Drive train very noisy

[daxtojeiro]

Hi all,
I have a very noisy drive train when decelerating and when lifting the clutch up, it sounds like its all under strain making a wining noise.
Its the IRS setup, with Ford 347 and TKX gearbox.

I thought it was the second hand diff I fitted, so I have now fitted a new one and its still the same.

I've just looked at the pinion angles and they were 5deg and 3deg, so I have got those to 1.5 and 0.5 now, but I don't feel this would have been the problem.

Im now worried that its the engine to gearbox alignment. (See picture)
I did the dial alignment on it, but decided it was probably as good as I was going to get it as the smallest offset dowel I could get was bigger than the error, Im now wondering if I have cocked this up and I need to take the engine / gearbox out to get it closer?

Any help with my issue would be greatly appreciated as I can't drive it like it is, I have attached a picture of the alignment :(

182762

[michael everson]

I doubt it’s the bell alignment. Any noise just sitting idling? Try driving it and shut the engine off and out of gear. This will isolate engine or transmission.
Mike

[David Williamson]

You will hear more gear noise than a production car because of the solid bushings and lack of isolation between the running gear and the frame so it could be normal. But since we are not there to hear it had to know if it is normal or not.
David W

[daxtojeiro]

I doubt it’s the bell alignment. Any noise just sitting idling? Try driving it and shut the engine off and out of gear. This will isolate engine or transmission.
Mike

Hi Mike, thanks for that, I will try it, I also have some microphones that attach to parts of the car I will connect these and try to isolate where the noise is coming from.

Its fine idling and even under light load its OK, but as soon as you decelerate it makes a noise that doesn't sound good to me. Even lifting the clutch up when changing gear you can hear the same noise.

thanks
Phil

[daxtojeiro]

You will hear more gear noise than a production car because of the solid bushings and lack of isolation between the running gear and the frame so it could be normal. But since we are not there to hear it had to know if it is normal or not.
David W

Hi Dave

yeah I have a cobra so I know what you mean, but this is not a healthy noise in my opinion. So much so I bought and fitted a new diff as I was convinced it was that :(

thanks
Phil

[michael everson]

Is it in all gears? I suppose you could have gotten a bad transmission. There is fluid in it right?

Mike

[David Williamson]

chasing problems can be frustrating but you will get it fixed, good luck. I have the engine in my Coupe apart right now becase it was burning oil, bad valve guides on an engine with under 5000 miles. Looks like the RHS heads were manufactured poorly.
David W

[daxtojeiro]

Is it in all gears? I suppose you could have gotten a bad transmission. There is fluid in it right?

Mike

Hi Mike,
yeah it is in all gears and I even checked the oil level today, as I was questioning myself, it was fine :)

My worry is that I will break something in the drive train and those parts are not cheap, but everything I look at all seems fine and it is all new :(

thanks for all the help
Phil

[GT_Rich]

Are the numbers in your bellhousing picture thousandths of an inch? If so, I think .009" is too much. Summit sells pins with a hex head so you can turn them until it's all zero.

[LateApex]

The accel versus decel differences in noise is a clue. This does not sound like basic axial alignment; rather end play. But where ???

If you do pull the tranny, you may wish to look at end play. Hard to diagnose methinks with the tranny in place. Although you may try to assess that all buttoned up. Is there any North South play measured at the differential flange?

Just thinking out loud :-) Good luck!!

[LateApex]

Hi Mike, thanks for that, I will try it, I also have some microphones that attach to parts of the car I will connect these and try to isolate where the noise is coming from.

Its fine idling and even under light load its OK, but as soon as you decelerate it makes a noise that doesn't sound good to me. Even lifting the clutch up when changing gear you can hear the same noise.

thanks
Phil

What exactly do you mean by "lifting the clutch up"? Are you down shifting, and when the clutch engages, is this when you hear the noise?

Do you notice any differences when you are coasting (decelerating) downhill, versus coasting uphill?

What clutch are you using?

[LateApex]

I hear "noises" all the time. Drives me bug****. Yesterday, I am out taking the coupe for 90 minutes, and I have this rattle that comes up once in awhile. Nothing appears to be falling off the vehicle, and it disappears after a bit. I am convinced it is in the exhaust baffles. But I am probably wrong :-) I think I will always be tweaking and chasing sounds after building this little beast - HaHa! Your sounds seem a bit more significant.

[daxtojeiro]

Are the numbers in your bellhousing picture thousandths of an inch? If so, I think .009" is too much. Summit sells pins with a hex head so you can turn them until it's all zero.

Hi

they are in inches, but from what I've read the difference needs to be halved, so I am JUST in the 0.005" spec I think?

thanks
Phil

[daxtojeiro]

What exactly do you mean by "lifting the clutch up"? Are you down shifting, and when the clutch engages, is this when you hear the noise?

Do you notice any differences when you are coasting (decelerating) downhill, versus coasting uphill?

What clutch are you using?

Hi,
it is as the clutch engages, seems to give the same noise as when decelerating, although it may not be related as the thrust bearing is a little noisy at idle in neutral.

Its a McLeod clutch, I haven't tried it down hill, to be honest I have limped along in it when I have used it, putting the clutch in to let it coast then accelerating again as it slows down, I'm convinced I'm going to break it.

I really don't want to take the engine out again

thanks
Phil

[LateApex]

Hi,
it is as the clutch engages, seems to give the same noise as when decelerating, although it may not be related as the thrust bearing is a little noisy at idle in neutral.

Its a McLeod clutch, I haven't tried it down hill, to be honest I have limped along in it when I have used it, putting the clutch in to let it coast then accelerating again as it slows down, I'm convinced I'm going to break it.

I really don't want to take the engine out again

thanks
Phil

Hmmm ... it seems to me that a thrust bearing should never be even a "little noisy".

FWIW, I don't think you want to be limping along on your coupe, or scared you are going to break it. It seems that there is something going on that may suggest you need to pull engine and tranny to get to the bottom of it.

You said "again". Have you had to pull the engine once before?

You will solve this :-)

[daxtojeiro]

Hmmm ... it seems to me that a thrust bearing should never be even a "little noisy".

FWIW, I don't think you want to be limping along on your coupe, or scared you are going to break it. It seems that there is something going on that may suggest you need to pull engine and tranny to get to the bottom of it.

You said "again". Have you had to pull the engine once before?

You will solve this :-)

Yeah, the engine had an issue with running rough when I bought it, so I had to send it back, turned out to be the distributor.

OK, so it looks like I need to pull the thing out, I guess its the alignment I need to be looking at, although it doesn't seem to be that far out. Anything else I should look at whilst its out?

I will just clip my microphones on the gearbox and diff to make sure it is the gearbox end, see if I can record the noise maybe.

thanks for all the help!
Phil

182842

[daxtojeiro]

Sused it out and I'm an idiot :(

I forgot my DTI is metric, so I couldn't understand why my figures would give me such an issue. Stupid mistake, but at least I now know it is that gearbox alignment.
I'm from the UK, in-case anyone wonders, we tend to measure everything in mm, not inches.

I have a feeling I can do the dowels without removing the engine, I'm going to try and slide the gearbox back and do it. I have a pit and a trans jack, if not the whole lot will have to come out :(

thanks for all the help.
Phil

[David Williamson]

it's a pain but at least you know what the problem is now.
David W

[michael everson]

So your saying you out as much as .9MM or .035 inches? Find that hard to believe. Is that a ford bell housing? I can be pretty sure ford never dialed in each drivetrain. I dont think there is even that much play between the bell housing and the mating part on the transmission.
Mike

[J R Jones]

I have been watching this thread and it is odd. Phil, your noise sounds like a dynamic situation not static. With proper torque your transmission and bell housing become one, no dynamic movement.
I do not understand "thrust bearing". That is the term used on the crankshaft main bearing to limit axial displacement. Clutch actuation does push the crankshaft but if that was the noise source it would "on/off" with the clutch. The throw out bearing (should) turn only when the clutch pedal loads it to pull the friction disc away from the flywheel. The TOB is static otherwise. The pilot bushing is quite small and there is relative motion only when the clutch pulls the friction disc and input shaft away from the flywheel. I do not believe deceleration would cause the input shaft to move in the pilot bushing.
Your powertrain torques one way under power, and the opposite way when decelerating. Look for deceleration displacement interference, everywhere. The displacement is greater the further from the powertrain centerline. (exhaust?) I have never had to fuss with the transmission to bellhousing fit, it always just worked. If you and others are convinced that is a problem, you could try loosening the transmission mount bolts to "snug" and do a brief evaluation to see if the noise changes.
jim

[daxtojeiro]

Hi all,
thanks for the replies, really appreciate the help. I am still trying to figure it all out, but I have got a little further with it:

I used some clip on microphones and found the noise is worse at the bellhousing, still present at the rear of the gearbox, but nothing at the diff.

The noise sounds like a bearing that's under stress, although this is only my mind telling me this.

When cold there is very little noise, but within half a mile it is audible.

Its worse under deceleration, but it is present under acceleration and can be heard starting as the clutch comes up. Whilst the clutch is down it is quiet.

I was hoping it is the gearbox - engine alignment, unless it could be something really simple to fix of course.
I have now got some offset dowels, we don't have anyone in the UK who stocks them, so have had to get them from the States, but dont really know if its worth the effort at the moment.

Loosening the gearbox is a good idea, certainly something I can easily try.

Its an aftermarket Aluminium bell housing, I bought it with the Gearbox.

https://roadcraftuk.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&path=45_138&product_id=546

thanks again for the help.

[daxtojeiro]

I have been watching this thread and it is odd. Phil, your noise sounds like a dynamic situation not static. With proper torque your transmission and bell housing become one, no dynamic movement.
I do not understand "thrust bearing". That is the term used on the crankshaft main bearing to limit axial displacement. Clutch actuation does push the crankshaft but if that was the noise source it would "on/off" with the clutch. The throw out bearing (should) turn only when the clutch pedal loads it to pull the friction disc away from the flywheel. The TOB is static otherwise. The pilot bushing is quite small and there is relative motion only when the clutch pulls the friction disc and input shaft away from the flywheel. I do not believe deceleration would cause the input shaft to move in the pilot bushing.
Your powertrain torques one way under power, and the opposite way when decelerating. Look for deceleration displacement interference, everywhere. The displacement is greater the further from the powertrain centerline. (exhaust?) I have never had to fuss with the transmission to bellhousing fit, it always just worked. If you and others are convinced that is a problem, you could try loosening the transmission mount bolts to "snug" and do a brief evaluation to see if the noise changes.
jim

Thanks Jim,
I have had to read this several times to understand it all, but I now understand what you mean and how the clutch system works, so thanks for the explanation. This has really helped me get some idea of whats going on.
Phil

[Ducky2009]

Make a video so we can hear it. Talk over the video... is it in gear, in neutral, clutch engaged or to the floor, etc...

[J R Jones]

Hi all,
thanks for the replies, really appreciate the help. I am still trying to figure it all out, but I have got a little further with it:

I used some clip on microphones and found the noise is worse at the bellhousing, still present at the rear of the gearbox, but nothing at the diff.

The noise sounds like a bearing that's under stress, although this is only my mind telling me this.

When cold there is very little noise, but within half a mile it is audible.

Its worse under deceleration, but it is present under acceleration and can be heard starting as the clutch comes up. Whilst the clutch is down it is quiet.

I was hoping it is the gearbox - engine alignment, unless it could be something really simple to fix of course.
I have now got some offset dowels, we don't have anyone in the UK who stocks them, so have had to get them from the States, but dont really know if its worth the effort at the moment.

Loosening the gearbox is a good idea, certainly something I can easily try.

Its an aftermarket Aluminium bell housing, I bought it with the Gearbox.

https://roadcraftuk.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&path=45_138&product_id=546

thanks again for the help.

I am not a transmission expert. Your recent microphone troubleshooting step suggests an internal transmission problem. My guess is the main shaft and/or the secondary shaft support bearing/bushing fit is loose, causing the shafts to pitch and the gear to gear engagement to become noisy.
jim

[daxtojeiro]

Hi all,

OK, so I have a recording of the noise. This is clamped on the front of the gearbox. Its pretty much as the car shifts from under power to deceleration, like the backlash caused by the change in direction of force is causing the noise.

At high speed it is pretty much there all the time, maybe around 50MPH and over.

Thanks for the help!!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/vfb00sgnremmmli/Voice%20003.m4a?dl=0

[J R Jones]

Your recording is ambitious and I think I heard gear noise in gear sequence but I can not tell when the noise is decell VS accel.

In your specific TKX transmission, is there a gear ratio that is 1 to 1? Not an under drive like 1, 2 & 3, and not over drive like 5 or 6?
In a 1 to 1 gear ratio the main shaft is coupled together and no power goes through the secondary shaft, therefore eliminating it as a suspect.
Traditional four speed and three speed top gears are 1 to 1.
Does your decell noise occur in all gears, especially your 1 to 1 gear ratio selection?
The consistency of noise in your recording suggests a main shaft issue.

[daxtojeiro]

Your recording is ambitious and I think I heard gear noise in gear sequence but I can not tell when the noise is decell VS accel.

In your specific TKX transmission, is there a gear ratio that is 1 to 1? Not an under drive like 1, 2 & 3, and not over drive like 5 or 6?
In a 1 to 1 gear ratio the main shaft is coupled together and no power goes through the secondary shaft, therefore eliminating it as a suspect.
Traditional four speed and three speed top gears are 1 to 1.
Does your decell noise occur in all gears, especially your 1 to 1 gear ratio selection?
The consistency of noise in your recording suggests a main shaft issue.

thanks for that, I will try it in 4th, as this is 1:1 ratio.

However, it does look like I have a brand new TKX gearbox which is faulty. It's now 18 months old with a grand total of 50 miles on it.
How are Tremec with warrantee claims ? Its painful enough to get it out, let alone having to pay for it to be fixed :(

[J R Jones]

Regardless of warranty a "service adjustment" is a possibility. You should be in communication with TKX customer service. They have more experience in this area than we consumers. They may be interested in your audio recording.
With your high end vehicle and visibility, you are a market influencer and you qualify for special consideration. Moreover they should know what is wrong with the transmission, if that is the noise source.
jim

[daxtojeiro]

Regardless of warranty a "service adjustment" is a possibility. You should be in communication with TKX customer service. They have more experience in this area than we consumers. They may be interested in your audio recording.
With your high end vehicle and visibility, you are a market influencer and you qualify for special consideration. Moreover they should know what is wrong with the transmission, if that is the noise source.
jim

Hi Jim,
I have now sent them an email, lets hope they can shed some light on it.

Thanks everyone for all the help, I will let you all know as and when I get this sorted

thanks again
Phil

[Ford & Jeep Fan]

I did listen to your recording. What is your daily driver?? I ask because I'm sure this is the car you are comparing Your coupe to when you say, it is noisy. If you kit came with the The polyurethane mounts that transfer just slightly less noise than solid metal mounts. over the past 30 years the OEM car companies have been laser focused on NVH reduction.

I'd bet Tremec can't find a issue with the trans.

[daxtojeiro]

I did listen to your recording. What is your daily driver?? I ask because I'm sure this is the car you are comparing Your coupe to when you say, it is noisy. If you kit came with the The polyurethane mounts that transfer just slightly less noise than solid metal mounts. over the past 30 years the OEM car companies have been laser focused on NVH reduction.

I'd bet Tremec can't find a issue with the trans.


Hi
My daily is a 40 year old Porsche 944, (transaxle) which has bearing whines, gearbox groans and generally it rumbles like an old cart, my other car is a Cobra kit that I've had for 20 odd years with a T5 in it.

Trust me, I'd love this to be normal, but I can't help thinking it really shouldn't be there, maybe I need to do a better recording of it, but it is really hard to capture the sound with the exhausts making so much noise.

thanks
Phil

[phils88gt]

I'm fixated on the rattle. Do you hear that or is in the microphone bouncing around? The rattle sounds like the fork bouncing on the release bearing and the pressure plate. Is this a cable clutch car?

I only one one metric dial test indicator and it's 0.01mm graduations if you are 0.09mm that's only 0.003" no worries.

[daxtojeiro]

Hi all,

I spoke with the supplier of the gearbox and they told me that the parallel alignment is also very important to check, despite this not being mentioned anywhere in the literature I received with the gearbox. I can barely find any info on this even on the internet either.

I have also contacted Tremec 3 times and had no response apart from an acknowledgment of receipt.

As the supplier had mentioned the parallel alignment, I added an 0.008" shim to the top of the block / bell housing and the noise was exactly the same.

So I had to remove the gearbox, as it was driving me mad not knowing if this is OK or not. It does come out without the engine, JUST!

I checked the concentricity alignment and it has just under 0.005" total error, so that's fine. The parallel alignment was 0.010" out without the shim in place.

With the shim in place (top of block / bell housing) the parallel alignment was 0.003" out and the concentricity is now 0.010" out total.

So with both setups as above the noise was the same.

Anyway, I have just checked the input shaft and I can move it 0.020" in all directions, which seems a little excessive to me?

I feel like I'm getting no where with this, Tremec aren't replying to my emails, my supplier isn't going to offer any help and I don't know if I can send it anywhere to be repaired (Im in the UK). I'm now considering buying a different gearbox from another manufacturer as Tremec don't seem to care and I have a car I can't use.

thnaks
Phil

[daxtojeiro]

A little video of the input shaft play, it's in 0.01mm, works out at a total of 0.020" :

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/7msycvqmpls5ar9807j9g/20230719_213055.mp4?rlkey=j4a8486qx3qfsypac7plcpj3 l&dl=0

thanks
Phil

[Its Bruce]

Have you tried driving on the CORRECT side of the road to see if goes away? :p. I lived a year in the UK, so I have immunity.

[J R Jones]

Your input shaft deflection is cantilevered out from the (ball?) bearing, some distance; it does not look like enough to be a noise source and the end of the shaft is seated in the pilot bushing, in the crankshaft.
Does the input shaft/bearing spin freely and smoothly?
jim

[daxtojeiro]

Your input shaft deflection is cantilevered out from the (ball?) bearing, some distance; it does not look like enough to be a noise source and the end of the shaft is seated in the pilot bushing, in the crankshaft.
Does the input shaft/bearing spin freely and smoothly?
jim

Yeah, the bearing seems fine, but I guess that would be noisy when the clutch was pressed down, rather than when in gear?

thanks
Phil

[J R Jones]

Phil, With the clutch pedal down, the clutch pulls away from the friction disc. The disc and input shaft stop turning. At that point the crankshaft and pilot bushing are spinning on the stationary input shaft.

BTW since you have noise since my 1 to 1 (4th gear?) question, I assume it is noisy in that condition (with the secondary shaft disengaged). That eliminates part of the transmission.
Another poster touched on noise without load, that can be tested two ways:
At vehicle speed, shift to neutral and coast: noise or no noise?
At vehicle speed (all gears) push down the clutch pedal to uncouple the engine and coast; noise or differing noise through the gear selections?
Does the coast-down drag differ from gear to gear?
jim

[Ford & Jeep Fan]

Phil, With the clutch pedal down, the clutch pulls away from the friction disc. The disc and input shaft stop turning. At that point the crankshaft and pilot bushing are spinning on the stationary input shaft.
..........

At vehicle speed (all gears) push down the clutch pedal to uncouple the engine and coast; noise or differing noise through the gear selections?
.......
jim

I like this idea I'd add shut the engine OFF and listen for drive train noise.

[Erik W. Treves]

"Its a McLeod clutch" - dual disk ? My McLeod clutch is very noisy -

[daxtojeiro]

Hi all,
sorry for the delay in updating this, to be honest I've been fed up with it and couldn't be bothered with it for a while.

Anyway, I have removed the gearbox and found the parallelism of the bell housing to the flywheel was out by 0.010" top to bottom. The suppler of the gearbox told me this is as critical as the concentricity, although I couldn't find any info about this on the tremec site, so I have added some shims to the block / bell housing mounting area and managed to get the parallelism to 0.002" and the concentricity to 0.004"

I also found the input shaft of the gearbox had a shed load of play on the taper bearing, I had to increase the shims by 0.003" to take up the play, now that is all good.

Anyway, I put the gearbox back in and its still the same!

I've had no replies at all from Tremec and my supplier doesn't seem to think it's his issue, especially as I've had it for 2 years. I am now at a total loss as to what to do next, apart from buy another gearbox, which is not really something I want to do but it is looking like its my only option.

Here's a link to the noise, it's at it's noisiest when the car is cruising at that point where engine is hardly pushing the car forwards, (like the backlash of the gears) but if you power it on through the revs you can still hear it. I also feel I can hear it with the clutch held down and shifting down the gears without engaging the clutch again, it is very quiet whilst doing that, but I feel I can still hear the same noise,

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/3bcq7g6td9hyurmtkbtlc/Gearbox.m4a?rlkey=x1chcbq9kyixpgg9o8rlx9phb&dl=0

thanks
Phil

[Mastertech5]

That's nasty. Pull it back out and disassemble/inspect, if that's in your realm of capability, or replace it. It's seems obviously damaged, bearing or gear.

[daxtojeiro]

Hi all,

Well it looks like it's all my fault!

The engine / gearbox has always sat off centre in my chassis and I assumed this was the way it was designed to fit, as there didn't appear to be any adjustment for it.

But after sitting under the car for a few hours I have just seen that the gearbox mount is off-set and I've put it on the wrong way around!

The manual shows it setup for a TKO box and that's how I have mounted the bracket, but that just pushes the gearbox over to one side. I have just swapped it over and the gearbox lines up with the middle of the chassis :)

Got to look at the shifter now as thats hitting the chassis, but I bet thats my issue, I really hope it is and that I havent done any damage! :)

Thanks for all the advise and help, just goes to show you can't account for what an idi*t will do :)

Fingers crossed it will be the end of this :)

Phil

[Mastertech5]

Let us know! I'll be glad for you if I was wrong.

[David Williamson]

The engine and trans are offset about 3/4 inch to the right in the frame, this is normal and the same as the old Mustangs.
David W

[daxtojeiro]

The engine and trans are offset about 3/4 inch to the right in the frame, this is normal and the same as the old Mustangs.
David W

Hi David,
mine was offset to the left (looking at it from sitting in the car) where as now its slightly offset to the right - same side as the diff offset.Hopefully I will have it all done tomorrow and I can try it, I really hope its fixed the issue,
thanks
Phil

[daxtojeiro]

YES!!! It's fixed it :) :)

Cant tell you how relieved I am that it's all OK, can't believe the manual shows the bracket in the wrong way around, anyway, thanks for all the advise :)

Phil

[Nigel Allen]

Fantastic! So pleased for you. A great result after much pain.

Cheers,

Nige

[LateApex]

Have you gotten any confirmation from FFR on the error in the documentation? You have got me wondering now (I am 347 / TKO), and I am about to put the car in the air to take another look ... hmmm

Just crawled under the Coupe (with a little help from my jackstands) and confirmed that I installed the tranny mount "flipped", such that the offset is to the PS, and the flange is UP. The illustration is indeed incorrect in revision 4R of the manual (on p. 215). Yikes! The folks writing the doc have not actually built a car, and there appears to be no review by somebody who has .... Grrrr!

I got lucky, as installing the motor/tranny required a lot of shenanigans to align motor mounts (required a LOT of "persuasion" to get bolts in place), and I ignored the manual to get the job done. I've always notice the PS offset. This is really noticeable at the rear axle if one is measuring gap to the body work or frame. I have not verified this yet, but I suspect the front wheel / rear wheel tracking is offset by that 3/4".

So sorry you had to spend so much time chasing this down ...

[Mastertech5]

The part that is offset to the passenger side is the pinion shaft. It is not centered in the housing, normal.

[daxtojeiro]

Have you gotten any confirmation from FFR on the error in the documentation? You have got me wondering now (I am 347 / TKO), and I am about to put the car in the air to take another look ... hmmm

Just crawled under the Coupe (with a little help from my jackstands) and confirmed that I installed the tranny mount "flipped", such that the offset is to the PS, and the flange is UP. The illustration is indeed incorrect in revision 4R of the manual (on p. 215). Yikes! The folks writing the doc have not actually built a car, and there appears to be no review by somebody who has .... Grrrr!

I got lucky, as installing the motor/tranny required a lot of shenanigans to align motor mounts (required a LOT of "persuasion" to get bolts in place), and I ignored the manual to get the job done. I've always notice the PS offset. This is really noticeable at the rear axle if one is measuring gap to the body work or frame. I have not verified this yet, but I suspect the front wheel / rear wheel tracking is offset by that 3/4".

So sorry you had to spend so much time chasing this down ...

Thanks for the reply, it's good that you fitted yours wrong (which turned out right) and mine too was quite some work to get fitted once I'd figured it out. I had to cut the chassis for the gear lever to fit through and the gearbox needed levering over to get the bracket to line up, but its all good now and runs lovely.

I did think about letting FFR know, but having had nothing buy pain from trying to get a response from them in the past I decided I couldn't go through any more

thanks
Phil