big engine, manual transmission and brake lights... a cautionary tale

[AA-ron]

Ok, file this under "newbie with a Cobra".
I had a slight scare over the weekend where someone behind me slammed on the brakes to avoid hitting me as we approached stopped traffic. The car then pulled to my side and said "your brake lights didn't come on until you stopped". It was then that it occured to me that with such a light car, and a big engine, and a manual transmission, that I rely on downshift for a significant amount of my braking. So in other words, I'm not hitting my brake pedal as often, and when I do, it's later in the braking cycle. So, moving forward, whether I need to or not, I'm going to be using my brakes a bit more, at least enough to trigger my brake lights.
This was one of those "duh" moments for me, and I was very lucky that it ended the way that it did. The funny thing is that I spent all this extra effort on my third brake light, but unless I hit that middle pedal, it's just a funny looking spot on my rollbar.
I hope this tidbit of odd info helps some other " cobra newbie" out there.

[edwardb]

Good point and something to keep in mind. But I don't have a lot of sympathy for the other driver. Shouldn't only depend on brake lights in front of you to detect closing speed. I see this all the time. Some people just don't seem to have this sense. That's why when I'm braking, especially when a little harder and when approaching intersections, I'm always watching my rear view mirror to make sure the driver behind me is also slowing down.

[MPTech]

Just saw this posted on Club Cobra last week. Gear Brake Tail-light Module http://www.clubcobra.com/forums/all-cobra-talk/147156-gear-brake-tailight-module.html

I never considered it before, but I see the issue (and there are more Idiot drivers on the road these days).
May be worth investigating further.....
https://www.amazon.com/Brake-Victory-Smart-Light-Module/dp/B0170ME34O/ref=pd_ybh_a_sccl_25/136-7675330-9039103?pd_rd_w=zncI9&content-id=amzn1.sym.67f8cf21-ade4-4299-b433-69e404eeecf1&pf_rd_p=67f8cf21-ade4-4299-b433-69e404eeecf1&pf_rd_r=GYSVX5EM40Z1P9FGTT93&pd_rd_wg=tns1R&pd_rd_r=4396d1ed-d621-486e-9764-9de7689fadcc&pd_rd_i=B0170ME34O&psc=1

[GoDadGo]

Great post and I am actually glad that I usually coast with clutch in when getting ready to stop.
Seldom do I use the engine to slow the car except when we are corner carving on the back roads.
For the record, I NEVER thought about this scenario before so thanks for posting this thread.

[cc2Arider]

Good post and observations...but I suspect the other driver used this as a defense mechanism...:rolleyes:

Craig C

[chmhasy]

I always leave more space from the guy in front of me so I have the ability to slow down slowly and I don't have to slam on the brakes. and I always look for an escape route if needed. From motorcycle training. If you can, even if you don't like riding a motorcycle the training is great and you learn a lot of information.

[42Bfast]

Dang-it!!
Would y’all please stop spending my money! I’ll never finish this build if y’all keep coming up with things I need to add!

[scrubs]

To be safe, I would confirm the brake switch is correctly adjusted to close the circuit as soon as the slightest pressure is applied to the brake pedal (you may have done this and can ignore, just wanna remind people it's adjustable).

J

[AC Bill]

I am in the habit of downshifting and engine braking as well. My dad was with me one time, and told me that replacing brakes are a lot cheaper and far more simple, than replacing the clutch. I usually double clutch but I suppose even still, there is going to be some wear and tear on the clutch. It also works the cable a lot more too.

[MB750]

To be safe, I would confirm the brake switch is correctly adjusted to close the circuit as soon as the slightest pressure is applied to the brake pedal (you may have done this and can ignore, just wanna remind people it's adjustable).

J

THIS!

I didn't have brake lights installed, but I could check continuity in the switch. At first the switch didn't change state until the pedal was down a few inches and the brakes were already dragging.

[MPTech]

But Torque Braking just SOUNDS SO MUCH COOLER, than pushing in the clutch and applying the brakes.

On a serious note, I don't get it, but drivers don't pay attention anymore and the newer cars have Brake lights that are eye-level / high-intensity LEDs and probably close to 2 sq ft of lights, compared to our 6sq inch, small bulb, bumper level tail-lights.
You've got to have eyes on the back of your head with these cars.
I mounted a third LED brake light in the license plate holder, and I still watch behind me too!
This was just another option, POST your results if you did anything similar or familiar with this "Gear Brake Light" I think it's intended for motorcycles, so thought others may have first-hand knowledge.

[Windsor]

Just saw this posted on Club Cobra last week. Gear Brake Tail-light Module http://www.clubcobra.com/forums/all-cobra-talk/147156-gear-brake-tailight-module.html

I never considered it before, but I see the issue (and there are more Idiot drivers on the road these days).
May be worth investigating further.....
https://www.amazon.com/Brake-Victory-Smart-Light-Module/dp/B0170ME34O

What if you install the module backwards? Will your brake lights come on while under hard acceleration? :D

gearbrake.com is defunct (parked domain)

If you go to the seller's website (suncoastcyclesports.com), it's listed as "New Old Stock: Packaging May Vary."

The only other thing close to this is a g-activated light module you stick on the back of your helmet. That would fix the "this end forward" problem, but converting the helmet-mount to your vehicle would be a trick.

Sounds like a neat project to play with an accelerometer.

[F500guy]

I keep thinking about options for a high mount 3rd brake light. thinking I may put a wire in the trunk for if I find a good option. i am a ways off so still time for planning that.

[GT53]

Good point and something to keep in mind. But I don't have a lot of sympathy for the other driver. Shouldn't only depend on brake lights in front of you to detect closing speed. I see this all the time. Some people just don't seem to have this sense. That's why when I'm braking, especially when a little harder and when approaching intersections, I'm always watching my rear view mirror to make sure the driver behind me is also slowing down.

Paul is spot on here. Tailgating seems to have become a “sport” these days. Whether it be on an interstate highway or on a residential street there is an ample supply of idiots who just don’t get it. These days I drive as though I am riding a motorcycle in expectation of EVERY driver out there doing something incredibly stupid. I’m usually not disappointed.

Greg

[MPTech]

I keep thinking about options for a high mount 3rd brake light. thinking I may put a wire in the trunk for if I find a good option. i am a ways off so still time for planning that.

Here's my 3rd brake light, without it appearing as a bump on the back of the body / trunk.
189233

[Rdone585]

True story... I'm driving on the interstate in TN, heading east toward Nashville into the morning sun. Semi truck on my rear bumper. All traffic is moving low 70s. Come over the hill and the interstate is at a standstill - all lanes. Since the semi was right on my tail, I braked off the interstate onto the shoulder. When we stopped the semi's front bumper was even with our driver door, only a short distance from the car in front of me. I thanked God for saving me that day. It was a close call any way you look at it. Gotta be aware of everything that's going on around you at all times, no matter what you're driving.

[J R Jones]

Ron,
I have driven a lot of vehicles from 2 to 18 wheels, from 300 to tens of thousands of pounds. 40 inches high to 13 feet.
Significant factors for me is tracking my driving envelope (making it a comfortable size) and acknowledging the static and dynamic characteristics of my vehicle. Some of your vehicle works for you, and some must be managed carefully. Bonehead drivers must be managed as well.
A well engineered and equipped vehicle makes the job easier. Trucks, RVs and two wheelers demand a high level of awareness and compromise.
I evolved to smooth, intuitive driving minimizing reactionary control. Passive deceleration is my friend and I never augment it with downshifting. Despite that, my brakes last unusually long.
On the highway I am finger tapping the cruise control and steering with a degree or two.
Not only do I know what is way-ahead, I know what is behind and I find a way to maintain a gap, especially if front end damage is evident. I am also aware of the deltas of speed increments and duration. If I push the speed threshold, I understand the time benefit. If I have to compromise my chosen speed, I recognize the magnitude of inconvenience and the risk of an extraordinary maneuver to overcome the inconvenience.
I am PO'd that my RV cruise control has no pause function, I have to tap brakes to disengage, sending a false brake signal. OTOH I will tap brakes just to signal a hazard ahead, or that I want more of a gap behind.
jim

[Alex_V]

I have put alot of street miles on my motorcycles, and that's where this habit came from - I recommend flashing your brake lights a few times when the engine braking, or braking in general. Obviously excludes any emergency stoping scenarios.

Three taps on the brake pedal to flash the lights, before applying steady pressure.

[Avalanche325]

Engines are for going.

Brakes are for stopping.

Downshifting is for getting in the right gear for your next acceleration event. I downshift on the street. But I always heel/toe, so I am using the brakes and the lights are on. You really should learn to heel/toe a manual performance car. If you feel a big deceleration when you let the clutch out downshifting, you are doing it wrong. When you do it right, you don't even feel it......and it is sweeeeet.

Downshifting alone from a traction perspective is effectively applying the rear brakes only. Too much and you will find you are looking at the car that is about to hit you.

[RoadRacer]

It's not just downshifting that causes this - it is a real problem just decelerating in a v8. I can lift off the gas and the car decelerates quickly enough to surprise people due to engine braking.

So much so that at autocross or the circuit I sometimes don't need/want to brake before a long sweeper because lifting off the gas has slowed me down enough. I'm still not quite sure why this car engine brakes so "well"

[I may be using the term "engine braking" wrongly, I know that.. I think that's really a semitruck thing and involves literally shutting off fuel? But anyway.. my car decelerates like a MF when you lift off the gas]

[rich grsc]

I keep thinking about options for a high mount 3rd brake light. thinking I may put a wire in the trunk for if I find a good option. i am a ways off so still time for planning that.

189251
no idea why it's upside down???:mad:

[Norm B]

Took a motorcycle safety course years ago and one of the things that stuck with me was to flash the brake lights a couple of times before actually braking. These cars, like motorcycles, can stop a lot quicker than other vehicles on the road. I have the wires run for a high mounted brake light but haven’t got around to getting it installed. I have only been on the road for 9 years ��

[Sarcasticshrub]

As a motorcycle commuter with years on a seat in L.A traffic and rural areas, (toss in some EVOC training here and there) you get pretty hyper-villigent when it comes to your surroundings. It's been said superbly by others already but it bears repeating: You are not only paying attention to your driving but to everyone else's driving as well. Don't assume they are doing the same. Too many distracted drivers these days.

[AA-ron]

And this is why I like this forum. I grew up driving cars where the brakes were always a bit suspect (VW Bugs). I always downshifted to "save the brakes", and because its fun. However after reading through this thread and being reminded that "brakes are easier to replace than clutches", I'm going to adjust my style of braking. Again, being new to big V8's and light cars, this all makes so much sense. To make matters worse, I live in a beach town-- so lots of bathing suits walking around. And we all know that bikinis reduce braking time...
Thanks again for all the insight!!

[BRRT]

"And we all know that bikinis reduce braking time..."
I knew bikinis had many powers, but that one is new to me!

[Hoooper]

There cant be more than a handful of FFR builders who have put enough miles on their build to have worn out a clutch, at least on a street car.

Downshifting, assuming you are rev matching like you should, puts VERY little wear on the clutch. I certainly wouldnt use clutch wear as a reason not to downshift on the street.

[MB750]

Engine braking should not excessively spin the clutch, as long as your foot is not dragging the clutch pedal or you don't downshift from 5th to 1st at high speeds. I've got about a quarter million miles on manual transmissions and never replaced a clutch due to wear. One is an S-10 with 144K over 8 years, OEM clutch. Technically speaking, you really only need the clutch when leaving from a stop but it's nicer on the synchros if you use it.

My dad is 74 and always engine brakes to stop lights on his Harley over a 1/4 mile, then wonders why he's almost gotten rear-ended a few times... I remind him every time, he'll never change though.

If people like to engine brake so much, maybe they should put a vacuum switch on the manifold at like 10"Hg and wire it to a 3rd brake light.

[Jeff Kleiner]

When I first started driving my roadster over 15 years ago I soon became aware that I use my mirrors much more when I'm in it than when in the daily drivers. It may be due to a certain amount of self preservation instinct since we're more vulnerable much like with a motorcycle. You can't just pass somebody and forget them, you need to find them in your mirrors and then keep track of where they are until you're far away. You guys who are just now starting to drive them will soon realize something else; people LOVE to hang out on the rear quarters...for miles...right in our blind spot! I guess they're watching and listening---and often taking photos or cell phone videos. I drove about 250 miles last Sunday and at least 3 different times someone would just sit on my right rear; if I'd speed up so would they, if I slowed so would they. I couldn't see any of them from my center mirror but could in the side mirror. Happens. All. The. Time.

Jeff

[zee]

I am used to riding a motorcycle with a big engine, so the engine braking is strong. I learned even when I am using engine braking, I lightly tap my brakes to warn other drivers that I am slowing down.

[CraigS]

I nearly always heel and toe downshifts while I am using the brakes. It's not that it is needed, it is that I enjoy it when I do a perfect rev match.

[Railroad]

Probably already mentioned, but electronics are available that will strobe your brakes lights and/or 3rd brake light, then go solid when activated.
I would also make sure the brake light switch was adjusted to come on with the least amount of pedal activation.
I can really relate to the increase in mirror use.