Cooling - Water pump leak

[elspanishgeek]

Hi y'all,

Wanted to check with you before reaching out to BluePrint Engines. I can't seem to fully burp the air out of my cooling system (no AC, heater). After some inspection, I'm consistently finding some small drips over the harmonic balancer, and I can't find any other source but the bottom side of the water pump. I'm attaching several pictures:

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Is this something that requires replacing the pump, or re-using it but taking it off, putting it back after cleaning the mating surfaced and adding RTV, or do I just untighten-tighten the water pump bolts?

Thank you

[weendoggy]

From what little I can see, the pump's going to need to come off so you can check it all, and at least, use new gaskets and seal it up again. Also, that little leak shouldn't effect burping the system.

[egchewy79]

I'd check that hose clamp directly above the balancer first.
In order to fully assess the pump, then yes, you'd need to remove it, clean all mating surfaces and reinstall w/ gaskets/RTV. I personally will smear a thin layer of RTV on the paper gaskets.
Also keep in mind that some of the pump bolts go into the coolant areas and will need some sort of sealant on the threads.
what makes you think you have a burping issue? temps running too hot?
show us a pic of your set up. you want the filler T neck as high as possible. Sometimes an air bubble gets trapped under the temp sender in the intake and you may need to remove the sender and purge the air from that location.

lastly, you can pressure test the coolant system w/ a kit rented from your local auto store. many places (NAPA) will rent these tools for free and return your deposit once you return the tool. once pressurized, you can look/listen for air/fluid leaks in the system.

[Papa]

Coolant can come from a lot of places,so don't automatically assume it's coming from the pump. I assumed my pump was bad and went to all the cost in dollars and time to replace it only to later discover the source of the Coolant leak was actually the radiator. Coolant was leaking down the radiator and getting blown onto the front of the engine by the fan. If you do pull the pump, use a good glycol-resistant RTV and quality gasket to be sure it seals up good.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=159613&d=1641183140

[elspanishgeek]

Thank you for the responses! Life got in the way these past couple of months and I was just able to circle back to this. Per usual, I'm befuddled with what's going on. I didn't turn on the car for almost 2 months, and here is how the harmonic balancer under the water pump looks like now:

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Comparing with the pictures when I first started the thread, there is a clear leak. But here's where I'm confused, I followed the advice to rent a pressure tester, and after 30 minutes, no drop in pressure and leak anywhere. I'm feeling around, also checking the weep hole and everything feels dry.

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I'm guessing the only thing left is taking the pump out and checking everything, new gaskets, and re-seal? If so, anybody with one of these BluePrint 302/347 know the gasket number? I'm not sure if the Fel-pro 32511 (https://www.summitracing.com/parts/fel-35211) or Fel-pro 35927 (https://www.summitracing.com/parts/fel-35397). What I'm also confused by, if you see the pictures, there seem to be TWO Fel-pro gaskets sandwiching a metal spacer that has also become rusty. Is this a normal thing? Could it be a spacer to align the water pump with the serpentine belt? Every time I've called BluePrint they don't have an answer and never get back to me.

Thank you in advance!

[J R Jones]

ESG,
Antifreeze has corrosion inhibiting additives, the HB corrosion surprises me.
Before disassembly you might try placing (blue) paper towels below each coolant system feature, hose connections, thermostat housing, water pump housing, seal/bearing port, temp sender, and hope for a tell-tail watermark.
I assume you have tested the drip for the sweet antifreeze taste?
jim

[elspanishgeek]

I don't have coolant in yet, I read some threads of people running distilled water at the beginning of their build (before winter), to make sure everything was OK before flushing it out and filling it with coolant.

I left the pressure test kit running and while the pressure hasn't dropped, was able to capture a picture of the leak:

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[cobrajj]

After many leaks at the water pump gasket area ( and thermostat housing), I used Permatex Right Stuff w/o gaskets. Been 12 years--no leaks!

[elspanishgeek]

More updates. I began the process to remove the water pump, out of 7 bolts, 5 came out without issues, but 2 are stuck in different states:

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Bolt A: As you can see, it's almost out. However, there is still a bit of bolt through the bracket, spacer, and into the water pump. It spins freely when I turn it, doesn't feel like there is any threading left, it's just stuck?

Bolt B: This one was hard to turn and I needed a breaker bar. It loosened a bit but now it's stuck and not turning anymore in any direction. I could give it more elbow grease but I'm very worried the threading has stripped, or is about to strip, or even break the bolt. There is a hole on the backside and I managed to pour a bit of penetrating oil. I'm waiting until tomorrow to try again.

Any advice?

Also, I've reached out to Blueprint Engines through multiple channels, still no answer.

[scrubs]

I'm late to the party, but my leak was in the same place and turned out to be a hose (not sure of you saw the tbread).

I believe the plate you were talking about is just a backing plate that covers the pump impeller (?) And only the inlet outlet will be exposed. I have not seen it myself, but while researching the replacement I thankfully avoided.

Make sure the unit it not placing any torque/pressure on the bolts as they suspend some of the accessories.

Interested to see what you find and in case I am in your shoes someday.

Good luck, take your tine.

[burchfieldb]

You might have to apply some heat to the bolt, depending on what type of threadlocker was used. That might also be keeping bolt A from pulling all the way through the spacer. You may also want to remove the accessories as well, to be able to loosen the other bolts in the brackets. Depending on how tight the hole tolerances are, they may also be causing binding.

[Papa]

Are the bolts stainless steel? If the bolt won't move in either direction, it could be galled. It may be very difficult to remove, but there are some tricks that might work.

https://www.ehow.com/how_5040313_remove-galled-stainless-steel-bolt.html

If this doesn't work, it could require a machine shop to drill or whatever they do to fix these issues.

[weendoggy]

Bolt A should now be free, even if you have to remove the pump and alt. bracket with it. Bolt B only needs to clear the timing housing depth, normally about 5/8". The ones that usually give you fits are the lower side bolts that go into the block, but being this is fairly new I doubt those will give you fits. Unless the installer really messed up. I always put anti-sieze on all those long bolts.

[elspanishgeek]

Update on the situation. Took about 2 hours of heat cycles and PB Blaster, but I was finally able to get the stuck bolt (Bolt B on my previous post) out:

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The bottom of the water pump, backing plate, and sandwiched gaskets are not looking pretty and definitely the source of the leak.

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Unfortunately, the other one (Bolt A) turns out is galled pretty badly and I can't slide the spacer out:

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I was able to start a warranty process with Blueprint. They are going to call me soon to identify what parts they are sending me, however, I really would like to avoid replacing the timing cover (where those 2 threaded holes are). I'm thinking to try chasing them and if that doesn't work, re-tapping them with the same size. The reason to avoid replacing the timing cover is that it would require removing the harmonic balancer/crankshaft pulley and I'm concerned about messing up the timing.

Any suggestions for cleaning the threaded holes?

Also, thank you everyone for the continuing help and advice!

[weendoggy]

The water pump has two gaskets. The one between the plate and pump needs to seal good. The w/pump to timing cover really needs the ports sealed. I use Permatex High Tach on all my gaskets.

Cleaning the threaded t/cover holes would just need a good tap or thread chaser. Going all the way through isn't a big deal because most all the bolts will have threads extend that far. If it's really bad and not adequate threads, you either drill and install a heli-coil set, or, you hope to get enough thread pressure to seal the pump and put a nut on the other side. Not a real pretty sight, but doable.

If you need to pull the t/cover, don't worry about timing. You won't mess with the chain. The damper will come off (use a puller) and the cover bolts come out as well as the bottom oil pan bolts along the cover and at least one back on the block. Then its a clean and replace syndrome. Stuff some shop towels (paper type are o.k.) between the block and oil pan opening so you don't drop crap in the exposed oil pan. Make sure you use some silicone in the corners at the t/cover-to-pan area and let it set for about 5min. before putting the cover on and tighten all bolts. Get a press to put the damper back on if you don't have one. Pounding with a hammer and block or whatever is a sure sign of ..... fill that in. Then install the w/pump and accys.

Be sure to drain the oil (just in case you drop gasket material while cleaning) after you're done.

Note: replace all the galled bolts and coat the entire bolt with antisieze on reassembly.

[Papa]

So is bolt A not out? Is it still stuck in the spacer or what. You mentioned that you could turn it before. If it is out of the pump and just stuck in the spacer, heat the spacer and use something like a slide hammer vice grip to separate the spacer from the bolt or just cut the bolt since you're going to have to replace it anyway. Just try not to damage the pretty bracket.

[elspanishgeek]

The water pump has two gaskets. The one between the plate and pump needs to seal good. The w/pump to timing cover really needs the ports sealed. I use Permatex High Tach on all my gaskets.

Cleaning the threaded t/cover holes would just need a good tap or thread chaser. Going all the way through isn't a big deal because most all the bolts will have threads extend that far. If it's really bad and not adequate threads, you either drill and install a heli-coil set, or, you hope to get enough thread pressure to seal the pump and put a nut on the other side. Not a real pretty sight, but doable.

If you need to pull the t/cover, don't worry about timing. You won't mess with the chain. The damper will come off (use a puller) and the cover bolts come out as well as the bottom oil pan bolts along the cover and at least one back on the block. Then its a clean and replace syndrome. Stuff some shop towels (paper type are o.k.) between the block and oil pan opening so you don't drop crap in the exposed oil pan. Make sure you use some silicone in the corners at the t/cover-to-pan area and let it set for about 5min. before putting the cover on and tighten all bolts. Get a press to put the damper back on if you don't have one. Pounding with a hammer and block or whatever is a sure sign of ..... fill that in. Then install the w/pump and accys.

Be sure to drain the oil (just in case you drop gasket material while cleaning) after you're done.

Note: replace all the galled bolts and coat the entire bolt with antisieze on reassembly.

Thank you for this detailed play-by-play! Hopefully, I won't have to use it, though. I'll go get a thread chaser and see if that's enough.



So is bolt A not out? Is it still stuck in the spacer or what. You mentioned that you could turn it before. If it is out of the pump and just stuck in the spacer, heat the spacer and use something like a slide hammer vice grip to separate the spacer from the bolt or just cut the bolt since you're going to have to replace it anyway. Just try not to damage the pretty bracket.

I was able to slide out the water pump but like you said, I'm going to have to cut the bolt to remove it from the bracket:

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[weendoggy]

Thank you for this detailed play-by-play! Hopefully, I won't have to use it, though. I'll go get a thread chaser and see if that's enough.

I was able to slide out the water pump but like you said, I'm going to have to cut the bolt to remove it from the bracket:

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HINT: If that spacer is still good when you cut the bolt and can remove it, drill out the spacer to give you clearance. It doesn't have to be a gnats a$$ fit. :o Cut the bolt near the spacer non-threaded end as close as you can. Put the space in the vice so the threaded part is between the jaws on top. Use a punch to drive out the bolt. Or, you could use a small deep socket or pipe and do the same thing. Just make sure you have enough room to drive the bolt out. You can also make a new spacer.

[elspanishgeek]

I was able to use a thread chaser on those holes and after several rounds, the chaser goes all the way, easily, using just my fingers. I also tested using one of the bolts that didn't have any issues and seems to go in OK. I've been cleaning the gunk with a carbide scrapper, acetone, and lacquer thinner. Is there a better method for this? I keep reading brake cleaner but wanted to check if anybody here had any pearls of wisdom.

I also wanted to check if the surface of the timing cover looks good enough to reuse or if what I'm doing is just futile and the cover is unsalvageable:

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[rich grsc]

Why the heck would the cover be unsalvageable? The ports are the only place that is important to be clean so that you get good gasket contact

[elspanishgeek]

Because I see some imperfections around the ports and I'm not sure if they can be cleaned or not or if they are an issue in the first place. To my novice eyes, I see a lot of scratches and some weird discolorations that I can't get out, and I simply don't know how to gauge this. I'm here to learn.

As I said in the previous post, I've been trying with a carbide scrapper and acetone and not making much progress after those pictures. I'm finding a lot of "arguing" on my research about what to use: razor blade, scotchbrite pad, brass wire brush, copper wire brush, rubber bristle discs, roloc discs, etc. Didn't want to venture out without checking here because I don't want to scratch or damage the aluminium or waste money.

[Papa]

You want the surfaces where the gasket goes to be as clean and flat as possible. I recommend using a block with any abrasive cloth or paper you attack those areas with. For the large area of corrosion on the timing cover, I'd just clean it up with light abrasive wheel on a die grinder just enough to get it smooth again. I'd also recommend flushing the block thoroughly before filling with coolant and not leaving pure water in the system going forward.

[weendoggy]

First, put a rag in those ports before doing scraping, grinding etc. You don't need more crap in the cooling system. Second, use a good long flat file to insure those surfaces are flat and true once you get the gasket cleaned off (which it looks like you did). You don't have to file them perfect, just enough to see they're flat. Third, I hope that t/cover gasket isn't compromised on the engine side or you can get a good leak there. Fourth, as mentioned, save your antifreeze until you know there's no leak.

[CraigS]

It has been about 8yrs since I did my 408 so details are not in memory but a few thoughts. Some pumps have that sheet metal backing plate and some don't. Mine did and it was attached to the pump w/ a bolt w/ a very thin head. I wanted to be able to put sealer on that captured gasket so I carefully removed that bolt so I could seal the gasket completely. Also my gasket set had maybe 5-6 water pump to front cover gaskets to choose from w/ some very small differences. It took me way more time than it should to figure which was the right gasket. It was not the gasket I originally used. My final assembly I used the Right STuff sealer because of all the recommendations here over the years. It fixed my seep but I think it was more, 1- properly sealing that plate and, 2- using the correct gasket that was the fix and not the sealer itself. BTW maybe 3 months later I tried to use the RS sealer again and couldn't get any to come out of the can. Trashed the can and have never bought another one. BTW2. I thin smeared sealer on the pump, both sides of the plate, and the front cover so it was on both sides of each gasket.

[elspanishgeek]

Hey everyone,

Finally getting back to this. BluePrint sent me a new water pump and I cleaned the back of the timing cover some more. Just wanted to get some additional eyeballs on it:

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As you can see, there are still some discolorations that I can't get rid of. However, if you see the videos, I can run a plastic scraper over them without issues. Those areas are smooth, not dents or chunks of leftover gasket/RTV. Still, not sure if they need to be cleaned (if so, how), if it's good to proceed like this, or if the timing cover needs to be replaced.


https://i.imgur.com/O2KyoC5.mp4

https://i.imgur.com/rl1MxJ0.mp4

[egchewy79]

don't fret about those areas. as long as there isn't debris, it'll be fine.
use a thin smear of RTV on both sides of the gaskets, reinstall, let cure and then torque to spec.

[Papa]

That looks fine to me, too. Don't fully tighten the bolts initially. Tighten them just enough to where the sealant starts to squeeze out and then let the sealant cure for 24 hours before torquing the bolts the rest of the way.

For reference, this is what mine looked like before I reassembled it and I haven't had any leaks.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=153699&d=1632517068

[rich grsc]

In Papa's picture, the red circled area's are the only place to worry about coolant. Just a thin smear of RTV there, and on the water pump in the same area.

[Mike.Bray]

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=153699&d=1632517068

I don't know why but my gasket set included one that was open to the center, did not fully incircle the ports as Papa shows. With this gasket coolant goes to the center of the pump and out the little slot at the bottom. Don't ask me how I know.

[rich grsc]

That one was for the backing plate that bolts to the pump, not the pump to the timing cover.

[elspanishgeek]

Thank you for the responses and the pictures! I got ready to do the installation and turned out that the bolts I got from BluePrint are shorter, they must be for an engine without brackets and spacers for alternator and power steering. Quite the weird mix, 7 bolts, 5/16''-18 with the following lengths and materials:

- 1 x 6-1/4'', (YFS/12.9) steel
- 2 x 6'', stainless
- 3 x 4'', stainless
- 1 x 2-3/4'', stainless

I was able to find all of them except the only non-SS one. Here's how they look:

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I wanted to confirm that I should put a dab of anti-seize on the stainless steel ones, but what about the other one? It was really caked in something that I can't tell what it is.

[egchewy79]

Thank you for the responses and the pictures! I got ready to do the installation and turned out that the bolts I got from BluePrint are shorter, they must be for an engine without brackets and spacers for alternator and power steering. Quite the weird mix, 7 bolts, 5/16''-18 with the following lengths and materials:

- 1 x 6-1/4'', (YFS/12.9) steel
- 2 x 6'', stainless
- 3 x 4'', stainless
- 1 x 2-3/4'', stainless

I was able to find all of them except the only non-SS one. Here's how they look:

193525

I wanted to confirm that I should put a dab of anti-seize on the stainless steel ones, but what about the other one? It was really caked in something that I can't tell what it is.

some of these bolts will go into the water chambers and require a coating of RTV to seal them.

[J R Jones]

elgeek, You bear responsibility for inspection, thread cleanliness, thread engagement, final assembly and torque.
Thread engagement in steel or cast iron is a minimum 1.5 (fastener) diameters.
Thread engagement in aluminum is a minimum of two diameters of the fastener.
Yes threads open to a water jacket must be sealed as stated by chewy.
jim

[BRRT]

elgeek, You bear responsibility for inspection, thread cleanliness, thread engagement, final assembly and torque.
Thread engagement in steel or cast iron is a minimum 1.5 (fastener) diameters.
Thread engagement in aluminum is a minimum of two diameters of the fastener.
Yes threads open to a water jacket must be sealed as stated by chewy.
jim

Pearls of wisdom in that post