BPE Power Steering Pumps...PS Preessures...Pressure reduction...the saga continues

[scrubs]

This may be a thread that calls for popcorn, but hopefully I learn something, so here goes...


It feel like I have been seeing quite a few threads lately about Saginaw pumps, PS pressures, pressure reducers, and so on. Based on the recent thread of the BPE PS by member jjk, I reached out to BPE about what was on my motor and here is what I got:

"We typically get our front drive assembly kits from CVF Racing. CVF only uses 2 power steering pumps, one that is the Saginaw ‘keyway’ power steering pump and the other being the Saginaw GM type 2 power steering pump. Both of the pumps provide 1200psi."


I then reached out to FFR wondering if my FFR supplied rack needed some pressure adjustment. The gist of their response:

"Blueprint has specific engine packages for Factory 5 kits that have the correct power steering pump on them. This might differ from other engine kits that they offer, but there should not be any issues as long as the correct engine kit is ordered from them."

Not sure if the right and left hands talk to each other, I Hope they do.


I surfed around for a short while trying to find problems with over-pressure. I assumed blowing seals out, etc, but I really did not find anything other than forum anecdotes about pressures causing leaks, hose issues, and 1 seal failure.

An interesting read on the website of this steering component company (yes, from Saginaw, MI) seems to indicate that the increased pressure is only on demand and we should not worry (https://turnonesteering.com/2022/10/what-does-pressure-capacity-mean-in-a-power-steering-pump/):

"We hear A LOT from people who want to lower their pump’s factory pressure capacity from 1200 psi into the 800 psi range “because my rack can’t handle the higher pressures.” Any normal OEM-grade steering rack was designed to handle pressures that far exceed 800 psi. If indeed you’re buying a rack that can’t handle even standard factory pressures, then I would look closely at the quality of rack you are purchasing, it may not be a very good investment. And as I just mentioned above, the pump is not always outputting it’s maximum pressure. The pump is already self-regulating it’s pressure output. The pump would only output 800 psi if the rack actually needs 800 psi as you are cornering."

Another article from Motor Trend only mentioned increased "twitchy" steering with the increased pressures and no mention of imminent failures.

So, do we really need pressure reducing valves/kits (from a failure, not comfort/personal adjustability standpoint)?

Discuss amongst yourselves:)

j

[Papa]

I can only offer my experience, so consider it a data point. My BPE 347 came with the typical Saginaw pump found on countless vehicles. I have the FFR supplied rack and in almost four years on the road, I've not had any issues with the power steering. It feels tight and is in no way twitchy or light.

[nucjd19]

Agree with Papa above. BPE 347 with accompanying steering pump from BPE and absolutely no problems so far at over 2000 miles

[scrubs]

Forgot to mention, I am at 600 miles, not a lot, but adds to the total.

[i.e.427]

At least someone watched the video this week. What a dud. LOL ;) The pressure valve is more to tailor the steering to the driver than anything else. Remember, most of you are now using the Factory Five Mk4 spindles. Something many of us early builders did not have. We added steering valves and increased caster angles to get the car to not be overly "twitchy" on heavily grooved highways with wide tires. All that said, even an earlier car does not "need" a steering valve. I chose one so I could drive daily with less assist and dial it all the way up when tracking or auto-crossing the car.

Frank

[Jeff Kleiner]

At least someone watched the video this week. What a dud. LOL ;) The pressure valve is more to tailor the steering to the driver than anything else. Remember, most of you are now using the Factory Five Mk4 spindles. Something many of us early builders did not have. We added steering valves and increased caster angles to get the car to not be overly "twitchy" on heavily grooved highways with wide tires. All that said, even an earlier car does not "need" a steering valve. I chose one so I could drive daily with less assist and dial it all the way up when tracking or auto-crossing the car.

Frank

Same as Frank. I run a Heidts valve and back the assist off on the street and go up for track and autocross. The car drives the same either way but I just like a little more effort for the street.

Jeff

[jab351w]

I can only offer my experience, so consider it a data point. My BPE 347 came with the typical Saginaw pump found on countless vehicles. I have the FFR supplied rack and in almost four years on the road, I've not had any issues with the power steering. It feels tight and is in no way twitchy or light.

Dave, apologies for picking nits, but based upon the photos in your build thread, you have a Ford CII pump, not a Saginaw (GM) pump. While Saginaw pumps were used on some Ford vehicles (primarily 70s full size cars and some vans), the fox mustangs and most other 80s and 90s Fords used the CII pump.

Ford CII pump: https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=12747949&cc=1133985&pt=7380&jsn=479
Saginaw type I pump with "canned ham" reservoir: https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=10543184&cc=1111756&pt=7380&jsn=553

[Papa]

Dave, apologies for picking nits, but based upon the photos in your build thread, you have a Ford CII pump, not a Saginaw (GM) pump. While Saginaw pumps were used on some Ford vehicles (primarily 70s full size cars and some vans), the fox mustangs and most other 80s and 90s Fords used the CII pump.

Ford CII pump: https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=12747949&cc=1133985&pt=7380&jsn=479
Saginaw type I pump with "canned ham" reservoir: https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=10543184&cc=1111756&pt=7380&jsn=553

Thanks for that info. When I was building the car, someone told me that my pump was a Saginaw pump and that I should change out a spring to reduce pressure. I had no idea what that meant and just made a note of it, but never followed up. Since that time, I believed what I was told and never questioned it. I guess we learn something every day.

Dave

[JJK]

Ok, this keeps getting more interesting. Like the OP, I called BPE yesterday and was told I had a GM style 1200psi pump. Then I see the exchange in this thread with Papa and noticed my pump looks like his. So I sent an email to BPE and this was their response.

"Hello JJ,

Thank you for reaching back out. The front accessory drives that we are using on our Factory Five builds get their own Front drives. Our other BluePrint Engines builds, not for Factory Five, use a different front accessory drive. The front accessory drive your engine BP3473CTFK uses is a stock Ford Mustang pump which Factory Five uses a rack from so it's compatible. It is not a 1200 PSI GM Type 2 LS style pump on your build. I hope this clears up the confusion. If you have any other questions, feel free to contact us. "

This doesn't answer the question of whether a pressure reducer is needed for a GM pump, but does clear up some confusion, at least for me.
JJ

[scrubs]

Interesting indeed. Can you send a pic of your pump (I will look for Papa's as well) so I can compare. My engine is a "CTCK," so not sure if that makes my PS different.

At least we learned a few things here:

1) If you wanna know what pump you have from BPE, check with them 2-3 times, then compare with other forum members (or maybe the reverse is more reliable)
2) Whether you figure it out or not, you probably don't need a restrictor for reliability purposes.

Good to learn, hopefully helps someone in the future.

[rich grsc]

Ok, this keeps getting more interesting. Like the OP, I called BPE yesterday and was told I had a GM style 1200psi pump. Then I see the exchange in this thread with Papa and noticed my pump looks like his. So I sent an email to BPE and this was their response.

"Hello JJ,

Thank you for reaching back out. The front accessory drives that we are using on our Factory Five builds get their own Front drives. Our other BluePrint Engines builds, not for Factory Five, use a different front accessory drive. The front accessory drive your engine BP3473CTFK uses is a stock Ford Mustang pump which Factory Five uses a rack from so it's compatible. It is not a 1200 PSI GM Type 2 LS style pump on your build. I hope this clears up the confusion. If you have any other questions, feel free to contact us. "

This doesn't answer the question of whether a pressure reducer is needed for a GM pump, but does clear up some confusion, at least for me.
JJ


Interesting indeed. Can you send a pic of your pump (I will look for Papa's as well) so I can compare. My engine is a "CTCK," so not sure if that makes my PS different.

At least we learned a few things here:

1) If you wanna know what pump you have from BPE, check with them 2-3 times, then compare with other forum members (or maybe the reverse is more reliable)
2) Whether you figure it out or not, you probably don't need a restrictor for reliability purposes.

Good to learn, hopefully helps someone in the future.

If you just read the replies from Jeff Kleiner and Frank(i.e427), then you would have the answer.

[JJK]

Scrubs, here is a picture of my pump (excuse the red gelcoat dust that goes everywhere, haven't cleaned it all up yet :) ).

192960

Rich, I was actually following Jeff's recommendation from the other day when I was unsure of what type of pump I had and BPE told me it was a GM style. Looks like not only do I no longer need the CVF pressure valve I have on order, it wouldn't mate up anyway. And to be fair, the OP was asking about long-term reliability issues, which I think is a fair question if there is a considerable pressure differential between the pump and rack. Jeff and ie427 both use a Heidts valve, so they share a similar concern to some degree, either for reliability, comfort, or performance; the pressure differential impacts things, but there are other ways to reduce the pressure if needed besides the Heidts valve.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Scrubs, here is a picture of my pump (excuse the red gelcoat dust that goes everywhere, haven't cleaned it all up yet :) ).

192960

.

That’s a Ford pump. Perfectly compatible with the rack but if you’d like to reduce the pressure and assist you can simply trim the relief spring.

Jeff

[JJK]

That’s a Ford pump. Perfectly compatible with the rack but if you’d like to reduce the pressure and assist you can simply trim the relief spring.

Jeff

Thank you for confirming.

[rich grsc]

Scrubs, here is a picture of my pump (excuse the red gelcoat dust that goes everywhere, haven't cleaned it all up yet :) ).

192960

Rich, I was actually following Jeff's recommendation from the other day when I was unsure of what type of pump I had and BPE told me it was a GM style. Looks like not only do I no longer need the CVF pressure valve I have on order, it wouldn't mate up anyway. And to be fair, the OP was asking about long-term reliability issues, which I think is a fair question if there is a considerable pressure differential between the pump and rack. Jeff and ie427 both use a Heidts valve, so they share a similar concern to some degree, either for reliability, comfort, or performance; the pressure differential impacts things, but there are other ways to reduce the pressure if needed besides the Heidts valve.

My reply was really directed towards the issue of high-pressure causing failures.

[weendoggy]

Strange nobody is addressing the difference in rack ratio. 2.5 or 3.0, which has an effect on PS as well. Some like one over the other and it's a personal preference. Either of the pumps effect the pressure/sensitivity. However, the GM Type II is adjustable by shims and not having to cut a spring like the Ford pump, making it much easier to tailor (plus it just looks better). Or you can use a control valve (like Heidt's) and dial it in. I personally use a 2.5 ratio with Heidt's valve and started with the Ford pump then transitioned to the Type II when it became usable. Still have the Heidt's valve to control, but don't have to dial it in for either street or track. I've been using the 2.5 ratio and PS from day one, over 24yrs and no failures due to pressure on the rack.