Rivets and quality of different ones

[Just 1 More]

I ordered a few packs of 1/8 rivets off amazon and these things feel very cheap and "pop" very easy. I would like a better quality rivet that might have a little more holding force. I may be over thinking this but surely there has to be a difference in the quality of different brands of rivets.

[narly1]

I guess you could always compare by joining pieces of scrap together with the different rivets you have and see how well they perform.

Earl

[JohnK]

Personally, I'd just buy rivets from a reputable source. McMaster-Carr shows shear strength and tensile strength numbers for all their rivets, which are available in many different materials and sizes. If you want more strength than a regular aluminum rivet for a particular situation, then go with a stainless steel rivet. I've also used Summit "ultimate rivets" in both 1/8" and 3/16" and they're good. Amazon is good for a lot of stuff but I'm not so sure that quality rivets is one of those things.

[facultyofmusic]

Side note: I've had to drill out quite a few rivets during my build for various reasons. I would be no fun trying to drill out stainless steel rivets. The rivets used to hold sheet aluminum together don't need to be very strong at all.

[rthomas98]

I would not over think it too much. If the rivet is breaking in a weird place (had some break in the middle of the shaft) that would be a concern. But remember that the rivet is a part of the bond the other part is the silicone. Now on the silicone I do have some strong opinions of what to use there. Really stick with the GE like F5 recommends. I had to brand jump a little during the pandemic based on availability and I ended up drilling and redoing a few areas as the silicone crusted up weirdly and created gaps. The areas that I had GE didn't do that.

[F500guy]

Not to say it is a must, check Aircraft Spruce if you want quality, but always a price. Cherry Rivets are the bomb!

[anchoright]

On the topic of rivets, one thing that’s bothering me as I’m studying other builds and learning more, is the quantity of holes being drilled in the framework. It almost begs the question, why powder coat it if there are so many holes drilled afterward that can rust? Is there a rivet that would deter rust forming?

[edwardb]

On the topic of rivets, one thing that’s bothering me as I’m studying other builds and learning more, is the quantity of holes being drilled in the framework. It almost begs the question, why powder coat it if there are so many holes drilled afterward that can rust? Is there a rivet that would deter rust forming?

Keep in mind the instructions show using rivets and adhesive. Most, including me, use an RTV (like GE Silicone 2 or similar) as the build manual shows. There are other products, like Sikaflex, etc., that some prefer. But bottom line once the holes are drilled a bead of adhesive is applied to the joint and if done properly seals things up when the rivets are pulled. I make a point of running the bead right over the holes in the frame so when the rivet goes in, it's coated in adhesive. Plus, while these cars can certainly handle rain and wet weather, for most of us they're fair weather cars and are kept indoors when not driven. Rust in the frame from drilling for rivets is not something to be concerned about IMO.

For the rivet question, the generic aluminum ones in the kit are perfectly adequate if installed per the instructions. 3" spacing panel-to-panel, 4" spacing into frame members. McMaster has a whole bunch of options that are upgrades but most aren't cheap. I do like a few of their specialty ones though. They have countersink versions. Also have heavy duty 3/16" ones that I prefer in some cases over the standard aluminum 3/16" rivets. I agree their website and part selection is especially useful with detailed drawings and specs for all their parts. I've used the Ultimate rivets from Summit as well. The price is certainly right. The larger head pulls the panels into place nicely and they're "multi-grip" meaning they can be used across a wider thickness range. The only downside of that is the back side often isn't that attractive or symmetrical. When I use them, it's typically into frame members where the back side isn't visible. I typically don't use the generic ones sold at the hardware store. As far as Cherry (or Cherry Max) rivets, those are aviation quality rivets that in some cases can be substitutes for solid rivets. Super high quality but at 50 cents and up for each, expensive and way overkill for our application.

[mikeinatlanta]

On the topic of rivets, one thing that’s bothering me as I’m studying other builds and learning more, is the quantity of holes being drilled in the framework. It almost begs the question, why powder coat it if there are so many holes drilled afterward that can rust? Is there a rivet that would deter rust forming?

Exactly why I bought an uncoated frame. That said, each hole requires a cleanout after paint. The most anal out there (me) put all panels on and rivets in "wet". Then again, I'm morally opposed to using blind rivets when having access to the back side. I only use real rivets installed with a rivet gun and bucking bar. When blind are needed, the already mentioned sources of Aircraft Spruce or McMaster are the way to go. If structural blinds are needed for something like a bracket I don't want welded, Cherry Max rivets from Spruce, however, Cherry Max are designed for shear loads so most often I used steel riv-nuts and bolts.

EDIT: By wet I mean installed with the joint and fasters wet with poly-sulfide sealant. RTV is for bathubs. If you do use RTV, make sure and use the type labeled as "low odor". The type that has a strong amonia type of smell contains curing agents that will attack aluminum. Over time it is much more likely to peel off. This applies to all brands of Silicone sealers.

[Skuzzy]

My application is a bit different than most as my car will be a daily driver and I will be driving it for the next ten years. So I look at everything with a critical eye towards longevity and safety.

I am not a big fan of rivets in a car, without another means of attachment. I am not a fan of silicone for this application. I agree with mikeinatlanta, with an exception. I use polysulfides in low vibration areas. In high vibration areas I'll use a polyurethane adhesive.

Both are structural adhesives and can be used in lieu of rivets. I'll use rivets sparingly as both adhesives have very high shear strengths and conformability, allowing disparate materials to expand and contract without losing the bond. Polysulfides are impervious to moisture, while polyurethane has a higher resistance to chemicals. Polysulfides are better for larger gaps.

I am also using a two part expanding foam to fill where I drill holes in the frame. This, along with a polysulfide/polyurethane adhesive, will insure a zero moisture path into the frame.

[Lidodrip]

On the topic of rivets, one thing that’s bothering me as I’m studying other builds and learning more, is the quantity of holes being drilled in the framework. It almost begs the question, why powder coat it if there are so many holes drilled afterward that can rust? Is there a rivet that would deter rust forming?

Keep in mind that the powder coating is only on the outside of the frame. The inside of all the tubes are bare. I used the rivets that came with the kit and some extras from Ace Hardware - never had a problem with either.

James

[Just 1 More]

For those concerned with the inside of the frame, you could always use some Eastwood Internal Frame coating. https://www.eastwood.com/eastwood-internal-frame-coating-14oz-aerosol.html

[mikeinatlanta]

My application is a bit different than most as my car will be a daily driver and I will be driving it for the next ten years. So I look at everything with a critical eye towards longevity and safety.

I am not a big fan of rivets in a car, without another means of attachment. I am not a fan of silicone for this application. I agree with mikeinatlanta, with an exception. I use polysulfides in low vibration areas. In high vibration areas I'll use a polyurethane adhesive.

Both are structural adhesives and can be used in lieu of rivets. I'll use rivets sparingly as both adhesives have very high shear strengths and conformability, allowing disparate materials to expand and contract without losing the bond. Polysulfides are impervious to moisture, while polyurethane has a higher resistance to chemicals. Polysulfides are better for larger gaps.

I am also using a two part expanding foam to fill where I drill holes in the frame. This, along with a polysulfide/polyurethane adhesive, will insure a zero moisture path into the frame.

I too use structural urethan adhesive on many areas. Don't mention it much these days because some seem to take offense at the idea of doing everything to a very high level. Be careful with the urethane in the frame though. Once water finds its way into anything urethane foam filled it can get ugly. The urethan won't penetrate the tiny crevices and that is exactly where water will find its way and do its damage. Sometimes it's better to let water do water. Suggest a quality fluid film corrosion inhibitor and provide a path for any condensation to escape. Something like Fluid Film or ACF-50.

[Dgc333]

FWIW, the only place in the mk2 33 manual that talks about bonding panels is in regards to the floor. They are very specific in the recommendation to use 3M 5200 marine adhesive and not using silicone.

They want both the upper and lower floor panels bonded to the frame and riveted pluss they want the foam cores bonded to both floor panels. Silicone is only mentioned for up gaps and joints.

My plan is during final assembly before laying down the sound deadening material to run bead of silicone along all the joints and fill any gaps that exist in the panels.

[edwardb]

FWIW, the only place in the mk2 33 manual that talks about bonding panels is in regards to the floor. They are very specific in the recommendation to use 3M 5200 marine adhesive and not using silicone.

They want both the upper and lower floor panels bonded to the frame and riveted pluss they want the foam cores bonded to both floor panels. Silicone is only mentioned for up gaps and joints.

My plan is during final assembly before laying down the sound deadening material to run bead of silicone along all the joints and fill any gaps that exist in the panels.

What you're describing with the 3M 5200 is a change they made to the hot rod to better insulate the floor from the exhaust system directly underneath. Added the double aluminum (top and bottom) with insulation glued in between with the 3M product. The truck (what I'm finishing now) had this from the start. I've done several other models and this is the only place they've recommended that specific 3M product.

Using silicone to bond panels is very clearly shown in the Roadster and Coupe manuals plus all the build videos they've done. I don't have a hot rod manual. But I do have the truck manual (very similar) and I have to agree it's not real obvious. But it's there. Tubes of GE Silicone II or equivalent listed in the "Required Supplies" at the beginning of the manual. Everywhere there are aluminum panels installed, "silicone" is listed at the beginning of the section. It's not however always listed when installing the actual rivets. I'm sure it's an oversight. This method of bonding the panels is used on all the Factory Five models. We can debate about the adhesive qualities of various products (and I really don't want to go down that rabbit hole... again...) but whatever you use is intended to be in addition to the rivets for bond strength. Not just caulking around the edges like I think you're describing.

[Skuzzy]

I too use structural urethan adhesive on many areas. Don't mention it much these days because some seem to take offense at the idea of doing everything to a very high level. Be careful with the urethane in the frame though. Once water finds its way into anything urethane foam filled it can get ugly. The urethan won't penetrate the tiny crevices and that is exactly where water will find its way and do its damage. Sometimes it's better to let water do water. Suggest a quality fluid film corrosion inhibitor and provide a path for any condensation to escape. Something like Fluid Film or ACF-50.

I forgot to mention the frame filler, before the foam, although, if I have done it correctly no moisture will ever get passed the polysulfide/polyurethane seals to start with.

The foam also helps dissipate audio energy through the frame. I used it at every source where sound would enter the frame. Such as all the suspension and driveline attachment points.

[frankeeski]

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=182211&d=1680053922

[UpNorth]

Try this place for rivets:

https://aircraft-tool.com

[DanQ]

Send this question to the You Tube channel "Project Farm" He is always asking for ideas on his automotive/tools testing channel.