Tie Rods Too Long?

[cv2065]

I've installed and centered my PS rack and am using the Moog ES2150RL tie rod ends. Installed the ends to 2" of engagement on the rod and am still about 2.25" off from aligning with the arm. Even if I screwed them all the way down on the tie rod, I don't think the ends would mate up to where the spindle is correctly aligned. I don't recall having to shorten the tie rods and the Moog ends went on without issue in the last build. Thoughts?

[rich grsc]

Spindles assembled correctly?

[cv2065]

Spindles assembled correctly?

Roger that Rich. I read a few in the past took about 1.5" off of the length, but want to be sure before I start sawing away.

https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/c310/cv2065/IMG_8911.JPG?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/c310/cv2065/IMG_8911.JPG?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds)

[John Ibele]

Confirmed for my 2012-vintage kit. I recall lopping about 5/8” off the end of mine.

[Jeff Kleiner]

What rack? If you’re using a Ford rack with the FFR supplied extenders you gave to cut the inner tie rods.

Jeff

[BUDFIVE]

Another data point. My complete kit (11/18/23 ship) power steering rack and tie rod ends seem to have enough adjustment to reach 53-1/16 rough alignment starting distance, with some left over adjustment. I’m curious if there are different power steering racks FFR ships or when you say Ford rack, Jeff, are you referring to a donor?

[cv2065]

What rack? If you’re using a Ford rack with the FFR supplied extenders you gave to cut the inner tie rods.

Jeff

This is the rack that FFR sent with the complete kit.

https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/c310/cv2065/IMG_8896.JPG?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/c310/cv2065/IMG_8896.JPG?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds)


Here's the one FFR sent from 2018. Different colors, but look the same other than that.

https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/c310/cv2065/IMG_1293_zps9tmuohzy.jpg?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds (https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/c310/cv2065/IMG_1293_zps9tmuohzy.jpg?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds)

[AC Bill]

When I was building mine, there were three different lengths of outer tie-rods available. I used the mid-length ones and sold the others. The long ones look like yours do.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Why did you change to the Moogs rather than just using the ones that FFR supplied.

Jeff

[cv2065]

Why did you change to the Moogs rather than just using the ones that FFR supplied.

Jeff

I used them last time at the recommendation from Paul and really liked the quality. They also gave me another 3/4" of engagement on the rod as they are just slightly larger. I measured up the kit ends as well, and there is only about 1/4" difference, so the rods are too long either way. Everything mounted up great on the last build with no kind of cutting, so not sure what has changed.

[cv2065]

When I was building mine, there were three different lengths of outer tie-rods available. I used the mid-length ones and sold the others. The long ones look like yours do.

I didn't see any length options Bill. Just what I have.

[CraigS]

SHortening tie rods has been going on for a long time. As mentioned there are several length tierod ends available. I believe there are also different length tie rods available. It is common that racks come w/ tierods installed but they actually can be replaced. Then there were the spacers added to the rack just inside the tierods for quite a while so that caused an inch or so variation. I would mock up your front end alignment as closely as possible and cut tierods as needed. If you disconnect the top of the coilover you can jack up the lower ball joint until the LCA is horizontal so you are now approximating normal ride height pretty closely. Set the UCA sleeve lengths per the dimensions in the manual and verify that the rotor is perpendicular to the floor (zero camber). If you need to adjust to get zero camber, adjust the front sleeve only. This will get your caster approximate. Now you can set toein.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Options;
If you are intent on using the Moog outers you can swap to shorter inners…OR…thread the current inners farther in and then shorten them…OR…hit the “easy” button and simply use the FFR supplied matched parts.

I know what I’d do ;)

Jeff

[cv2065]

Options;
If you are intent on using the Moog outers you can swap to shorter inners…OR…thread the current inners farther in and then shorten them…OR…hit the “easy” button and simply use the FFR supplied matched parts.

I know what I’d do ;)

Jeff

LOL…Thanks Jeff! I did speak to Travis at FFR today. He asked for pics of the rack, as apparently there have been some sent out from another manufacturer in September (the black color) that would need to be cut. Or, he said he might send me another rack. Even if I thread the FFR supplied toe ends all the way, they bottom out about 1/2” before I can hook them to the arm. Unless I get another rack, the Moog’s won’t be an option. They are just too long for the threaded portion on this particular rack. FFR is going to call me back tomorrow.

[gbranham]

My kit-supplied power rack and kit-supplied ends required no cutting.

[Buzzsaw]

Would you please report what Factory Five tells you. I also have the black rack supplied in my kit.

[rich grsc]

Just get the shorter rod ends.

[Bill Elliott]

I have that same rack and the moog tie rod ends,, no cutting was required

[cv2065]

I have that same rack and the moog tie rod ends,, no cutting was required

Did you bottom out the Moogs?

[cv2065]

Just get the shorter rod ends.

I have them but they bottom out before I can hook the end up. I'd still have to cut the rod depending on how much thread adjustment one should leave for alignment?

[rich grsc]

The rod ends in your picture are not the shorter ends, but seriously how difficult is it to put the ends into the spindle then hold it up to the steering rods and measure???

[cv2065]

The rod ends in your picture are not the shorter ends, but seriously how difficult is it to put the ends into the spindle then hold it up to the steering rods and measure???

Yeah I know, those are the Moogs. I already screwed the FFR shorter ones on and they bottom out before I can install. I've got no issue cutting them but am waiting to hear back from FFR.

[cv2065]

Just as a follow up, I heard back from FFR. They state that I do indeed have the correct PS rack and that I need to cut off 1/2" to 3/4" of the tie rods to accommodate the ends. I'm still not really understanding why this rack is different from the last one, as I think it might be for a donor, but I'll get this done tomorrow.

Question is this. The FFR rod ends are bottoming out about 1/4" to 1/2" before I can hook to the arm. If I cut 3/4" off the rod, then I'll have about 1/4" of play outboard when final alignment comes. Is this enough or should I be trimming more?

Or, are their shorter ones that I can swap out with where I can use my Moog ends?

[CraigS]

There may be shorter ones but then you get into how to remove and install the new ones onto the rack. Not too terrible but always makes me a bit nervous. I 'think' your 3/4" cut will work. I would do that now and as you get closer to a final alignment, do your own as I suggest above and double check the amount of adjustment available. BTW, I don't know for sure but these racks are for a 25 year old car so I am thinking there may be a limit on actual all new pieces. I would not be surprised to find out there are no new ones, they are all rebuilds. I remember in the past that the recommendation was to take your small vice grips with you when buying a rebuilt because the rebuilders don't get real carried away differentiating a 3.0 turns rack from other ratios. So best to check. W/ that in mind, wherever these racks come from may not differentiate between tie rod lengths.

[gbranham]

I know I mentioned it earlier, but it's strange that my kit-supplied power rack and kit-supplied ends worked perfectly with no cutting required. My kit was delivered in July of this year. Weird. Do your kit-supplied rod ends look like mine, where the outer tie rod can thread deep into it? I've seen some earlier ends that only let the tie rod thread about an inch or 1.5" into it.


193750

[cv2065]

I know I mentioned it earlier, but it's strange that my kit-supplied power rack and kit-supplied ends worked perfectly with no cutting required. My kit was delivered in July of this year. Weird. Do your kit-supplied rod ends look like mine, where the outer tie rod can thread deep into it? I've seen some earlier ends that only let the tie rod thread about an inch or 1.5" into it.


193750

Yes, those were the exact ones I had before. Mark from Breeze stated that they are longer because this rack has 1.5" extenders. Definitely a rack for a donor I believe.

[cv2065]

There may be shorter ones but then you get into how to remove and install the new ones onto the rack. Not too terrible but always makes me a bit nervous. I 'think' your 3/4" cut will work. I would do that now and as you get closer to a final alignment, do your own as I suggest above and double check the amount of adjustment available. BTW, I don't know for sure but these racks are for a 25 year old car so I am thinking there may be a limit on actual all new pieces. I would not be surprised to find out there are no new ones, they are all rebuilds. I remember in the past that the recommendation was to take your small vice grips with you when buying a rebuilt because the rebuilders don't get real carried away differentiating a 3.0 turns rack from other ratios. So best to check. W/ that in mind, wherever these racks come from may not differentiate between tie rod lengths.

Thanks Craig. I looked over the process to swap out. Doesn't seem difficult, but I agree with you. I'm going to take the 3/4" off and see where we are. I do agree that FFR needs to get some kind of standard when sending these out. Or at least incorporate into the manual. IMO, complete kits should not be coming with rebuilt anything.

[rich grsc]

Like I said wrong length ends.
193769

[cv2065]

Like I said wrong length ends.
193769

It’s not the tie rod ends, it’s the length of the inner tie rods. They are too long for the FFR provided ends. That’s the issue as it does not apply to every rack that FFR sends out. This rack seems to have 1.5” rack extenders, so even if you cut the rods by 3/4” on each end, you still won’t get the additional adjustment outboard that you would get with a rack without them. Gbranham has the correct length tie rods that fit either the provided FFR or Moog ends with cutting and plenty of adjustment left, which is the same as I had before.

Edit: Thinking about it, I just sent FFR a note to swap this rack out. FFR supplied tie rod ends should fit without having to cut anthing.

[cv2065]

So one more update to close this thread out. I had asked FFR to swap out my rack for a ‘standard’ rack and here’s the response:

“We gave the extensions to help with bump steer. We no longer have a standard length rack. You will have to cut roughly about .5” to .75””

Ironically, I was just reading this Street Muscle magazine article from 2015 as they were assembling a Roadster. Says that because the Mustang steering rack is not technically designed for the MKIV Roadster, they added rack extenders help to adjust the width of the steering rack so the inner tie rod pivot is aligned with UCA and LCA pivot joints. Doing so helps to reduce bump steer. And this will require the cutting of the inner tie rod. Which is the same thing Travis said from FFR. So I guess no more Moog tie rod ends, as they don’t fit with the extenders, but with good reason.

[Jeff Kleiner]

This is not new; the extenders have been in use since the Mk4 was introduced in 2010 to improve bump steer geometry. If they are not used then yes, the longer outer rods can be used without shortening the inners but at the expense of bump steer.

Jeff

[cv2065]

This is not new; the extenders have been in use since the Mk4 was introduced in 2010 to improve bump steer geometry. If they are not used then yes, the longer outer rods can be used without shortening the inners but at the expense of bump steer.

Jeff

Thanks Jeff. Then perhaps the rack that I received before didn’t have the extenders and gbranham doesn’t have them either? I know the Moogs can’t be used at all. Even with cutting there would be zero adjustment room, or not fit at all with the extenders. Not sure of the difference in racks but all good.

[BUDFIVE]

I’ve been following this thread. I hope this isn’t hijacking, but maybe others are wondering too. Are the extenders on the inner tie rods, inside the boots? Or did I miss something in the kit boxes? This pic is my complete kit un-cut rack (11/18/23 ship) with FFR supplied tie rod ends adjusted to starting length. I have a few turns left-did I just get lucky?
193795

Thanks

[cv2065]

I’ve been following this thread. I hope this isn’t hijacking, but maybe others are wondering too. Are the extenders on the inner tie rods, inside the boots? Or did I miss something in the kit boxes? This pic is my complete kit un-cut rack (11/18/23 ship) with FFR supplied tie rod ends adjusted to starting length. I have a few turns left-did I just get lucky?
193795

Thanks

Hey Bud. It's a screw on fitting under the boot (between the rack and inner tie rod) that can come in many different sizes. Sounds like you are all set. If I were to screw in my FFR provided rod ends all the way down to where it bottoms out like in the picture below, I'm still about 1/2"-3/4" too long to be able to hook it on to the arm, so I have to cut that amount away from the rod. Again, I'm not sure why some come with it and some don't when the change was made so long ago. Maybe someone else can chime in on that.

https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/c310/cv2065/IMG_8913.JPG?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/c310/cv2065/IMG_8913.JPG?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds)

[Dave108]

I just measured mine (MK4 completion date of 11/11/23). With the tie rods turned all the way in until bottomed out I measure 53.75". This makes my car look pigeon toed. I was thinking I would need to cut off some length or buy the MOOG tie rods, but now looks like the Moog option won't workwon't work.

[Dave108]

I am confused, are the extenders something that can be removed to shorten the total length? Also I don't understand why the LCA should be horizontal (as if the car is on the ground), the tie rods don't go in and out, so as long as the unconnected tie rods are horizontal when you measure should be accurate - right?

[edwardb]

I am confused, are the extenders something that can be removed to shorten the total length? Also I don't understand why the LCA should be horizontal (as if the car is on the ground), the tie rods don't go in and out, so as long as the unconnected tie rods are horizontal when you measure should be accurate - right?

Don't try to remove the extenders. They're there to improve front suspension geometry and reduce bump steer.

Cutting the tie rod ends has been part of these builds since I've been following for 10+ years. Nothing new. Sometimes required. Sometimes not. There clearly is some variability in the racks from Factory Five and elsewhere. I've had to cut some. Others not. I can't explain it. But whatever the history is doesn't matter. Do it if you have to. Don't over analyze at this point with (1) suspension hanging, and (2) front end alignment only roughly estimated.

I've used the Moog tie rod ends on four builds with no issues. All but my truck build which has a different setup. They (IMO) are higher quality. Plus the thread engagement is visible which I like. But the ones provided in the kit are OK. Especially if you run out of threads with the slightly longer Moog parts.

[rich grsc]

I just measured mine (MK4 completion date of 11/11/23). With the tie rods turned all the way in until bottomed out I measure 53.75". This makes my car look pigeon toed. I was thinking I would need to cut off some length or buy the MOOG tie rods, but now looks like the Moog option won't workwon't work.

If it is "pigeon toed" cutting the rod is going to make it worse. You have already screwed the ends on too far.

[cv2065]

If it is "pigeon toed" cutting the rod is going to make it worse. You have already screwed the ends on too far.

Agree with Rich. You just need to screw the rod ends 1 to 2 inches on the rod as instructed in the manual. If they hook up with the arms in that range, you are good to go! And if that is the case, sounds like you'll also be able to use Moog ends if you so choose. Hopefully you haven't cut anything.

[Dave108]

I think I used the wrong term, I meant the opposite of pigeon toed, (don't know what it is called).
I looked at my setup again, backed the tie rods out, added a couple drops of oil, then used a wrench to hold the inner tie rod from turning (my prior try I felt things tighten up and thought I was bottomed out). With the wrench on the inner tie rod I was now able to get the outer tie rod to thread in farther. I can now get the 53 1/16". Looks good now. Woo Hoo!

[cv2065]

I think I used the wrong term, I meant the opposite of pigeon toed, (don't know what it is called).
I looked at my setup again, backed the tie rods out, added a couple drops of oil, then used a wrench to hold the inner tie rod from turning (my prior try I felt things tighten up and thought I was bottomed out). With the wrench on the inner tie rod I was now able to get the outer tie rod to thread in farther. I can now get the 53 1/16". Looks good now. Woo Hoo!

Good to hear! I plan to give myself some adjustment room on both sides of the tie rod end. I'm not sure really how much that should be for alignment purposes. If anyone could chime in there, that would be great.