Center Section installation questions —-

[TXJosh]

Hello all and happy thanksgiving
I’m building a mkiv with an IRS and I gather am not the first person to find the center section a challenge.
This is my first build. I have attempted to Jack it up (3.75’ 2 ton Jack) and got it up into the cage and while on my back underneath the pumpkin just can’t seem to bench press and rotate it in. I have experienced with different alignments on the way up (front end pointed up, axle holes aligned longitudinally etc) but it just seems pretty damn dangerous trying to get it in with an off center bench press balancing on the Jack platform which is the size of a deck of cards.

Has anyone tried to hoist it up with a harness and overhead hoist into the cage so that it has a safety net while being manipulated? At least that way it won’t take out a limb if it comes down in process.

I’ve read the forums and can see that folks are having success with jacks and drift punches and bench pressing. For most of you has it been primarily trial and error via this method?

Am being assisted by my capable teenage sons so we have six hands.

Thank you!

[cv2065]

If you use a transmission jack, you have a lot more surface area under the section. Kind of cradles it a bit. I did it by myself last time. Now my front bolts won't easily push through the sleeves, but I'll be there tomorrow!

[OB6]

If you have access to an engine hoist, it's not a bad job at all. I had my wife slowly operate the hoist while I guided the diff into place. Drift pins are a huge help too.

[narly1]

What are the pros and cons of flipping the frame upside down and making the center section install one of the first assembly steps?

Thinking one could then use their engine hoist to drop it into place.

I know drilling the sheet metal panels for the bottom side was a lot easier with the frame in this attitude.

Earl

[edwardb]

This series for photos from my 20th Anniversary Roadster build shows how it goes in. Takes a sharp angle from the bottom and then rotated into place. I used a shop crane to help. Of course that only works if the trunk aluminum isn't in place.

https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/ab234/edwardb123/Factory%20Five%2020th%20Anniversary%20Mark%204%20R oadster/Independent%20Rear%20Suspension/.highres/IMG_3324_zpsaxcegcv7.jpg?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds (https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/ab234/edwardb123/Factory%20Five%2020th%20Anniversary%20Mark%204%20R oadster/Independent%20Rear%20Suspension/.highres/IMG_3324_zpsaxcegcv7.jpg?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)

https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/ab234/edwardb123/Factory%20Five%2020th%20Anniversary%20Mark%204%20R oadster/Independent%20Rear%20Suspension/.highres/IMG_3327_zpshnukpuzk.jpg?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds (https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/ab234/edwardb123/Factory%20Five%2020th%20Anniversary%20Mark%204%20R oadster/Independent%20Rear%20Suspension/.highres/IMG_3327_zpshnukpuzk.jpg?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)

https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/ab234/edwardb123/Factory%20Five%2020th%20Anniversary%20Mark%204%20R oadster/Independent%20Rear%20Suspension/.highres/IMG_3328_zpsoya7bkqr.jpg?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds (https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/ab234/edwardb123/Factory%20Five%2020th%20Anniversary%20Mark%204%20R oadster/Independent%20Rear%20Suspension/.highres/IMG_3328_zpsoya7bkqr.jpg?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)

https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/ab234/edwardb123/Factory%20Five%2020th%20Anniversary%20Mark%204%20R oadster/Independent%20Rear%20Suspension/.highres/IMG_3329_zps9a27iwao.jpg?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds (https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/ab234/edwardb123/Factory%20Five%2020th%20Anniversary%20Mark%204%20R oadster/Independent%20Rear%20Suspension/.highres/IMG_3329_zps9a27iwao.jpg?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)

[CraigS]

EdwardB has a tremendous setup. I was going to suggest 2 other helps. Ratchet straps as a safety and to allow you a chance to simply let go while you look and think. You might also be able to figure a way to bolt a piece of plywood maybe 15"x15", possibly w/ small strips of plywood or trim screwed on at the edges to act as small fences. If you try that I'd also look at a way to keep the jack from rolling out of position. Could be a simple as an old blanket folded in 4-5 layers, 3-4-5 layers of cardboard so the wheels sink in at a spot and can't roll as easily. My jack has a bolt w/ a wide head that holds the main pad on. I found I could remove it, find a longer bolt that I could use to attach like plywood on top of the jack pad.

[Sarcasticshrub]

I did something similar to what EdwardB did but put the pumpkin on one of those HF furniture dollies to roll it under the rear section. After that, it was a matter of using similar ratches to lift it up a little bit at a time until the rear was close enough to slip in a few large punches to hold it in place while I aligned the front part.

192598

I didn't need to get under it at all while it was loose. I wrapped it up with old sweaters and used a towel on the front to protect things.

Using smaller diameter punches or bolts instead of the actual bolts to pass through the 4 mounts helps. Just replace them one at a time with the real deal when ready.

[JohnK]

Honestly, the easiest way is to get a couple friends to come over and help you install it. 2-3 people can easily manhandle it into place without messing around with jacks, straps and whatnot.

[edwardb]

Honestly, the easiest way is to get a couple friends to come over and help you install it. 2-3 people can easily manhandle it into place without messing around with jacks, straps and whatnot.

Friends? Friends?? :rolleyes: Yeah, I agree. With a few helpers this piece goes in much easier. Same thing with a couple other major steps like the engine/trans, etc. I have a build buddy that lives close and we help each other a lot. Makes a big difference. But I also do a lot of things solo so need to be creative sometimes. The main point of my series of pictures though was to illustrate the pretty extreme angle necessary to wiggle that piece in. The OP suggested that it wouldn't fit. But it does.

[Buzzsaw]

I used my floor jack and 3 ratchet straps took about 2 hours and lots of cussing.��

[rich grsc]

That looks like a piece of cake. Try changing out one on a finished car, using the old style IRS from a T-bird. Only fits ONE WAY with about 1/8" clearance.. Fun stuff

[coyobra]

Hello all and happy thanksgiving
I’m building a mkiv with an IRS and I gather am not the first person to find the center section a challenge.
This is my first build. I have attempted to Jack it up (3.75’ 2 ton Jack) and got it up into the cage and while on my back underneath the pumpkin just can’t seem to bench press and rotate it in. I have experienced with different alignments on the way up (front end pointed up, axle holes aligned longitudinally etc) but it just seems pretty damn dangerous trying to get it in with an off center bench press balancing on the Jack platform which is the size of a deck of cards.

Has anyone tried to hoist it up with a harness and overhead hoist into the cage so that it has a safety net while being manipulated? At least that way it won’t take out a limb if it comes down in process.

I’ve read the forums and can see that folks are having success with jacks and drift punches and bench pressing. For most of you has it been primarily trial and error via this method?

Am being assisted by my capable teenage son so we have four hands.

Thank you!

I thought about how I was going to approach this the night before. Hard to remember all of the details since it was about 5 years ago. I have IRS, so not sure if this made it any easier. The pumpkin install as I remember, was one of the early projects to be completed during the build so there wasn't anything else in the way for this install. . The frame was sitting on 4 jack stands and not very high off the floor. My better half was there to assist. I lifted it on to a floor jack and we balanced it while rolling it into place. Got it to the correct angle and pumped the jack until the pumpkin was at the right height. Maneuvered it into place to get the bolt holes aligned. The only issue I had was one of the frame holes was not aligning with the pumpkin hole. Took a little wiggling but we eventually got all of the bolts in. Total time was under an hour, swearing only a once or twice.

[TXJosh]

Thank you all! We got it in using a transmission jack which provided stability and a ratchet strap which provided a little directional force to get everything in the exact right spot.

Couple follow on questions:
1. The rear bolts do not come out the other side of the differentials rear mounting ears, they are about 3/8” too short. Is this correct? Many photos on the web seem to show a similar situation.

2. Stupidly, i did not 5/8” chase out the front holes on the CS — totally missed that. And now the front bolts will not get through. Any ideas? Do i need to pull the center section and start over or has anybody heard of a different solution?

I appreciate everyone feedback above thank you very much.

[cv2065]

Good news is that you have your method to get that big chuck of iron installed. And you are correct in that the rear bolts do not come through the ears the entire way. There is over 1" of engagement inside, so plenty of support. Just ensure that they are torqued to the 100 foot/lbs when all in place.

Now the bad news. I'd say that you'll have to pull the center section back out to drill those front mounts. I don't see a way of doing it while in the frame. When you do drill them, take it real slow with a new 5/8" bit and use a little oil. Crank too hard and it will catch and tear your wrist off.

[TXJosh]

I may have just heard my son’s first four letter word (in my presence)!

Do you believe it is entire ill advised to just use a slightly smaller bolt (by an epsilon of an epsilon)?

[cc2Arider]

Hi Josh,

I'm not sure this is the reply that you'll want to hear, but you're likely going to be assembling and disassembling several subsystems in your build as you progress. My experience seems to be outside the norm, but I've only riveted the "F" panels permanently...and that was just so I could feel good about getting my front suspension "done". I test fitted pedal assembly, steering shaft, heater/defroster box...mocked up where my windshield wiper motor was going to be, etc but haven't permanently installed those yet -- too many other sub-systems to plan and coordinate...

My point being: remove it and ream out those 5/8" holes, then install it back. Good luck! :)

Craig C

[cv2065]

Do you believe it is entire ill advised to just use a slightly smaller bolt (by an epsilon of an epsilon)?

I wouldn't do that. You'll want to assemble as prescribed in the manual. Safety first!

[Buzzsaw]

I want to echo cv2065, be careful trying to ream the 5/8 hole with a hand drill. I ended up using my drill press with a little fixturing. I hope you have your floor Jack supporting your differential, I wouldn’t leave it supported by just the 14mm bolts.

[TXJosh]

I want to echo cv2065, be careful trying to ream the 5/8 hole with a hand drill. I ended up using my drill press with a little fixturing. I hope you have your floor Jack supporting your differential, I wouldn’t leave it supported by just the 14mm bolts.

Very well supported!

[edwardb]

Do you believe it is entire ill advised to just use a slightly smaller bolt (by an epsilon of an epsilon)?

Yes. Ill advised. (You asked) Beside the potentially lower strength with who knows results, the kit provided sleeves and bushings would no longer be the right size. Do whatever you have to do to fix it. If that means dropping the center section back out, so be it. Won't be the first do over. Trust me.

Slow down and study the instructions for everything. Not just this but for everything. Drilling out those bosses is very clear in the instructions. Plan ahead and mock up as much as possible. When mistakes happen (we all do it) go back and fix it right.

BTW, I concur with the cautions about a 5/8" drill and how bad it can grab and snap the drill motor. Has happened to me too. Two suggestions: First, use a step drill from both sides to get the 5/8" diameter started as much as you can with the step drill you have. If you don't have any, one of the best things you can add to your tool collection. The ones from Harbor Freight are actually pretty decent and not very expensive. Second, use a drill motor with a clutch. Set it so the clutch slips before it snaps hard enough to hurt you. Then just take in small bites until all the way through.

[Fixit]

Take a look here (https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?27544-40-Watt-Garage-amp-9365&p=333514&viewfull=1#post333514)

[TXJosh]

Thank you for all the good suggestions and advice.
Has anybody approached the 5/8” drill out with a reamer (Instead of a step bit)?

[cv2065]

Thank you for all the good suggestions and advice.
Has anybody approached the 5/8” drill out with a reamer (Instead of a step bit)?

Just buy yourself a new 5/8" cobalt drill bit and some cutting oil. Take it slow the first couple of rotations going forward and reverse until it gets past the little indentions in the iron and you are golden after that.

[cc2Arider]

Hi Josh,

I did that with a "hand reamer". You can get the part number from a picture embedded in my build thread. Search for "Angelina" :)

While it is a hand-tool, approach the task cautiously because it is quite satisfying to use -- the dimensions will be perfect before you know it!

Craig C

[Tooth]

Laid on my back and bench pressed it into place. Had one of my kids stick a drift in one of the holes and I put one in the other. It's only around 90 lbs. Most of this build has been learning new stuff and a big fun challenge, but sometimes you can just be a hardo. :cool:

[Namrups]

Thank you for all the good suggestions and advice.
Has anybody approached the 5/8” drill out with a reamer (Instead of a step bit)?

A reamer is better and will not grab as bad but they are a lot more expensive.

[ggunter]

The tapered reamer works much better than a drill and much more controllable and easier to direct in the direction you want to remove material. McMasters and Carr, MSC supply or Fastenal amongst others carry them.

[ggunter]

Here it is. Amazon $32.192739

[kurtbob]

Here it is. Amazon $32.192739

I just performed this procedure a couple days ago, and I was very concerned that I would break my wrist. Next build I will drill with a reamer.

[CraigS]

I did mine on a drill press w/ the spindle clamped in position. The advantage w/ the press is it is much easier to drill w/ a very, very slow feed so it is removing the tiniest amount of material.