Creative engine removal.

[rponfick]

I am looking for out side the box thinkers to comment on my engine removal/install idea. I sold my cherry picker and engine stand at a recent garage sale, as at my 81 years, I didn’t think I would remove any more engines. Well times change and I need a winter project.
My 351W has a flat tappet cam and I want to change it to a roller cam. Since my Edelbrock alum heads do not support a roller cam, they will need to be changed also. In looking at trying this with the engine in car, I decided all that work would be much easier out of the car.
I think I can use my 4 post lift rear crossmember to attach engine hoist chains to and get enough vertical lift to remove the engine. Rolling the car back and forth to loosen, and leave tranny in, and then roll the car backwards and lower engine.
What say you knowledgeable guys? Is this a crazy idea?
Ralph

[gbranham]

Seems like more work than just swapping the heads and cam while the engine is still in the car.

[Al_C]

Ralph, While I agree that changing heads and cam would be easier outside of the car, the real question is "how much easier?". Pulling the engine in the manner you propose is still a pain. Is it worth it in your mind to do all that effort of getting the motor out so you can have an easier time changing heads? Don't forget, you have to get that big hunk of iron back IN the car, too.

In my mind, a small block has LOTS of room in a roadster. I believe you'll be able to get at everything you need to without undue stress. I'd propose removing the hood, leaving the engine in place, and working on it that way. As you said, it's a winter project, so it doesn't sound like there is a lot or urgency in getting it done. In my humble opinion, pulling the engine is more trouble than not.

[rponfick]

Ralph, While I agree that changing heads and cam would be easier outside of the car, the real question is "how much easier?". Pulling the engine in the manner you propose is still a pain. Is it worth it in your mind to do all that effort of getting the motor out so you can have an easier time changing heads? Don't forget, you have to get that big hunk of iron back IN the car, too.

In my mind, a small block has LOTS of room in a roadster. I believe you'll be able to get at everything you need to without undue stress. I'd propose removing the hood, leaving the engine in place, and working on it that way. As you said, it's a winter project, so it doesn't sound like there is a lot or urgency in getting it done. In my humble opinion, pulling the engine is more trouble than not.

Thanks for the input. See my recent post on asking that exact question as to how easy doing this work would be in the car. Comments are interesting, and I am still weighing options. Six of one, half dozen of another.
Ralph

[chmhasy]

If you decide to pull the engine you might as well change the clutch, and throw-out bearing.

[weendoggy]

Not a crazy idea at all. I've done it several times. The key is to get the lift as close as you can to the body (lower air pressure in tires if needed, but not too low). I did mine about an inch or so. Then make the lift chain as tight as you can without any slack. This is important because you may not get the lift high enough to clear the engine if you don't. As the engine comes up you can roll the car backward to clear the nose as it comes out.
Oh, you can do this with the transmission in the car too. You just have to make a roller stabilizer to keep the trans level, so to speak, or have a helper with a floor jack. Or, you can remove the transmission first. I don't pull mine this way anymore because I now use a chain hoist. I also leave the transmission in the car, even though people say it can't be done. I show it on YouTube to prove it can. Good luck.

Doing it out of the car is much cleaner and safer. If the heads are studded, good luck with that in the car. Just the idea of doing all of this bending over a small car is insane in my book when you can have the engine out in about three hours or less. jmo

[JohnK]

My back is hurting just thinking about doing that work in the car. If it were me, I'd pull the engine. Can you rent an engine hoist or find a friend that has one that you can borrow? The 4 post lift is definitely strong enough to do the job. The only question, as Weendoggy points out, is whether you can lift the engine high enough to get it out of the car.

[rponfick]

Not a crazy idea at all. I've done it several times. The key is to get the lift as close as you can to the body (lower air pressure in tires if needed, but not too low). I did mine about an inch or so. Then make the lift chain as tight as you can without any slack. This is important because you may not get the lift high enough to clear the engine if you don't. As the engine comes up you can roll the car backward to clear the nose as it comes out.
Oh, you can do this with the transmission in the car too. You just have to make a roller stabilizer to keep the trans level, so to speak, or have a helper with a floor jack. Or, you can remove the transmission first. I don't pull mine this way anymore because I now use a chain hoist. I also leave the transmission in the car, even though people say it can't be done. I show it on YouTube to prove it can. Good luck.

Doing it out of the car is much cleaner and safer. If the heads are studded, good luck with that in the car. Just the idea of doing all of this bending over a small car is insane in my book when you can have the engine out in about three hours or less. jmo

Thanks for addressing my original question regarding my engine removal question. I like to work on an engine when you have ready access to all the parts you need to take off and then replace and seal properly replacing. It may be more time consuming, but that is not an aim for me.
Ralph

[GoDadGo]

One Man's Lift Is Another Man's Engine Hoist!
Just remember to lift the rear of the car to make things easier.

[rthomas98]

As opposed to pulling the engine. Have you thought about pulling the body and getting better access that way and leave it in the car?

[CraigS]

Yes you can and should. I use a come-a-long from an eye in the ceiling. I use a 1x2 across the two footboxes and a ratchet strap to support the trans. That way I can roll the car forward and back w/o dealing w/ a floor jack. As you pull up on the engine keep tightening the strap. Once the motor mounts are clear that is high enough. I recommend a good engine leveler so you can align the engine block w/ the bell housing. As you try to get the trans and engine mated nothing else matters other than the block is parallel w/ the housing. When I get them close I push the car forward 2-3 inches and block it. That way gravity is giving the engine a slight push rearward as you wiggle and adjust. Before reinstalling, get a couple of bolts same size as the top two bell housing/block bolts but an inch longer. Cut the heads off, taper that end and cut a screwdriver slot in it too. Hand screw the bolts into the block so you have guide pins. It amazes me how easy the engine comes out w/o the trans. All it needs to do is go up to clear the engine mounts, then forward 4 inches so the input shaft is out of the clutch, and then straight up. Much, much easier than all the gyrations needed to get eng/trans out as a unit.

[Jeff Kleiner]

As opposed to pulling the engine. Have you thought about pulling the body and getting better access that way and leave it in the car?

Not to offend, but that makes absolutely no sense.

Jeff

[rponfick]

Not to offend, but that makes absolutely no sense.

Jeff

Jeff, I suspect the comment previous to yours was just a bit of sarcasm at my methods.
Ralph

[egchewy79]

Jeff, I suspect the comment previous to yours was just a bit of sarcasm at my methods.
Ralph

he was responding to the post about removing the body to get easier access to the engine.

[PG_Cobra]

81 and still doing big stuff.

I'm impressed!

Gives hope for this 71 year old. I'll keep my hoist as well as my 4 post lift

[rponfick]

81 and still doing big stuff.

I'm impressed!

Gives hope for this 71 year old. I'll keep my hoist as well as my 4 post lift

Wise person.. Keep you engine hoist until you are in the nursing home.
Ralph

[Rdone585]

If it's a 5.0L you don't have to pull the heads (just the intake) to change the flat tappet lifters to roller lifters. But, are you sure your heads aren't compatible with a roller cam? I'd be surprised if they can't be used. You'll need to change to roller rockers, may need to change the springs on the lifters to optimize the performance, and likely the pushrods, but other than that... Heads are expensive now. Check around to make sure you can't use them before you start buying new heads, if that's what you are planning.

[rthomas98]

Jeff, I suspect the comment previous to yours was just a bit of sarcasm at my methods.
Ralph

No sarcasm at all, also no offense taken. I replaced the iron heads to aluminum ones and the camshaft in my car with the body off which made it much easier to do because it wasn't in the way. I didn't feel like pulling the engine back out again and then try to stick it back. Not messing with the bolts on the bellhousing if you are doing just the engine was huge plus for me. Given the method you want to pull it, limits possible damage as well. If not feasible for your situation no worries. Twas just an idea, nothing more.

[rponfick]

If it's a 5.0L you don't have to pull the heads (just the intake) to change the flat tappet lifters to roller lifters. But, are you sure your heads aren't compatible with a roller cam? I'd be surprised if they can't be used. You'll need to change to roller rockers, may need to change the springs on the lifters to optimize the performance, and likely the pushrods, but other than that... Heads are expensive now. Check around to make sure you can't use them before you start buying new heads, if that's what you are planning.

It is a 5.8L, 351w, with Edelbrock E-Street heads, which state in their specs as designed for use with flat tappet cams with less than .550 lift, and the valve and seat combination is not recommended for roller cams. I asked Edelbrock if they could be used and they said I would upgrade to the Performer RPM heads. Not sure if this is their way to sell more heads, or if there is some legitimate reason with spring/valve component they used in these heads.
Thanks, Ralph

[CraigS]

There are others more knowledgable than me but my take is that the max of .550 lift could be the problem they are talking about. Maybe it needs valves w/ slightly longer stems to allow more lift? And of course new springs etc. Other than that I don't see how a head cares what type cam moves the pushrods. Maybe they assume that a wilder cam means expectations of higher rpms = more flow requirements and the ports are not sized for that? But that would simply be a somewhat less than optimum combination rather than a deal breaker. Hopefully others w/ more engine knowledge will chime in.

[jab351w]

It is a 5.8L, 351w, with Edelbrock E-Street heads, which state in their specs as designed for use with flat tappet cams with less than .550 lift, and the valve and seat combination is not recommended for roller cams. I asked Edelbrock if they could be used and they said I would upgrade to the Performer RPM heads. Not sure if this is their way to sell more heads, or if there is some legitimate reason with spring/valve component they used in these heads.
Thanks, Ralph

The E-Street heads can be made to work with a roller cam, just need to swap to appropriate valve springs, preferably whatever is recommended by the cam manufacturer. You'll want to verify spring installed height, piston-to-valve clearance, and get the correct length pushrods, but you'd have to do at least the last two if swapping heads anyway. But it's up to you.

[Railroad]

The E-Steet heads are economy heads for flat tappet engines. Edelbrock did not include this information on initial sales, but did admit the issue as sales increased. The spring pockets are smaller than the usual springs used. I bought one of the first sets and was advised how to correct the issue by a knowledgeable racer.
It involved, at a minimum, in a spring swap. I should have looked at swapping valves to a better quality, also. The springs I used were for an LS engine. I might have the box, if anyone is serious about upgrading and need the numbers. I have not used the heads, but have no doubt the springs with do the job. I checked the on seat pressure and at lift pressure, but do not recall the numbers. I cleaned out the pockets, antiseized the stems and lapped the valves. There was a little interference in the spring fit in the pocket. I should have taken a die grinder and relieved the inside circumference and might do all of the above, if I ever use them.
My take is, the heads were well cast and finished, Edelbrock just used low grade parts to assemble. The Edelbrock people were up front and clear about any issues.
Some lifters are taller and will not install with the heads on.

[Norm B]

I have removed the engine twice while leaving the transmission in the car. I unbolted the motor mounts from the block and left them bolted to the frame to make it easier. That way you don’t need to lift the engine much at all. Just enough to take the weight off the mounts and then it can slide straight ahead off the bell housing. An engine leveller makes the task much easier. My cup holders come out and give me access to the tunnel to feed a ratchet strap through to support the transmission.
To reinstall the engine loosen the motor mounts on the frame so you can get the bolts back in the block while the engine is still hanging from the lift.

HTH

Norm

[Kbl7td]

Heads and cam could have been changed twice already with the duration of this thread!

[rponfick]

Heads and cam could have been changed twice already with the duration of this thread!

Yes, but you would have missed all this interesting conversation.
I use this site for entertainment (just like Bring a Trailer), and to seek the experiences of those more experienced with these cars than I am.
Peace, Ralph