4 point harness not acceptable and gas tank is not protected from side impacts

[Jonathan D]

I live in New Brunswick Canada and want to share my experience so far and see if anyone has been down this road that can offer advice or if anyone has any suggestions. I wanted to know what I was in for when my car was finished so I contacted my motor vehicle office who gave me a list of engineers in my province and said one of these engineers has to come and inspect my car before they can issue a VIN. I called the closest engineer and told him I had a factory five and asked him if there was anything I should keep in mind as I'm building.

We talked awhile, he knows factory fives and here is the list and his basic commentary, starting with that I expected

1 - Reverse light
2 - Wipers
3 - Heater or some form of defrost
4 - Windshield washer (was not on my radar but ok, i can add that)
5 - Fire barrier, said at one time ffr did not have the cockpit fully protected, some area was simply fiberglass between the occupants and engine etc. I explained the current design and how I actually upgraded the firewall to a thicker piece of aluminum and things appear to be ok on this front
6 - Gas tank - He said FFR has not protected the tank from side impacts, too exposed and did not offer a solution
7 - Racing harnesses are not acceptable unless there is a full roll cage. Must have regular 3-point seatbelt, says occupants will naturally move to the center of the car in a rollover, protecting them. The 4 point harness will hold the occupants in a dangerous position and the roll bar is basically not recognized as meeting any safety standard as they need to have side impact protection as well and have the bar running from the top of the hoop to the lower firewall to be effective.

I think that sums it up....feeling discouraged at the moment but there are other engineers on the list, so a second opinion is possible.

[edwardb]

I'd get another engineer.

5. Don't think so.

6. It's sitting inside a steel frame on both sides. What more is he looking for?

7. 3-point better than a racing harness? No words...

[RoadRacer]

It's not specific to your region - you can visit any inspection location or dmv anywhere and get different answers depending on the time of day it seems.

Keep going down the list until you find the right person. It's not the car. I have so many similar stories from when registering my car..

[Hoooper]

Hes not wrong about the gas tank, theres basically no protection. Its got a steel frame that designed just to support the weight of the tank but its 3/4" thin wall square tube, not going to protect the gas tank from anything bigger than a bicycle in a crash. Whether youre required in your province to have actual protection and to what extent is a question for someone with local knowledge. If something better is actually required you might be able to take some inspiration from the challenge car chassis. I went for a continuous bent tube off the 2x3 end of the frame but its pretty much the same idea https://www.factoryfive.com/galleries/challenge-car/challenge-car-chassis/

[Jonathan D]

Hes not wrong about the gas tank, theres basically no protection. Its got a steel frame that designed just to support the weight of the tank but its 3/4" thin wall square tube, not going to protect the gas tank from anything bigger than a bicycle in a crash. Whether youre required in your province to have actual protection and to what extent is a question for someone with local knowledge. If something better is actually required you might be able to take some inspiration from the challenge car chassis. I went for a continuous bent tube off the 2x3 end of the frame but its pretty much the same idea https://www.factoryfive.com/galleries/challenge-car/challenge-car-chassis/

Thanks, I never looked that closely at the challenge car before today, certainly a bit more protection around the tank.

[Jonathan D]

As James said here, feels like getting different answers on whats acceptable is all part of the process of building the car.

[JohnK]

Funny that they flagged the side impact protection of the gas tank as an issue, but not rear-end protection. IMO, getting rear-ended is far more likely than getting hit from the side, and the roadster chassis provides essentially zero protection for the fuel tank from either the side or the rear. Heck, my rear frame got bent by the powder coater because they pushed on it when wheeling the frame around the shop. I had to have it cut off and replaced with a new rear frame section. What does that tell you about how much protection the frame gives you against rear-end collisions. :eek:

I agree - find another engineer.

[edwardb]

The challenge car certainly has a lot more bars and more strength. Including added side and back bars on the rear of the chassis. Factory Five's website has a gallery of pictures of the chassis. But keep in mind it also uses a fuel cell as standard. Different ball game than the standard Mustang tank.

[GoDadGo]

If you want safety, don't build a Cobra because it is basically a vintage a race car.

You want to have fun, here is what it is like to drive one.

https://youtu.be/81OVZnHWd2A

This is why we build them:

https://youtu.be/vghqmD3juEE

[David Williamson]

Talk with another inspector.
#5 FFR has never had any fibre glass anywhere except in the body. don't think he knows much about our cars.
I don't know of any gas tank fires from a crashed car? non-crash engine fires yes, leaks or electrical.
there are others who have passed inspection just need get with the right inspector to find how?
David W

[Jeff Kleiner]

The tank is no more protected from side impact when it's in the Mustang that it came from. There are hundreds of FFR roadsters that have been inspected and registered in Canada; as others have said find someone else to work with.

Jeff

[Mike.Bray]

Sounds to me this inspector must have a Lionel train set at home and that qualifies him to be an engineer. You need a real engineer.

Canada can certainly be strange to work with. My company builds (very expansive) equipment for the food industry and we have installations in over 200 countries. Everything we build meets or exceeds the latest European CE regulations which are very concise and accepted by all of the countries we sell to, except Canada. Out of 200+ countries in the world we have to use different standards for Canada. They are ridiculous.

[AC Bill]

Fire protection between the cockpit and the engine compartment is lacking between the sides of the footboxes and the body. Stuffing that void with fiberglass insulation would add some initial protection.

[Jonathan D]

Thanks to everyone for your comments, some really good points here and I will be moving to the next engineer on the list.

[Jeff_J.]

Finding an inspector with Classic or Vintage car experience is KEY.. My area has an online document which outlines what is required with description and exemptions. For example if the car does not have a top (roadster) I don't have to have a defroster, they figure without a top you won't be driving it when it's that cold. (don't think many would drive these when there is frost on the ground anyways). I did a quick look and there is a "NB Station Manual" which lists what a mechanic would look for in a Vehicle inspection but it didn't have a lot of additional information but didn't list any requirement for reinforcement around the fuel tank, nor did it mention that 4 point seat belts were a problem - maybe there is another document available from DMV which explains more.
Don't be discouraged - this is just the first hurdle to overcome in the building of a car, give yourself some credit for doing the research now as opposed to later. Later is usually expensive.. Good luck..

[4cobra]

Finding an inspector with Classic or Vintage car experience is KEY.. My area has an online document which outlines what is required with description and exemptions. For example if the car does not have a top (roadster) I don't have to have a defroster, they figure without a top you won't be driving it when it's that cold. (don't think many would drive these when there is frost on the ground anyways). I did a quick look and there is a "NB Station Manual" which lists what a mechanic would look for in a Vehicle inspection but it didn't have a lot of additional information but didn't list any requirement for reinforcement around the fuel tank, nor did it mention that 4 point seat belts were a problem - maybe there is another document available from DMV which explains more.
Don't be discouraged - this is just the first hurdle to overcome in the building of a car, give yourself some credit for doing the research now as opposed to later. Later is usually expensive.. Good luck..

The head of BC's government truck inspections did my daytona coupe. He left out bumpers, no crash test required, looked at lights, steering and brakes mainly. Said you treat it as a 1965 car, what did it have, NOTHING.
Perry.

[Jonathan D]

Thanks guys, you have all made some really great points and I'm looking forward to getting past this portion when the time actually comes.

[Dave 53]

I'd get another engineer.

5. Don't think so.

6. It's sitting inside a steel frame on both sides. What more is he looking for?

7. 3-point better than a racing harness? No words...

Respectfully, a 3 point is absolutely safer than a 4 point in most situations for 3 reasons.

1. Unless the 4 point has ASM or similar technology, submarining is an issue. https://www.schrothracing.com/post/anti-submarining-technology With a 4 point, as the body moves forward, the lap belt is pulled up allowing submarining. With a 3 point, the lap belt tighens as the body moves forward which prevents submarining.

2. A harness should not be used unless the car has a roll cage or at least can pass a true "broom stick test". Unless adequately protect, you don't want your body held upright if the car is upside down. You want to be able to slouch over.

3. A harness is ill-advised without a HANS or similar neck protection. Without separate neck protection, one is probably better off with a 3 point.

Most track events reject 4 point belts (without ASM). I would be surprised to find a legitimate race sanctioning body that allows 4 point belts. So by definition, a 4 point is NOT a "racing harness".

Having said all that, I admit to being in violation of #3 above when I drive my 818 on the street, so no judgement...

[Nigel Allen]

Retractable seat belts are mandatory for registration in South Australia. It would also be an issue to use harnesses with the high back seats we are required to install. A solution is to build a pedestal to mount the retractors on and install it in the trunk. To get enough height for the shoulder strap to be compliant, we put the retractors mechanisms in the centre of the vehicle. They do work well. It is easier to lean forward to see past parked cars when when pulling out of T intersection, reverse parking etc. Also dont need to make adjustments for different passengers.

189745 189746 189747

Harnesses can still be installed, they are just not to be used as the primary restraint on public roads.

Hope this helps.

The engineering process is quite similar in Australia. Our engineers have to inspect the build at several points along the way. It is generally a very expensive and somewhat stressful process.

Best of luck and dont be discouraged! This forum can help you to engineer a way through almost anything.

Cheers,

Nige

[Jonathan D]

Retractable seat belts are mandatory for registration in South Australia. It would also be an issue to use harnesses with the high back seats we are required to install. A solution is to build a pedestal to mount the retractors on and install it in the trunk. To get enough height for the shoulder strap to be compliant, we put the retractors mechanisms in the centre of the vehicle. They do work well. It is easier to lean forward to see past parked cars when when pulling out of T intersection, reverse parking etc. Also dont need to make adjustments for different passengers.

189745 189746 189747

Harnesses can still be installed, they are just not to be used as the primary restraint on public roads.

Hope this helps.

The engineering process is quite similar in Australia. Our engineers have to inspect the build at several points along the way. It is generally a very expensive and somewhat stressful process.

Best of luck and dont be discouraged! This forum can help you to engineer a way through almost anything.

Cheers,

Nige

This is a really neat setup and it looks better in the car than I imagined it would. I understand the highest mount being in the center of the car but would having the sholder strap in the middle still allow your body to move to the center of the car in a rollover?

[Jonathan D]

Respectfully, a 3 point is absolutely safer than a 4 point in most situations for 3 reasons.

1. Unless the 4 point has ASM or similar technology, submarining is an issue. https://www.schrothracing.com/post/anti-submarining-technology With a 4 point, as the body moves forward, the lap belt is pulled up allowing submarining. With a 3 point, the lap belt tighens as the body moves forward which prevents submarining.

2. A harness should not be used unless the car has a roll cage or at least can pass a true "broom stick test". Unless adequately protect, you don't want your body held upright if the car is upside down. You want to be able to slouch over.

3. A harness is ill-advised without a HANS or similar neck protection. Without separate neck protection, one is probably better off with a 3 point.

Most track events reject 4 point belts (without ASM). I would be surprised to find a legitimate race sanctioning body that allows 4 point belts. So by definition, a 4 point is NOT a "racing harness".

Having said all that, I admit to being in violation of #3 above when I drive my 818 on the street, so no judgement...

Has anyone ever heard from Dave Smith on this? One would expect considerable time and effort went into choosing the restraint system so I'm guessing there is some why's and why nots out there.

[Avalanche325]

Respectfully, a 3 point is absolutely safer than a 4 point in most situations for 3 reasons.



FFRs have a 5 point harness, not a 4 point harness. If you don't USE all five, that's another issue.

[JohnK]

FFRs have a 5 point harness, not a 4 point harness. If you don't USE all five, that's another issue.

I do agree with you 100% on this. No excuse to not use the sub strap. That said, I do think FFR could (should) do a better job of enabling proper install of the sub strap. I know that people like to say that these cars are not a simple bolt-together kit, and that some creativity and problem-solving is needed when building, but I don't think that critical safety features is an area where people should have to go off-script to come up with a proper solution. As the kit comes from FFR, there is no way to install the sub strap in a safe way. Wrapping it around the front of the seat is completely inadequate, and leaving it off entirely because there's no clear place to bolt it to is even worse. The seats that FFR provides should have a slot for the sub strap, and there should be a properly reinforced mounting point on the frame or ideally on the seat frame to bolt the sub strap to. Then (and only then) is the 5 point harness that FFR provides safe to use. If they won't do either of those, then they should at least provide a harness that doesn't require a 5th point, like the Schroth mentioned above. (off my soapbox now).

[BradCraig]

Most DMV guys in US states won't even discuss safety concerns for many reasons. Only concerned about hitting the basic reqs and verifying nothing is stolen.

[FF33rod]

Each province in Canada has their own VIN/registration process unfortunately. Requirements can vary greatly. When I was researching what the '33 required here in BC I found out that qualified inspectors had a huge amount of discretion on what they were going to require. If I went to a standard vehicle garage with the average mechanics, e.g. Canadian Tire it would be a tough road to certification. So, as Jeff J mentioned above, I found an inspector that had a reputation for handling classic, vintage, custom vehicles and discussed with him what he required. There weren't a lot of safety oriented items on cars in '33 and he understood that if he required wipers, they'd only be there for the inspection etc... He focused on overall build quality, brakes, lights, etc... Hopefully, you can find someone similar in New Brunswick. I suggest going to some car shows and cars and coffees and ask around. See if you can find a good reference...

It could be worse, our friends "down under" seem to have to provide chassis stress tests and all sorts of crap in order to get on the road...

Steve