NiCopp & 37* single flare ?

[OB6]

Looking to find out if anyone has had success using 37 degree single flares on NiCopp brake and fuel lines? Also, does it make a difference if the tubing is seamless or not (Inline Tubing told me theirs is not)?

[Alan_C]

A 37 degree flare kit is available for the Eastwood flaring tool. There tool is one of the best moderately priced flare tools. I have used my Eastwood flare tool to do a lot of double flares, never a problem as long as you follow directions and ream the ends of the tubing. I used NiCu line from FedHill exclusively. Not all NiCu line is quality made, I trust the FedHill product but with stuff from Amazon, I have no idea as to the quality of what they sell.

[Its Bruce]

I used 37° AN fittings/ferrules on my bulkhead arrangement between the MC's and engine bay with the remaining being double flare. The 37° fitting gave me more options for a bulkhead. No issues so far.

[Papa]

I wouldn't use 37 degree flares for the high-pressure brake lines. Those should be double flares. I'll also second the Eastwood tool, which is exactly the same as a lower cost one I've seen that comes with both 45 and 37 degree die blocks.

https://www.amazon.com/Professional-Brake-Flaring-Tool-degree/dp/B01HOXT84Y/ref=sr_1_17?hvadid=580763248022&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9028739&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=14533684292306938479&hvtargid=kwd-34242335723&hydadcr=7487_13212567&keywords=eastwood+flare+tool&qid=1690485927&sr=8-17&ufe=app_do%3Aamzn1.fos.c3015c4a-46bb-44b9-81a4-dc28e6d374b3

[Hoooper]

Nicopp is super easy to double flare for brake lines

[Mike.Bray]

I wouldn't use 37 degree flares for the high-pressure brake lines. Those should be double flares.

I'm interested in knowing why you wouldn't use AN fittings on NiCopp tubing. I admit I know nothing about NiCopp, I've never even held a piece so I'm curious about this statement.

Mike

[Papa]

I'm interested in knowing why you wouldn't use AN fittings on NiCopp tubing. I admit I know nothing about NiCopp, I've never even held a piece so I'm curious about this statement.

Mike

Mike,

It's generally accepted (required by DOT) that all brake flares be double or bubble, not single flares. Remember, if the brakes don't stop you, something else will! :p

As far as AN fitting on NiCop for fuel lines, no problem, but compression to AN is even better as tubing can split when flared.

Dave

[Its Bruce]

Mike,

It's generally accepted (required by DOT) that all brake flares be double or bubble, not single flares. Remember, if the brakes don't stop you, something else will! :p

Dave

Check your hard to flex line fitting near the wheel. My guess is that you have AT LEAST 4 single flares in your roadster's braking system.

[Papa]

Check your hard to flex line fitting near the wheel. My guess is that you have AT LEAST 4 single flares in your roadster's braking system.

Yes, the flexible lines are typically -3AN and/or banjo fittings. I think the concern is over hardline fittings, but hey, I'm not an expert.

Dave

[Mike.Bray]

Mike,

It's generally accepted (required by DOT) that all brake flares be double or bubble, not single flares.

Never heard that, going to have to look into. You sure it's now SAE? I've been using AN fittings for brake lines for over 40 years and have never had a problem with any inspection. AN fittings are superior to SAE in all aspects, that's why they're used on airplanes and helicopters.

[Papa]

Never heard that, going to have to look into. You sure it's now SAE? I've been using AN fittings for brake lines for over 40 years and have never had a problem with any inspection. AN fittings are superior to SAE in all aspects, that's why they're used on airplanes and helicopters.

Mike,

Again, I'm no expert. Here are a couple of things I came across. Take them as data points as I have no way to validate the sources.

https://brakeexperts.com/do-brake-lines-need-to-be-double-flared/

http://www.fedhillusa.com/?page=flare

[mikeinatlanta]

Massive misinformation on this thread. AN single flare are superior in every way to double flare automotive. That and the Eastwood tool is crap, especially for AN. If you want to do AN get the Rigid as a minimum.
Confusion happens when some mistake single flaring automotive fittings vs. the single flare on AN. Single flaring automotive is just plain poor workmanship, low pressure or high.

[Mike.Bray]

Massive misinformation on this thread. AN single flare are superior in every way to double flare automotive. That and the Eastwood tool is crap, especially for AN. If you want to do AN get the Rigid as a minimum.
Confusion happens when some mistake single flaring automotive fittings vs. the single flare on AN. Single flaring automotive is just plain poor workmanship, low pressure or high.

That's what I'm reading, single flare 45 degree SAE type is not allowed and I agree 100%. Not to mention almost all OEM & SAE tubing in welded steel which will not single flare without splitting. Seamless tubing single flared 37 degree with an AN fitting is at least 2-3 times stronger than an SAE tube with a 45 degree double flare. I don't see anything in Dave's links referencing AN 37 degree flares, only OEM and SAE 45 degree flares.

Agree, the Eastman flaring tool isn't great and should be avoided. For an AN flare the surface needs to be burnished. I use an Imperial flaring tool like this one (https://www.newmantools.com/imperial/ft5.html).

[Papa]

Massive misinformation on this thread. AN single flare are superior in every way to double flare automotive. That and the Eastwood tool is crap, especially for AN. If you want to do AN get the Rigid as a minimum.
Confusion happens when some mistake single flaring automotive fittings vs. the single flare on AN. Single flaring automotive is just plain poor workmanship, low pressure or high.

That's the information that had me thinking what I was. I've never had anyone explain this to me before. To me, single flare meant the same thing in any context, so I learned something new today.

Dave

[mikeinatlanta]

AN compresses the flare with a sleeve such that the tube never sees friction from the nut. An AN is a multiple use fitting. Automotive flare the nut has friction against the tube. Automotive flares are designed to be a single use fitting and technically should be replaced once taken off (although we never do). they are designed for automotive mass production.

[Alan_C]

Well the comment that the Eastwood flaring tool is crap is news to me. Now I built my MK4 10 or more years ago and, at the time, the Eastwood tool was kind of a go to tool. I personally have had no issues with mine.
Would you mind explaining why you think the Eastwood flaring tools are crap?

[mikeinatlanta]

Well the comment that the Eastwood flaring tool is crap is news to me. Now I built my MK4 10 or more years ago and, at the time, the Eastwood tool was kind of a go to tool. I personally have had no issues with mine.
Would you mind explaining why you think the Eastwood flaring tools are crap?
Happy to, but have done it here multiple times before. The Eastwood too forms a flare by pushing a die into the tube. This action puts minor imperfections on the tube that will cause an AN to leak under pressure. Not so much an issue for double flares, but huge for AN. A proper AN flaring tool forms the flare with either rollers (expensive) or a wobbling rolling die (Rigid).

Flatly, the reason you have a dominance of eastwood tool fans is simply the bind leading the blind, which is the dominant form of transfer of technical information on this and most other internet forums. Anyone speaking out is quickly silenced by an overwhelming majority of "I did it once and lived". No different than the many here who scoff at pressure testing their fittings and lines at more than shop air pressures.

Use the eastwood tool to make a single flare. Get out your 100x magnifier and take a photo of the surface of that flare. Compare it to this one. 187888

[Its Bruce]

I don't see anything in Dave's links referencing AN 37 degree flares, only OEM and SAE 45 degree flares.

There is one comment in the 2nd link supportive of 37° AN...


It is acceptable practice to single flare Cunifer™ (seamless) brake line for use with AN/37 degree fittings.

Good thread, gents. Good clarifications.

[OB6]

Well, I got a lot more out of this thread than I had hoped for. Thanks for the great discussion... much of it beyond my domain of knowledge. Good thing Mike.Bray lives down the road from me ;)

[scrubs]

Well, I got a lot more out of this thread than I had hoped for.

Why this place rocks.