Planning stages - guidance needed

[Mbufford]

So, first off, an introduction is in order. I’m a middle-aged white dude, disabled war vet, former firefighter, turned attorney, who travels all over for work and I love what I do. Oh, and I love dark beer and rye whiskey.

TLDR: just read it. Not like you have anything better to do.

I’ve been lurking on these threads for years, and recently created an account after (very convincingly) got my wife’s permission to commence the build of my dream car.

I intend to order my complete kit with IRS, and all the other goodies, this December after my annual bonus rolls in. I plan to do a Coyote build, which will likely be a gen4 by time I’m ready for a motor from Forte—I don’t anticipate needing my motor for at least a year after starting the build. According to the lead times I’m seeing posted in the last couple years, should mean my kit will arrive around this time next year. So, that should work out timing-wise.

I’m in the planning stage currently and have a draft build sheet with part sources, etc. I have a good amount of mechanical knowledge and experience, and have spent a good deal of time doing body work in the past. I don’t have the room in the garage in my suburban-hell-McMansion-garage to set up a paint booth, or I’d paint myself. Everything else, including cerakoting all normally chrome things, will be done in-house.

The first, of what will likely be many questions by the end, are with respect to the order of operations.

1: With the fact that I don’t have room for a painting booth also comes the fact that I don’t have room in my garage to store the body, even above because there’s a stupid beam in my 2.5 car garage that restricts height availability (and my wife insists on parking her ridiculous suv in the garage). I do, however have some property in west Texas, where I have a shipping container that can hold the body. Are there any dangers inherent in storing the fiberglass shell in a shipping container for 1-2 years in temps that reach 110+ before painting?

2: Considering the fact that body work is my least favorite part of automotive work, I’d like to do that first. In FFR’s body work video, they encourage the prep to be done before removing the body from the chassis. Though, in my hours/days/weeks/months/years perusing the threads on here (and the other site) I’ve seen this issue tends to be quite contentious, at least with the pre mkIV bodies. I did see a thread at one point that suggested installing certain aluminum panels before doing body work. I’ve seen some people say you need the build complete before you do the body. I’ve seen some say you can do it all on the chassis as soon as it’s delivered. So, my question is: what is the general consensus (assuming such a thing exists on this topic) as to what extent to body work can be done before doing the rest of the build? Can I do all the leveling, building, grinding, gapping, etc., before I do the rest of the build? If not, what is the extent of the body work on the MKIV body that can be done prior to finishing the aluminum panels?

*Edited to fix egregious typos induced by my current overindulgence of rye whiskey secondary to one of my clients complete crapping the bed in a deposition this afternoon.

[edwardb]

1. The storage you describe shouldn't be a problem.

2. There are a few basic things you can do prior to the fitted body, like cleaning up edges, etc. But I'd highly recommend waiting until you have a finished chassis and can mount the body exactly how it's going to go before doing any major grinding, gapping, etc. Yes, you could probably install enough parts on the chassis to get the position close. But at that point, seems counterproductive to me. Why not spend the time on the chassis getting it complete first.

Good luck with your build and welcome to the madness.

[CaptB]

Thank you for your service. I have 3 combat deployments and 9 total in 25 years service. PTSD sucks but hey at least we get to build these cars.

Capt. B

[gbranham]

As far as lead time, I can share with you my experience. I ordered my MkIV complete kit on 4/18/23, and Factory Five tells me it should be ready by 7/1/23. I was shocked...

Thanks for your service!

Greg

[Jeff Kleiner]

You can't properly fit, shape and gap the body or properly trim and shape the cutouts for windshield, roll bars and sidepipes unless it is on the chassis with key panels and bulb seal installed. You can do initial trimming and parting line prep off of the chassis, and in fact that's how I do them.

You mention not doing the paint in your McMansion garage but if you're considering doing the body prep there do you have any idea how much dust is involved? I do! That's why my wife calls me Pig Pen 185469

Cheers and good luck with your project!

Jeff

[Mbufford]

Wow, I guess they’ve gotten caught up finally! That’s great to hear.

[Mbufford]

Oh yes, I’m acutely aware of the dust—I’ve done extensive fiberglass work in the past. A big powerful fan blowing it towards the neighbor’s house is my typical solution. Then compressed air and a leaf blower usually gets the garage back to a functional state.

So between the guidance from you and Edward, I’m understanding the best approach to be:
1. Do initial trimming, edge rolling, and mold seams, then put the body in storage.
2. Build out the chassis to the point it’s ready for the power train.
3. Put the body back on and finish body work.
4. Send body off for paint while I finish the build and get it running.
5. Install body and all exterior fixtures.

Sounds workable with my setup. Only question, and one of the reasons I was wanting to complete the body work first, is how do you keep the dust from invading every part and crevice when doing the body work? Just plastic and tape?

Thanks for the guidance!

[AA-ron]

So this might be the first time I actually fell qualified to chime in on a question. I just finished my build a few weeks ago and I ended up doing the body work and paint myself-- both of which were the very last part of my build. I would echo what most have said above, and suggest doing the bulk of the trimming, fitting, with the body on the frame. The only thing I did post bodywork/ paint was to install the interior. I left anything carpet/vinyl related to after the paint was nice and cured. I sealed off as much as I could with plastic for the "red dust from hell" portion of the body work. Prior to painting, I found it surprisingly easy to clean and remove all the dust. It was actually somewhat fun doing the final cleaning as I got to spend some time pouring over all my hard work with a dust rag and windex in hand. And I second the use of exhaust fans and leaf blowers-- both were instrumental in keeping my shop clean and my sanity intact.
Enjoy the ride! I had an amazing experience with Factory Five, from the order all the way to the support I received during my build. And nice choice going with Mike Forte. That man knows his stuff and seemed to enjoy helping me out of binds.
This past year has been an absolute blast!
Enjoy!!!!!

[JohnK]

I'd just put the body in storage initially, and then do all the trimming, edge rolling, mold seams when you are ready to do body work. That way you only have to clean the garage once. There's no benefit to doing that stuff before putting the body in storage.

[Jeff Kleiner]

...Only question, and one of the reasons I was wanting to complete the body work first, is how do you keep the dust from invading every part and crevice when doing the body work? Just plastic and tape?

Thanks for the guidance!

Before I drop the body back on after doing the initial parting line work (they aren't seams) I cover the engine bay. passenger compartment and trunk area with plastic. Then they get raised up and have the wheels removed.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=185476&d=1686162961

When the body comes back off for paint most of the dust hasn't reached the chassis...what remains is pretty easily blown, vacuumed and wiped off.

Jeff

185476

[edwardb]

One added comment after your plan list. Without the engine installed, you won't be able to align headers and side pipes which affect the pipe cutout in the body. The body comes with a minimal cutout that you fit to your build. Guys have adjusted the cutouts on a painted body. But not for the faint of heart. Something to think about.

[nashuanuke]

As far as lead time, I can share with you my experience. I ordered my MkIV complete kit on 4/18/23, and Factory Five tells me it should be ready by 7/1/23. I was shocked...

Thanks for your service!

Greg

Oh wow, I knew it was a while, but I figured it'd be less than a year. I guess not.

[Mbufford]

Yeah, that makes sense. Why pull out that set of tools, spend the time doing a fraction of the work just to clean up, store those tools, just to pull it all out again later.

My biggest concern with storing the body in the hot shipping container was that the wax blobs in the gel coat could melt and migrate into the glass. I could be way off on that, but from all the talk I’ve seen about making sure the wax doesn’t get imbedded in any parts, that has me nervous.

[Mbufford]

Excellent. The visual representation helps tremendously! Thanks again!

[Mbufford]

Hadn’t considered that! I guess I could do the engine first—but that’s an expense, along with painting that I’ll have to save up for after I drop the cash for the kit. With my limited availability due to work, the chassis built itself will likely take me over a year. With my anal retentive nature, the body work will have to be perfect, and will take a significant amount of time as well.

For now, I say I’m not in a rush and want this to be a long-term hobby/project. But… knowing myself, once the is ready for an engine, I’ll start skipping work to get it on the road as quick as possible ��

[Mbufford]

Oh wow, I knew it was a while, but I figured it'd be less than a year. I guess not.

But that was only 3 months. From everything I’ve read, that’s lightning fast.

[Mbufford]

So this might be the first time I actually fell qualified to chime in on a question. I just finished my build a few weeks ago and I ended up doing the body work and paint myself-- both of which were the very last part of my build. I would echo what most have said above, and suggest doing the bulk of the trimming, fitting, with the body on the frame. The only thing I did post bodywork/ paint was to install the interior. I left anything carpet/vinyl related to after the paint was nice and cured. I sealed off as much as I could with plastic for the "red dust from hell" portion of the body work. Prior to painting, I found it surprisingly easy to clean and remove all the dust. It was actually somewhat fun doing the final cleaning as I got to spend some time pouring over all my hard work with a dust rag and windex in hand. And I second the use of exhaust fans and leaf blowers-- both were instrumental in keeping my shop clean and my sanity intact.
Enjoy the ride! I had an amazing experience with Factory Five, from the order all the way to the support I received during my build. And nice choice going with Mike Forte. That man knows his stuff and seemed to enjoy helping me out of binds.
This past year has been an absolute blast!
Enjoy!!!!!

So, question about your engine choice. Has the 302 left you wanting more? I love the idea of having the juice from the Coyote, but it is a bit costly overall.

[edwardb]

My biggest concern with storing the body in the hot shipping container was that the wax blobs in the gel coat could melt and migrate into the glass. I could be way off on that, but from all the talk I’ve seen about making sure the wax doesn’t get imbedded in any parts, that has me nervous.

I'd relax about this. Yes, wax in the parting lines does occasionally appear and it should be removed. I wouldn't call them blobs though. Typically small and honestly not a big deal. The risk for whatever might be in your body migrating beyond where you might find some is minimal. Yes, it's talked about on the forum. Like many things though, can be blown out of proportion until you see and act in person.

[Mbufford]

I'd relax about this. Yes, wax in the parting lines does occasionally appear and it should be removed. I wouldn't call them blobs though. Typically small and honestly not a big deal. The risk for whatever might be in your body migrating beyond where you might find some is minimal. Yes, it's talked about on the forum. Like many things though, can be blown out of proportion until you see and act in person.

Good to know, thank you!

[Jeff Kleiner]

My biggest concern with storing the body in the hot shipping container was that the wax blobs in the gel coat could melt and migrate into the glass. I could be way off on that, but from all the talk I’ve seen about making sure the wax doesn’t get imbedded in any parts, that has me nervous.

So if you're concerned (you needn't be) just clean it before you store it away. That has to be done sooner or later anyway.

Jeff

[KippRacing]

I'd just make sure the body is supported well so that it doesn't warp or sag sitting that long in the heat.

[AA-ron]

So, question about your engine choice. Has the 302 left you wanting more? I love the idea of having the juice from the Coyote, but it is a bit costly overall.

Unfortunately, I'm still stuck waiting on my VIN assignment from the state. I've been done now for over a month and no word from the state... frustrating. I'll tell you that the 302 goes like hell backing in and out of my garage :)
My choice on the Ford Racing 302 from Forte was based on a few things. First, I had the chance to ride in a Coyote gen2 roadster a few years back. When I felt the rear end break loose in second gear when it hit mid range in the RPMs I just felt that it was more than I'll ever need/want. I know from what I've read on the forum, that 0-60 times are all about the same from 300HP and up (please someone with more experience chime in if I'm wrong); which again pushed me towards the more "mild" 350HP 302. Lastly, because I built my exhaust system and muffler into the nose piece, I needed all the room I could get to work in the routing of the pipes.
I had a long talk with Mike Forte and he said that this 302 is a wonderful engine in this car-- plenty of power, reliable, and easy to work on... all that sold me.
Sooooooo..... with all that said, there are many on this forum that have lots more experience than I do, and many have had both engines, so I would put more weight behind their "actual" experiences.

If you'd like to see a bit more on my build you can tap on the link to my Youtube channel in my signature. There's a lot there, so just scroll through the titles until something catches your eye.

[Mbufford]

I'd just make sure the body is supported well so that it doesn't warp or sag sitting that long in the heat.

I was planning on doing the standard body buck for storage—is that sufficient, or do I need to do something better!

[JohnK]

You should be fine. I needed to transport mine to an offsite storage unit and didn't want it bouncing around on the flatbed tow truck so I supported the dash cowl with a piece of foam roller. If you wanted the peace of mind you could do something similar, but honestly it's pretty sturdy as it is.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=102294&d=1550458378

[Mbufford]

Unfortunately, I'm still stuck waiting on my VIN assignment from the state. I've been done now for over a month and no word from the state... frustrating. I'll tell you that the 302 goes like hell backing in and out of my garage :)
My choice on the Ford Racing 302 from Forte was based on a few things. First, I had the chance to ride in a Coyote gen2 roadster a few years back. When I felt the rear end break loose in second gear when it hit mid range in the RPMs I just felt that it was more than I'll ever need/want. I know from what I've read on the forum, that 0-60 times are all about the same from 300HP and up (please someone with more experience chime in if I'm wrong); which again pushed me towards the more "mild" 350HP 302. Lastly, because I built my exhaust system and muffler into the nose piece, I needed all the room I could get to work in the routing of the pipes.
I had a long talk with Mike Forte and he said that this 302 is a wonderful engine in this car-- plenty of power, reliable, and easy to work on... all that sold me.
Sooooooo..... with all that said, there are many on this forum that have lots more experience than I do, and many have had both engines, so I would put more weight behind their "actual" experiences.

If you'd like to see a bit more on my build you can tap on the link to my Youtube channel in my signature. There's a lot there, so just scroll through the titles until something catches your eye.

That certainly give me more to consider. I love the idea of having the powerhouse Coyote in it—but in reality, I’d never use it to capacity on the streets and I’ve only ever done a couple track days in my previous speed demon (‘67 Firebird 400). Maybe I’ll give a forte a call be fore I finalize my order and let him talk me into the best engine for me.

[Mbufford]

You should be fine. I needed to transport mine to an offsite storage unit and didn't want it bouncing around on the flatbed tow truck so I supported the dash cowl with a piece of foam roller. If you wanted the peace of mind you could do something similar, but honestly it's pretty sturdy as it is.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=102294&d=1550458378

That’s a good idea! I’m sure I could pick up various sized foam pieces from Hobby Lobby or elsewhere to set up as extra support. I anticipate the body being in storage for up to two years, so I’d rather not take any risk of it deforming.

[Mbufford]

If you'd like to see a bit more on my build you can tap on the link to my Youtube channel in my signature. There's a lot there, so just scroll through the titles until something catches your eye.

Funny enough, I’ve already watched all your videos, even commented on one last week. I love your creativity in your build. Im pretty good with metal fab, though my TIG skills are somewhat lacking. You’re next level though! You did a fantastic job.

[edwardb]

After doing several small block builds, have done two Coyote builds. Now I'm a huge Coyote fan, so take this with the necessary grain of salt. It's not just about horsepower. Yes, the Gen 3 Coyote, with a different intake, long tube headers, and the requisite custom tune, is approaching 500 HP and loves to rev. Mine will jump to over 7.5K with little hesitation. But I'm an almost 100% street driver and conservative. I rarely push mine hard, respecting the car and my own driving ability. What I've come to really appreciate about the Coyote is how drivable it is. Always starts immediately, will drive away without hesitation (like any modern car), launches easily, and is happy to be driven easy or hard. If you want to short shift at 2,000 RPM, it doesn't care. Then again, if you get on it, hang on. It goes illegal in all 50 states in second quite easily. Add to that long term durability and low maintenance. Only needs oil changes for the first 100K miles. But bottom line I just find it more fun to drive because it's so forgiving and easy to live with. Mild or wild. You don't have to drive it hard to appreciate that. By all means, get all the opinions you want. Including from Mike Forte. But having had both, I know what I'd use for any future builds. P.S. I know guys object to the "look" of the Coyote and it not being old school, etc. I get it and if that's a concern by all means go old school. But it can be made to look mostly decent. Check my build thread and/or video linked below. It's been shown extensively and gets nearly unanimous praise for a modern engine in an old school design car. Best of both worlds. Good luck whatever you decide.

[DanQ]

I have the full fenders and running boards for my 33 Hot Rod in my garage that always seem to be in the way during the mechanical assembly. I contacted F5 Tech Support asking if I could store them in the attic of my garage until I am ready for body work (likely this winter). In Minnesota, summer temps are in the 90's and it likely gets up to 125+ degrees in an attic. They did not recommended this because those panels may warp if stored in the high heat. Granted, the body is much thicker than the fenders, plus fenders and running boards would be much more supported if they were bolted to the body, so I decided to trip over them instead of taking a chance of any warpage. I felt comfortable storing the boxes that had only metal in them (door hinges, steering column, windshield, gas tank, brake lines, etc.) Now I have to figure out how to sneak the boxes of seats, carpet, and interior into the house.

185529

[Mbufford]

After doing several small block builds, have done two Coyote builds. Now I'm a huge Coyote fan, so take this with the necessary grain of salt. It's not just about horsepower. Yes, the Gen 3 Coyote, with a different intake, long tube headers, and the requisite custom tune, is approaching 500 HP and loves to rev. Mine will jump to over 7.5K with little hesitation. But I'm an almost 100% street driver and conservative. I rarely push mine hard, respecting the car and my own driving ability. What I've come to really appreciate about the Coyote is how drivable it is. Always starts immediately, will drive away without hesitation (like any modern car), launches easily, and is happy to be driven easy or hard. If you want to short shift at 2,000 RPM, it doesn't care. Then again, if you get on it, hang on. It goes illegal in all 50 states in second quite easily. Add to that long term durability and low maintenance. Only needs oil changes for the first 100K miles. But bottom line I just find it more fun to drive because it's so forgiving and easy to live with. Mild or wild. You don't have to drive it hard to appreciate that. By all means, get all the opinions you want. Including from Mike Forte. But having had both, I know what I'd use for any future builds. P.S. I know guys object to the "look" of the Coyote and it not being old school, etc. I get it and if that's a concern by all means go old school. But it can be made to look mostly decent. Check my build thread and/or video linked below. It's been shown extensively and gets nearly unanimous praise for a modern engine in an old school design car. Best of both worlds. Good luck whatever you decide.

You guys aren’t making that choice easy! I’m not remotely concerned about being period correct, and the modern reliability is a large reason I want the coyote, especially since we will be on the 4th gen by time I buy.

[Mbufford]

I have the full fenders and running boards for my 33 Hot Rod in my garage that always seem to be in the way during the mechanical assembly. I contacted F5 Tech Support asking if I could store them in the attic of my garage until I am ready for body work (likely this winter). In Minnesota, summer temps are in the 90's and it likely gets up to 125+ degrees in an attic. They did not recommended this because those panels may warp if stored in the high heat. Granted, the body is much thicker than the fenders, plus fenders and running boards would be much more supported if they were bolted to the body, so I decided to trip over them instead of taking a chance of any warpage. I felt comfortable storing the boxes that had only metal in them (door hinges, steering column, windshield, gas tank, brake lines, etc.) Now I have to figure out how to sneak the boxes of seats, carpet, and interior into the house.

185529

Well, I guess this begs the question: would I be better off just storing it outside with a tarp over it? I mean, if the thing is going to live in Texas, it has to be able to handle the heat. But, it can get very hot in those shipping containers.

[KippRacing]

Is there any way you could build a rack and store it on its side in the garage? Just throwing ideas out.

[edwardb]

...the modern reliability is a large reason I want the coyote, especially since we will be on the 4th gen by time I buy.

Just a hint about that. When I ordered my Gen 3 Coupe kit in Sept 2017 for delivery Nov 2017 (hard to believe it's been that long already) the Gen 3 Coyote had been announced for the 2018 Mustang. Having already installed a Gen 2 in a Roadster, I was interested in using the latest Gen 3 version in my new Coupe build. Ford Performance released the crate motor version of the Gen 3, along with the necessary electronics control pack, in August 2018. I was in contact with some employees at Ford Performance (sometimes pays to live in the SE Michigan area and "know people") so was able to get one right after they were released to dealers. What they told me at the time was it takes about one year of R&D for Ford Performance to develop the harness and mainly the revised calibration in the PCM for the crate version of the engine after it's in regular production. Ford Performance has gone through changes since then, including reduction of workforce, so I would expect the Gen 4 crate motor version to take at least that long. Assuming they decide to make it available.

What can we assume so far? The 2024 Mustang, which has the Gen 4 Coyote, is supposed to be released "summer 2023" per Ford press releases. In order to meet that schedule the Essex engine factory in Windsor, Canada (where all Coyote's have historically been built) has to have already been switched over and Gen 4 engines delivered to the Mustang plant in Flat Rock, Michigan. That would roughly align with the schedule the Gen 3 followed. Meaning maybe the Gen 4 crate would be available summer 2024. That would be an optimistic schedule in my opinion. Also, fair warning, the Factory Five instructions instructions have typically not kept up with the release schedule. I had my Gen 3 Coyote completely installed and running in my Coupe build before Factory Five had Gen 3 installation instructions available. Not a huge deal since I had installed the Gen 2 previously plus Ford Performance does include what I consider the most important instructions anyway. But something to consider. Also one of the "features" of the Gen 4 Coyote is dual throttle bodies. Interesting but could be a challenging installation in our builds.

Lots to consider but nothing you have to decide about right now. The Gen 3 is proven and its installation sorted out. I wouldn't consider that a compromise at all. But I understand wanting to have the latest and greatest. Been there done that.

This thread from a few months ago repeats some of this plus has some links with more information. https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?44009-2024-Mustang-Gen-4-Coyote

[Mbufford]

Is there any way you could build a rack and store it on its side in the garage? Just throwing ideas out.

Unfortunately, there’s just not enough room. I tried coming up with some way to keep it in there, but unless the wife would let me have the whole garage, it’s not going to fit—and that’s not going to happen!

[Mbufford]

Lots to consider but nothing you have to decide about right now. The Gen 3 is proven and its installation sorted out. I wouldn't consider that a compromise at all. But I understand wanting to have the latest and greatest. Been there done that.

This thread from a few months ago repeats some of this plus has some links with more information. https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?44009-2024-Mustang-Gen-4-Coyote

I don’t anticipate getting my kit until sometime 2024. I plan to order in December, and from an earlier comment on earlier lead times, I’ll probably be starting the project in the spring.

With my schedule, I don’t have much time to do hobby work. Under my new build plan, I expect the chassis work to take me at least a year. Then I’ll get the body back on and do all of the body work, which is likely to take me another 6 months before I’m ready to order the power train—I’ll have to save up for that one too.

So, I’m thinking I’m at least 2 years out from buying a motor. If the stars line up for the gen 4, great. If not, and if gen 3 packages are still available, I’ll just go that route. The few extra HP aren’t really important to me—I just want reliability.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Don’t overthink this body storage thing. I’ve done full builds including paint on two 12-15 year old “barn find” roadsters which had the bodies just sitting on the ground plus paint on another that had been hanging in barn rafters for over a decade. Absolutely no problems with any of them changing shape or experiencing “warpage”. Biggest issue was the giant hornet’s nests built under one of them! Do you know how Factory Five stores them? Sitting on the ground, in the weeds on the back lot ;)

Jeff

[Mbufford]

Don’t overthink this body storage thing. I’ve done full builds including paint on two 12-15 year old “barn find” roadsters which had the bodies just sitting on the ground plus paint on another that had been hanging in barn rafters for over a decade. Absolutely no problems with any of them changing shape or experiencing “warpage”. Biggest issue was the giant hornet’s nests built under one of them! Do you know how Factory Five stores them? Sitting on the ground, in the weeds on the back lot ;)

Jeff

Good to know, thank you!

[AC Bill]

So, question about your engine choice. Has the 302 left you wanting more? I love the idea of having the juice from the Coyote, but it is a bit costly overall.

Limited to the streets, I haven't yet been able to run my 302 at it's maximum output. I also don't redline it going through the gears, but with the 3.55 rear end ratio, it still goes like a scalded cat. Unless your on a track, I don't know how any responsible driver could possibly use all the horsepower a Coyote can produce.