the coyote continues to bite... resolved! :)

[toadster]

Having a bugger of a time with my Coyote Gen 3 crate engine (M-6007-M50C) with the Ford Performance M-6017-M50B Control Pack in my Factory Five Cobra

Lund Tuning and Ford Performance are stumped on this one, been trying to get this running properly since April

Setup is as follows - using VCM BETA Suite


Gen3 Coyote Crate engine wired as suggested by Factory Five (everyone with a Gen3 coyote uses this guide)
FPR set to 65PSI with fuel pressure regulator, and verified in VCM Suite
removed the IMRC controls on the back of the engine, locked them open with MMR lockout kit
engine fired on first try so all electricals seem to be good
flashed with Lund Base Tune that accounts for my build, e.g. MAF/intake, removed IMRC, and I have catalytic converters in my headers
the passenger side (bank1) runs great, gets up to 380F pretty quickly, bank2 (driver side) gets up to about 95F and backfires
on initial startup it seems that bank 2 fires for a rotation or two, then shuts down that bank


from Lund: its being wonky from the start. bank 1 trends richer and richer then it cycles out of cold start emissions reduction and bank 2 AFR fails goes max lean and trims on bank 2 go to 97% lean correction.
its like that side of the engine stops firing. so far off that it eventually matches the correction on the bank but AFR still pegged lean. this is really weird this is the first I've seen this.

permanent codes - I'm told they'll go away after some drive time
P0356 - Ignition Coil F Primary/Secondary Circuit (Permanent) - e.g. cylinder #6 coilpack issue
P0124 - Throttle/Pedal Position Sensor A Intermittent (Permanent) - not uncommon on these engines I've been told and should go away
P2017 - Intake Manifold Runner Position Sensor/Switch Circuit High Bank 1 (Permanent)
P2022 - Intake Manifold Runner Position Sensor/Switch Circuit High Bank 2 (Permanent)
P2008 - Intake Manifold Runner Control Circuit/Open Bank 1 (Permanent)

troubleshooting:


have swapped O2 sensors side to side, problem stays on bank2
got a new 175T harness from Ford - no difference in O2 readings
swapped coil packs side to side, problem stayed on #6
swapped plugs from #6 to others - stayed on #6
NOID light, all COPs firing
tested all (4) VTC solenoids (2 bank1, 2 bank2) and all function with 12v tests (clicking)
3 pages of testing from Ford determined something wrong with engine harness, new harness shipped last week, seemed to get bank #2 up to much hotter (untouchable) temps but on next startup back to cold bank #2 running/shutdown
checked all plugs, swapped out with new ones too - same issue


tl/dr; coyote fires up fine, shuts down bank#2 and doesn't come up to temp

seriously perplexed as to why this is happening, Lund and Ford are stumped as well... HPL file attached if anyone wants to take a peek at an idea...
hpl file: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZBlVHHU3YOn9-EFOLPXA6z6jdv5Oqklw/view?usp=share_link
in order to use the HPL file, you can use the HP Tuners VCM BETA Suite (https://hptunerscdnstorage.blob.core.windows.net/files/VCM%20Suite/VCM%20Suite%20(Beta).msi)

[Ted G]

I'm still searching the internet for you! UGH!

[edwardb]

Very sorry to see this still happening. Sure doesn't match my Coyote experience. Not that that matters a bit to you, which I understand. :mad: One question and comments from my side:

1. You said Ford replaced the "engine harness." Does that mean the physical harness on the engine? The one that comes with the crate motor itself? Not the harness that comes with the crate motor control pack, right? There was another builder a few years ago that had issues with his Gen 2 Coyote. After exhausting seemingly every possibility, Ford provided a new crate motor harness. Problem solved. That Roadster is over 10K miles the last I heard. Just another shot in the dark, but thought I'd throw it out there.

2. As for those DTC's you're getting, I've never seen the first one (P0356). It's more than a coincidence IMO that you're getting that error on the same cylinder that you're having problems with. I'm sure you (and others) have seen this same code being widely discussed on Mustang and F150 forums. So sadly doesn't seem that uncommon. I looked through a bunch of them and none listed the solution. FWIW (and again maybe you've seen this...) a good explanation of that code: "I say again - P035x codes are "ELECTRICAL" or "ELECTRONIC" in nature and not fuel/air - compression oriented. Concentrate on _HOW_ does that PCM fail to see +12 volts on the COP control wire when it want's to fire #6, or _HOW_ does it fail to see 'current draw' in that COP control circuit when the PCM grounds the COP control wire to start the firing process, or - _HOW_ does the PCM fail to see the 'reverse EMF' kick (a couple hundred volts for a couple of microseconds) when the Coil fires the plug? You may be tracking this down to a failing component in the PCM circuitry for cylinder 6 COP. Could even be intermittent and/or heat related." As I recall, Ford re-flashed your PCM. Have you tried a different one completely? Has that been offered?

I have seen the P0124 a couple of times, but haven't seen it now in 4+ years on the Coupe. A little surprised you're getting the IMRC codes. Pretty standard practice when you lock out the IMRC's as you've done to suppress these codes in the PCM calibration.

Again, I will say good luck. After all this time you need another big dose of it.

[toadster]

Very sorry to see this still happening. Sure doesn't match my Coyote experience. Not that that matters a bit to you, which I understand. :mad: One question and comments from my side:

1. You said Ford replaced the "engine harness." Does that mean the physical harness on the engine? The one that comes with the crate motor itself? Not the harness that comes with the crate motor control pack, right? There was another builder a few years ago that had issues with his Gen 2 Coyote. After exhausting seemingly every possibility, Ford provided a new crate motor harness. Problem solved. That Roadster is over 10K miles the last I heard. Just another shot in the dark, but thought I'd throw it out there.

2. As for those DTC's you're getting, I've never seen the first one (P0356). It's more than a coincidence IMO that you're getting that error on the same cylinder that you're having problems with. I'm sure you (and others) have seen this same code being widely discussed on Mustang and F150 forums. So sadly doesn't seem that uncommon. I looked through a bunch of them and none listed the solution. FWIW (and again maybe you've seen this...) a good explanation of that code: "I say again - P035x codes are "ELECTRICAL" or "ELECTRONIC" in nature and not fuel/air - compression oriented. Concentrate on _HOW_ does that PCM fail to see +12 volts on the COP control wire when it want's to fire #6, or _HOW_ does it fail to see 'current draw' in that COP control circuit when the PCM grounds the COP control wire to start the firing process, or - _HOW_ does the PCM fail to see the 'reverse EMF' kick (a couple hundred volts for a couple of microseconds) when the Coil fires the plug? You may be tracking this down to a failing component in the PCM circuitry for cylinder 6 COP. Could even be intermittent and/or heat related." As I recall, Ford re-flashed your PCM. Have you tried a different one completely? Has that been offered?

I have seen the P0124 a couple of times, but haven't seen it now in 4+ years on the Coupe. A little surprised you're getting the IMRC codes. Pretty standard practice when you lock out the IMRC's as you've done to suppress these codes in the PCM calibration.

Again, I will say good luck. After all this time you need another big dose of it.

Thanks Paul... it's been a frustrating event, crate engines should 'just work' like many have realized...

as for #1 - yes they shipped a whole new engine harness (the one that comes mounted on the engine) after 3 pages of deep dive testing on the original harness we think we found a break in a ground that would affect the whole engine

for the DTCs - P0365 could have just been thrown from one of the first starts, and had us chase down the bad COP - we swapped COPs around and tested with NOID lights, all were functional, and yes P0356 refers more to a circuit issue so we tested the harness and replaced due to the ground break item we thought we found

the IMRC codes should go away over time - they're tuned out by LUND...

I may just go and redo all my grounds, or at least re-evaluate them, all are bare-metal ground down:



PDU into the battery negative terminal
battery grounded to frame
frame is also grounded to passenger engine mount
(new ground) frame is grounded to driver engine mount
fuse panel is grounded to frame (footbox)

[kirby]

Sorry to hear you are having problems. Fuel injection and the electronics are amazing.... when they work. Two things

1. What happens if you flash the motor back to the stock tune? Does the phenomenon go away?

2. The HPL file will not let me open it. To be honest I am not sure I will be much help even if I could open it but thought you would like to know.

[toadster]

Sorry to hear you are having problems. Fuel injection and the electronics are amazing.... when they work. Two things

1. What happens if you flash the motor back to the stock tune? Does the phenomenon go away?

2. The HPL file will not let me open it. To be honest I am not sure I will be much help even if I could open it but thought you would like to know.


sadly the engine does this on the stock tune as well as the Lund Tune...

in order to use the HPL file, you can use the HP Tuners VCM BETA Suite (https://hptunerscdnstorage.blob.core.windows.net/files/VCM%20Suite/VCM%20Suite%20(Beta).msi)

[Railroad]

Do not know if this is physically possible, can you run the right side O2 harness to the left and left to right?
Is it possible to feed info into the O2 harness from regulated voltage supply. Trying to trick the computer with false input.
I do not like hearing the #6 cyl is common to issues, ie coolant getting into cyl and corrupting O2 readings.
How much trouble is a compression check and or draining coolant and running engine?

[kirby]

sadly the engine does this on the stock tune as well as the Lund Tune...

in order to use the HPL file, you can use the HP Tuners VCM BETA Suite (https://hptunerscdnstorage.blob.core.windows.net/files/VCM%20Suite/VCM%20Suite%20(Beta).msi)

Sorry to hear that. I always start simple with my testing and did not see you mention it.

For the hpl file. I should have been more specific. Google said I needed permission to get to the file. Maybe you need to make it public.

[Nigel Allen]

Has an alternate ECM been tried?

[jab351w]

Maybe a plugged cat on the misbehaving side? Unlikely since they're new, but something else to check that's not wiring/electronics.

[Al_C]

A little late to this one, and a little light on the technical know-how... I can't speak to the PCM/tune issues, but you mentioned something in the original post that caught my eye. You said the PS bank got up to 380F while the DS bank only goes to 95F. You said the DS bank seems to shut down. It sounds like you have half an engine operating.

I may be way off base here, but I'm wondering if there is a blockage internally. It seems as though your troubleshooting has been thorough, at least regarding electronics. Maybe it's not electrical/electronic. Maybe those codes are responding to the issue with the wrong conclusion? Are you getting fuel spraying on the driver side? You noted that bank 2 shuts down. Could that be because there's something in the way?

[toadster]

Maybe a plugged cat on the misbehaving side? Unlikely since they're new, but something else to check that's not wiring/electronics.

I have thought about this, I have a boroscope and I looked at it from the inside through the O2 bung, and it looks good - there is also airflow when the engine is firing, it's just not 'hot' air
I also can see 'light' through the catalytic with the boroscope - both sides are equally visible


Has an alternate ECM been tried?

that' the next step - the ECU I have now was reflashed by Ford a few months ago, but they've seen issues where even a reflashed ECU may have broken stuff inside that they don't catch


A little late to this one, and a little light on the technical know-how... I can't speak to the PCM/tune issues, but you mentioned something in the original post that caught my eye. You said the PS bank got up to 380F while the DS bank only goes to 95F. You said the DS bank seems to shut down. It sounds like you have half an engine operating.

I may be way off base here, but I'm wondering if there is a blockage internally. It seems as though your troubleshooting has been thorough, at least regarding electronics. Maybe it's not electrical/electronic. Maybe those codes are responding to the issue with the wrong conclusion? Are you getting fuel spraying on the driver side? You noted that bank 2 shuts down. Could that be because there's something in the way?

we've checked pretty much all the mechanicals, sensors, etc. The injectors are functioning, and we're getting spark.
one of the horror stories we've heard is that some crate engines were shipped with Mustang cams on one bank and F150 cams on the other bank - different firing order so it will never run right - we think we're past that point (hopefully!)

[Tooth]

Though I'm not a huge fan of the email communications with LUND, they did get me up and running. Had an issue Ford Performance didn't pick up on that they did. I'm wondering if a local tuner would be able to diagnose it with everything in front of them rather than files going back and forth. I hated the process of endless emails to LUND. In my area everyone is so busy that they want nothing to do with my crate motor.

[toadster]

Though I'm not a huge fan of the email communications with LUND, they did get me up and running. Had an issue Ford Performance didn't pick up on that they did. I'm wondering if a local tuner would be able to diagnose it with everything in front of them rather than files going back and forth. I hated the process of endless emails to LUND. In my area everyone is so busy that they want nothing to do with my crate motor.

if the new ECU doesn't work - i'll be taking the car to AED - Shaun knows these engines - pricey, but at this point - I have a pricey paperweight...

agree, the LUND email threads are tiresome... Ford is even looking at my hpl files as well, so I think everyone is praying a new ECU will remedy this... gotta love covid cutbacks on integrated circuits :mad:

[Mastertech5]

What 2 things will affect one whole bank of cylinders? A power feed wire for the injectors or the coils as I believe each coil or injector has a separate ground to the ECM for operation. Injectors clogged on one bank is the only other thing I can think of. Sometimes us technical gurus get caught up in more technical aspects of things and forget about some more basic stuff, myself included, too many times! When I would get frustrated trying to diagnose a problem such as this I would start over with the basics first before jumping in too deep. Sometimes you find something and you say on yeah, how did I miss that. Good luck!

[toadster]

What 2 things will affect one whole bank of cylinders? A power feed wire for the injectors or the coils as I believe each coil or injector has a separate ground to the ECM for operation.

yes, we did a pretty in depth test on the engine harness - the last test was to test a break to ground, all 8 cylinders failed - which was even more odd,
here's the test methodology we used from Ford: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Q4LdzP7NbVuKLAxFtXjAFzTOSFj7Ix_T3zYP6Gl1l7o/edit?usp=sharing

you'd think if all cylinders failed, nothing would fire, but Ford said maybe it wasn't fully broken but just enough to carry electrical load to 1/2 the engine

the driver side is a bit odd, the cylinders #6 and #8 are sometimes warmer than #5 and #7 - but not always... but none of the cylinders get to >= 350F like the passenger side - it's a very odd problem

[Mastertech5]

yes, we did a pretty in depth test on the engine harness - the last test was to test a break to ground, all 8 cylinders failed - which was even more odd,
you'd think if all cylinders failed, nothing would fire, but Ford said maybe it wasn't fully broken but just enough to carry electrical load to 1/2 the engine

the driver side is a bit odd, the cylinders #6 and #8 are sometimes warmer than #5 and #7 - but not always... but none of the cylinders get to >= 350F like the passenger side - it's a very odd problem

There may be more than one problem. Yes a not broken but compromised wire can't carry enough current to operate a component. Check the female connectors on the coils and injectors on those two cylinders. They may be opened up too much to make good contact on the male side. I had added more to my post after you read it.

[Mastertech5]

The comment about the wrong cam was interesting. If the truck cam has a different firing order? There are only 2 pairs of cylinders that are swapped I believe. Sometimes 2 sometimes 4. Maybe they are the 2 in question.

[toadster]

The comment about the wrong cam was interesting. If the truck cam has a different firing order? There are only 2 pairs of cylinders that are swapped I believe. Sometimes 2 sometimes 4. Maybe they are the 2 in question.

yeah, that one is terrifying to think of... you spend $9k on an engine, they test the engine on a mechanical system that tests rotation, etc. (without firing or testing electrical) and you get a dud
would require pulling the engine for sure since the driver's side head is within a 1/4" of the driver footbox, no clearance to pull the head at all

[Mastertech5]

Check compression on that whole side and compare. If those 2 are fairly lower than the others then it's a distinct possibility.

[Al_C]

I keep thinking about this problem. And I keep asking myself the same question: what changed?

If I read your initial post correctly, it seems as though the engine did start right up in it original "crate" form. Yes? If that is true, then get it back to that state and start changing things one at a time, testing after each. In my mind, that's the best way to identify the culprit. Right now, I think you have too many variables, but that's just my opinion.

[toadster]

I keep thinking about this problem. And I keep asking myself the same question: what changed?

If I read your initial post correctly, it seems as though the engine did start right up in it original "crate" form. Yes? If that is true, then get it back to that state and start changing things one at a time, testing after each. In my mind, that's the best way to identify the culprit. Right now, I think you have too many variables, but that's just my opinion.

sadly, no it's never fired properly from the start, it did start on the first try though...

[Mark Reynolds]

Definitely move your engine mount ground to the engine block, and add a ground strap from a cylinder head to the frame.

[toadster]

Definitely move your engine mount ground to the engine block, and add a ground strap from a cylinder head to the frame.

I have a ground strap on both sides into the block,
so add another ground strap from the head to the frame? both heads?
https://i.ibb.co/4jbZmBM/IMG-9742.jpg (https://ibb.co/NL06Vwp) https://i.ibb.co/FmckFP3/IMG-9741.jpg (https://ibb.co/ckRKjm3)


also, installed the new ECU, fired up great initially - temps on bank2 got up to 250-270F, we even got some oil burn-off from the headers, then it shutdown bank2 again and went back to it's usual issues
several restarts to test again, the bank2 only gets 95F, no hotter and definitely not firing again - even changed all the plugs on the driver side (bank2) and same issue

for the short time it ran 'well' it seemed that 2 of the 4 cylinders, we think #6 and #8 fired hotter than the others, hard to remember because it was just under a minute

video to see the startup, you will notice the oil burn-off around 50 seconds, then shortly thereafter shuts down bank #2 (gets quieter)

https://youtu.be/gKHxYLKjmio

[Alan_C]

Any new codes thrown by the PCM? It sounds like the PCM is going into some kind of protection mode. Hopefully there is a code stored to give you a clue. Were all codes cleared before the latest startup so that you could distinguish between anything old vs. new?

[toadster]

Any new codes thrown by the PCM? It sounds like the PCM is going into some kind of protection mode. Hopefully there is a code stored to give you a clue. Were all codes cleared before the latest startup so that you could distinguish between anything old vs. new?

had to re-up the HP Tuners access so Lund will have to setup the new VIN/ID to talk with this PCM, so I cannot log until then...

[toadster]

added a new 10GA ground to the driver side head, between a sensor mount screw into the head, and drilled into the frame and took off the powdercoat to bare metal

https://i.ibb.co/prhdLLC/image.png (https://ibb.co/QjDMKKs)

- no place to move the passenger side ground that is in the engine mount though, the driver side block ground is solid as well

still no differences in firing, will have to talk with Ford/Lund on Monday

[Al_C]

OK, so you have a new computer. ECU/PCM/whatever - we are talking about the same thing, I hope. (not trying to be annoying, just want to ensure we're all clear.) What was the programming on the new unit? Stock or Lund?

Here's where I'm going with this: if it is stock, and the DS bank shuts down, there has got to be a mechanical reason for that. I do not believe (and I may well be in the minority, or flat out wrong) that this is an electrical/electronic problem. I keep thinking fuel, but you don't seem to be getting lean codes. It started out OK, i.e. started and ran as you indicated, so that tells me the electrical stuff is OK. It would tend to tell me fuel, because it would take a few rpms for the fuel problem (i.e. a blockage) to come into play.

I try to stick to fundamentals. It is either fuel or spark. Or compression. If compression is bad on a brand new engine, you need to send it back. Or it's the the cam, most likely. You've done your homework on the electrical - it certainly seems like that part of it is covered. Maybe the tune, but you had similar issues, apparently, with the factory tune.

Please prove me wrong, but I gotta believe this is a fuel problem. Or the wrong cam, but you'd probably have a damaged piston by now.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Spitballing, but I am wondering if a problem with the solenoid or controls for the variable valve timing for the bank in question could be at play here???

Jeff

[Nigel Allen]

Al_C Brings up a salient point. It certainly could be a fuel flow issue. Fuel flows in from the driver side fuel rail, then flows through a cross pipe, to the the passenger side fuel rail. If there is a sufficient restriction preventing fuel flowing freely to the passenger side, there would be a pressure drop once the injectors start opening. I.E. The fuel pressure builds up in the passenger side rail when the fuel pump is running and the engine is not yet started. This is possible because it is a non-return system.

For readers that are unsure of this concept, You can carry out the following experiment:
1. get your garden hose and put a kink in it , near the start, that restricts flow to a trickle.
2. Put your thumb over the end of the hose and you will feel the pressure build up until it reaches full pressure.
3. Release your thumb off the end of the hose, there will be a short high flow of water, but then it will reduce to a low pressure trickle.

I have watched your most recent video and the engine does seem to run like a coyote should on initial startup. That makes me think there isn't major internal issues.
A possible way to test this this hypothesis, without pulling things apart (which I'm sure you don't want to do as you are in the middle of a warranty claim process) is to:
1. run the fuel pump continuously.
2. Try starting the engine and see if it fires on all cylinders each time.
If the engine does fire correctly each time, then I guess there is a possibility that there is a manufacturing defect with the fuel rail or some sort of partial blockage between the left and right hand rails preventing sufficient flow.

Disclaimer: I have a gen1 engine without the direct injection fuel system. I am not sure if both fuel systems are operational at idle, or on start-up. So my experiment above might be useless.

A number of years ago I had exactly the same issue with a ~ 2,000 horsepower Detroit 2 stroke diesel generator. On full load it would run normally for a few minutes and then the horsepower would taper off to zero (This generator was running in parallel with three others). The generator would then enter into a reverse power condition which is a major issue. Fortunately, the automation system would shut the generator down at this stage. There was much head scratching and quite a number of people took a look at it. The mechanics said it was electrical and the sparkies said is was a mechanical issue and both teams walked away. I engaged a old school diesel guy to assist, and we fitted pressure gauges to the fuel rail. In the end we found the issue was a coarse fuel strainer in the diesel tank. It was clogged with rust and scale. However when the set shut down there was enough of a back-flow 'pulse' to push some of this scale off of the strainer. That way the next time we started up the set, it ran OK until we applied full load and there was a high flow resulting in a large pressure drop across the strainer.


I really hope you find the answer soon. It certainly looks like electrical is ruled out now.

Best of luck,

Nige

[Nigel Allen]

Spitballing, but I am wondering if a problem with the solenoid or controls for the variable valve timing for the bank in question could be at play here???

Jeff

Hey Jeff, that's really good point. I don't know VVT systems well, so only having a guess here. If the VVT was out of kilter, would the engine still run on that bank, albeit not well? Unless, of course the feedback from the VVT position sensor causes a shutdown condition?

Cheers,

Nige

[Nigel Allen]

added a new 10GA ground to the driver side head, between a sensor mount screw into the head, and drilled into the frame and took off the powdercoat to bare metal

https://i.ibb.co/prhdLLC/image.png (https://ibb.co/QjDMKKs)

- no place to move the passenger side ground that is in the engine mount though, the driver side block ground is solid as well

still no differences in firing, will have to talk with Ford/Lund on Monday

All engine grounds should have the ability to carry the starter motor current (which is the highest current likely to flow) If your main ground is disconnected, becomes resistive due to corrosion, or fails, full starting current (I measured ~150 amps on my Coyote) will flow through this wire and likely turn it into smoke.

Cheers,

Nige

[Alan_C]

I would think that if the PCM has detected a fault, it will post a code for diagnostics. I like the idea that there could be a fuel starvation issue with the affected bank. That makes the most sense and could explain why there have been brief signs of life. Given all the effort that has been applied so far, it would be worth it to remove the fuel rail, injectors, and clean everything thoroughly.

[michael everson]

Since it’s the driver side having issues, I doubt it’s a blockage. Fuel comes in on the driver side.
Mike

[Nigel Allen]

Since it’s the driver side having issues, I doubt it’s a blockage. Fuel comes in on the driver side.
Mike

Oh, whoops. I had my sides mixed up!

Nige

[Al_C]

Since we're all grasping at straws (or so it would seem), how about this: disconnect the fuel line from the fuel rail. Fabricate some sort of way to hook up a shop vac to the fuel rail. Better yet, while doing that, put some sort of filter screen (cheesecloth, etc.) prior to the vacuum and let her rip. It would be interesting to see if you catch any junk coming out of the fuel rail. Yes, even in my Gen II, the fuel does go in on the DS. However, at some point, there is a split and it gets dispersed on both sides. If you were to try to blow it out with compressed air, it would only clog an injector if there's something there. If you vacuum it, you might get it out.

The other side of this experiment is that you can find nothing and say to me "I told you so". That's fine, I just want to eliminate the possibility of a fuel issue and get your problem solved.

[Nigel Allen]

Since we're all grasping at straws (or so it would seem), how about this: disconnect the fuel line from the fuel rail. Fabricate some sort of way to hook up a shop vac to the fuel rail. Better yet, while doing that, put some sort of filter screen (cheesecloth, etc.) prior to the vacuum and let her rip. It would be interesting to see if you catch any junk coming out of the fuel rail. Yes, even in my Gen II, the fuel does go in on the DS. However, at some point, there is a split and it gets dispersed on both sides. If you were to try to blow it out with compressed air, it would only clog an injector if there's something there. If you vacuum it, you might get it out.

The other side of this experiment is that you can find nothing and say to me "I told you so". That's fine, I just want to eliminate the possibility of a fuel issue and get your problem solved.

DEFINITELY DO NOT USE A VACUUM CLEANER NEAR FUEL.
the brushes on the vacuum motor create sparks and will ignite the fuel/air mix being drawn across the motor. (The air flows over the motor to keep it cool, as it exhausts the vacuum cleaner. That is why the exhaust air is quite warm)

I grew in a coastal country town. 2 fellas got their picture on the front cover of the local paper.
They bought an old boat together. There was a lot of rust in the fuel tank, so they drained it over a few beers and grabbed the wife's vacuum cleaner to suck out the the rust. It resulted in an almighty kaboom as the vacuum exploded into thousands of shards. Luckily only a few cuts from shrapnel.
On the funny side, the dust filled contents of the vacuum cleaner bag blasted themselves all over the guys and they came staggering out of the shed looking like something from a daffy duck dynamite gag. fkn hilarious.

Cheers,

Nige

[J R Jones]

Nige, I worked in fire protection and "special hazards" for a couple of years. The tragedies I was exposed too.... even fuel-wet rags are hazardous.
OTOH my septic tank service vacuums our effluent (and methane) with a hydraulically driven centrifugal pump that develops frightening levels of suction. That itself is a hazard.
Piston pumps are the ultimate in pumping force and indeed they lift wet concrete to the top of sky scraper construction.
jim

[toadster]

All engine grounds should have the ability to carry the starter motor current (which is the highest current likely to flow) If your main ground is disconnected, becomes resistive due to corrosion, or fails, full starting current (I measured ~150 amps on my Coyote) will flow through this wire and likely turn it into smoke.

Cheers,

Nige

good call Nige - I was reading grounding rules and minimum 14GA to BODY, not frame, so I'll at least up the ground to that size.
Currently, there's the FFR ground 2GA with a ground strap (connected to the engine mount) on passenger side, and a ground strap on driver side (into the block) - from the pics above

the smaller 10GA wire is connected currently to the rear of the drivers side head and into the frame
I found another location that I can add another ground to frame on the passenger side at the front of the head - starting to feel like Medusa herself is entering the engine bay... may hook that one up as well.



Spitballing, but I am wondering if a problem with the solenoid or controls for the variable valve timing for the bank in question could be at play here???

Jeff

yes, starting to think this is electro-mechanical - my son and I tested the VVT (variable valve timing) solenoids and the CPS (cam position sensor) - they all respond to 12v testing with activation (clicking)
it feels like it could be temp related, once the engine gets warm the driver side will fire for a revolution or two (at least we think it's firing because it's noticeably louder) then goes quiet

we've tested all these on the driver side, all seem to respond well

Orange: Cam Position Sensor (12v+ testing) engine off
Blue: Coil on Plug (NOID light) - engine running
Yellow: VCT (12v+ testing) - engine off
Green: Fuel Injector (NOID light) - engine running

we've unplugged the VCTs and CamPS and started the engine, and the software sees them as failed or unplugged

https://i.ibb.co/mRMGQmF/coyote-wiring.png (https://ibb.co/4F57Bcg)

[Al_C]

DEFINITELY DO NOT USE A VACUUM CLEANER NEAR FUEL.
the brushes on the vacuum motor create sparks and will ignite the fuel/air mix being drawn across the motor. (The air flows over the motor to keep it cool, as it exhausts the vacuum cleaner. That is why the exhaust air is quite warm)

I grew in a coastal country town. 2 fellas got their picture on the front cover of the local paper.
They bought an old boat together. There was a lot of rust in the fuel tank, so they drained it over a few beers and grabbed the wife's vacuum cleaner to suck out the the rust. It resulted in an almighty kaboom as the vacuum exploded into thousands of shards. Luckily only a few cuts from shrapnel.
On the funny side, the dust filled contents of the vacuum cleaner bag blasted themselves all over the guys and they came staggering out of the shed looking like something from a daffy duck dynamite gag. fkn hilarious.

Cheers,

Nige

OK, got me there. My bad. I guess I didn't think that one through. I'd still like to evacuate the fuel rail to ensure there's no blockage, but I stand corrected on the vacuum.

[Jryasko]

Sorry to hear all your problems with the Coyote. I have a Gen 3 which we did an HP tune on the dyno. It has a couple funny things go on once in a while. Did you take it to the guy you referenced on your post from 10/26 ? Don't want to add to the confusion, but after working on heavy equipment all my life and especially the later machines with electronics I found many times the old adage K.I.S.S. keep it simple stupid. You get so many things going you have to go back to square 1 start there and eliminate as you go. I'm curious if your tuner guy was any help before I say any more.

[J R Jones]

OK, got me there. My bad. I guess I didn't think that one through. I'd still like to evacuate the fuel rail to ensure there's no blockage, but I stand corrected on the vacuum.

I was thinking about this factor earlier and failed to mention that most often the smallest crossection will clog most readilly, like the injector orfice.
Facing a similar SBC challenge I plumbed the injectors out of the engine to witness fuel spray. Yeah that can be dangerous too. In that case one or two injectors sprayed properly but 6, 7 and 8 simultaniously only dribbled.
In the case of VVT one might assume failure goes to default, or low speed, but not high RPM position. It should still idle normally.
jim

[Railroad]

Can you remove the temp sensor and keep it from reading the engine is warm, closed loop?
If it tells the ECU the engine is cold, maybe it will keep running open loop and run good.
This should give some kind of path to pursue.

[jamminj]

i think railroads has a good idea it certainly wouldn't hurt.

[toadster]

Can you remove the temp sensor and keep it from reading the engine is warm, closed loop?
If it tells the ECU the engine is cold, maybe it will keep running open loop and run good.
This should give some kind of path to pursue.

that's an interesting test for sure, we're grasping at straws about it being a 'temp' thing - the engine surely doesn't come up to temp in under a minute, but the head/plugs/coils can warm up pretty quickly (anything near the combustion chamber)

just tested a cold start today, the car has sat for 2 days (was travelling this weekend) and fired up cold on the driver side - so it's not a water-temp issue, but something (who knows what) will let the engine fire up on both banks 'sometimes' - problem is we cannot determine yet what is causing that. maybe I'll try disconnecting the battery for 30 minutes to see if something is stored in the system to clear it out



I was thinking about this factor earlier and failed to mention that most often the smallest crossection will clog most readilly, like the injector orfice.
Facing a similar SBC challenge I plumbed the injectors out of the engine to witness fuel spray. Yeah that can be dangerous too. In that case one or two injectors sprayed properly but 6, 7 and 8 simultaniously only dribbled.
In the case of VVT one might assume failure goes to default, or low speed, but not high RPM position. It should still idle normally.
jim

definitely haven't done any flow testing on the injectors - the injector electrics do show that they're 'firing' with a noid light, but that's just showing circuit flow, not fuel flow


Sorry to hear all your problems with the Coyote. I have a Gen 3 which we did an HP tune on the dyno. It has a couple funny things go on once in a while. Did you take it to the guy you referenced on your post from 10/26 ? Don't want to add to the confusion, but after working on heavy equipment all my life and especially the later machines with electronics I found many times the old adage K.I.S.S. keep it simple stupid. You get so many things going you have to go back to square 1 start there and eliminate as you go. I'm curious if your tuner guy was any help before I say any more.

I haven't taken it to Shaun at AED yet, Ford called me today and trying to figure out some next steps. I agree, KISS is the model to go at this point. I have a new LUND tune but won't install it as I need to keep things as 'basic' as possible...

I did pull the DTCs today and got the expected

P2008 Intake Manifold Runner Control Circuit/Open
P2017 Intake Manifold Runner Position Sensor/Switch Circuit High
P2022 Intake Manifold Runner Position Sensor/Switch Circuit High


curious why I don't get a P2011 Intake Manifold Runner Control Circuit/Open ??

https://i.ibb.co/PDgCmqk/image-1.png (https://ibb.co/7kKyYsh)

Ford wants to ask LUND to record every possible variable they can in HP tuner. It would be good to see injector duty cycle & the O2 signals along with whatever codes it’s reporting.

this means I'll have to flash the ECU

edit - I can log without the Lund Tune - sent off to Ford and Lund with a ton of data

[toadster]

from Lund:

:( The issue is present on the stock tune as well. afr bank2 pegged max lean reading on AFR.
log is only showing codes related to the IMRC stuff.
But it is clearly still having some sort of an issue with the o2 circuit.
I hate chasing wires but may need to be done on this. Sorry for the delay we are at an event this week



I'm stumped, we've replaced the engine harness, o2 harness, bank2 plugs, and bank2 o2 sensor - not sure what else would make the bank2 peg max lean... bad injectors? bad MAF? no codes other than the remove IMRCs (which is expected)

[JohnK]

Hey Todd. So sorry to hear that you're still dealing with this. What a bummer. I have nothing of any real value to offer, other than one suggestion which sounds absurdly simple but hey, sometimes it's that stuff that's so simple that we overlook. Have you checked all the pins on those two big connectors that plug into the ECU? I'd check for loose/bent/corroded pins and also check in the female ends with a flashlight and magnifying glass to see if there's any debris in there that might be preventing good contact. Just grasping at straws, but it's always the ridiculously simple things like that that bite me in the butt.

[toadster]

Hey Todd. So sorry to hear that you're still dealing with this. What a bummer. I have nothing of any real value to offer, other than one suggestion which sounds absurdly simple but hey, sometimes it's that stuff that's so simple that we overlook. Have you checked all the pins on those two big connectors that plug into the ECU? I'd check for loose/bent/corroded pins and also check in the female ends with a flashlight and magnifying glass to see if there's any debris in there that might be preventing good contact. Just grasping at straws, but it's always the ridiculously simple things like that that bite me in the butt.

yeah, I can check the new ECU, but the original one had all good pins - will verify the pins again...

Lund even recommended this... (reading a log from the stock Ford tune)
MAF and rest of the logs all look to be fine. I don't have Hz in this log but # per min is reading fine so that looks fine. just the AFR reading on bank 2 o2 sensor.
I would check for continuity on all the pins for the o2 sensor on the engine harness side next.

IMHO it has to be something absurdly stupid simple at this point that we're overlooking, or worst case something mechanical that isn't visible

[Railroad]

Would you be able to hear an exhaust leak. If one exist upstream of the O2 sensor it can corrupt the reading.

[Alan_C]

OK, so not the engine harness nor PCM as they have been replaced. One can suggest the problem has to be from the PCM on to isolate the one bank.
So to me, stop looking at the electrical. I would plug the fuel rail and check for obstructions. Next I would pull the intake and check for obstructions and operation of the CMCV vanes.
You only need spark, air, and fuel. I think you have spark covered. Time to confirm air and fuel are getting to the cylinders on the offending bank.

[toadster]

Would you be able to hear an exhaust leak. If one exist upstream of the O2 sensor it can corrupt the reading.

will double check the bolts, may have worked loose


OK, so not the engine harness nor PCM as they have been replaced. One can suggest the problem has to be from the PCM on to isolate the one bank.
So to me, stop looking at the electrical. I would plug the fuel rail and check for obstructions. Next I would pull the intake and check for obstructions and operation of the CMCV vanes.
You only need spark, air, and fuel. I think you have spark covered. Time to confirm air and fuel are getting to the cylinders on the offending bank.

what still has me on the electrical path is that bank two is running fully lean, according to the logs, even though we’ve replaced the transmission harness which has the O2 sensors built-in. We’ve tested both sets and I’ve swapped out the O2 sensor as well. Think the log wouldn’t lie showing that it’s always pegged lean on B2

[Alan_C]

what still has me on the electrical path is that bank two is running fully lean, according to the logs, even though we’ve replaced the transmission harness which has the O2 sensors built-in. We’ve tested both sets and I’ve swapped out the O2 sensor as well. Think the log wouldn’t lie showing that it’s always pegged lean on B2
Lean condition could be the result of poor flow to the injectors on B2.
I will take your bet on electrical and go with a blockage in the fuel rail. The fuel rails and injectors are not that difficult to remove and inspect. What could it hurt to rule in/out one more thing?

[Al_C]

In a way, I'm happy to hear you mention that Bank 2 is running lean. That bolsters my thinking that this is a fuel blockage. I had a lean condition on my Gen II last year, but my problem was the fuel pump. The tip off for me was I had low fuel pressure. You reported you had 65 lbs at the regulator, so that tells me the pump is fine. Nevertheless, you still have a lean condition which means you aren't getting gas. And it only seems to apply to Bank 2 (DS). So something is preventing fuel from getting to those cylinders, and the only good news in this is that it appears the PCM is smart enough to shut down the entire bank before you damage something by running lean. I never heard of a PCM doing that, but it kind of makes sense. It would have to be *really* lean for that to happen. Mine still ran.

The problem I see is that the 65 lbs of pressure is pushing that blockage further into the rail. I haven't pulled one apart, so I can't speak authoritatively, but at some point that fuel delivery system is going to split for bank 1 and bank 2. If I were a betting man, I'd put money that there's a blockage right about where that split occurs. (It's similar to blockages in coronary arteries, and I have a LOT of experience with those)

I understand why you focused on electrical, because you had a lot invested in that angle and a lot of people helping in that direction. I hate to think about how many rabbit holes I've gone down on my own car only to have my head handed to me with a simple cause completely different from what I expected. If you can find a way to suck everything out of the fuel rail - without using a shop vac! - I'd give it a whirl. It may need to be something with a good amount of "pull", given that it's been pushed in at 65 pounds per square inch. I hope this helps. I'd like to see you get this fixed easily.

[kirby]

In a way, I'm happy to hear you mention that Bank 2 is running lean. That bolsters my thinking that this is a fuel blockage. I had a lean condition on my Gen II last year, but my problem was the fuel pump. The tip off for me was I had low fuel pressure. You reported you had 65 lbs at the regulator, so that tells me the pump is fine. Nevertheless, you still have a lean condition which means you aren't getting gas. And it only seems to apply to Bank 2 (DS). So something is preventing fuel from getting to those cylinders, and the only good news in this is that it appears the PCM is smart enough to shut down the entire bank before you damage something by running lean. I never heard of a PCM doing that, but it kind of makes sense. It would have to be *really* lean for that to happen. Mine still ran.

The problem I see is that the 65 lbs of pressure is pushing that blockage further into the rail. I haven't pulled one apart, so I can't speak authoritatively, but at some point that fuel delivery system is going to split for bank 1 and bank 2. If I were a betting man, I'd put money that there's a blockage right about where that split occurs. (It's similar to blockages in coronary arteries, and I have a LOT of experience with those)

I understand why you focused on electrical, because you had a lot invested in that angle and a lot of people helping in that direction. I hate to think about how many rabbit holes I've gone down on my own car only to have my head handed to me with a simple cause completely different from what I expected. If you can find a way to suck everything out of the fuel rail - without using a shop vac! - I'd give it a whirl. It may need to be something with a good amount of "pull", given that it's been pushed in at 65 pounds per square inch. I hope this helps. I'd like to see you get this fixed easily.

I like this line of thinking. It might make sense as to why it fires on that side as well at start up. There may be enough leaking by to start the motor but it quickly runs out of fuel.

[Mastertech5]

There is a way to test if injectors are spraying compared to the others of an engine but it requires a scan tool that can pulse each one while a fuel pressure gauge is attached to the rail. It can pulse each injector for about 3-5 seconds then you record the pressure drop of each injector to the others. You energize the fuel pump to max pressure and then shut it off, pulse the injector and then repeat for each one. There may be a stand alone tool to pulse each injector by plugging a connector onto them one at a time. They should all read about the same pressure drop. Do not perform this more than twice on each injector before starting the engine or you'll load up the cylinders with gas. Once is better. Less pressure drop, less flow.

[Jryasko]

1 other suggestion no on else has put here. When I initially had issues trying to get the Tune done on my Gen 3, I started calling an emailing Ford experts. Found Brenspeed near Ft Wayne Ind. Tech guy was very helpful on the phone. And his suggestion if I still had issues was to contact Livernois Motorsports in Dearborn MI. His quote to me on that was "Livernois Has All The Magic" they are near Ford and work closely with them according to the Tech at Brenspeed. Checking that wiring is painstaking but probably worth it at this point to. Good Luck

[toadster]

All engine grounds should have the ability to carry the starter motor current (which is the highest current likely to flow) If your main ground is disconnected, becomes resistive due to corrosion, or fails, full starting current (I measured ~150 amps on my Coyote) will flow through this wire and likely turn it into smoke.

Cheers,

Nige

had some time to redo the ground, just to quell the 'not enough grounds' issue - this one is on the rear of the driver head into the frame, also added another ground on the passenger side head into the frame as well

https://i.ibb.co/HD367MF/image.png (https://ibb.co/bgDT1yW)
https://i.ibb.co/TrJSZSQ/image.png (https://ibb.co/jHq2d2C) https://i.ibb.co/1sHNz8Y/image.png (https://ibb.co/28XrZg0)

still no difference in the engine run state, travelling this week, may take it up to AED for Shaun to troubleshoot...

[edwardb]

I've mostly stayed out of this because fortunately I've not had anything remotely similar with the two Coyote builds I've done. But after all the updates, part changes, tuning responses, etc. I'm left with these two questions.

1. I asked previously about the Ford Performance control pack harness. Not the harness on the engine itself but the one that Ford Performance provides with the control pack that hooks everything up. Has this been replaced? As I said before, another build buddy chased Gen 2 Coyote issues for an extended period of time and that solved the problem.

2. At what point does Ford warranty the engine itself? Has this been discussed? One of the reasons we pony up for these engines is to get a factory warranty. When everything else fails, maybe there's something wrong with your engine. Whether an assembly error, a defective internal part, whatever. It's strange (to me anyway) that the symptoms you're having aren't reflected in ODB trouble codes. That alone suggests there something basically wrong that programming didn't account for. I'd bet that within the engine engineering group at Ford someone could figure this out. But obviously that hasn't happened yet and seems a pretty good chance could involve a major teardown. Not something you should have to do. These engines are complex. I know swapping the engine would be a huge pain. But without a solution after everything else, seems like the next step. If you drove your Mustang into a dealer with these kinds of issues, and had this amount of troubleshooting, pretty sure they'd just swap out the engine. You've been working with Lund and they appear to be stumped. I've heard Shaun at AED is really good (I haven't worked with him...) but since the problem happens on the stock tune and the custom tune, not sure what more custom programming is going to accomplish. Plus shouldn't be an issue for Ford to take responsibility and not blame custom programing. Note I said "shouldn't..." :p

[mkassab]

I have a ground strap on both sides into the block,
so add another ground strap from the head to the frame? both heads?
https://i.ibb.co/4jbZmBM/IMG-9742.jpg (https://ibb.co/NL06Vwp) https://i.ibb.co/FmckFP3/IMG-9741.jpg (https://ibb.co/ckRKjm3)


also, installed the new ECU, fired up great initially - temps on bank2 got up to 250-270F, we even got some oil burn-off from the headers, then it shutdown bank2 again and went back to it's usual issues
several restarts to test again, the bank2 only gets 95F, no hotter and definitely not firing again - even changed all the plugs on the driver side (bank2) and same issue

for the short time it ran 'well' it seemed that 2 of the 4 cylinders, we think #6 and #8 fired hotter than the others, hard to remember because it was just under a minute

video to see the startup, you will notice the oil burn-off around 50 seconds, then shortly thereafter shuts down bank #2 (gets quieter)

https://youtu.be/gKHxYLKjmio

Try Ground straps directly to the heads vs the block. The easy way I do it is.... ground strap from one head to the other head and then from one of those heads to the frame and/or battery. It's easy to try it.

Mark

[toadster]

Try Ground straps directly to the heads vs the block. The easy way I do it is.... ground strap from one head to the other head and then from one of those heads to the frame and/or battery. It's easy to try it.

Mark

I guess I could try this, need to find another spot to attach a bolt on the heads


really tight on the driver side
lack of mount points - pretty much everything is used up


any recommended spots to mount between heads? I'm up for anything at this point to get it running...

[mkassab]

I guess I could try this, need to find another spot to attach a bolt on the heads


really tight on the driver side
lack of mount points - pretty much everything is used up


any recommended spots to mount between heads? I'm up for anything at this point to get it running...

I'd try the front of the heads.... use an existing bolt, e.g., where other items are mounted to, e.g., alternator bracket, timing chain cover, header bolt... etc.

For a very easy "test".... just use jumper cables.... head to head the Head to Neg Battery Terminal. Also, Use an Ohm meter from the head to the neg battery terminal to check if you have a clean connection.

Mark

[JohnK]

By my count, you have (at least) three grounds already from the engine to the frame. Assuming they're all clean and tight, that's more than enough grounds. I think we can rule out engine grounding as the cause of the problem.

[toadster]

By my count, you have (at least) three grounds already from the engine to the frame. Assuming they're all clean and tight, that's more than enough grounds. I think we can rule out engine grounding as the cause of the problem.

agreed - 4 grounds to frame, all retested this past weekend


one 2GA wire from battery to engine mount

one strap from engine mount to driver side block/engine mount


one ground strap from passenger side of block into frame
one ground wire from rear driver head to frame
one ground wire from front passenger head to frame

[Jeff Kleiner]

By my count, you have (at least) three grounds already from the engine to the frame. Assuming they're all clean and tight, that's more than enough grounds. I think we can rule out engine grounding as the cause of the problem.

I agree. If your grounds were weak it would more likely show up when starting.

Jeff

[Mastertech5]

The more complicated things are made the more things that can go wrong. KISS as my father used to say. Sorry your having such problems and I hope things are worked out soon for you. My LS runs great. I've run out of suggestions for you and there are a host of great guys here that have made other great suggestions. I'll be checking back to see how you're doing. Good luck!

[92sho16]

I think you should really pull the fuel injectors on that side of the motor and inspect for debris, depending on how you constructed you fuel lines you may have introduced debris. Since you have replaced the ECM and harness at this point I don't think the problem could be electrical, especially with the way the ST fuel trim flips like a light switch.

[Tooth]

Every time I see this post bumped, I'm praying you figured it out.

[edwardb]

I've mostly stayed out of this because fortunately I've not had anything remotely similar with the two Coyote builds I've done. But after all the updates, part changes, tuning responses, etc. I'm left with these two questions.

1. I asked previously about the Ford Performance control pack harness. Not the harness on the engine itself but the one that Ford Performance provides with the control pack that hooks everything up. Has this been replaced? As I said before, another build buddy chased Gen 2 Coyote issues for an extended period of time and that solved the problem.

2. At what point does Ford warranty the engine itself? Has this been discussed? One of the reasons we pony up for these engines is to get a factory warranty. When everything else fails, maybe there's something wrong with your engine. Whether an assembly error, a defective internal part, whatever. It's strange (to me anyway) that the symptoms you're having aren't reflected in ODB trouble codes. That alone suggests there something basically wrong that programming didn't account for. I'd bet that within the engine engineering group at Ford someone could figure this out. But obviously that hasn't happened yet and seems a pretty good chance could involve a major teardown. Not something you should have to do. These engines are complex. I know swapping the engine would be a huge pain. But without a solution after everything else, seems like the next step. If you drove your Mustang into a dealer with these kinds of issues, and had this amount of troubleshooting, pretty sure they'd just swap out the engine. You've been working with Lund and they appear to be stumped. I've heard Shaun at AED is really good (I haven't worked with him...) but since the problem happens on the stock tune and the custom tune, not sure what more custom programming is going to accomplish. Plus shouldn't be an issue for Ford to take responsibility and not blame custom programing. Note I said "shouldn't..." :p

These are pretty important questions. At least IMO. :p Response?

[toadster]

These are pretty important questions. At least IMO. :p Response?

Hi Paul - sorry been travelling this week... great questions!

1. I asked previously about the Ford Performance control pack harness. Not the harness on the engine itself but the one that Ford Performance provides with the control pack that hooks everything up. Has this been replaced? As I said before, another build buddy chased Gen 2 Coyote issues for an extended period of time and that solved the problem.


The only harness we haven't replaced yet is the control pack harness that feeds into the PDU and dash
we replaced the following:



[*=1]transmission harness (part C175T), which has the O2 wiring (90 pin lower plug, as mounted in the chassis)
[*=1]engine harness (part which is the 126 pin center plug

[*=1]PCM (ECU) with base Ford flashed tune for the crate engine

[*=1]I purchased another MOTORCRAFT DY1442 O2 plug to ensure we didn't have a bad sensor



Ford hasn't mentioned the PDU harness, but I can ask - of course they're closed today for the Veteran's Day holiday but Ken @ Ford is checking for my emails - they really are trying IMHO


2. At what point does Ford warranty the engine itself? Has this been discussed?

We've discussed it for sure, holding this as the last resort for obvious reasons: cost, complexity, etc.

One of the reasons we pony up for these engines is to get a factory warranty. When everything else fails, maybe there's something wrong with your engine. Whether an assembly error, a defective internal part, whatever. It's strange (to me anyway) that the symptoms you're having aren't reflected in ODB trouble codes. That alone suggests there something basically wrong that programming didn't account for. I'd bet that within the engine engineering group at Ford someone could figure this out. But obviously that hasn't happened yet and seems a pretty good chance could involve a major teardown. Not something you should have to do. These engines are complex. I know swapping the engine would be a huge pain. But without a solution after everything else, seems like the next step. If you drove your Mustang into a dealer with these kinds of issues, and had this amount of troubleshooting, pretty sure they'd just swap out the engine. You've been working with Lund and they appear to be stumped. I've heard Shaun at AED is really good (I haven't worked with him...) but since the problem happens on the stock tune and the custom tune, not sure what more custom programming is going to accomplish. Plus shouldn't be an issue for Ford to take responsibility and not blame custom programing. Note I said "shouldn't..." :p


agreed on the programming, I haven't applied the LUND tune on the new ECU to keep any excess variables out of the mix.
I may take to AED as he's done tons of work on the Coyote engines, if it ends up being a hardware issue then I'm asking Ford to foot that bill, and replace the engine but if by some chance Shaun can find something else, then I'd be on the hook for that

at this point, everything leads to O2 running full lean on bank2, we've tried two O2 harnesses, different O2 sensors, 2 different ECUs, base tune, LUND Tune, it keeps coming back to bank2 running max lean

Ford has asked for a log with both O2 sensors unplugged, I guided my son on logging while I was travelling but of course the OBD2 didn't capture the cold start and only started working about a minute later when he re-connected the logging tool - finicky OBD2 software to blame...

hopefully get a good cold start log today - once the neighborhood wakes up :)

[Railroad]

I apologize if I missed this, but did you ever try clearing the fuel rail?
Logic applies as someone previously suggested on line blockage. A partial blockage would allow the engine to run on fuel pressure that has seeped past any blockage, but becomes lean as the blockage does not allow for sufficient flow to maintain proper a/f ratio.
I have not looked at my Gen 1 fuel rail, but they are usually external bolt on. I would think, at this point, it would be time well spent to remove and blow out with compressed air.
No bashing intended, just want to see you get this resolved.
Good luck,

[Jeff Kleiner]

Have you tried it with the O2 sensors unplugged? Yes it will throw codes but will run in an open loop default mode meaning that the ECU won't try to correct a lean or rich condition.

Jeff

[Its Bruce]

Can you post a log here so those of us with HPT can see it?

From a mechanical standpoint, I agree with ensuring injector flow, glaring vacuum leaks, etc.

[toadster]

Have you tried it with the O2 sensors unplugged? Yes it will throw codes but will run in an open loop default mode meaning that the ECU won't try to correct a lean or rich condition.

Jeff

yes - logged this https://drive.google.com/file/d/1YvpnT3AilIDBrU8bMFgDyCTbGOrKLB5Q/view?usp=sharing


I apologize if I missed this, but did you ever try clearing the fuel rail?
Logic applies as someone previously suggested on line blockage. A partial blockage would allow the engine to run on fuel pressure that has seeped past any blockage, but becomes lean as the blockage does not allow for sufficient flow to maintain proper a/f ratio.
I have not looked at my Gen 1 fuel rail, but they are usually external bolt on. I would think, at this point, it would be time well spent to remove and blow out with compressed air.
No bashing intended, just want to see you get this resolved.
Good luck,

I haven't pulled the fuel rail yet, need to bleed off some pressure first... agreed, this is at least worth eyeballing and testing with compressed air


Can you post a log here so those of us with HPT can see it?

From a mechanical standpoint, I agree with ensuring injector flow, glaring vacuum leaks, etc.

log linked above, should be available to download
exhaust is tight on both banks, no exhaust leaks, all vacuum ports are either plugged or routed to things like vacuum assist brakes

[Alan_C]

Looking forward to hearing what you find when you pull the fuel rail and check for debris. Electrical problems rarely come and go, mechanical issues seem like the better bet. At some point, I think you are going to need to pull the valve cover on the offending bank just to take a look. I keep wondering if the phasors or timing on that bank could be off too.
With the Gen 3, you have both port and direct injection, so two sources of fuel to the cylinders and more complexity.
Good luck, although I have a Gen 2 from a donor, I really want to know what the failure mode is here.

[toadster]

pulled and cleaned the fuel rail... no change :(


https://youtu.be/JEIEP2mf-s4

https://i.ibb.co/1XysQjP/IMG-9926.jpg (https://ibb.co/1XysQjP) https://i.ibb.co/vQTYBRq/IMG-9927.jpg (https://ibb.co/vQTYBRq) https://i.ibb.co/Yh9vxH3/IMG-9928.jpg (https://ibb.co/Yh9vxH3) https://i.ibb.co/L84513t/IMG-9929.jpg (https://ibb.co/L84513t)


Looking forward to hearing what you find when you pull the fuel rail and check for debris. Electrical problems rarely come and go, mechanical issues seem like the better bet. At some point, I think you are going to need to pull the valve cover on the offending bank just to take a look. I keep wondering if the phasors or timing on that bank could be off too.
With the Gen 3, you have both port and direct injection, so two sources of fuel to the cylinders and more complexity.
Good luck, although I have a Gen 2 from a donor, I really want to know what the failure mode is here.

pretty sure to pull the valve cover on the driver side will mean pulling the engine,
in the pic below, I put an LED under the driver side head to show the spacing, I have about 3-4mm of clearance between the hard-stuff - as you can see even wires are rubbing it's so tight in there
https://i.ibb.co/NN0M6bb/IMG-9931.jpg (https://ibb.co/gW0xMhh)


if someone has ideas on clearance of screws, etc to remove the valve cover that would be helpful

[Alan_C]

Sad, I thought for sure there was smoking gun there. Sorry to hear that to get to the head you are going to have to pull the engine, but I know how tight the Coyote fit is. Regarding fuel, there is still the direct injection system too, but I imagine that would be harder to test and diagnose.
As you learn more of what the problem isn't, hopefully Ford Performance can give some valuable feedback. At this point, do you ask FP to warranty replace the crate engine. I think you have done your do diligence here, they need to step up and give you support so that you don't end up with an expensive paperweight.

[toadster]

Sad, I thought for sure there was smoking gun there. Sorry to hear that to get to the head you are going to have to pull the engine, but I know how tight the Coyote fit is. Regarding fuel, there is still the direct injection system too, but I imagine that would be harder to test and diagnose.
As you learn more of what the problem isn't, hopefully Ford Performance can give some valuable feedback. At this point, do you ask FP to warranty replace the crate engine. I think you have done your do diligence here, they need to step up and give you support so that you don't end up with an expensive paperweight.

yeah, i'm pretty much at the end of my skills rope... I'm going to talk with Ford Monday, I think take it up to AED so Shaun can put some hands on it

if I missed something, I'm out a few bucks and it works, if he can't fix it - I'll be pushing for a new engine

[JeffP]

I saw your purple wire there.. I'm assuming you did the Tach wire to one of those coil overs - sure thats all clean and correct?

[Sharris2]

So i just listened to yours; it sounds just like mine (i never checked the exhaust temp) mine runs up like yours then idles down and the exhaust noise changes, but i dont have a tune on mine. Mine appears to be running on all 8 cyl; but again no tune. I dont hear any miss at all?

Scott

[Its Bruce]

log linked above, should be available to download

Observations:


Your MAP spikes to atmospheric (100kpa) whenever you're applying throttle and you're only applying 25% max throttle. This is consistent in both logs.
On the first log, your O2's seem to be adjusting STFT's as they should. I see nothing immediately wrong with their operation, but I don't see where you're monitoring the O2 mV for each bank.
Your trouble codes are all symmetric except for P2008. Is there a Bank 2 for this code?
The fuel rail pressure gets up to >3,000psi with the O2's disconnected but only ~1,000psi in the initial log.
Your Fuel System #1 Status with the O2's plugged in is still "CL - Fault" status.


Is the MAP sensor the correct PN? Is it a 1 bar MAP? Is it installed in the correct location?

Take a look here for some info on the CL - Fault status: https://forum.hptuners.com/showthread.php?54799-Coyote-5-0L-Single-Turbo-Advice

[John Ibele]

Bummer, Todd. I was also hoping to see something that would suggest low fuel pressure being the source of the problem. Such a cause could have also been consistent with the temperature dependence (runs for a short bit on cold start). Vapor pressure of the gas would increase with temperature; gasoline starts moving from liquid to vapor phase at about 95F. So if you were suffering from low pressure at some spot in the system, the fuel wouldn't necessarily vaporize immediately, but could at mildly increased temperatures. I would think that would also be consistent with a lean condition interpretation by the ECU.

I don't see how any of this could be consistent with the free-flowing fuel rail you just demonstrated, and I don't know your engine well enough to comment further. Maybe it will trigger something in the minds of those familiar with your engine. Good luck.

[jab351w]

all vacuum ports are either plugged or routed to things like vacuum assist brakes

Have you verified that the brake booster holds vacuum?

[toadster]

Have you verified that the brake booster holds vacuum?

yes tested this - holds a strong vacuum

[toadster]

I saw your purple wire there.. I'm assuming you did the Tach wire to one of those coil overs - sure thats all clean and correct?

correct - haven’t reattached the tachometer wire yet

[toadster]

Observations:


Your MAP spikes to atmospheric (100kpa) whenever you're applying throttle and you're only applying 25% max throttle. This is consistent in both logs.
On the first log, your O2's seem to be adjusting STFT's as they should. I see nothing immediately wrong with their operation, but I don't see where you're monitoring the O2 mV for each bank.
Your trouble codes are all symmetric except for P2008. Is there a Bank 2 for this code?
The fuel rail pressure gets up to >3,000psi with the O2's disconnected but only ~1,000psi in the initial log.
Your Fuel System #1 Status with the O2's plugged in is still "CL - Fault" status.


Is the MAP sensor the correct PN? Is it a 1 bar MAP? Is it installed in the correct location?

Take a look here for some info on the CL - Fault status: https://forum.hptuners.com/showthread.php?54799-Coyote-5-0L-Single-Turbo-Advice


thanks for the eyeballs on the log :cool:

#1 good for consistency
#2 I can check mV in logging - was trying to grab as much as possible
#3 agree on symmetry for codes nothing from LUND on the same question I had
#4 fuel pressure seems to throttle back quite a bit, most likely a Safety precaution
#5 this is the perplexing part, two separate o2 harnesses same issue

the map sensor is from the control pack, Lund said it was tracking well for a non stock intake setup

[toadster]

ok - we did some off the wall testing tonight, thanks to my buddy Sean who've I've known for 25+ years...

he was here when the kit arrived, and hasn't seen the car in a while, so we went through our testing cycles, going through all the parts replaced, etc. pretty much relived this thread :)

we started talking about the direct injection and port injection on this engine, we hadn't checked the wiring to the lower (direct) injectors so we got out the boroscope and looked around, didn't see anything disconnected or any rodent damage
after a while, he said 'what if we disconnect the bank #2 injectors on top' - we figured it would be worth a try, since the other injectors would add some fuel to run as well

what do you know - the engine fired up and idled just fine, a few loud bangs, and the driver side got nice and hot! the bangs were excess gas in the cylinders relieving themselves
the look on my face must have been something else because we all started laughing, not thinking that the engine would work properly with injectors #5,6,7,8 unplugged - we were perplexed, yet somewhat relieved...

so what did that mean?

we tested with all 4 injectors disconnected, O2 readings were good, so we started a process of elimination

plugged in injector #5 and started the engine, O2 readings are good, temps coming up
plugged in injector #5 and #6 and, same goodness
we then additionally plugged in #7, so we had 5,6,7 plugged in, O2 readings are good! temps coming up!
then we plugged in #8, thinking - maybe it was just a fluke, NOPE - O2 readings went bad - so we determined that injector #8 must be stuck open!

unplugged #8 and it ran fine again... so tomorrow, going to the store to find a replacement injector...

what's really perplexing here is no codes led us to an injector!!

I'll definitely be changing the oil as it reeks of gasoline and has probably lost a lot of it's lubricity
leave it to me to be a guy who changes his oil before he puts a mile on his car...

fingers crossed, a new injector will remedy this!!!
I believe it's the MOTORCRAFT CM5269 (https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/c/motorcraft/motorcraft-injector-assembly/mot0/cm5269?q=MOTORCRAFT+CM5269&pos=0)

here's a pic of my buddy Sean and my son Ryan when we first got the kit, it's been a journey!

https://i.ibb.co/LxK5swz/image.png (https://ibb.co/JvZQSLR)

[Alan_C]

Wow, good news but good grief, a stuck open injector? I am so glad that you are finally moving forward with probable solution.
Get a good nights sleep, a new injector, and ones hopes put this saga to rest.
Once you are sure of the failure, I think a long talk with Ford Performance is in store. I mean with all the troubleshooting hours you have put into your effort, they should trade your bad injector for some kind of compensation like extending the warranty period on your crate engine.

[Nigel Allen]

ok - we did some off the wall testing tonight, thanks to my buddy Sean who've I've known for 25+ years...

he was here when the kit arrived, and hasn't seen the car in a while, so we went through our testing cycles, going through all the parts replaced, etc. pretty much relived this thread :)

we started talking about the direct injection and port injection on this engine, we hadn't checked the wiring to the lower (direct) injectors so we got out the boroscope and looked around, didn't see anything disconnected or any rodent damage
after a while, he said 'what if we disconnect the bank #2 injectors on top' - we figured it would be worth a try, since the other injectors would add some fuel to run as well

what do you know - the engine fired up and idled just fine, a few loud bangs, and the driver side got nice and hot! the bangs were excess gas in the cylinders relieving themselves
the look on my face must have been something else because we all started laughing, not thinking that the engine would work properly with injectors #5,6,7,8 unplugged - we were perplexed, yet somewhat relieved...

so what did that mean?

we tested with all 4 injectors disconnected, O2 readings were good, so we started a process of elimination

plugged in injector #5 and started the engine, O2 readings are good, temps coming up
plugged in injector #5 and #6 and, same goodness
we then additionally plugged in #7, so we had 5,6,7 plugged in, O2 readings are good! temps coming up!
then we plugged in #8, thinking - maybe it was just a fluke, NOPE - O2 readings went bad - so we determined that injector #8 must be stuck open!

unplugged #8 and it ran fine again... so tomorrow, going to the store to find a replacement injector...

what's really perplexing here is no codes led us to an injector!!

I'll definitely be changing the oil as it reeks of gasoline and has probably lost a lot of it's lubricity
leave it to me to be a guy who changes his oil before he puts a mile on his car...

fingers crossed, a new injector will remedy this!!!
I believe it's the MOTORCRAFT CM5269 (https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/c/motorcraft/motorcraft-injector-assembly/mot0/cm5269?q=MOTORCRAFT+CM5269&pos=0)

here's a pic of my buddy Sean and my son Ryan when we first got the kit, it's been a journey!

https://i.ibb.co/LxK5swz/image.png (https://ibb.co/JvZQSLR)

G'day Todd,

Well done! There is a stack of people in this community breathing a sigh of relief for you.

Onward and upward.

Cheers,

Nige

[JeffP]

A lot of speculation about debris in the fuel rail on this thread, I wonder if thats the issue after all that caused the injector to be stuck?

[jamminj]

It sounded like a mechanical issue hope it solves everything

[Tooth]

I can't believe how patient you've been with this. I really hope this is it.

[Mastertech5]

Glad to hear it, you finally got it.

[toadster]

A lot of speculation about debris in the fuel rail on this thread, I wonder if thats the issue after all that caused the injector to be stuck?

we thought the same thing... I almost swapped around injectors when I pulled off the fuel rail, it would have moved the issue around - but we had no clue until we tested like this
what's odd is that the injector 'clicked' when we applied 12v - and no codes from the ECU on this issue...


It sounded like a mechanical issue hope it solves everything


I can't believe how patient you've been with this. I really hope this is it.


G'day Todd,

Well done! There is a stack of people in this community breathing a sigh of relief for you.

Onward and upward.

Cheers,

Nige


Wow, good news but good grief, a stuck open injector? I am so glad that you are finally moving forward with probable solution.
Get a good nights sleep, a new injector, and ones hopes put this saga to rest.
Once you are sure of the failure, I think a long talk with Ford Performance is in store. I mean with all the troubleshooting hours you have put into your effort, they should trade your bad injector for some kind of compensation like extending the warranty period on your crate engine.

appreciate all of your inputs, it's been a slog, praying a new injector will remedy this once and for all!

[BradC]

Man, what an ordeal. Great detective work on it!! Hope the new injector gets it solved! Seems like Ford owes you something for sure.

[Railroad]

After reading your fuel rail post, I thought, surely he swapped sides with the inj to see if the problem moved.
Anyway, celebrating here for your success.
I am going to call it fixed. I know you are kicking your heels up.

[Al_C]

I, too, am thankful you solved it. I knew it had to be fuel related, but who'd have thought it was a single injector! I think everyone watching this thread has benefitted from your experience. I'm sorry you had to go through all this, but you've helped a lot of folks here with the details you've shared!

[Ted G]

Full disclosure Todd..... I did not drive by your house for at least the past week or so just to send you some good Joo Joo; or at least keep away the bad. If this works, you may owe me a beer or better yet, a killer Cabernet! :)

Ted

[toadster]

Full disclosure Todd..... I did not drive by your house for at least the past week or so just to send you some good Joo Joo; or at least keep away the bad. If this works, you may owe me a beer or better yet, a killer Cabernet! :)

Ted


LOL I've got both!

[kirby]

I had been watching this thread intently. I am glad you solved the problem. If it makes you feel better I am going to change my oil before I drive the car too.

[Lidodrip]

Very happy that you solved the problem, I think it is fair to say you now have a Master's degree in trouble shooting the Coyote. Strong work!

James

[spm97]

All,

Quick Intro : I'm the Sean that had the crazy idea to unplug the injectors and "let's see what happens".
I have to second what Todd said : The look on his face when it fired up without the port injectors plugged in was PRICELESS!.

I'm talking to todd now. He needs a priest. He replaced the injector, and still has the same problem.

If he unplugs ANY single injector, the seems to work, . If all eight are plugged in, the Bank 2 basically shuts down.

Anyone got any ideas ? It's either a fuel delivery problem, or not enough power to run EVERYTHING plugged in.

Sean

[JohnK]

He replaced the injector, and still has the same problem.

If he unplugs ANY single injector, the seems to work, . If all eight are plugged in, the Bank 2 basically shuts down.



That's very interesting (though I'm sure also pretty infuriating for poor Todd). That's a very significant additional clue. I have no idea what it means, but I'm guessing someone more familiar with the coyote, like Ford Performance or Lund, would find this additional information pretty useful. Hopefully the root cause is not too far away now.

Maybe not enough engine grounds? (JUST KIDDING !)

[Railroad]

The 4th injector takes the fuel ratio out of range for the O2 system. Too much fuel, as measured by the O2. Are the injectors on the bad side the same color as the other side? Does the noid light seem to pulse the same from one band to the other.
Do not know how, but could the bad side be batch firing the injectors. I am sure the Coyote is sequentially fired injectors.
Just guessing?

[Alan_C]

All,

Quick Intro : I'm the Sean that had the crazy idea to unplug the injectors and "let's see what happens".
I have to second what Todd said : The look on his face when it fired up without the port injectors plugged in was PRICELESS!.

I'm talking to todd now. He needs a priest. He replaced the injector, and still has the same problem.

If he unplugs ANY single injector, the seems to work, . If all eight are plugged in, the Bank 2 basically shuts down.

Anyone got any ideas ? It's either a fuel delivery problem, or not enough power to run EVERYTHING plugged in.

Sean

Well this is one for Ford Performance to step up and solve now. They need the engine back so that they can resolve their issue. The best thing that Ford Performance can do is warranty replace the engine with a new crate engine and let Todd move on with his life. Yes, the engine needs a exorcist, maybe Todd too as these demons have to left their mark.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Well this is one for Ford Performance to step up and solve now. They need the engine back so that they can resolve their issue. The best thing that Ford Performance can do is warranty replace the engine with a new crate engine and let Todd move on with his life. Yes, the engine needs a exorcist, maybe Todd too as these demons have to left their mark.

I have to disagree Alan. I can’t see this as an engine hard parts problem; it’s electrical or fuel related.

Jeff

[toadster]

update from what Sean mentioned...

i replaced injector #8, same issue O2 goes to max lean
unplug injector #8, O2 issue goes away

Sean asked to unplug injector #7, so all others plugged in - pulled #7, O2 issue goes away, plug back in O2 issue comes back
to further test, I pulled injector #1 (on bank 1), with all others plugged in, O2 issue (on bank#2) goes away

so it seems that having all 8 injectors plugged in (electrically) the O2 issue occurs on bank #2

it's always bank #2 O2 issues, never bank #1
the O2 issue only occurs when all 8 injectors are plugged in
the O2 issue goes away when just one of the injectors is unplugged

[toadster]

also, we were thinking possibly the fuel rail maybe wasn't feeding the whole way back to cylinder #8, maybe not blocked but maybe a restriction, so I upped the physical FPR to 71 psi (above the 65psi base) and didn't change the issue

since I know the engine is grounded, I'll go back and check the 12V feeds and redo them
super stumped

[Mastertech5]

Try plugging in the old #8 injector on the connector of the one you dissconnect and see what happens. It won't be connected to fuel so if it runs bad then you definitely have an electrical issue. If it runs good, fuel.

[J R Jones]

update from what Sean mentioned...

i replaced injector #8, same issue O2 goes to max lean
unplug injector #8, O2 issue goes away

Sean asked to unplug injector #7, so all others plugged in - pulled #7, O2 issue goes away, plug back in O2 issue comes back
to further test, I pulled injector #1 (on bank 1), with all others plugged in, O2 issue (on bank#2) goes away

so it seems that having all 8 injectors plugged in (electrically) the O2 issue occurs on bank #2

it's always bank #2 O2 issues, never bank #1
the O2 issue only occurs when all 8 injectors are plugged in
the O2 issue goes away when just one of the injectors is unplugged

T,
This is almost identical to my experience posted here on 10-30. That was a C4 Corvette and I too got all the "fix the ground" suggestions.
In that case the injectors are constant 12V and (each bank) gets switched to ground. I went for the ground signal coming out of the ECU, and it was not there. That was a simple system compared to your Coyote and a new ECU fixed it.
jim

[toadster]

T,
This is almost identical to my experience posted here on 10-30. That was a C4 Corvette and I too got all the "fix the ground" suggestions.
In that case the injectors are constant 12V and (each bank) gets switched to ground. I went for the ground signal coming out of the ECU, and it was not there. That was a simple system compared to your Coyote and a new ECU fixed it.
jim

yes, this is my concern as we're on a 2nd ECU and 2nd engine harness...

the only part that hasn't been replaced is the PDU harness which I'm wondering if it may be causing the electrical issues, so I'll be verifying all those connections

[toadster]

Try plugging in the old #8 injector on the connector of the one you dissconnect and see what happens. It won't be connected to fuel so if it runs bad then you definitely have an electrical issue. If it runs good, fuel.

we tested this last night, the injector plugged into the harness didn't seem to cycle when we ran the engine
and the engine still triggered bank #2 O2 when all 8 injectors plugged in

we still get a clean O2 reading when 7 of 8 injectors are plugged in, but when all 8 injectors are plugged in it triggers the O2

still on the path that this could be an electrical issue... only thing we haven't swapped out is the PDU for the Control Pack
Ford states it shouldn't cause any issues with O2, but given this is the power unit for the control pack, I'm starting to think it may be one more thing to test/replace?

[toadster]

if anyone is interested I have my HP Tuner logs here: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1ZG68ZCGYf2vu8uzWVjBAK3QERF0FkPqf?usp=sharing

[Alan_C]

What has been your communication with Ford Performance? With all that you have been through, it is time they just stood tall and replace the crate engine, controls pack, engine and body harnesses. You have gone so far beyond what normal troubleshooting should require. As much as I believe you want to fix it, diminishing returns and just more delays.

[Mastertech5]

The O2 sensors shouldn't even affect how the the engine runs until you get into closed loop, about when the coolant hits 160 degrees. This is all very wierd! There's one thing that bugs me about Ford. They use all these acronyms and don't really give you a index to see what they stand for. So with that said, what's the PDU?

[toadster]

What has been your communication with Ford Performance? With all that you have been through, it is time they just stood tall and replace the crate engine, controls pack, engine and body harnesses. You have gone so far beyond what normal troubleshooting should require. As much as I believe you want to fix it, diminishing returns and just more delays.

yep we were testing the PDU harness tonight, figured out which fuses feed the injectors, COPs, etc... still nothing...


The O2 sensors shouldn't even affect how the the engine runs until you get into closed loop, about when the coolant hits 160 degrees. This is all very wierd! There's one thing that bugs me about Ford. They use all these acronyms and don't really give you a index to see what they stand for. So with that said, what's the PDU?

PDU = Power Distribution Unit - e.g. the fuse box with the 250A bussman fuse :)

feels like we're chasing a ghost... need an electrical exorcist! :)

[spm97]

Hey all,
Does anyone have a detailed pinout of the Fuse Box ? From what we can tell, fuses 1 thru 4 will get power once the engine is "started" (they do NOT have power with just the key on - something must "Enable" them). If anyone can tell me how they get powered, that would help.
The supply for fuses 1 thru 4 seems to be connected, which makes sense if it's the output from a relay. Which relay ?

Can someone please confirm with the key just in the "On" position, if you put a voltmeter between the wire that is common to all the injectors (i think it was a blue/gray color) and ground you have 0 volts.

We figured out the Fuse1 goes to the PDU harness pins 1,2,13, and one of the pins in the third connector (can't remember it's name).

It _Appears_ that Fuse 2 and Fuse 4 go to the larger connector with 4 wires (3 of the 4 pins on the outside have a heavier gauge wire, and one of the small center pins is used, and then there are a lot of unused small pins) that T's off the PDU harness right before the ECU. one of those 4 wires _Appears_ to be the +12V for the Coils, and one of those 4 wires _Appears_ to be the +12V for the Cam Solenoids, which I believe are fuse #2 and Fuse #4. Again, it someone could confirm that, it would be appreciated.

The remaining larger wire on that connector APPEARS to be the +12V for the injectors, but the weird thing is it is connected to the "Supply" side of Fuses 1-4. And we never found anything connected to the load side of Fuse #3 (at least before I left).

I think something is screwy with the +12V for the injectors. It makes no sense that (again - from the best I could tell) they are all connected to the Supply side of fuses 1 thru 4.

Anyway, that's my thoughts from the evening. Hopefully this helps give people ideas.

Sean

[Erik W. Treves]

your logs clearly show Bank 2 as lean - no fuel on start or 30 seconds in and then recovers fine.

your logs aren't logging enough data to provide any more info....

your cams are good as is timing.... your DI pressure looks ok - but I don't see fuel injector PW - the MAF and air load look good as well

Are you sure the MAF isn't in there backwards?

it definitely clears up though - are you sure you don't have an exhaust leak in front of the O2 on bank 2? it is basically showing LEAN the entire time but trims are good.... have you checked voltage at that O2?? it seems to be ok on start then checks out.

I would look really closely at the fuel injectors and flush out the fuel rail to make sure you don't have any debris that made it to the injectors - then swap them to the other side bank...

[Railroad]

I would see if I could get Ford to approve and pay for a scan at a Ford dealer. Their equipment is unreal for the amount of data that is accessible.
It also can show a history, hopefully on crate engine ECU's also.
If the Ford hotline is really concerned about the issue, I feel this would be an easy choice for them.
I would take stan97 with me, if it happens.

[Ducky2009]

also, we were thinking possibly the fuel rail maybe wasn't feeding the whole way back to cylinder #8, maybe not blocked but maybe a restriction, so I upped the physical FPR to 71 psi (above the 65psi base) and didn't change the issue

Is it possible that the gauge is defective and you're getting too much pressure? Have you tried turning the fuel pressure down?

[toadster]

Is it possible that the gauge is defective and you're getting too much pressure? Have you tried turning the fuel pressure down?
checked with gauge and with the computer, they're in sync - i trusted the measurement, so I removed the FPR gauge and just running off the ECU measurements

[toadster]

your logs clearly show Bank 2 as lean - no fuel on start or 30 seconds in and then recovers fine.

your logs aren't logging enough data to provide any more info....

your cams are good as is timing.... your DI pressure looks ok - but I don't see fuel injector PW - the MAF and air load look good as well

Are you sure the MAF isn't in there backwards?

it definitely clears up though - are you sure you don't have an exhaust leak in front of the O2 on bank 2? it is basically showing LEAN the entire time but trims are good.... have you checked voltage at that O2?? it seems to be ok on start then checks out.

I would look really closely at the fuel injectors and flush out the fuel rail to make sure you don't have any debris that made it to the injectors - then swap them to the other side bank...

MAF is installed as prescribed in the build guide
https://i.ibb.co/888tB8V/image.png (https://ibb.co/dKKxcKy)

here's a pic of mine and the 'spectre' logo is nearest the air filter when installed
https://i.ibb.co/p08qwhw/image.png (https://ibb.co/mDwpTNT)

the header is really solidly mounted, I don't forsee any exhaust leaks

from my prior video, I pulled the rail, and used compressed air - got flow from all the injectors, but I can try swapping side to side...


https://youtu.be/JEIEP2mf-s4?si=BlMnxN6CXbXhctCE

[JeffP]

Hey all,
Does anyone have a detailed pinout of the Fuse Box ? From what we can tell, fuses 1 thru 4 will get power once the engine is "started" (they do NOT have power with just the key on - something must "Enable" them). If anyone can tell me how they get powered, that would help.
The supply for fuses 1 thru 4 seems to be connected, which makes sense if it's the output from a relay. Which relay ?

Can someone please confirm with the key just in the "On" position, if you put a voltmeter between the wire that is common to all the injectors (i think it was a blue/gray color) and ground you have 0 volts.

We figured out the Fuse1 goes to the PDU harness pins 1,2,13, and one of the pins in the third connector (can't remember it's name).

It _Appears_ that Fuse 2 and Fuse 4 go to the larger connector with 4 wires (3 of the 4 pins on the outside have a heavier gauge wire, and one of the small center pins is used, and then there are a lot of unused small pins) that T's off the PDU harness right before the ECU. one of those 4 wires _Appears_ to be the +12V for the Coils, and one of those 4 wires _Appears_ to be the +12V for the Cam Solenoids, which I believe are fuse #2 and Fuse #4. Again, it someone could confirm that, it would be appreciated.

The remaining larger wire on that connector APPEARS to be the +12V for the injectors, but the weird thing is it is connected to the "Supply" side of Fuses 1-4. And we never found anything connected to the load side of Fuse #3 (at least before I left).

I think something is screwy with the +12V for the injectors. It makes no sense that (again - from the best I could tell) they are all connected to the Supply side of fuses 1 thru 4.

Anyway, that's my thoughts from the evening. Hopefully this helps give people ideas.

Sean

Not sure which one you're looking for but there are several pin outs at the end of this doc: https://performanceparts.ford.com/download/instructionsheets/FORDINSTSHTM-6017-M50B.PDF

[toadster]

Not sure which one you're looking for but there are several pin outs at the end of this doc: https://performanceparts.ford.com/download/instructionsheets/FORDINSTSHTM-6017-M50B.PDF

looking for the fuse panel schematic (I've asked Ford for this) - not in the doc you reference above

also, I've asked for the pinout for C146 (16 pin connector) we have 5 feeds from ECU, but only 4 leads in the engine side of the harness - maybe by design, but if we're missing a wire... well, you know :)

found a "free" site but not exactly for the control pack, but general Mustang...

https://cardiagn.com/2015-18-ford-mustang-wiring-diagrams/

[toadster]

tore apart the whole PDU fuse box last night to trace out lines and ensure we have good ground/12v sources - all comes out good... argh

https://i.ibb.co/CK6qSwV/IMG-9996.jpg (https://ibb.co/CK6qSwV) https://i.ibb.co/RB6wvMn/IMG-9997.jpg (https://ibb.co/RB6wvMn) https://i.ibb.co/5RFftqt/IMG-9998.jpg (https://ibb.co/5RFftqt)

we even put the Mustang intake on to see if it changed anything, same issue...

https://i.ibb.co/FnS26Hj/image.png (https://ibb.co/KmMd6K3)

I re-grounded the fuse panel to a new frame ground, and even added a 4GA ground from starter bolt to frame, same issue

https://i.ibb.co/rxC7jqY/image.png (https://ibb.co/rxC7jqY)

all data logs stored here if anyone wants to take a gander
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1ZG68ZCGYf2vu8uzWVjBAK3QERF0FkPqf?usp=sharing

pretty much taking this up to AED on Wednesday, praying for no rain...

[Fman]

Todd, you have definitely done your part trying to figure it out. I am confident AED will figure it out and get her on the road soon! :cool: and weather looks good this week!

[Railroad]

Hope the issue is not too obvious. I will feel more the failure.

[toadster]

Hope the issue is not too obvious. I will feel more the failure.

I'm convinced it will be something insanely simple, or massively wrong… :rolleyes:

[toadster]

long day today, was fortunate enough to borrow FMan's trailer again - what a great guy!! U-haul would have been closer, but they kept bumping my reservation all over the place so I opted to use Travis' trailer - it's posh :)

loaded up the car into the trailer and made the trip up to AED Tuning (https://www.facebook.com/p/AED-Tuning-100038066868997/) to meet Shaun - what a great guy!
thankful that THE premier coyote tuners on the West Coast is only 10 miles away!
He's been helpful the past few months with ideas, etc. but we were at our limits and needed some hands on.

After a few minutes of chatting, asking the usual questions - is your O2 sensor good, did you swap sensors? did you replace sensors? you have spark? the MAF is setup correctly, etc... I can write a book!
He got curious and said, start it up - he got his laptop and hooked up the SCT to visualize. He started by what we did, pulling the injector and noticed that the car would switch over to Direct Injection (DI) - once the car goes into DI mode, it doesn't switch back, so a few more restarts. He pulled bank2 O2 sensor - so all fuel readings were coming off bank 1 - still no fuel...

we told him how we tested the fuel injectors with 12v and they clicked, but he wanted to test further... he grabbed an injector tester, pretty sure it was an AUTOOL Fuel Injector Tester and Cleaner 12V (https://amzn.to/40SNExM)

he tested the spare #8 injector that we replaced already - nothing
next he tested #5 - nothing
then he tested #6 - nothing
and lastly #7 - nothing

literally all 4 fuel injectors on bank2 were dead... but none of them showed this unless we used his test tool, the injectors don't throw codes as there's no logic they're simple circuits
we tested resistance, 12v test clicks, and even voltage during runtime - nothing showed up, unless we used the tool

he then tested bank #1
injectors #1, 2, 3 and #4 were all good - so literally we had a totally dead bank of injectors

#8 was already replaced, so I ordered 3 more that will show up Friday from O'Reilly auto, $120 to fix 6 months of headaches...

fingers crossed this journey is coming to a close...

Thanks to all who have been helping, ideating, and helping me keep my sanity :cool:

[Alan_C]

The odds are astronomical that you could get 4 bad injectors in one bank. Just like you stated "I'm convinced it will be something insanely simple, or massively wrong." So you called it, insanely simple as in bad injectors, but massively wrong as in 4 of 4 in one bank.
Great to have finally closed in on the solution. Once the new injectors are in and working, time to dissect one of the bad ones to determine the actual mode of failure. I would bet on that somehow they are fouled up inside by something. So many had suggested there was something wrong in the fuel rail, looks like they had the right idea just not how the fuel rail was not working.

[Jeff Kleiner]

So the question is "what killed them?" So the original #8 and the replacement #8 plus the original #5, 6 and 7 are all dead? Seems beyond coincidence that they were just bad without a definitive cause.

Jeff

[JohnK]

So the question is "what killed them?" So the original #8 and the replacement #8 plus the original #5, 6 and 7 are all dead? Seems beyond coincidence that they were just bad without a definitive cause.

Jeff

I had the same exact thought. The odds of a failed injector from the factory are very small. The odds of four failed injectors on, not only the same engine, but the same bank are a virtual statistical impossibility.

[toadster]

I had the same exact thought. The odds of a failed injector from the factory are very small. The odds of four failed injectors on, not only the same engine, but the same bank are a virtual statistical impossibility.

1000% agree!!!


So the question is "what killed them?" So the original #8 and the replacement #8 plus the original #5, 6 and 7 are all dead? Seems beyond coincidence that they were just bad without a definitive cause.
Jeff

we're not quite sure to be honest, Ford hasn't replied yet (not surprised given it's Thanksgiving) :)
will see what they say... Shaun at AED was shocked as well, never saw that before on a new crate engine

the original 4 injectors were dead, the new #8 is 'good' - at least from our testing...


The odds are astronomical that you could get 4 bad injectors in one bank. Just like you stated "I'm convinced it will be something insanely simple, or massively wrong." So you called it, insanely simple as in bad injectors, but massively wrong as in 4 of 4 in one bank. Great to have finally closed in on the solution. Once the new injectors are in and working, time to dissect one of the bad ones to determine the actual mode of failure. I would bet on that somehow they are fouled up inside by something. So many had suggested there was something wrong in the fuel rail, looks like they had the right idea just not how the fuel rail was not working.

agreed - the odds of this happening are mind-blowing, hence why it's taken so long to get to this point
even swapping injectors side to side would have just had us seeing bank #1 not working, it would have proved out the failed injector follow test and maybe would have pushed me to get the injector tester...

PRAYING that tomorrow the 3 new injectors will remedy this once and for all!!

[Alan_C]

When I was still working as an engineer, we had a lab onsite that did failure analysis. As part of our design process we had to derive a MTBF for our systems. When we had a premature component failure we would have to go back and recalculate or show that the failure was outside the normal bell curve.
Your 4 failed injectors are beyond anything a manufacturer or end user would expect.

[toadster]

When I was still working as an engineer, we had a lab onsite that did failure analysis. As part of our design process we had to derive a MTBF for our systems. When we had a premature component failure we would have to go back and recalculate or show that the failure was outside the normal bell curve.
Your 4 failed injectors are beyond anything a manufacturer or end user would expect.

yeah, what really sucks is that Ford doesn't even fire the crate motors, they spin them on a test setup - no electrical, or fuel is tested just mechanical....

[Railroad]

On the old push rod 5.0 engines, I think I have read, do not put 12 volts to the injectors.
I cannot say more about whether this is true then or now. It seems alot of the stuff fed from the ECU was to be 5 volts.

[toadster]

On the old push rod 5.0 engines, I think I have read, do not put 12 volts to the injectors.
I cannot say more about whether this is true then or now. It seems a lot of the stuff fed from the ECU was to be 5 volts.

yeah it's odd for sure, we checked all 8 injectors with the 12v test

we even tested all the lines to each injector and they got about 12.3v with the engine off (battery voltage) and ~14 when the engine is running

[Alan_C]

Well once this issue is finally fixed and you can move on, I think you could write a small book on troubleshooting the Coyote. At least organize your notes and write up your troubleshooting methods and results. With so many hours invested in finding your issue, one hopes that this thread and any support documentation you choose to write can help those others who encounter the those strange problems that defy logic.

[spm97]

Well once this issue is finally fixed and you can move on, I think you could write a small book on troubleshooting the Coyote. At least organize your notes and write up your troubleshooting methods and results. With so many hours invested in finding your issue, one hopes that this thread and any support documentation you choose to write can help those others who encounter the those strange problems that defy logic.


I don't think it would be a book at this point. I think the technical term would be "Saga" or "Novel" :-) Maybe they will make a movie out of it.

J/K of course.

I was there Wed. when Shaun tested the injectors. The look on Todd's face when he found out all four injectors were bad - Priceless.
The cool thing was Shaun was able to explain exactly why unplugging one injector helped.

I agree - Todd needs to write up everything, including how to debug the harness pin by pin ....

[toadster]

https://media.giphy.com/media/vmv47p4zksWDC/giphy-downsized-large.gif


https://youtu.be/REo-gU2gq30?si=deR8apmlD-gfts9B

[Mastertech5]

That's the type of tool I described earlier on in this saga. 4 bad injectors? Who would have thought! At least now you can move on. I'm glad you were able to get it sorted out, but I agree with what Jeff said. Why would 4 injectors fail together? Is there an under lying cause.
FWIW, the 5 volts that Railroad mentioned is reference voltage for sensors and is modified by the sensors and the resulting voltage is the signal that the ECM reads.

[J R Jones]

T, you can not get a valid temperature reading from a shiny surface like chrome or stainless with an infrared gun. The same surface black or even painted reads at a much higher number.
jim

[Jeff Kleiner]

Todd,
Happy to hear that you've made progress but as someone who spent a decade and a half in the engineering test labs at GM doing both destructive and durability testing I have to say you really can't stick a fork in it until you can answer the question of "why?" As I said earlier, the likelihood of all 4 injectors just randomly being bad is a statistical impossibility. Something caused it, either electrically or mechanically (i.e. clogged, perhaps with debris left in the line when the hoses were made up). I'd sure want to do the forensic investigation to determine what that was.

Good luck!

Jeff

[Jryasko]

Glad to hear it is finally resolved. But in agreement with Jeff, really like to find out source of failure. 1 item that may give an answer. Did you flush the fuel line prior to connecting it to the rail ? Fuel comes in on that side of the engine and could possibly be source of contamination of the injectors. I had jumped the relay and flushed the line from tank to engine prior to initial startup. Is Ford standing behind the injectors ?

[toadster]

Glad to hear it is finally resolved. But in agreement with Jeff, really like to find out source of failure. 1 item that may give an answer. Did you flush the fuel line prior to connecting it to the rail ? Fuel comes in on that side of the engine and could possibly be source of contamination of the injectors. I had jumped the relay and flushed the line from tank to engine prior to initial startup. Is Ford standing behind the injectors ?


Todd,
Happy to hear that you've made progress but as someone who spent a decade and a half in the engineering test labs at GM doing both destructive and durability testing I have to say you really can't stick a fork in it until you can answer the question of "why?" As I said earlier, the likelihood of all 4 injectors just randomly being bad is a statistical impossibility. Something caused it, either electrically or mechanically (i.e. clogged, perhaps with debris left in the line when the hoses were made up). I'd sure want to do the forensic investigation to determine what that was.
Good luck!
Jeff

yes, regarding 'root cause' - not sure if we'll ever understand this one to be honest, I'll most likely ship the failed injectors back to Ford so they can investigate, not sure how much else can be tested
we checked voltage and resistance on each injector and all were identical across all eight


T, you can not get a valid temperature reading from a shiny surface like chrome or stainless with an infrared gun. The same surface black or even painted reads at a much higher number.
jim

Hi Jim - yes, I agree, the headers have Jet-Hot coating on them and they're matte finish (since they couldn't tumble them to a nice shine due to the catalytics) - they all get up to temp now where previously the driver side would be 95F all day long


That's the type of tool I described earlier on in this saga. 4 bad injectors? Who would have thought! At least now you can move on. I'm glad you were able to get it sorted out, but I agree with what Jeff said. Why would 4 injectors fail together? Is there an under lying cause.
FWIW, the 5 volts that Railroad mentioned is reference voltage for sensors and is modified by the sensors and the resulting voltage is the signal that the ECM reads.

agreed, a simple injector test is what solved the issue here, again - another $30 part from Amazon
we chased what seemed to be an electrical problem, everything pointed to O2 sensor readings - because the injectors won't throw a code

great example of why great tuners are "great" because, while they haven't seen it all (this is a perfect example) - they think out of the box, or a different box altogether

very appreciative of everyone's support on this, hindsight makes this look easy - but dang!

[spm97]

Now we all need to start pestering Todd to get the last few items done so he can get it off to paint !!!

[Alan_C]

I think the man needs some rest before we start pushing him toward the finish line. We wanted answers and finally got some. Let Todd catch his breath, then he can sprint to go karting and disassembly for paint. I know for me, taking the damn thing apart looked painful. Then I got a call from Da Bat that he had a gap in his schedule and was looking for a body to work on. I was at a stage where I could do it. He was at the house within days, roughed in the body gaps using HSRF, cut the panel gaps in before the HSRF fully cured. Roughed in the filler and loaded the body on to a buck mounted in the back of his pickup. Panels like doors, hood, and trunk lid were stowed in the back seat of the truck. About 6 months later, the body was painted and ready to be reunited with the go kart. The only downside of having Jeff out at the house was all the Bat dust left in the garage. I mean I thought I was vacuuming the garage daily for like a month, but worth it once I got to see the painted body, pics attached.

[toadster]

just to follow up - moving onto interior parts now, the engine runs great! taking the car up to AED next Friday to have it dyno tuned...

just not digging the LUND tune via remote and not even remotely close to the driving style that they're suggesting to road dyno:

The process to get the log is this:
With the car at operating temp,
start logging idle for 3-5 minutes,
then rev the RPM to 1500 RPM and hold 10-15 seconds,
then do the same for 2500 RPM and 3500 RPM.
Keep the engine running and proceed to drive it.
In 2nd or 3rd gear do a couple SLOW RPM climbs from 2500-5000 RPM.
DO NOT go WOT. Stay part throttle.
THEN, do ONE 2nd or 3rd gear 2500 to 7200 RPM WOT log.
Come to a stop.
Let it idle for 1-2 minutes.
Stop the log and save it. It'll be a long log but it'll give me good info.

anyone interested in buying my HP Tuners MPVI3 ? https://www.hptuners.com/mpvi3/

[edwardb]

just to follow up - moving onto interior parts now, the engine runs great! taking the car up to AED next Friday to have it dyno tuned...

just not digging the LUND tune via remote and not even remotely close to the driving style that they're suggesting to road dyno..

To be fair, a whole bunch of us have successfully navigated the Lund tuning process and had good results. Myself three times. And no, I don't work for them or get any commissions. If you didn't have the problems with your Coyote you likely would have ended the Lund process with a good running engine like the rest of us. And a lot of forum bandwidth saved. :p Which BTW, I'm still not getting the root cause of why four injectors failed. All on the same bank. Hopefully the root cause has been found and corrected. What I've learned in my multiple years is that electrical problems seldom heal themselves.

You're fortunate to have AEP close as an option. Arguably an actual dyno tune is perhaps better. If not at least a little less stressful. That WOP test on the street takes the right place and the right time. But I have yet to find a local tuner that will do the Coyote crate engines. Mustangs all day long. But mention the crate motor calibration and they're not interested.

[Its Bruce]

just to follow up - moving onto interior parts now, the engine runs great! taking the car up to AED next Friday to have it dyno tuned...

just not digging the LUND tune via remote and not even remotely close to the driving style that they're suggesting to road dyno:

The process to get the log is this:
With the car at operating temp,
start logging idle for 3-5 minutes,
then rev the RPM to 1500 RPM and hold 10-15 seconds,
then do the same for 2500 RPM and 3500 RPM.
Keep the engine running and proceed to drive it.
In 2nd or 3rd gear do a couple SLOW RPM climbs from 2500-5000 RPM.
DO NOT go WOT. Stay part throttle.
THEN, do ONE 2nd or 3rd gear 2500 to 7200 RPM WOT log.
Come to a stop.
Let it idle for 1-2 minutes.
Stop the log and save it. It'll be a long log but it'll give me good info.

anyone interested in buying my HP Tuners MPVI3 ? https://www.hptuners.com/mpvi3/

Do you think you'll be able to do those WOT pulls with traction? Please be safe.

[JeffP]

Do you think you'll be able to do those WOT pulls with traction? Please be safe.

Many of us have... definitely not for the faint of heart.

[toadster]

it didn't blow up! that's a good thing right? :cool:


https://youtu.be/a0yedDbFMgM

https://i.ibb.co/sR0yp0Q/Screenshot-2023-12-18-082727.png (https://ibb.co/Pj7ws74)

[JohnK]

Awesome!

[Justin]

413hp, perfect for a OTB 'Yote!