Pre-sales coupe questions...

[Corsair66]

Hi,

I’ve been itching for another project and am considering undertaking a Type 65 Coupe (to duplicate, as closely as practicable, CSX2299) and, naturally, have a number of questions. In no particular order:

- I want to run the original-style 15” FIA pin drive wheels. What brake size limitations will I have and what tires will look right (proportional) in the upsized wheel wells?
- Vis-a-vis the 15” wheels, Vintage Wheels has versions for the Coupe referencing both 54.25” and 59.25” rear ends. Is that a distinction that I’ll need to make when ordering the car? Will doing so preclude me from running the IRS?
- Is it possible to obtain proper pin drive wheel knuckles which won’t require adaptors to run the original-style FIA wheels?
- Short of running non-DOT, bias-ply tires (lots of disadvantages there, of course), are the Avon tires the best bet for the street, all things considered (including my 15” rims)?
- Does the car need power steering or is the manual rack adequate? I used a manual rack in my Ultima GTR and it was fine.
- Is there any way to mount the emergency brake lever on the right side of the tunnel as with the original cars?
- Is the TKX a good choice vs. a toploader? If so, which of the available gear sets would best duplicate the original cars’ performance envelope?
- Which differential would best combine with the TKX to duplicate the original cars’ performance envelope?
- I’m interested in using either a 351W or a 427, carbureted in either case. Would a set of Webers fit under the Type 65’s hood, perhaps with short stacks?

It looks as though new orders are currently targeting an October delivery, so there's plenty of time to mull the many possibilities. Anyway, that’s it for now, though more will likely follow! :-)

Best,
Ken

[drewr]

I'm following a similar plan. I've settled for "vintage-ish" for a number of reasons.
-I'm using the Factory Five 15" wheels with the 5 lugs. I think they have pin drive available in that size as well. Some runs Avons. My understanding is that they are super sticky and wear quickly. Oh, and very expensive! I'm using Mickey Thompson Sportsman S/T. Only have minimal mileage, but happy so far.
-I have power steering. Most would recommend this. Manual is doable, but will be a bear in a parking lot. Some say it tracks better at speed with power steering, but I cannot confirm.
-You can mount the emergency brake anywhere you want if you can weld. The brackets are set up for the tunnel mount.
-You're going to need a TKX or similar if your going to run that kind of horsepower. A toploader is a 4 speed, correct? You'll miss having an overdrive if you plan to drive on a freeway at all.
-Most run 3.55 rear ends. You'll see anywhere from 3.27-4.11. TKX makes both long and short gearing combos. There are plenty of online calculators to estimate RPM and speed in different gears with different rear ends, gearboxes and tire sizes.
-The CSX2299 had a suped-up 289. I'm running a 302 bored and stroked to 347. Webbers will fit with mine. I'm running a Holley carb till I get it titled. A 351 has a taller deck, so don't know if Webbers will fit.
-The CSX2299 was a race car with minimal street manners and likely not easy to drive around town. You'll have to decide what you want your experience to be. If you're building a track car, you can stick to the original formula. If you want to cruise around town with the wife, you may not be happy without making some concessions to modernity.

Of course, my 2 cents.
Drew

[JohnK]

What's your goal in building this car? Will it be a street car or track car? Is this an exercise in building as faithful a reproduction as possible? You mention duplicating the original car's performance envelope a few times. Is this really what you want? The car was incredible for its time, but modern technology (overdrive trans, fuel injection, IRS, coil overs, etc.) means that most coupes built today far exceed the original car's performance, comfort, handling, safety. Do you really want the original car's performance, and nothing more and nothing less, or do you want the best that modern tech offers? No right or wrong answers, just trying to gauge what you're truly after so folks can give more informed decisions. The toploader, for example, is not a trans you'd typically see run today as there are far better options. In the coupe you could run a T56 and have two overdrive gears.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Regarding pin drive configuration; the Gen3 Coupe chassis was designed around using the FFR proprietary spindles and unlike the roadster does not have provisions to mount the UCA in a raised position to accommodate Mustang spindles with the pin drive spindle adapter. I was able to examine a Gen3 Coupe that was built with Mustang spindles and pin drive adapters with the UCA mounted in the lower (only available) location and this is the wonky geometry that resulted:

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=184865&d=1594730510

The camber changes that would occur during bump and rebound would be ridiculous...and I'd hate to even think about the resulting bump steer!

At the rear, the IRS is not compatible with pin drive width so the only option there is a narrowed solid axle.

Just some info for you to consider.

Jeff

[Corsair66]

What's your goal in building this car? Will it be a street car or track car? Is this an exercise in building as faithful a reproduction as possible?

Very fair questions. As always, start with defining the mission. I'm planning to drive the car on the street, but will also track it and participate in the occasional "Texas Mile"-type event.


You mention duplicating the original car's performance envelope a few times. Is this really what you want?

What I'm chiefly talking about here is the top speed. Thinking about the Texas Mile and perhaps cracking 200 MPH.


The car was incredible for its time, but modern technology (overdrive trans, fuel injection, IRS, coil overs, etc.) means that most coupes built today far exceed the original car's performance, comfort, handling, safety. Do you really want the original car's performance, and nothing more and nothing less, or do you want the best that modern tech offers? No right or wrong answers, just trying to gauge what you're truly after so folks can give more informed decisions.

There are original design elements that I want to duplicate and others that I don't (or can't). Given the modern chassis, certain components will never be the same as the original. The frame is much stiffer and the entire suspension is different - and those are definitely useful improvements. That said, while I'm considering the IRS, I definitely don't want to deal with EFI or anything else electronic on the car. I had a modern EFI on the Ultima I built and I didn't enjoy dealing with it.

I want to have 15" pin drive wheels for the looks, proportion, and nod to history. The FFR adaptors (the lug nut covers) are hideous and a dead giveaway that it's not a real pin drive. To my mind, it's like wearing a fake Rolex - who would I be trying to kid?

So, I'd like to have the original car's top speed and acceleration (or a similar balance between the two). Handling should be better given the new chassis and suspension components. Comfort is what it is, though I will install A/C. I'm on the fence about power steering; it's nice in a modern car, but not really necessary in the Coupe. I didn't have it on the Ultima and didn't miss it, though that car was a bit lighter than the Coupe (and much higher HP).


The toploader, for example, is not a trans you'd typically see run today as there are far better options. In the coupe you could run a T56 and have two overdrive gears.

From all of my reading and research, the TKX is looking like a good option. I don't anticipate a lot of freeway driving in this car, as it'll be used for short, local drives on weekend mornings (cars & coffee, etc.) or on the track.

[Corsair66]

I'm following a similar plan. I've settled for "vintage-ish" for a number of reasons.
-I'm using the Factory Five 15" wheels with the 5 lugs. I think they have pin drive available in that size as well. Some runs Avons. My understanding is that they are super sticky and wear quickly. Oh, and very expensive! I'm using Mickey Thompson Sportsman S/T. Only have minimal mileage, but happy so far.

I don't mind the price of the Avons, but wouldn't want to have to change tires frequently. I'll look into the Mickey Thompsons - thanks for the suggestion!


-I have power steering. Most would recommend this. Manual is doable, but will be a bear in a parking lot. Some say it tracks better at speed with power steering, but I cannot confirm.
-You can mount the emergency brake anywhere you want if you can weld. The brackets are set up for the tunnel mount.

Fair enough on both points. I'll keep mulling the power steering, but am admittedly leaning toward doing without it. I could gas weld once upon a time, but have never touched a Tig torch.


-You're going to need a TKX or similar if your going to run that kind of horsepower. A toploader is a 4 speed, correct? You'll miss having an overdrive if you plan to drive on a freeway at all.

Right, the original toploader is a 4-speed. The TKO and the current TKX are, in many ways, its much-improved descendants, especially the TKX. The fifth gear should do well enough for rare freeway driving. The T56 is likely overkill for me.


-Most run 3.55 rear ends. You'll see anywhere from 3.27-4.11. TKX makes both long and short gearing combos. There are plenty of online calculators to estimate RPM and speed in different gears with different rear ends, gearboxes and tire sizes.

I've begun to play with those calculators and will see what 3.55 gets me, top speed-wise.


-The CSX2299 had a suped-up 289. I'm running a 302 bored and stroked to 347. Webbers will fit with mine. I'm running a Holley carb till I get it titled. A 351 has a taller deck, so don't know if Webbers will fit.

Good point on the height of the 351. Sounds like your setup might be exactly the right way to go.


-The CSX2299 was a race car with minimal street manners and likely not easy to drive around town. You'll have to decide what you want your experience to be. If you're building a track car, you can stick to the original formula. If you want to cruise around town with the wife, you may not be happy without making some concessions to modernity.

It'll be both a street car (for short, local drives) and a track car. My wife didn't care much for the Ultima (or the Ferrari, for that matter) and much prefers the MB. That said, she'll come along occasionally and be glad that I'm not taking her flying anymore. :-)

[drewr]

184867184868184869

Here's mine as it now stands. Engine looks correct (I have Webbers for later). Gerling reservoirs. I went with Boig Quiet Pipes in deference to my neighbors. You can spend more blinging up the engine with correct FIA valve covers, correct oil pan, dual outlet water line from the intake, etc. Like I said, I went "vintage-ish".

[Corsair66]

Looks great! A few questions:

- Who built your engine?
- What seat is that?
- Did you have to cut the tunnel cover plate to accommodate the shifter position?
- What switches did you add to the FFR standard set? The three to the left of the A/C controls are extra, right?

[drewr]

Looks great! A few questions:

- Who built your engine?
- What seat is that?
- Did you have to cut the tunnel cover plate to accommodate the shifter position?
- What switches did you add to the FFR standard set? The three to the left of the A/C controls are extra, right?

Thanks!
-I built the engine myself. Got a nice 302 out of a 1995 Ford F150 in a junkyard, stripped it down and sent to a local machine shop for cleaning, magnaflux, boring, honing, decking, balancing, etc. I put in a new rotating assembly, AFR 185 aluminum heads, COMP cam, roller rockers, hydraulic lifters, etc. March front end.
-Seat is the FFR vintage low back racing seat that comes with the complete kit. You get 2.
-Yes I had to cut that new hole in the tunnel cover to accommodate the TKX shifter position. There are 3 possible positions for the TKX. Mine is the middle position. It is possible to get it closer to the dash with an adapter kit, but I liked the raked forward shifter look.
-The AC controls are FFR Vintage Air controls that come with their AC package. The other three are FFR toggle switches, 2 for the fog lights and the fan, the other is the wiper switch that came with the FFR wiper kit. I made the sloping middle console out of a piece of aluminum to approximate the look of the original. You could design that however you want.

[GThompson]

I bought my (late gen 1) kit 16 years ago to do a similar build. Life got in the way and priorities have changed. The older kits IMHO allowed for more of what you’re wanting to do. Take a look at my signature, has lots of details you mentioned. I also added some details 2299 had like the white Le Mans identification light behind the passenger window, the oil level check door in the nose, same number of rivets on the hatch holding the acrylic window to the steel hatch frame, springs to secure the sidepipes to the frame, the vent tube to the driver’s foot box from the nose vent, and the parking brake lever on top of the tunnel. FFR isn’t making a pin-drive-width IRS anymore, the one they made (that I have on mine) is based on the T-bird SC from the 90s. I have Webers on my 302 but they’re the more streetable IDFs, not the best-for-racing IDAs, they fit great under the nose and look great through the vent hole in the nose in the turkey pan I built around them.

Anyway, good luck on your build!!

[Corsair66]

Lots of great info; thanks!

I've pretty well decided to forego the IRS and go with the 3-link in pin drive width. Some additional questions I've been pondering:

- How are guys masking the roundels? They’d look terrible if not perfectly round, so I figure that there must be templates available from somewhere.
- Referring to Vintage Wheels FIA pin drive page (https://vintagewheelsus.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=59_112), the first set listed specifically mentions the Gen 3 standard width setup, while the third set listed refers to a narrower, pin drive width. Can I order the latter set and save the $1,200?
- If using a 302 block and the TKX, would the shifter clear the diagonal frame member over the tunnel, as well as fit the round hole in the standard tunnel cover plate? It looks as though a lot of guys are having to fabricate from scratch in this area to suit their perhaps non-standard builds. A lot of those guys might be Coyote users, which I definitely won’t be doing.
- Will FFR supply an 8.8 Moser rear end in anything other than 3.55? I've been thinking about going with the 3.08 or maybe the 3.15. If they won't do it, I'll need to source the differential elsewhere - probably right from Moser.
- Any thoughts on Prestige Motorsports as an engine builder/supplier? I also need to call Blueprint and see if they'll customize one of their packages for me.

Right now, I'm planning to order the car once I get back from vacation in about two weeks. I should probably order the engine at the same time to account for delays. FFR is currently tracking an October delivery.

[Lemmingstyle]

Maybe you should consider a Dart 289 block.
You can get much more hp out of the blocks vs standard.
These can be bored to a 363 cui

[Jeff Kleiner]

Lots of great info; thanks!

I've pretty well decided to forego the IRS and go with the 3-link in pin drive width. Some additional questions I've been pondering:

- How are guys masking the roundels? They’d look terrible if not perfectly round, so I figure that there must be templates available from somewhere.
- Referring to Vintage Wheels FIA pin drive page (https://vintagewheelsus.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=59_112), the first set listed specifically mentions the Gen 3 standard width setup, while the third set listed refers to a narrower, pin drive width. Can I order the latter set and save the $1,200?
- If using a 302 block and the TKX, would the shifter clear the diagonal frame member over the tunnel, as well as fit the round hole in the standard tunnel cover plate? It looks as though a lot of guys are having to fabricate from scratch in this area to suit their perhaps non-standard builds. A lot of those guys might be Coyote users, which I definitely won’t be doing.
- Will FFR supply an 8.8 Moser rear end in anything other than 3.55? I've been thinking about going with the 3.08 or maybe the 3.15. If they won't do it, I'll need to source the differential elsewhere - probably right from Moser.
- Any thoughts on Prestige Motorsports as an engine builder/supplier? I also need to call Blueprint and see if they'll customize one of their packages for me.

Right now, I'm planning to order the car once I get back from vacation in about two weeks. I should probably order the engine at the same time to account for delays. FFR is currently tracking an October delivery.

When I do roundels I have masking sheets laser cut by a sign maker

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=185375&d=1649167156

Refer to post #4 regarding my thoughts on pin drive width with a Gen 3 Coupe...the rear is easy, it's the front that's problematic

Jeff

[Corsair66]

Refer to post #4 regarding my thoughts on pin drive width with a Gen 3 Coupe...the rear is easy, it's the front that's problematic

Jeff

Hi Jeff,

Good morning.

Yes, I saw that post and the photo. Yikes! Clearly, I don't want to wind up in that situation.

When you refer to Mustang spindles and pin drive adaptors, are those the stock FFR spindles and the Vintage Wheels-type pin drive adaptors? Check my link (in post #11) for the relevant Vintage Wheels page. Calling them to sort out their offerings is next on my list.

Ken

[Jeff Kleiner]

Hi Jeff,

Good morning.

Yes, I saw that post and the photo. Yikes! Clearly, I don't want to wind up in that situation.

When you refer to Mustang spindles and pin drive adaptors, are those the stock FFR spindles and the Vintage Wheels-type pin drive adaptors? Check my link (in post #11) for the relevant Vintage Wheels page. Calling them to sort out their offerings is next on my list.

Ken

No. That refers to using spindles from a donor Mustang and FFR spindle adapters specific to the narrow pin drive width. The Factory Five proprietary spindles that the GEN3 chassis was designed for do not accommodate the narrow pin drive width. The spindles are totally separate from the wheel adapters.

Jeff

[defilade]

I'm a little late to the party but mine is a 351 Windsor and it fits with Webers. This is a Gen 1 so you should double-check that the Gen 3 isn't too different, but there must be folks running this setup in a Gen 3.

190768