Body Work Questions

[Jim S]

I am looking for some advice from those with fiberglass experience. I have done body work on metal before but this is my first time with a fiberglass body. I want to make sure the repairs I do are good, permanent repairs.

I have two issues where I am looking for advice.

1) I had Factory Five cut all the holes in the body. Overall, they did a good job but they "missed" on the roll bar diagonal tube on both sides. The hole was cut too far towards the rear of the car. See the attached picture. The grommet won't cover the hole. My question: If I just patch the crescent where the hole is too long, will that be strong enough (patch from the underside with glass mat and resin) or do I need to fill the entire hole in and re-cut it? (Other ideas also welcomed.)

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2) Neither door fits particularly well in terms of height. Both doors are as shipped by FFR. I have not trimmed them. I have the horizontal top of the door aligned with the body as you can see in the 1st picture below. (It could use a little more adjusting but that won't fix this problem.) As you can see in the other photos (driver's door shown but both fit the same), I have a 5/16" gap at the bottom of the door. The close up picture is the front corner where there is a larger gap of 7/16". If I close the gap by filling the door recess in the body with HSRF, will I have issues down the road? Assuming a desired gap 3/16", I would be adding 1/8" to 1/4" of material. Will it stay in place / not crack if someone kicks the edge of the door getting in / out?

What other choices do I have?

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[egchewy79]

I'd be sure that the body is positioned correctly before worrying about filling any gaps. The body should be around 1/4" in front of the door strikers on the frame. If you haven't already, you might need to trim the lip of the dash cowl to get it forward enough.

[Jim S]

Sorry, I should have addressed all of that in my original post.

The body is forward with the front and rear quick jack bolts in place. The body is centered and positioned in front of the door strikers by about a 3/16". It is also sitting correctly at the dash and sitting at the right height at the front. The body lip has been trimmed at the dash and cockpit rear wall leaving a small gap all along the edge. I have also checked that the 3/4" tube at the corners of the dash are not holding the body up. All the bulb seals are in place and compressed along with the foam on top of the 3/4" tubes running along side the hood.

Did I forget anything?

[hineas]

I second egchewy79's recommendations to make sure the body is positioned correctly. Is the body door flange completely in front of the door striker plate? There should be roughly 1/4" gap between the body and the striker plate. Not having the body far enough forward could be the cause for the roll bar issue..

I just finished my body work and paint a few weeks ago. Therefore, I don't know if the body work will have longevity but I followed tips from multiple people who have a lot of experience with these cars.

I ran into a lot of the same issues, they are pretty common.

To start off, I had similar issues with the roll bar holes. However, with some brute force, I was able to get the grommets to barely cover the hole. I compressed the front of the grommet and was able to get the hole covered. Initially I thought I had no chance of covering the hole, but as I worked the front of the grommet down the tube and pushed tight back into the tube, I was able to cover the hole. I don't know if that will work for you, but it is worth a try.

Your roll bar hole does appear to have a bigger gap than mine, though. You might have to fill in the hole. Me personally, I would just glass in the edge and not the entire hole. However, I would let the experts chime in on that.

The doors are a definite issue. Most people have the biggest issues with the driver's door.

I was able to get the doors high enough so there wasn't a step off at the top. When I started I got the door to this height:

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People on the forum encouraged me to work on getting the door positioned better. It was time well spent. I ended up with the doors at this height.

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From what I can see in your picture it looks pretty close.

I also had to build up the outer edge of the gap exactly like you mentioned. Here is a close up of my repair. Sadly I don't have a picture of the gap completely sanded so it is still a little uneven in the pictures. This gives you an idea of how much I had to build up the body side of the gap on both doors.

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[Jeff Kleiner]

Are the rockers secured to the chassis? That will change lower door gap.

Jeff

[Jim S]

Thanks for the replies gents.

hineas... From your pictures it looks like you have used about the same amount of filler as I will need to add to close the door edge gap. Thanks for sharing those.

Jeff... The driver's side rocker is secured to the square tube. I was hoping doing that would fix the problem but it did not. I still need to do the passenger side and I think it will help close the gap there.

With the questions / suggestions on body position, I am going to check again.

Assuming the body is positioned where it should be, am I on the right track.... HSRF to fill the door gap and fiberglass mat / resin to fill in the roll bar crescent?

[Jeff Kleiner]

With the questions / suggestions on body position, I am going to check again.

Here's your body position reference:

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=186851&d=1688567352

Rather than me repeating myself regarding fitting and filling for the doors review my comments in hineas bodywork thread.
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?44680-Carl-s-and-Phil-s-Mk4-Body-Work-and-Paint

Jeff

[Jim S]

Jeff... From your picture it looks like you are measuring at the hole in the striker. Is that right? Since the body and the 3/4" tube slope at different angles in this area, where the measurement is taken makes a big difference. The picture below shows what I have measured at the striker plate hole. It is a heavy 1/8".

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I appreciate all of your comments and have followed the hineas post closely. In fact, I printed the whole thing and have it out in the shop for reference. :)

After your previous comment on the rockers, I went out and checked the passenger's side. While it wasn't secured, there wasn't any more "up" when I did fasten it. The door gap is a 1/4", I don't think it looks bad. (See the pictures below.) The gap still needs evened out. (The door is at shipped by FFR. No trimming done.) By the time I have finished the body work with Slick Sand, Sealer, etc, the gap will have closed some.

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For the driver's door, I am thinking I will approach the door gap by sneaking up on it. I will purposely hang the door a little low so the horizontal surface is about a 1/16 below the body and fill the door to match. (I will need to check the corner of the door in the "triangle" area to make sure I don't need a lot of filler there.) I will let the gap around the door be a 1/4" to match the passenger side. That leaves about 3/16" of filler in the worst area. I'll use some 80 grit on the gel coat to give the HSRF something to byte into. Reasonable?

[hineas]

I'm glad my thread is helpful!

[GoDadGo]

Jim,

Here are my bodywork progress videos that may help you or may not.
Everything we did was based on Jeff Kleiner's recommendations except my driver's door solution.

Parting Line Seam Sanding:
https://youtu.be/_3sLamdkIFg

Smoothing & Sanding Prepwork:
https://youtu.be/meBYeI96_A8

Filling & Sanding Step #1:
https://youtu.be/6QXWP5H8mT0

Bodywork & Go-Dad's Driver's Door Solution:
https://youtu.be/6UK6K2jcwTU

The Bodywork Is Done:
https://youtu.be/po1Bb2_XDDk

Backside Body Coating With Raptor Bedliner:
https://youtu.be/FVMCA4_UZHU

The Re-Assembly Begins:
https://youtu.be/ELFJDOVKb4g

Re-Assembly Continues:
https://youtu.be/A0Jb1tjjtPU

All Done Except For The Wipers:
https://youtu.be/9WEe6-wdNtA

Good Luck & Don't Throw Tools!

[Jim S]

I certainly appreciate all of the replies. They caused me to check my work.

I think we have lost track of my original questions though. Here they are in short form:

1) The roll bar diagonal tube hole was cut too far rearward. My question: If I just patch the crescent where the hole is too long, will that be strong enough (patch from the underside with glass mat and resin) or do I need to fill the entire hole and re-cut it? (Other ideas also welcomed.)

2) How thick can you apply HSRF before it is too much? I need about 3/16" worst case to fill gaps around the doors.

hineas had a reply to these questions. I was wondering if anyone else had anything to offer?

[GoDadGo]

Jim,

> You can sand both side to rough things up and glass from both sides.
> An easy trick is to use painters tape to keep the mat from sagging.
> Below is a helpful glass repair technique video that will help:

https://youtu.be/4XoeGV2KhGc

NOTE:.. Your body was layed up with Vinylester resin, but you can use Polyester resin if you can't get Vinylester... Epoxy will work too; however, never attempt to use Polyester with Epoxy resins because they don't play well together.

Good Luck & Happy Glassing!

Steve

[Jim S]

This is perfect Steve. Just what I needed!!! Thank you.

[Jeff Kleiner]

If you need to close up the "crescent" mat and resin (vinylester) will do. No need to fill in the entire hole. Remove gel coat and take it down to raw 'glass anywhere resin will go. Not that it can't happen but I've never seen a rear leg hole cut too far rearward which makes me question whether your body is far enough forward.

If you're just closing in the door jambs it can be done with Rage Gold rather than HSRF. Save this work until after all of the other shaping and positioning of the door has been completed.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=186892&d=1605481180

Whether HSRF or filler the gelcoat needs to be sanded with 80 prior to application.

Jeff

[Jim S]

Thanks for the reply Jeff. It is very helpful. I really like the picture. It tells an informative story.

I understand and respect your view on the body position. I have done a lot of checking based on your input. Where I am at on the body forward / back position depends a lot on where the measurement is taken at the striker. At the bottom of the striker, the body is a 1/2" ahead of the striker. At the top of the striker, the body is just slightly ahead. At the striker hole, the body is a heavy 1/8" ahead of the striker. Here is a picture measured at the striker hole. What's your view? Is the body far enough forward?

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Given the number of cars you have worked on, it does seem unlikely that mine is the only one with the rear tube hole cut wrong. Some things I am considering in all of this:
1) The driver’s side roll bar hole was fine and both sides measure the same in relation to the striker.
2) If I were to move the body forward any more, the inner rear quick jack sleeves would need to be shortened. Maybe that is what needs to be done?
3) As shipped, FFR used some self-tapping sheet metal screws to secure the rockers to the 2” square tube. As positioned now, the body lines up with those holes forward and back (but not in and out). While I know FFR doesn’t particularly care about body position, it does provide one more point of reference.

In the end, I will need to fill one end of the roll bar hole or the other. I have opened up the hole to get the role bar installed. I do want it to be right so if you tell me the body needs to go further forward, I will do that.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Thanks for the reply Jeff. It is very helpful. I really like the picture. It tells an informative story.

I understand and respect your view on the body position. I have done a lot of checking based on your input. Where I am at on the body forward / back position depends a lot on where the measurement is taken at the striker. At the bottom of the striker, the body is a 1/2" ahead of the striker. At the top of the striker, the body is just slightly ahead. At the striker hole, the body is a heavy 1/8" ahead of the striker. Here is a picture measured at the striker hole. What's your view? Is the body far enough forward?

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Given the number of cars you have worked on, it does seem unlikely that mine is the only one with the rear tube hole cut wrong. Some things I am considering in all of this:
1) The driver’s side roll bar hole was fine and both sides measure the same in relation to the striker.
2) If I were to move the body forward any more, the inner rear quick jack sleeves would need to be shortened. Maybe that is what needs to be done?
3) As shipped, FFR used some self-tapping sheet metal screws to secure the rockers to the 2” square tube. As positioned now, the body lines up with those holes forward and back (but not in and out). While I know FFR doesn’t particularly care about body position, it does provide one more point of reference.

In the end, I will need to fill one end of the roll bar hole or the other. I have opened up the hole to get the role bar installed. I do want it to be right so if you tell me the body needs to go further forward, I will do that.

I reference pretty much at the hole. Looks like you're seeing about 1/8" Not bad but a little farther forward wouldn't hurt if you can get it. It all cascades based on body position---too far rearward and you can run out of adjustment range for the hood as well as the doors and cause things to get wonky when installing the windshield. How are the holes for the 2 vertical legs? The screw holes that FFR used for shipping mean nothing...they drop the body on and fasten it down wherever it happens to land. I do not use the inner spacer tubes because you (maybe should say "I" ;)) want to be able to flex the rear valance in or out to meet the bottom edge of the trunk lid. You've probably seen references here to the modification that I do to allow this.

Jeff

[Jim S]

I'll work on getting it a little further forward. I'll remove the inner spacers and see what that gets me. I may need to see "what's next" as far as keeping the body from going forward.

The holes for the windshield don't appear to be too bad but I haven't spent much time with them. They do seem to be placed a bit too far towards the outside of the car. They are preventing the windshield legs from making contact with the frame on both sides. I only did one quick test fit though and then took it off. I need to do it again for real and see what I have. I'll get the body forward first.

Thanks for your help and patience. Communicating like this can be challenging.

[Jim S]

I spent time today to see if I could get the body to move forward. I removed the roll bars, all quick jack bolts, doors, etc. The rear quick jack inner sleeves were keeping the body from moving forward. I ended up with both the driver's side and the passenger's side being 3/8" ahead of the door striker when measured at the striker hole. (See the following pictures.) That's about a 1/4" more than I had before. Thanks for the motivation Jeff!!

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I took advantage of having the body loose and got behind the dash to see why my headlights weren't getting 12V. What I found would be good for everyone to pay attention to.

I found the blue 12V headlight feed wire from the headlight switch to have 12V at the headlight switch. The blue 12V headlight feed wire terminal on the Hi / Low Beam switch did not have 12V though. While probing to make sure I was making contact for the voltmeter, I saw a spark through the red (low beam) spade connector translucent insulation. I could make the spark repeat by wiggling the wire. The same thing happened with the blue 12V feed wire connector. I cut both connectors off and replaced them with new spade connectors. Everything now works fine.

The bad connectors were crimped too tightly making the connector brittle at the crimp. (I am using the Ron Francis wiring harness.) While checking the headlight switch and probing the Hi / Low beam switch I evidently flexed the wires enough to cause the connectors to break. This is a 20A circuit. Not something you want to have making sparks or being intermittent on something as important as headlights. If you have a circuit that isn't working, check to make sure any crimp on connectors aren't broken at the crimp.

[GoDadGo]

Jim,

Jeff told me often to pay attention to the little details because they add up quickly.
If you keep this in mine you'll be victorious in the end.
The ability to create a show stopper is at hand.

Steve

[hineas]

I'm glad you got the body forward! I bet that will help with the roll bar holes.

Did you do the Kleiner Modification with the rear quick jack bolts? That will allow you to move the rear end forward and backward to accommodate proper body placement and help with trunk alignment.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?14243-Rear-quick-jack-mounting&p=151165#post151165

[Jim S]

Did you do the Kleiner Modification with the rear quick jack bolts? That will allow you to move the rear end forward and backward to accommodate proper body placement and help with trunk alignment.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?14243-Rear-quick-jack-mounting&p=151165#post151165

Thanks for the link to the rear quick jack bolt modification. I have been looking for it.

Besides the door striker reference point, are there any other places to measure to make sure the body is far enough forward? I'm thinking about the front of the body specifically. (I know the left to right measurement for centering the nose.)

Thanks again to all for the help!!

[Jeff Kleiner]

Glad that you stuck with it and got the body moved forward Jim! Trust me, it was time well spent :) If you hadn't you would have been chasing problems all the way to the end; as I said in the earlier reply "things cascade". This also explains alot about the question you posted a few months ago about your front wheel being too far forward in the opening. Measurement wise with your positioning relative to the door latch plate and the shimming to raise the nose (as per your June 26th post) you should be good to move forward.

Something that Jeff Miller, Ken Pike and I have said in our private conversations is "Even though they're all different every one is alike" which translated means that if a builder is encountering something that doesn't quite mesh with the norm, such as wheel position or cutouts, etc. you should really back up a few steps and check your work rather than assuming that something was manufactured/welded/cut incorrectly by FFR. Not to say that they are infallible...stuff happens...but overall the kits are pretty uniform and repeatable. Generally the things that are "wrong" (such as the skewed hood or radiator crossbar) are wrong on every one and the things that are right such as the points we use for reference are right on all.

Good luck going forward!

Jeff