Manufacturing tolerances F-Panel not lining up

[mrglaeser]

Pulled the body off today and got it on the buck, took photos, tagged all the panels, and stripped everything down to the frame. Started to line up the drivers side F-Panel and it does not line up with angular tube in front at all.

I tried moving it to the left as far as I can and the top lines up to the F-panel but the bottom of the bar still is uncovered by the Panel. So I started taking measurements and the radiator support bar is 1/4 to 3/8 further to the rear of the car on the drivers side than passenger side. Similarly the metal hoop for the dash panel sticks into the cab 3/8-1/2 inch more than the passenger side. I think the square tube that runs along the top of the engine compartment was welded in a 1/4-1/2 inch incorrectly. It doesn't look like anything was bent or knocked out of place.

The passenger side F-panel lines up perfectly. Is this normal or is this something I should bring up with FFR? I'll be able to attach the panel it will just be short 1 rivet at the bottom of that particular angle. Picture for reference but the angle isn't the greatest. I could actually see through a gap to the other side in the spot circled in blue. I'm not sure what a fix would be as there are so many parts welded together.

I've always heard each chassis has it quirks and you have to role with the punches. I can do that - just wanted to ask if I should be worried about this or not.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Home/9999-Factory-Five-Roadster/i-SWT96s7/0/29f5394f/XL/20230304_180202-4Ka-XL.jpg (https://mattglaeser.smugmug.com/Home/9999-Factory-Five-Roadster/i-SWT96s7/A)

[edwardb]

Where you have the cleco, is that the hole made by the screw for shipping? If so, remove the cleco and ignore it. The panels are installed into the frame in shipping at FF. Often "close" but don't use them as the exact location. Fit the panels where they best fit the frame, adjacent pieces, etc. In this case, you can move the F panel to where it has frame underneath to rivet to. It's location isn't particularly critical. As for the differences you're noting with the 3/4" tubes, doubt very much those will be an issue either. The majority of the frame pieces are clamped into a large fixture and the locations are very accurate. Some are hand placed, and sometimes won't be quite as accurate. I suspect that's the case here. This won't be the first time you will run into asymmetry. Just saying.

[JohnK]

As Edwardb noted, don't take the factory screw holes as a definitive indication of where the panels should be located. Hard to tell exactly from your original post what you believe is preventing you from moving the F-panel further forward but it looks like you have it butted up against the weld at the front corner. If that weld is what you believe is keeping you from sliding the F-panel further forward you can just trim the front corner off the F-panel to allow you to slide it further forward.

[MB750]

Yup, ignore the holes FFR made screwing panels down for shipping. If they line up, it's a coincidence.

[mrglaeser]

OK yeah it was a bad photo at the end of the day - we had used some clamps to play with the placement in other ways as well. Maybe these will help.

Here is the best placement I can get for the F-panel. As you can see in that front angle I won't be able to get rivets in the bottom as there is no steel behind it. The angle of the steel is completely wrong. Not that it is a huge deal because of the vertical bar will get a rivet in that area.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Home/9999-Factory-Five-Roadster/i-Bj4kFJj/0/4f027d40/X2/20230305_190839-X2.jpg (https://mattglaeser.smugmug.com/Home/9999-Factory-Five-Roadster/i-Bj4kFJj/A)
https://photos.smugmug.com/Home/9999-Factory-Five-Roadster/i-Hr3jVGx/0/5902c9c2/X2/20230305_190845-X2.jpg (https://mattglaeser.smugmug.com/Home/9999-Factory-Five-Roadster/i-Hr3jVGx/A)
If this is a pretty normal expectation for alignments I'll rivet it in this week and move on.

Here is a better photo of the factory placement with the light showing through.
https://mattglaeser.smugmug.com/Home/9999-Factory-Five-Roadster/i-NXsDSJh/A

[MB750]

Um, if you're expecting 6 sigma manufacturing from FFR you might want to lower your expectations. None of my aluminum panels lined up perfectly.

They do a great job, but it's not perfect.

[edwardb]

Slide it forward more so you can get rivets along the entire front edge. There's room for it to move at the notch around the suspension frame. Then trim any overhang.

I guess I'm the exception. I've found, for the most part, the aluminum panels fit quite well. Some massaging occasionally, and I can't easily explain this one, but it's an easy fix. Most of what I've had to do was to tweak a bend once in a while. Or trim around weld beads. My main advice to builders is mock up as many parts as you can, paying attention to proper overlaps, position of related parts, etc. Modifying the parts should be the last resort. I see builders trimming parts as the first option rather than the last.

[Ted G]

You can also shave down the front section of the F panel. If you think this one fits poorly, wait till you start with the cockpit area..... In the end, it will all work out just fine. You will find that you will have many adjustments from when you cleco everything in place and when you do final placement. Good luck and enjoy it!

[J R Jones]

mr g,
In my experience when an issue takes me by surprise it can be upsetting. If I see issues coming, it becomes a coping process.
Apparently FFR CAD and CAM is not Six Sigma and you are the final arbiter. Consider that this project will build character.
It has been said that successful race cars are the best sum of compromises.
When your project if finished, few if any will understand how hard and detailed it was.
jim

[MB750]

It has been said that successful race cars are the best sum of compromises.

That (to varying extents) applies to every single thing ever manufactured in all of history. I have a few years of manufacturing under my belt and there's a lot more "GET IT OUT THE DOOR" than there is, "Well, I know it's due to ship but if we tweak this panel just a little here it'll help these other panels line up better and we'll save .05 seconds of build time on each item..."

[JohnK]

I don't want to go down a rabbit hole here, but I think it's helpful to be mindful of how each one of these parts are made. What I mean is that certain parts are made in a pretty precise and repeatable way, while others have much more human involvement. Taking the frame as an example. As Edwardb noted, most of the frame is fixtured, and those frame members are placed pretty precisely. Rarely will you have an issue with those. Where humans get involved, i.e., placement of certain tubes and welding, is where you get variation that can affect fit. Taking sheetmetal as another example, the parts are all laser cut, but are then bent in a brake by a person. The overall shape of each sheetmetal piece will be very exact but the placement of the bends, perhaps a bit less so. The first rear cockpit wall I received had the bend so far off that it was unusable. FFR sent me a new one, which had the bend in the correct place but it was too shallow and still wouldn't fit correctly. I had to take it to a local sheetmetal shop with a large enough brake to bend it properly for me.

I mention all of this to say, whenever you come across fit issues that you're trying to troubleshoot and resolve, I find it helpful to ask myself "where did humans touch this". That's usually where the error is.

[egchewy79]

I went through 3 dashes before I got a correctly bent one. The first one didn't have the lip at the bottom. The second one they sent was bent for a RHD car. In FFR's defense, then sent a new one out each time w/o any questions.

[J R Jones]

I don't want to go down a rabbit hole here, but I think it's helpful to be mindful of how each one of these parts are made. What I mean is that certain parts are made in a pretty precise and repeatable way, while others have much more human involvement. Taking the frame as an example. As Edwardb noted, most of the frame is fixtured, and those frame members are placed pretty precisely. Rarely will you have an issue with those. Where humans get involved, i.e., placement of certain tubes and welding, is where you get variation that can affect fit. Taking sheetmetal as another example, the parts are all laser cut, but are then bent in a brake by a person. The overall shape of each sheetmetal piece will be very exact but the placement of the bends, perhaps a bit less so. The first rear cockpit wall I received had the bend so far off that it was unusable. FFR sent me a new one, which had the bend in the correct place but it was too shallow and still wouldn't fit correctly. I had to take it to a local sheetmetal shop with a large enough brake to bend it properly for me.

I mention all of this to say, whenever you come across fit issues that you're trying to troubleshoot and resolve, I find it helpful to ask myself "where did humans touch this". That's usually where the error is.

JK,
"where did humans touch this"
My career has been in recreational product development. Complete, functional assemblies are not forgiving to human (or other) error, incomplete kits result in subordinating inspection.
As this technology pertains, in the Marine industry, I provided power for and worked with, a high performance aluminum jet boat builder in Alberta CAN. In the mid-nineties Rob used a 20ft CNC laser table for cutting panels from flat sheet. They cut larger than table panels by advancing the sheet with laser etched reference marks.
The panels were formed with a CNC programed press brake at locations etched by the laser. The panels were so accurate that the weld-assembly fixture was a simple "V" bar for the keel. The panels fit in one sequence only for (hand) MIG welding. The result was so successful that my performance demonstration was running the Red Deer river at 114MPH (GPS) with a supercharged SBC. Trees and bushes were a green blur.
jim

[Sarcasticshrub]

I recently received my MKIV as well. Same issue on the driver's side F panel. As others have said, slide the panel forward and check that it has solid attachment locations for all rivets. Small tweaks as needed and many will be needed as you move along.

I ended up trimming a bit from the center section where it meets the suspension frame to move the panel forward enough to be solidly on the square tubing where you are having the gap.

[mrglaeser]

Thanks everyone after the first posts indicating that this stuff is expected I kept calm and moved on. A 1/4 inch off here and 1/8 of there and I got pretty good coverage.
https://photos.smugmug.com/Home/9999-Factory-Five-Roadster/i-jn6wrTd/0/2c809337/XL/20230308_192100-XL.jpg (https://mattglaeser.smugmug.com/Home/9999-Factory-Five-Roadster/i-jn6wrTd/A)

https://photos.smugmug.com/Home/9999-Factory-Five-Roadster/i-CkJ9KP5/0/65bb8284/XL/20230308_192109-XL.jpg (https://mattglaeser.smugmug.com/Home/9999-Factory-Five-Roadster/i-CkJ9KP5/A)

https://photos.smugmug.com/Home/9999-Factory-Five-Roadster/i-Dmx5kqz/0/c759b724/XL/20230312_113854-XL.jpg (https://mattglaeser.smugmug.com/Home/9999-Factory-Five-Roadster/i-Dmx5kqz/A)

https://photos.smugmug.com/Home/9999-Factory-Five-Roadster/i-MHNPN66/0/8b18c00e/XL/20230312_113910-XL.jpg (https://mattglaeser.smugmug.com/Home/9999-Factory-Five-Roadster/i-MHNPN66/A)