To The Party!

[OB6]

As Mike said above, I placed my fuse box in the trunk. However this requires the use of a universal harness, and one that's made for rear installation. On the plus side, I have a ton of flexibility, but I can't use any of the FFR/RF instructions and support.

[rvanstory]

Thank you guys for the responses! I like the idea of moving fuse panel to under the dash, not the footbox. Now it's time to re-do what I've already done. That's part of the "fun" AND "frustration" when building a kit.

[CaptB]

If I had to do it all over again, I would relocate the fuse panel as GoDadGo did.
-Capt. B

[Mike.Bray]

If I had to do it all over again, I would relocate the fuse panel as GoDadGo did.
-Capt. B

So would I!

[rvanstory]

"I just flipped the blinker wiring so left is right and right is left which is the reason why Jeff Kleiner often calls me Heyoka."

GoDadGo,
Question, did you flip the wiring for the blinkers by cutting and splicing the wires, or were you able to remove the wires from the connector to flip them? If you removed from connectors, can you give me insight on how you got the installed pins out? I'm not familiar with this style of connector.

[Rebostar]

Great idea and execution on the center fuse panel. Having spent 40+ years in the aviation maintenance industry, and stuffing my 6'2" frame under the instument panels of everything from a Cessna 120 to an SE 330J Puma Helicopter, I can tell you, trouble shooting, repairing and maintaining electrical sytems upside down with little to no space is not a "good time". Even less so with the space availible on the MK4.
My plan and preliminary drawings will be doing away with the entire RF fuse panel with most of the wire harness and fabricating a aircraft style circut breaker panel located exactly where you put your circuit breaker panel.
One thing you will never see in aviation is any flamable liquid operated device (ie brake fluid filled MC) located above any electrical equipment, much less the major electrical distributuion panel.
One last note: we dont have to ask the FAA or DOT for permission to cut access and inspection holes w/panels where ever we like.

Rebostar

[GoDadGo]

One last note: we don't have to ask the FAA or DOT for permission to cut access and inspection holes w/panels where ever we like.

Rebostar

Access panels and serviceability are really important and more than just nice to have.
The following items are removable on the Redbone Roadster using only a 1/8" Allen Wrench:

1. Dash Board
2. Stereo & Switch Pod
3. Stereo Speakers
4. Transmission Tunnel Top
5. Clutch Slave Cylinder Panel
6. M.C. Access Panels
7. Fuel Sending Unit & Pick Up Tube Panel
8. Steering Wheel To Quick Release Hub
9. Even my grill uses the same fastener.

Yes, the O.C.D. Gene is very strong and active in my pea sized brain.
I also keep a 1/8" Allen T-Handle on side of my seat.

NAKED COBRA WAITING FOR PAINTED BODY:
https://youtu.be/V38Jajo_qOQ

[rvanstory]

Follow up....

Thanks to suggestion by GoDadGo, I relocated the fuse box to passenger side. Since I'm not putting in a glove box, gave me lots of space to choose from. Fabricated a lower panel mounting bracket large enough to cut out fuse box hole, then mounted FFR fuse box holder panel as a "doubler" and riveted the two together. Then got 1" spacers to raise the box up into the panel so it would be flush with lower panel. Relocated front harness to passenger side of frame and was able to de-pin the front blinker wires and swap them so left is right and right is left. Overall, very happy with the relocation efforts. Now my hydraulic clutch master cylinder should be replaceable in the future if needed. It'll still be tight, but DOABLE!!.

195562 195564 195565

[Jim1855]

Here's my DS footbox access mod.

Original access to the footbox.
195566

The whole top section of the sidewall is removable along with the top of the footbox cut along the lines in the blue tape. There's still a bit to work out but it does provide increased access to the MCs and throttle linkage.
195567

The additional frame bar runs over the top of the MCs.
195568

Another view of the frame bar.
195569

Maybe this offers an option to an otherwise cramped space.

Jim

[tundra2050]

Follow up....

Thanks to suggestion by GoDadGo, I relocated the fuse box to passenger side. Since I'm not putting in a glove box, gave me lots of space to choose from. Fabricated a lower panel mounting bracket large enough to cut out fuse box hole, then mounted FFR fuse box holder panel as a "doubler" and riveted the two together. Then got 1" spacers to raise the box up into the panel so it would be flush with lower panel. Relocated front harness to passenger side of frame and was able to de-pin the front blinker wires and swap them so left is right and right is left. Overall, very happy with the relocation efforts. Now my hydraulic clutch master cylinder should be replaceable in the future if needed. It'll still be tight, but DOABLE!!.

195562 195564 195565

I love this solution attributed to GoDadGo and the others who regretted not moving the fuse box. Luckily, I get to benefit. I hope one day I'll be able to contribute down the line.

I'm installing the FFR heater/defroster and wipers and just have the FFR firewall. Does anyone think it would pose a problem to move the fuse box a little more to the right to accommodate the heater box with the PS fuse box configuration? Will it shorten the Sending Unit, Rear, Alternator, and Starting harnesses? Anything else y'all can think of is greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

[rponfick]

Question for MK5 builders that have fitted the body in place. The DS footbox area is a bid different than on the MK4. Do you think the whole upper driver-side footbox panel can be removed for access with the body on? There appears to be a bit of space between the body and the outer edge of the panel for rivnuts or something removable, and some hand space.
I am not to that stage yet, but I am sure others have been there.
Thanks, Ralph

[Fixit]

I just went through the exact scenario you described... pulling the clutch MC via the access hatch.
It isn't fun. It isn't easy. But it is "do-able".
Rebuilding all 3 MC's on a MkIV Roadster (https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLGWYUGGhs7StsczTH-ybBxA9IGou_OpBc&si=fbHXpUER-w-jc-C_)

[Jeff Kleiner]

Question for MK5 builders that have fitted the body in place. The DS footbox area is a bid different than on the MK4. Do you think the whole upper driver-side footbox panel can be removed for access with the body on? There appears to be a bit of space between the body and the outer edge of the panel for rivnuts or something removable, and some hand space.
I am not to that stage yet, but I am sure others have been there.
Thanks, Ralph

Yes, the top can be removed.

Jeff

[JIMOCO]

I suggest expanding the opening of the access panel as close to each edge as possible. Recently I has a clutch pedal issue on my Mk4 that required removing the entire pedal assembly (Clutch and Brake Pedals) and MCs. With the help of Brendan Dougherty, we removed the entire top panel by chiseling out all of the rivets. This enabled us to pull the pedal assembly up to remove it. You cannot remove it into the footbox. That is not a fun project. Clutch pedal repair is done and assembly reinstalled. Since the entire top panel is out of the car, I am in the process of reinstalling it and am considering options to reattach it without using rivets and silicone sealant.

[edwardb]

Question for MK5 builders that have fitted the body in place. The DS footbox area is a bid different than on the MK4. Do you think the whole upper driver-side footbox panel can be removed for access with the body on? There appears to be a bit of space between the body and the outer edge of the panel for rivnuts or something removable, and some hand space.
I am not to that stage yet, but I am sure others have been there.
Thanks, Ralph

As Jeff said, yes the footbox tops can be made removable. Mandatory for the DS. Highly recommended for the PS if you're installing A/C or heat since unlike previous versions, the unit is inside the footbox. I haven't gotten that far yet, but the another recommendation (again from Jeff) is to make the entire panel(s) removable. Apparently makes it easier to access the windshield bolts. I haven't decided the details about how I will attach mine. Probably #10 screws into nutserts or threads tapped into the frame around the perimeter of the covers. The challenge is that all but one corner is covered by the body overhead. I think there's adequate access to reach in and remove/replace most of the screws. However the outside back corners are very close and likely not enough clearance with the body on. The covers have about an approximate 1/2-inch right angle bend along the back edge up onto the firewall. There might be an opportunity there to add a couple fasteners on that flange. I'm going to wait until the next time I have the body on to decide exactly where I'm going to place fasteners. Important to make whatever method is used a decent seal to prevent underhood heated air from getting into the foot boxes. Maybe some type of gasket? I haven't decided about that either.

To all those posting -- this question and responses are about the Mk5. It's completely different than previous Mk's where typically the only access was on the LH driver's side and through a smallish angled panel since the footbox basically goes all the way up to the underside of the body. The good news is that with the footbox top off on the Mk5 it does have somewhat better access since the opening is larger.