aging racing engine and oil questions

[john42]

Engine is a .030 over 1990 302 with trickflow cam, heads, intake.
I've been running Royal Purple 5w30.

Car is of course a challenge car and was raced a lot. Originally built in 2006. I currently do SCCA/Autocross, 1-2 track days a year and on average put 8-10k miles a year on it in normal driving.

Over the course of 1k-1500 miles it'll use about a quart of oil. I have no leaks. Garage floor is perfectly clean, no evidence of oil anywhere on the engine. It used to leak... drove me nuts and now the rear main seal is replaced and also a new oil pan resolved my leak issues. I was hoping the was the source of my oil loss but alas... no.

Several (not all) spark plugs appear oil fouled. I originally thought I was running rich. On drives with others they have mentioned that when I accelerate hard there is black smoke from the exhaust. Which led me to believe it was running rich at the top of the RPM band. I've since done a base computer reset, new MAF sensors, throttle body clean and tune. Seems all spot on now. I'm wondering now if it is less black then believed and if Royal Purple burns darker then the traditional blue/grey.

So anyway... I'm wondering if my thinking is correct and also mulling over my future plans of engine rebuild vs buying a motor from Forte/Blueprint/other. Doing a sanity check on the idea of pulling my engine and taking it to a local machine shop and having it rebuilt as a 347. Trying to do a serious look on a budget friendly path forward as well is eeek out about 420-450HP as a goal. I would also like a more traditional "Cobra" engine look. Of course an 8 stack injection system like the Engles is a dream but those are pretty costly so not sure how'd that fit in the budget friendly path.

[Bob Cowan]

Sounds like you need new rings. It's time for an overhaul, at least. If you do it yourself, it's a fairly simple job, and doesn't require a lot of special tools.

If you want a completely new engine, it's cheaper and easier to buy a crate motor from someone like Mike Forte, and swap it out over a week end. Then you can sell the old 347 for a few bux.

Doing a total rebuild on a Windsor engine isn't really cost effective. By the time you pay for parts, labor, and machining, you could have purchased the crate motor and saved a ton of time.

[Jim1855]

John42,
How adventurous are you? Comfortable doing the rebuild?
I agree with Bob, not that tough unless there are issues, then it can get more involved.
I'd be inclined to tear it down and inspect it then make the decision to do it myself, send it out or buy new. Close as I can tell you'd only be out a bit of time and have first-hand experience of a good look-see as to what wore out.
If I was doing it, I'd plan on all gaskets & seals, oil pump, rings, bearings, valve job & springs and the other wear parts. You could evaluate from there and total the parts bill from the Summit/Jegs catalogs. You might find that Bob's suggestion of a new crate motor is a better bet, at least you'd be making a decision based on your own knowledge.
Jim

[john42]

John42,
How adventurous are you? Comfortable doing the rebuild?
I agree with Bob, not that tough unless there are issues, then it can get more involved.
I'd be inclined to tear it down and inspect it then make the decision to do it myself, send it out or buy new. Close as I can tell you'd only be out a bit of time and have first-hand experience of a good look-see as to what wore out.
If I was doing it, I'd plan on all gaskets & seals, oil pump, rings, bearings, valve job & springs and the other wear parts. You could evaluate from there and total the parts bill from the Summit/Jegs catalogs. You might find that Bob's suggestion of a new crate motor is a better bet, at least you'd be making a decision based on your own knowledge.
Jim



While I've done a ton of rebuilding on this car, I don't have the space (single car garage), the tools (engine puller or space for one), or the comfort in my ability to rebuild the engine myself. The engine swap idea sounds best to me. I could rent a puller and do that in a weekend in the driveway and then move it back into the garage to finish.

I'm pretty sure it's just all equally wore it out.. the many 24hr endurance races with the engine at 4k-6k rpm for 24hrs likely had something to do with the wear :-). Even tho I think this is engine #3 in the the car before I obtained it. Assuming I do an engine swap, I would like to do a little probing/disassembly. I think seeing an engine that was raced like this would be a fun learning experience. I just don't feel comfortable putting an engine together correctly. I'm also just 2 hours away from Forte :-)

[Jim1855]

John,
I think you are on the right path and thought-line.
A new Forte built engine makes sense and you get to choose the configuration. I've worked with Mike and would have no concerns with his builds.
Then exploring the current is a great learning experience. Might even make the current more appealing to a potential buyer as they can see, poke and prod before buying.
Good luck with your choices and the project.
Jim, just another CC guy that's way behind.

[J R Jones]

John,
Considering the cost and labor you suggest, you have not done much troubleshooting. Years ago and more recently OEM specification was 750-1000 mile per quart for oil consumption as acceptable, not justifying warranty repair. That consumption is not an expense hardship.
You have not mentioned a compression test or a cylinder leak down. Those are a cheap DIY, and will give you direction.
I do not believe oil burns at differing colors.
Are you tracking the air to fuel ratio, especially under the conditions of black smoke?
An exhaust trace could be carbon burning off, but carbon would not be a continuous occurrence.
Many forum cars are powered to a degree that they are driven moderately and spark plug deposits are possible. Do you know your spark plug heat range? Are you running cold plugs?
jim

[Jeff Kleiner]

Just a point of reference; my engine is built almost identically (i.e. Challenge Series spec with the Trick Flow top end, cam, intake, etc.). I run Royal Purple 10W30. I built it 25,000 miles ago and have 1/2 quart of consumption between 3,000 mile changes. It gets run pretty hard much of that time. I wonder if you’d see less consumption with 10W30?

Jeff

[john42]

Just a point of reference; my engine is built almost identically (i.e. Challenge Series spec with the Trick Flow top end, cam, intake, etc.). I run Royal Purple 10W30. I built it 25,000 miles ago and have 1/2 quart of consumption between 3,000 mile changes. It gets run pretty hard much of that time. I wonder if you’d see less consumption with 10W30?

Jeff



Interesting. I’ll switch to 10w30 and observe next change.

[Mastertech5]

Just to point out a couple of things that may be of interest to you. Oil burning has a bluish hue to it, rich is definitely black. A rich condition will leave a black dryish powdery coating on the plugs, oil leaves damp deposits sometimes dark brown clumpy build up if it burns off successfully. The best way to check rings is a cylinder leak down test as J R Jones stated. If you have a PCV valve, is it clogged or is the hose collapsed? Crankcase pressure will increase with cylinder pressure and a properly working cankcase venting system is necessary. Were the rings broken in correctly to begin with? As a general rule of thumb, if it smokes on start up its valve seals, when you get on it it's rings. I agree that if you decide on a repair that a crate engine would be the best way to go in your situation. Good Luck!

[bobl]

So the big question is what is your goal? From your comments you're looking to up the HP to around 450 and plan on some racing. To reach that goal it will take better heads, bigger cam and more displacement, then of course a forged rotating assembly to keep it together and an induction system that keeps up. A turn key engine built to the correct specs would probably be your best bet, then sell what you've got. If you're satisfied with what you have just refresh it. Rings, bearings, seals, gaskets and a valve job would probably be all it needs, unless something is broken.

Bob

[GoDadGo]

I love to spend other peoples money so much so that I'd like to suggesting building a 363.
Yes you will need a new block, but you can keep driving your car while you build your next motor.
In the mean time consider running 10W-30 or 15W-40 (Rotella) to keep your engine running a little longer.

Short Deck Ford Testing Video:
https://youtu.be/I1LMnW396tw

Good Luck!

[john42]

So the big question is what is your goal? From your comments you're looking to up the HP to around 450 and plan on some racing. To reach that goal it will take better heads, bigger cam and more displacement, then of course a forged rotating assembly to keep it together and an induction system that keeps up. A turn key engine built to the correct specs would probably be your best bet, then sell what you've got. If you're satisfied with what you have just refresh it. Rings, bearings, seals, gaskets and a valve job would probably be all it needs, unless something is broken.

Bob

Pretty much nailed the goal. 450ish HP some fun and light racing. I’m of the frame of mind of if I’m going to to through the effort then I should spend the money once and get what I want rather then an barely less expensive “fix” to the current.

[mikeinatlanta]

Nobody here can legitimately advise a course of action with the information provided, and quite frankly, even for here I'm surprised at what is being advised.

What are your leak-down numbers?
What are you seeing on the dyno for oil pressures, AF ratios, and oil pressure curve?
What are you doing for a case venting system? Is your relatively minor oil consumption leaving the case past the rings or down the intake? What are your case pressures on the dyno?
Has the consumption increased or always used this much?
Have you had your fuel injectors on a dyno? Need tested for both flow and video of flow pattern.
Have you looked at the overall health/condition of your ignition system?
Have you checked on the dyno if maybe your high rpm time at the track is resulting in too much windage? Oil level too high, or poor quality pan?

You are a long way from knowing that you need to rebuild the motor. Regardless, oil viscosity choice is more related to oil pressures and as built clearances than desired oil consumption.

[J R Jones]

Methinks the end in mind here is a new more powerful engine. Oil consumption is minutiae.
There is the chance a new engine will have similar oil consumption, especially if it is a DIY without the suggested investigation.
jim

[CraigS]

I'd do the looking as far as compression and leakdown testing as well as checking the pvc system. But I would not take anything apart. I'd talk to Mike about what you would like and the cost. If Mike's # is within budget, I'd immediately put the engine up for sale as is so the buyer can ride in the car and know it runs. Get his help pulling it. Otherwise you are selling a bunch of worn parts that happen to be in the form of an engine but a buyer is taking a chance.

[Ducky2009]

Have you tried a compression test yet. Take all the plugs out and run a compression test, then squirt a little oil thru the spark plug hole and test it again. It compression goes up, rings are most likely the culprit.
Next possibility, valve seals.

[Ford & Jeep Fan]

Engine is a .030 over 1990 302 with trickflow cam, heads, intake.
I've been running Royal Purple 5w30.

........

Several (not all) spark plugs appear oil fouled. I originally thought I was running rich. On drives with others they have mentioned that when I accelerate hard there is black smoke from the exhaust. Which led me to believe it was running rich at the top of the RPM band. I've since done a base computer reset, new MAF sensors, throttle body clean and tune. Seems all spot on now. I'm wondering now if it is less black then believed and if Royal Purple burns darker then the traditional blue/grey.

So anyway... I'm wondering if my thinking is correct and also mulling over my future plans of engine rebuild vs buying a motor from Forte/Blueprint/other. Doing a sanity check on the idea of pulling my engine and taking it to a local machine shop and having it rebuilt as a 347. Trying to do a serious look on a budget friendly path forward as well is eeek out about 420-450HP as a goal. I would also like a more traditional "Cobra" engine look. Of course an 8 stack injection system like the Engles is a dream but those are pretty costly so not sure how'd that fit in the budget friendly path.

You said it has a Trick flow intake,....is this a EFI intake? Made something like the OEM EFI intake?? THE OEM one has the PVC valve in the very back of the intake over the lifter valley. If so this could be the issue if it is mainly after hard acceleration.
Have you given any thought to a catch can to see it that might be the problem??.

[john42]

You said it has a Trick flow intake,....is this a EFI intake? Made something like the OEM EFI intake?? THE OEM one has the PVC valve in the very back of the intake over the lifter valley. If so this could be the issue if it is mainly after hard acceleration.
Have you given any thought to a catch can to see it that might be the problem??.

Took it to a performance shop and this is exactly what they are having me do. He suspects it’s a PVC issue and nothing more.

[CraigS]

Could well be. I bought my MkII w/ a 351 in it and thought maybe I should be a good citizen and ad a pcv valve system. First autocross I was fogging for bugs the second half of the run. I pulled the hose off the carb base and wire tied a piece of towel around it to capture any oil that came out and capped the carb nipple. Problem solved. The more permanent solution was a catch can w/ some baffles that I drained once in a while.

[J R Jones]

Could well be. I bought my MkII w/ a 351 in it and thought maybe I should be a good citizen and ad a pcv valve system. First autocross I was fogging for bugs the second half of the run. I pulled the hose off the carb base and wire tied a piece of towel around it to capture any oil that came out and capped the carb nipple. Problem solved. The more permanent solution was a catch can w/ some baffles that I drained once in a while.

When we raced SBFs in SCCA we built a Boss 302 TA car mostly with the Factory (race) manuals. Ford recognized that oil was retained in the top of the engine. The factory fix was four drain hoses from rocker arm covers to the pan; yeah not inspired. Ford did not acknowledge the "elephant" that too much oil went up and not enough was available to the crankshaft. We had to replace rod & main bearings every race weekend.
Years later Jack Roush designed an oil system that corrected the distribution. The 351W and C had larger main bearing journals that were more challenging for the poor design.
jim

[CraigS]

That sure makes sense JR. That 351 and the upgrade to a 408 always blew way more oil out into the catch can than I thought should be normal. I spent a lot of time welding in much larger baffles in the valve covers, welded on stacks w/ baffles to the top of the VCs etc. The catch can had a bunch of baffles in it and the common small air filters on the top. The filters were always slightly damp.
190894

[J R Jones]

Craig, We did the exotic manifold, quad breather system too with acceptable results. We might assume the ring blow-by and CC pumping characteristics are not unusual on this engine. The "Boss" heads are unusual.
The intake plenum had so little vacuum that when we added a power brake booster it did not work in race circumstances. We bought a Chevrolet vacuum storage tank (for headlight doors?) and that provided enough vacuum capacity for race braking. Mountain downhill might be another thing. Anyway, perhaps that low vacuum characteristic handicaps the PCV.
jim

Historical document, do not try this at home:
https://www.classicindustries.com/product/all-years/ford/mustang/parts/fd6036.html?gclid=Cj0KCQjw1a6EBhC0ARIsAOiTkrGPeB-CtbDSCdH9qt2_oFSsdA7Go50Ty_rGqUp_ADEPFbjoLg-Awv0aAqlZEALw_wcB

[john42]

Well.... that quickly escalated. A few weeks ago on a Southern New Hampshire fall Cobra drive... After our lunch stop things just started feeling weird. Loss of power, engine sounding off like some one stuck a banana up my tailpipe. I got it home and after turning off the engine I could see a faint hint of what looked like steam coming out from under the hood. I opened the hood and the steam was coming from the oil filler cap. The moment I removed it I got an oil/antifreeze foam mix burbling out. Pulled the spark plugs and the left rear and right #3 cylinders also had a foaming mix. Repairable? debatable. would need a significant tear down to get to the exact cause. So fast forward to today.

Purchased a brand new Ford Racing Boss 347 and a Sniper 2 EFI from Fortes.

My 16 year old son and I are heading to the Traveling builder in a couple of weeks to do the engine swap. The goal being that my son and I will do 90% of the work and Mark can yell at us about doing it wrong. :-)

After the swap my son and I will tear down the old motor and sell off what's good. My hope is that the much newer/high performance parts are still good like the Trickflow heads, intake, etc.

Living local to Fortes and being a days drive to the Traveling builder really has its' upsides!

[kirby]

Oh man sorry to hear that. I was just going to mention that an oil analysis will show a lot of symptoms before catastrophic failure and they are quite reasonable.

[Ford & Jeep Fan]

Well.... that quickly escalated.........

After the swap my son and I will tear down the old motor and sell off what's good. My hope is that the much newer/high performance parts are still good like the Trickflow heads, intake, etc.
.....

You might find all the parts usable,...It might have just popped the head gaskets.