Anyone know why FF went to a 1.5" roll bar with MkIV?

[jeskam]

They just look so wimpy to me.. maybe a cost thing? If there's some sort of increase in safety I can get down with that but otherwise... doesn't seem like a step in the right direction..

[gbranham]

I don't know the answer, but I agree with you. I like the thicker, shorter roll bar I had on my MkIII. This one seems too tall and too thin. Breeze makes a good alternative, but requires some welding of the 3rd leg. Not a show-stopper, but it's not plug and play.

[Lickity-Split]

I agree with the "wimpy" comment, and went with the Breeze alternative. Needed welding and chrome, but I like the look:

193823

[cv2065]

The infamous ‘paper clip”. FFR still makes the 2” roll bar if you want it. They are made to order so you just have to ask for them. They also sell the trim rings.

[gbranham]

I agree with the "wimpy" comment, and went with the Breeze alternative. Needed welding and chrome, but I like the look:

193823

Is your paint E4 Vermillion Red by chance? I painted my MkIII with it, and you car looks nearly identical to mine.

193824

[Jeff Kleiner]

They went to the 1 1/2” inch bars on the Mk4 to be like the originals. At the same time they also redesigned the body and lowered the rear quarters, also to be more accurate to the originals. People often talk about the Mk4 bars being taller but they are not…measuring from the cockpit floor to the top of the bar the Mk4 is EXACTLY the same as the Mk1, 2 and 3. The apparently taller height is all a visual trick due to the smaller diameter and lower rear cowl. That said, I agree with Chad that using a 2” bar on a Mk4 does somewhat reduce the visual impact.

Jeff

[GoDadGo]

What Jeff Said!

Here is Dave Doing The Official Instruction For The MK-4 Roadster Back On: 02/13/2010

https://youtu.be/6ckgfkPU8Ss

[cv2065]

People often talk about the Mk4 bars being taller but they are not…measuring from the cockpit floor to the top of the bar the Mk4 is EXACTLY the same as the Mk1, 2 and 3. The apparently taller height is all a visual trick due to the smaller diameter and lower rear cowl.

Great point Jeff. I did not know that and always assumed they were taller. I'll be cutting about 2" off of my 2" rollbar to lower it a bit. That probably won't be acceptable for track use. I also forgot to mention that the 2" roll bars from FFR also come in gloss black but not the trim rings.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Great point Jeff. I did not know that and always assumed they were taller. I'll be cutting about 2" off of my 2" rollbar to lower it a bit. That probably won't be acceptable for track use. I also forgot to mention that the 2" roll bars from FFR also come in gloss black but not the trim rings.

May or may not be OK for track use depending on your height and the seat height. You realize that when you cut the bars down that the chassis stubs for the rear leg will have to be cut off, repositioned and welded and also the body cutouts will have to be filled and relocated, right?

[GoDadGo]

F.Y.I. / Hoop Mounting

I didn't cut my bars, but did grind off the spot welds which allowed the main hoops to sit directly on the frame.
I then upgraded the bolts to Grade-8 and increased the size/diameter in the process.
All are Cross Bolted which was done in an attempt to better secure them.
The car does pass the broom stick test with helmets on.
They are about 1.5" lower than stock.

https://www.factoryfive.com/whats-new/customer-steve-l-graduates-his-mk4-roadster/

[cv2065]

You realize that when you cut the bars down that the chassis stubs for the rear leg will have to be cut off, repositioned and welded and also the body cutouts will have to be filled and relocated, right?

Haven't explored that quite yet. I know Michael Craven (aka Hacksaw) did the same thing. He's local and the bars on his car look amazing. He said he simply enlarged the holes but didn't mention having to modify like that but I'll ask him.

[Justin]

I know there is some functionality with the taller bars and they do look closer to original in some ways. But the lower, bigger bars take the win for me. I think the angle plays a big roll in the appearance too. It's amazing how different a car can look when the windshield or bar angle is off.

[Lickity-Split]

Is your paint E4 Vermillion Red by chance? I painted my MkIII with it, and you car looks nearly identical to mine.

193824

It's BMW "Imola" red.

[Lickity-Split]

Another angle of the Breeze roll bar:

193875

[Fman]

If you are tall-ish this is why you don't want the breeze roll bar, this drivers head would be protecting the roll bar. I was in the same situation so went paper clips. Would be even worse if you had a helmet on for a track day.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfntCxGanHk

[cv2065]

May or may not be OK for track use depending on your height and the seat height. You realize that when you cut the bars down that the chassis stubs for the rear leg will have to be cut off, repositioned and welded and also the body cutouts will have to be filled and relocated, right?

Man, why do you always have to be right Jeff! :D I didn’t do enough homework on this one. I shouldn’t have had FFR cut the third leg hole. I know it can be filled, but still. I looked on Hacksaw’s thread and saw that he did indeed have the third support moved. Again not a huge deal but maybe the Breeze setup is a better option at this point. The bars are still thicker than stock, height is good and I’ve always liked the rake as well.

Thanks for the heads up there Jeff!

[Jeff Kleiner]

Man, why do you always have to be right Jeff! :D I didn’t do enough homework on this one. I shouldn’t have had FFR cut the third leg hole. I know it can be filled, but still. I looked on Hacksaw’s thread and saw that he did indeed have the third support moved. Again not a huge deal but maybe the Breeze setup is a better option at this point. The bars are still thicker than stock, height is good and I’ve always liked the rake as well.

Thanks for the heads up there Jeff!

My wife would beg to differ with you on that "always right" statement Chad! Put together a few dozen of these things and you do learn a thing or two about what works and what doesn't though ;) I like the look of the Breeze bars and have done several cars with them, both stainless and mild steel but just be aware that they aren't "plug & play. Getting the telescoping tubes setup and the fasteners properly located can be a little fiddly, the rear leg has to be mocked up with the bars installed on the chassis and welded and I have yet to have a set that didn't require some rework of the body cutouts, not just due to the size but also to allow installation while still being able to cover the opening with the trim rings (last ones I got came from the late Russ Thompson; not sure if someone else has picked up the production of them).

Jeff

[cv2065]

My wife would beg to differ with you on that "always right" statement Chad! Put together a few dozen of these things and you do learn a thing or two about what works and what doesn't though ;) I like the look of the Breeze bars and have done several cars with them, both stainless and mild steel but just be aware that they aren't "plug & play. Getting the telescoping tubes setup and the fasteners properly located can be a little fiddly, the rear leg has to be mocked up with the bars installed on the chassis and welded and I have yet to have a set that didn't require some rework of the body cutouts, not just due to the size but also to allow installation while still being able to cover the opening with the trim rings (last ones I got came from the late Russ Thompson; not sure if someone else has picked up the production of them).

Jeff

Thanks again Jeff. I know a mobile welder that can come out to do it on the car and will be able to massage the holes myself. Also, now that I remember, I don't think FFR will just omit one hole. I think it's all or nothing.

I reached out to Mike Everson to see if he offers those trim rings. I thought I read somewhere that he does but I'll update in case anyone needs a source.

Jeff - By the way, does the Breeze rollbar sit at about the same height as the windshield? Hard to tell in some photos.

[Inman Lanier]

Jeff is spot on. Take two sticks to have one emulate the front tubes, the 2nd to emulate the kicker. Hold the kicker in place, substitute a short one for the front, and you'll note you need to rake the rear kicker down to touch the top. It's a geometry thing.

OOPS - ingore this - too late!

[cv2065]

Mike does offer those trim rings for the Breeze bars by the way. He confirmed today.

[MPTech]

I installed the Breeze SS RollBars when they first came out. They were a bit more challenging to weld & install, but I prefer them over the FFR bars. I also run lower sitting race seats and lean them back a bit, so head height is not a problem.

[Mike.Bray]

I didn't like the paperclip bars either so went with the Breeze one. After welding it up had it chromed.

https://www.imagecoast.com/images/MichaelBray1/20230227162733mediumrotated.jpg

https://www.imagecoast.com/images/MichaelBray1/20230327111602mediumrotated.jpg

[cv2065]

I didn't like the paperclip bars either so went with the Breeze one. After welding it up had it chromed.

https://www.imagecoast.com/images/MichaelBray1/20230227162733mediumrotated.jpg

https://www.imagecoast.com/images/MichaelBray1/20230327111602mediumrotated.jpg

Looks great Mike. Returned my 2" and am going to get the Breeze one. Is the height about the same as the windshield?

[JJK]

With the Breeze bars, since they are welded to fit, there is a little bit of height choice. I have mine set as high as possible so that the inner legs are still below the body so you cannot see them with the gaskets and trim rings. At this height, they are about 1" taller than the windshield, but I probably could have made them an inch or so shorter if I had wanted.

[DW66]

Mine is all the way down.194012

Dave

[Jeff Kleiner]

Jeff - By the way, does the Breeze rollbar sit at about the same height as the windshield? Hard to tell in some photos.

Just took measurements on a couple of cars in the shop as well as my Mk3.

Cockpit floor to the top top of windshields is just shy of 37"

Cockpit floor to the top of the FFR 1 1/2" rollbar on a Mk4 is 39 3/4"

Cockpit floor to the top of the FFR 2" rollbar on a Mk3 is 40"

Cockpit floor to the top of the Breeze 1 3/4" rollbar on a Mk4 is 38 1/4"

Top of the FFR 1 1/2" rollbar to the body on a Mk4 is 15 1/2"

Top of the Breeze 1 3/4" rollbar to the body on a Mk4 is 13 1/4"

Top of the FFR 2" rollbar to the body on a Mk3 is 14 1/2"

Soooo, although there are probably some assembly variations among these as I said in an earlier response the standard Mk4 bars are actually no taller than they were on earlier roadsters and much of what's at play is just visual tricks our eyes play due to the smaller diameter tubing in conjunction with the lower deck on the Mk4.

Jeff