1.4 million EV 818-EV

[gwader]

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/12/15/california-lawmakers-push-for-1-4m-zero-emissions-vehicles-on-th/


Honestly I've been thinking about this since I live in the "vacuum" otherwise known as California. The coolest thing is the parking. My 818 in front of every mall, restaurant, business! Oh yeah.
The WRX donor would still be used of course, or not??????? Then just replace the power train. Battery pack location would be a big consideration. Most likely a custom battery.

But the cost?????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????? Maybe a salvage Nissan LEAF? GM Volt? yeah right!

Thoughts?

http://media.treehugger.com/assets/images/2011/10/tesla-eckh-01.jpg

[David Hodgkins]

When I first built my roadster I wrote to tesla asking about using their motors, and never received a reply.

If there was a way to build an electric 818 that involved off the shelf parts I'd be ALL over it. I think an electric 818 would be AWESOME.

By the time they are available I just may look into it seriously. I know it would be a market bonanza for FFR down the road if you could build an electric 818 without having to break new ground to do it...

:)

[gwader]

Anybody have a pic of the 818 chassis? Time for some Gimp!

[Draco-REX]

A previous thread that might interest you:

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?2058-Question-Any-interest-in-bolt-in-Pre-engineered-Electric-Drive-Lines-for-FFR-Kits

[gwader]

Yes!

[HiltonZ]

check out Wright Speeds digital drivesystems. They created the X1 electic car and it beats the tesla hands down (my opinion). They might design a system for the 818.
Or AC Propulsion, they do the powertrain for the Ebox, mini-E, tzero, and other cars.

[Etos]

The volts are lease only aren't they? Still very expensive donor car.

I still think a prius would make an excellent variant for an MPG version. They can be found anywhere and for pretty cheap now. There's also people who know how to tune the whole system to get way more MPG from the factory versions. 80mpg, instant torque anyone?

[BipDBo]

The volts are lease only aren't they? Still very expensive donor car.

I still think a prius would make an excellent variant for an MPG version. They can be found anywhere and for pretty cheap now. There's also people who know how to tune the whole system to get way more MPG from the factory versions. 80mpg, instant torque anyone?

Both the Volt and the Leaf are available for purchase. The Volt has a relatively small (16 kw*hr), yet more sophisticated, liquid cooled battery. The Leaf has a simple, larger (24 kw*hr), air cooled battery, and costs less than the Volt. When you buy the volt, you're buying a lot more than a battery and a motor squeezzed into an econo hatch. The Leaf would make an excellent donor, especially if one could find a wrecked one that hasn't suffered too much damage to the cells.

[Oppenheimer]

I still think a prius would make an excellent variant for an MPG version. They can be found anywhere and for pretty cheap now. There's also people who know how to tune the whole system to get way more MPG from the factory versions. 80mpg, instant torque anyone?

I think the MPG version FFR has planned, using TDi power, will approach, perhaps even achieve, that sort of mileage (hwy). Without the extra weight and complexity of batteries, etc.

I can see TDi 818, and I can see all electric 818, but hybrid 818 (dual drivetrain) seems like it would compromise too much on weight, a key attribute to the whole 818 concept. Now an electric drivetrain powered by an ICE generator, that might be interesting. Wondering how much that would weigh (for, say, comparable power to stock WRX)?

[Xusia]

check out Wright Speeds digital drivesystems. They created the X1 electic car and it beats the tesla hands down (my opinion). They might design a system for the 818.
Or AC Propulsion, they do the powertrain for the Ebox, mini-E, tzero, and other cars.

I checked them out and I like what I saw. I think they are on the "Wright" path by using onboard generation. Their generator looks super efficient and almost completely maintenance free.

It looks like their newer system could be fairly easily adapted for just about any vehicle. I think it would be awesome to have a 250hp motor powering each rear wheel. I'd even be OK if the total weight was a bit more than the Subaru running gear.

As an all electric vehicle, the X1, essentially an electric motor powered Ariel Atom, gets a claimed 170mpg. Adding the onboard generator would certainly bring that number down, but even if it's HALF, you can sign me up. As long as it's not too expensive...

[Xusia]

I just couldn't get this out of my craw, so I called Wrightspeed. At present, their business model is to sell to manufacturers (probably with integration services, etc.), not individuals. :( Although that could change, it seems like the best idea would be for FFR to contact them and inquire about an electric drivetrain option.

Also of potential concern to us is that they are still in the prototype phase. From my conversation, it sounds like the technology and concepts are mature enough, and that it's more about tooling and the like to bring costs down. Therefore shouldn't be much longer before the products are ready.

[GPZ10]

With the weight and cost of either an electric or hybrid drive train, I don't think it will give good enough performance to justify its use in an efficiency model of the 818. The TDI or Boxer diesel will give extremely good performance and much less cost.

Don't get me wrong, I get my electrical engineering degree in May, and I love EVs. Even thought of making my senior design project an electric Formula SAE car, just for the hell of it. I've been looking into building an electric Eagle Talon for a daily driver forever. But I think for this car, the best choice would be diesel. I could be wrong though.

[Evan78]

I don't think one is better than the other, they are dramatically different. The diesel is expected to get much better fuel economy than the gasoline engine, but aside from differences in power and mpg, it's not much different. Some kind of hybrid adds expense, weight and complexity to further increase fuel economy. Going to something all electric seems like a radical departure from everything else to me. In my mind, the big factors are zero tailpipe emissions and having to plug in instead of fill up. They each have pros and cons, but neither is right or wrong, better or worse to me.

I'd love to own a high performance electric, but the charge times (and/or range) seem like the big hurdle(s) to overcome.

[Xusia]

Those aren't the only options. For instance, what Wrightspeed offers isn't a hybrid. It's a fully electric drive-train. It just happens to have the option of on board power generation (so you don't have to "plug in"). Their whole point - the reason they built the X-1 - is to demonstrate you don't have to choose between performance and efficiency. You can have both. (they rate the X-1 at 170mpg, and it does 0-60 in 2.something seconds, and the 1.4 mile in 11.something seconds)

I'd also argue that an electric drive-train does not add complexity; it reduces it. It's different, and many of us (myself included) aren't very familiar with electric motors, accompanying software, etc., but that doesn't make them more complex, just less understood. For instance, the motor used by Wrightspeed has only 1 moving part. Their onboard generator also has only 1 moving part. The gearbox has only 2 gears, and the shifting mechanism is completely clutchless. These are all incredibly simple - especially when compared to their conventional counterparts.

I'd agree the diesel is probably the most economical option. It will provide decent enough performance, it's well established and understood technology, it's readily available, and cheap. All good reasons to base a high MPG car on it.

[Evan78]

I agree, an electric setup is probably going to be more simple. I said hybrid adds complexity. I should have stated that I was referring to brewing your own hybrid.

An electric setup with the option of adding on on-board generator sounds ideal.

[GPZ10]

Those aren't the only options. For instance, what Wrightspeed offers isn't a hybrid. It's a fully electric drive-train. It just happens to have the option of on board power generation (so you don't have to "plug in"). Their whole point - the reason they built the X-1 - is to demonstrate you don't have to choose between performance and efficiency. You can have both. (they rate the X-1 at 170mpg, and it does 0-60 in 2.something seconds, and the 1.4 mile in 11.something seconds)

I'd also argue that an electric drive-train does not add complexity; it reduces it. It's different, and many of us (myself included) aren't very familiar with electric motors, accompanying software, etc., but that doesn't make them more complex, just less understood. For instance, the motor used by Wrightspeed has only 1 moving part. Their onboard generator also has only 1 moving part. The gearbox has only 2 gears, and the shifting mechanism is completely clutchless. These are all incredibly simple - especially when compared to their conventional counterparts.

I'd agree the diesel is probably the most economical option. It will provide decent enough performance, it's well established and understood technology, it's readily available, and cheap. All good reasons to base a high MPG car on it.

This is true, the simplicity part. All electric motors have only 1 moving part - the rotor. Personally, I'm much more comfortable working on them than an ICE. Of course, I'm an electrician and finishing my last year of Electrical Engineering now. :) The simplicity is nice. I just wonder, as I was looking at building an Electric Talon/Eclipse before, that when a car is built for an ICE setup, placing battery packs in a car such as that will totally screw up any weight distribution. That's the only thing I'd make sure of when looking at building an EV. Well, not the only thing, but one of the first. :)

[kitcarj]

I love the idea of an EV but there are all kinds of interesting problems the guys running them have. Burnt up controllers (especially in high performance applications) and I heard you could even fuse your motor by using just a little power to keep your car from rolling backwards on a hill like you might with a clutch in an ICE car. I don't know how many of these problems have been solved since I was following the EV list.

[Flashburn]

evtv.me

[Xusia]

Weight distribution is an issue, no doubt. I look at component placement as an opportunity to achieve the weight distribution you want. One of the great things about battery packs is that they are made up of smaller cells that can [typically] very easily be moved around.

[Etos]

I think the MPG version FFR has planned, using TDi power, will approach, perhaps even achieve, that sort of mileage (hwy). Without the extra weight and complexity of batteries, etc.

I can see TDi 818, and I can see all electric 818, but hybrid 818 (dual drivetrain) seems like it would compromise too much on weight, a key attribute to the whole 818 concept. Now an electric drivetrain powered by an ICE generator, that might be interesting. Wondering how much that would weigh (for, say, comparable power to stock WRX)?

A diesel version will never get near 80mpg. People have to understand diesel is not the same as gas. You can't just shed weight and gain MPG. If the diesel motor was making 40mpg in a 3400 pound car then at most in a 1800 pound you're looking at 45-50. For the diesel to get substantially more MPG you have to do 1 of 2 things: get MUCH longer gear ratios or get a much smaller engine.

Regardless I doubt many would get a diesel and live with it for long. Sales numbers and life on the road after 1 year would prove FFR is wasting their time with diesel.

[GPZ10]

Weight distribution is an issue, no doubt. I look at component placement as an opportunity to achieve the weight distribution you want. One of the great things about battery packs is that they are made up of smaller cells that can [typically] very easily be moved around.
Yeah, but only to a point. You want them to be accessible so that when they run out their lifetime (and they will) they can easily be replaced.


A diesel version will never get near 80mpg. People have to understand diesel is not the same as gas. You can't just shed weight and gain MPG. If the diesel motor was making 40mpg in a 3400 pound car then at most in a 1800 pound you're looking at 45-50. For the diesel to get substantially more MPG you have to do 1 of 2 things: get MUCH longer gear ratios or get a much smaller engine.

Regardless I doubt many would get a diesel and live with it for long. Sales numbers and life on the road after 1 year would prove FFR is wasting their time with diesel.

I'm confused as to what you're saying. Are you saying diesel engines aren't reliable? Because that statement would REALLY confuse me:
"The Eco Speedster, with its surprisingly diminutive 1.3-liter ECOTECH CDTI, tops out at 155 mph and clocked an average fuel economy of 113 mpg over a 24-hour road test."http://www.treehugger.com/cars/the-opel-eco-speedster-says-diesels-can-rip-and-sip-at-the-same-time.html
I remember reading about these cars a bunch and wanting one horribly. Audi has won numerous races with its TDI, so, I guess I'm not seeing any disadvantage here.

[Psay]

A diesel version will never get near 80mpg. People have to understand diesel is not the same as gas. You can't just shed weight and gain MPG. If the diesel motor was making 40mpg in a 3400 pound car then at most in a 1800 pound you're looking at 45-50. For the diesel to get substantially more MPG you have to do 1 of 2 things: get MUCH longer gear ratios or get a much smaller engine.

Regardless I doubt many would get a diesel and live with it for long. Sales numbers and life on the road after 1 year would prove FFR is wasting their time with diesel.

I had a Golf GT TDI for 3 years and it was one of the best and most fun cars I have ever had.

It only had 140bhp, however, it developed 350Nm of torque and pulled like hell from 1500 to 4000 rpm. I could drive it as fast as i dare and still get 45mpg, if driven carefully 60mpg was easy. The best i ever got from it was 72mpg.

All that been said I would not have an 818 with a diesel engine. To me they just don't go together. Have you seen and heard a diesel Audi TT? It just doesn't seem right and that's how I see the 818.

[Etos]

I'm confused as to what you're saying. Are you saying diesel engines aren't reliable? Because that statement would REALLY confuse me:
"The Eco Speedster, with its surprisingly diminutive 1.3-liter ECOTECH CDTI, tops out at 155 mph and clocked an average fuel economy of 113 mpg over a 24-hour road test."http://www.treehugger.com/cars/the-opel-eco-speedster-says-diesels-can-rip-and-sip-at-the-same-time.html
I remember reading about these cars a bunch and wanting one horribly. Audi has won numerous races with its TDI, so, I guess I'm not seeing any disadvantage here.

I wouldn't say they are any more or less reliable then gas engines. More maintenance and more expensive parts? Sure.

I also don't believe any PRODUCTION(not 1 offs) diesel car is getting close to even 70mpg consistent. The most I seen was around 55-60 and that was hyper mileling the crap out of it. I seen closer to 45 real world driving. That is nothing special.

What makes diesel good is the extreme amount of torque it can make. But you don't need that kind of torque in an 1800pound car. The only way is to either raise the already tall gearing way higher to make better use of the torque or go with a smaller engine(which that 1 off you linked definitely did both in what is a 1400 pound super aerodynamic RACE CAR that probably cost upwards of $300,000 just to produce).

Also understand diesel is more expensive- by ALOT. In NJ reg is currently 3.05 and diesel is 3.75. That difference is never going away. So already diesels better MPG has to first outweigh it's cost. Then there is availability. Not many places have diesel. And the places that do- I guarantee you will be old(anywhere from a few weeks to even half a year) unless it is a truck stop. Then unless you are in NJ/that other state- YOU have to pump the diesel. Even if you use a glove- that glove is going right back in the car where it'll just smell up the inside.

And yet still to touch on actually pulling apart a diesel donor car(GL finding one on the cheap or just finding one) and transplanting that into a sports car. Everything is going to be smelly and dirty. Diesel is not a clean fuel and worse yet the smell sticks to whatever it touches for a long time. The exhaust will stink especially having the motor sit right behind your head.

Leave diesels to what they are good for- heavy duty trucks and tractor trailers.

[GPZ10]

I wouldn't say they are any more or less reliable then gas engines. More maintenance and more expensive parts? Sure.

I also don't believe any PRODUCTION(not 1 offs) diesel car is getting close to even 70mpg consistent. The most I seen was around 55-60 and that was hyper mileling the crap out of it. I seen closer to 45 real world driving. That is nothing special.

What makes diesel good is the extreme amount of torque it can make. But you don't need that kind of torque in an 1800pound car. The only way is to either raise the already tall gearing way higher to make better use of the torque or go with a smaller engine(which that 1 off you linked definitely did both in what is a 1400 pound super aerodynamic RACE CAR that probably cost upwards of $300,000 just to produce).

Also understand diesel is more expensive- by ALOT. In NJ reg is currently 3.05 and diesel is 3.75. That difference is never going away. So already diesels better MPG has to first outweigh it's cost. Then there is availability. Not many places have diesel. And the places that do- I guarantee you will be old(anywhere from a few weeks to even half a year) unless it is a truck stop. Then unless you are in NJ/that other state- YOU have to pump the diesel. Even if you use a glove- that glove is going right back in the car where it'll just smell up the inside.

And yet still to touch on actually pulling apart a diesel donor car(GL finding one on the cheap or just finding one) and transplanting that into a sports car. Everything is going to be smelly and dirty. Diesel is not a clean fuel and worse yet the smell sticks to whatever it touches for a long time. The exhaust will stink especially having the motor sit right behind your head.

Leave diesels to what they are good for- heavy duty trucks and tractor trailers.

Maybe that's they way it is in NJ, but here in the midwest (SD) diesel is generally about the same prices, sometimes much cheaper; it's also available everywhere. I've never had to perform more maintenance on a diesel vehicle as compared to a gasoline vehicle. Maybe you're a bit biased, I'm not sure, because if you get gas on your hands, that smell sticks with you as well. Diesel cars around here (especially TDIs) are getting pretty plentiful.

[Evan78]

Diesel is about 60 cents more expensive ($3.90 vs $3.30) than "regular" gasoline in the U.S. source: http://www.eia.gov/petroleum/gasdiesel/

That works out to a 18% premium.

2012 VW Passat (city/hwy)
22/32mpg gasoline
31/43mpg diesel
41% better city, 34% better hwy

Granted, this is just 1 data point, but I would call that a significant improvement.

I know plenty of people here in California (where we pump our own gas) that have owned diesel cars and trucks, and none of them have sworn off diesels, and few complain about the additional grime. In Europe, don't diesels sell better than gasoline engines? I know that is due to higher fuel costs, but my point is that the general population will tolerate a dirty fuel pump handle to get better gas mileage.

[Evan78]

I also don't believe any PRODUCTION(not 1 offs) diesel car is getting close to even 70mpg consistent. The most I seen was around 55-60 and that was hyper mileling the crap out of it. I seen closer to 45 real world driving. That is nothing special.
I don't know what car(s) you're referring to, and I don't know what mileage a typical production diesel car gets, but 45 sounds pretty exceptional to me. Here's a few examples of 2011/12 ratings:

Accord: 23/34
Camry: 25/35
Civic: 28/36
Corolla: 28/35
Fit: 27/33
Mazda 2: 29/35

[Etos]

I don't know what car(s) you're referring to, and I don't know what mileage a typical production diesel car gets, but 45 sounds pretty exceptional to me. Here's a few examples of 2011/12 ratings:

Accord: 23/34
Camry: 25/35
Civic: 28/36
Corolla: 28/35
Fit: 27/33
Mazda 2: 29/35

Factor in cost of diesel(using NJ gas/diesel pricing of 3.05/3.75, roughly 22%) and that 45mpg goes down to about 35mpg on a per dollar basis. So for it to be worth while you'd need at least 30%+ mpg to offset the cost of diesel and get more MPG. So yes, 45 mpg on a diesel is nothing special.

Yes I am biased against diesel in sports cars. They just don't belong for so many reasons. Very very few cars(not trucks) are diesel and even fewer ever make their way to sports cars. Some people can live with diesel but most can't, I am in that camp. And this is coming from a truck stop owner who's bread and butter is selling diesel to tractor trailers. Just my .02, if FFR does a high milage car they should do EVs/Hybrids. Diesel is just not ideal.

[Etos]

Diesel is about 60 cents more expensive ($3.90 vs $3.30) than "regular" gasoline in the U.S. source: http://www.eia.gov/petroleum/gasdiesel/

That works out to a 18% premium.

2012 VW Passat (city/hwy)
22/32mpg gasoline
31/43mpg diesel
41% better city, 34% better hwy

Granted, this is just 1 data point, but I would call that a significant improvement.

I know plenty of people here in California (where we pump our own gas) that have owned diesel cars and trucks, and none of them have sworn off diesels, and few complain about the additional grime. In Europe, don't diesels sell better than gasoline engines? I know that is due to higher fuel costs, but my point is that the general population will tolerate a dirty fuel pump handle to get better gas mileage.

Also include this please:

Base passat is $20,000
Base TDI Passat is $26,000

If you look at Ford F250's the cost is closer to $8,000 difference. So if you keep the car for 6 years, that's $1000 more per year minus resale. Then you can play more number games with how much more you end up paying in interest over those years etc. I am not an accountant or that good with math so I'll leave that at that.

You must also purchase DEF fluid. If you run low you literally are sent into limp home mode and restricted to something like 20mph? Something stupid like that. DEF isn't cheap either and mainly truck stops carry them though more stations are starting to. So that adds to the premium.

Europe has fewer restrictions on diesel, they still use sulfur there for lubrication, as well as no DEF required. So diesels are cheaper to produce there. I also believe diesel is cheaper then gas in europe though I'm not sure. Europe also has stupid amounts of tax on cars especially over 2.0l so people like to get the diesel as a cheaper alternative to turbo gas cars. It's like the poor mans fun ride.

[GPZ10]

Yes I am biased against diesel in sports cars. They just don't belong for so many reasons. Very very few cars(not trucks) are diesel and even fewer ever make their way to sports cars. Some people can live with diesel but most can't, I am in that camp. And this is coming from a truck stop owner who's bread and butter is selling diesel to tractor trailers. Just my .02, if FFR does a high milage car they should do EVs/Hybrids. Diesel is just not ideal.Saying that something "doesn't belong" in sports cars is kinda narrow minded, I think. Putting technology in vehicles that "doesn't belong" is how advancement happens. How do you think Audi is winning races with the TDI? You can't count them out.


You must also purchase DEF fluid. If you run low you literally are sent into limp home mode and restricted to something like 20mph? Something stupid like that. DEF isn't cheap either and mainly truck stops carry them though more stations are starting to. So that adds to the premium.

... over here in the midwest, I've never had to add DEF to a single tank of fuel on any of our trucks. I actually had to Google the term, because I'd never heard of it here.

In all reality, it doesn't seem like you want the high MPG variant. The reason the diesel would make more sense here is all the batteries to equal a decent range would be so heavy, it really wouldn't perform well at that point. Kind of cancels the whole idea. A diesel can stay lightweight and still be fun. If you want to say that EVs/hybrids are ideal compared to a diesel, compare the costs there. You have batteries, which aren't cheap at all if you want range, hybrids can involve a very complex system that can easily require just as much maintenance as any diesel. Not only that, they need to be replaced every so often because they can't hold a charge anymore. A hell of a lot sooner than a diesel engine would have to be rebuilt. You also have to rebuild electric motors every so often if they're put under heavy loads very often. If the price of electricity is higher in your area, then it takes even longer for the switch to pay off, depending even more on how much the car is driven. Diesels are a far more economical option at this point.

[Evan78]

Factor in cost of diesel(using NJ gas/diesel pricing of 3.05/3.75, roughly 22%) and that 45mpg goes down to about 35mpg on a per dollar basis. So for it to be worth while you'd need at least 30%+ mpg to offset the cost of diesel and get more MPG. So yes, 45 mpg on a diesel is nothing special.45mpg by itself is meaningless, that's why I posted one example of a car using gasoline and diesel, to eliminate some variables. I'm sure you wouldn't say a big rig getting 45mpg is nothing special. In this particular example, the Passat gets about 37% better fuel economy in diesel form than gasoline, which far exceeds the national 18% average difference in fuel price.


Also include this please:

Base passat is $20,000
Base TDI Passat is $26,000

If you look at Ford F250's the cost is closer to $8,000 difference. So if you keep the car for 6 years, that's $1000 more per year minus resale. Then you can play more number games with how much more you end up paying in interest over those years etc. I am not an accountant or that good with math so I'll leave that at that.I don't see this as relevant to our discussion. Are we discussing the differences in potential powerplants for the 818, or the total cost of ownership of a production vehicle? If you can contribute information about the cost of donor engines, that would be interesting.


Europe has fewer restrictions on diesel, they still use sulfur there for lubrication, as well as no DEF required. So diesels are cheaper to produce there. I also believe diesel is cheaper then gas in europe though I'm not sure. Europe also has stupid amounts of tax on cars especially over 2.0l so people like to get the diesel as a cheaper alternative to turbo gas cars. It's like the poor mans fun ride.The point is, they are available there, and people choose them in large numbers. They don't say "Gross, the gas pump is dirty, I'm selling this car." If the good outweighs the bad, they keep it.

According to Energy.eu (http://www.energy.eu/), the EU average for gasoline is €1.459 and diesel is €1.397, about a 4% price advantage for diesel.

[Evan78]

The diesels in sports cars discussion reminds me of a Top Gear episode where they were supposed to come up with a commercial for a diesel Scirocco. They felt VW ruining a good chassis with a diesel, while the marketing firm pointed out that they made a cool, fun to drive diesel car.

[Xusia]

But you don't need that kind of torque in an 1800pound car.

I disagree. Torque--not horsepower--is the difference between just being able to stomp the pedal, and having to downshift.


BThen unless you are in NJ/that other state...

That would be Oregon. And because I've encounterted a lot of people recently who apparently don't know the correct pronunciation, I'm providing it here in a vain attempt to spread knowledge. It's pronounced like ORY-GUN, not ory-GONE.

[Etos]

Saying that something "doesn't belong" in sports cars is kinda narrow minded, I think. Putting technology in vehicles that "doesn't belong" is how advancement happens. How do you think Audi is winning races with the TDI? You can't count them out.

Everyone has their opinion on what they think does and doesn't belong on cars. People generally look down at ricers who have wings on their FWD cars. A nice exotic looking sports car to me doesn't go along with a dirty smelly fuel like diesel. Also what major race has audi won with TDI? I don't follow racing much but I never heard of TDI competing in the same class as other gas engine cars. That's like saying you won 2nd place in a 2 man race. It's also racing- when you dump millions into a racing program you'll figure out how to make pineapple juice hit 150mph.



... over here in the midwest, I've never had to add DEF to a single tank of fuel on any of our trucks. I actually had to Google the term, because I'd never heard of it here.


I was kinda going off on a tangent on modern day diesels of the USDM and EDM. It's something for 2011+ required by the USDOT.


In all reality, it doesn't seem like you want the high MPG variant. The reason the diesel would make more sense here is all the batteries to equal a decent range would be so heavy, it really wouldn't perform well at that point. Kind of cancels the whole idea. A diesel can stay lightweight and still be fun. If you want to say that EVs/hybrids are ideal compared to a diesel, compare the costs there. You have batteries, which aren't cheap at all if you want range, hybrids can involve a very complex system that can easily require just as much maintenance as any diesel. Not only that, they need to be replaced every so often because they can't hold a charge anymore. A hell of a lot sooner than a diesel engine would have to be rebuilt. You also have to rebuild electric motors every so often if they're put under heavy loads very often. If the price of electricity is higher in your area, then it takes even longer for the switch to pay off, depending even more on how much the car is driven. Diesels are a far more economical option at this point.

If I had the money to throw at multiple 818s I wouldn't mind a MPG version and leave the performance one for more track purpose. The batteries are not that heavy, the entire cell pack of 28 modules weighs in less then 100 pounds. That is not going to make any difference. I also bet the tiny ICE/transaxle/electric motor weigh less then the entire subaru driveline. So instead of it being 1800 pounds the car is 1900 or less.

The batteries also last alot longer then that myth that suddenly they go bad after a while. Look at cabs in the city, they definitely use the batteries the most with slow speed stop/go traffic and they have cabs running strong with over 300,000 miles on them still. That's more then enough proof the batteries are much better then people make them out to be.

How much is a high pressure fuel pump for a TDI? A few thousand you say no really? Diesels are more expensive to maintain then gas, probably right there with a hybrid system. The problem is most people don't understand the hybrid system so they just say it's all too complicated and expensive. That's the same attitude the old school car guys had when they started replacing the mechanical fuel pumps with electronics. They thought the gas tank would explode since live wiring is being introduced to the gas tank.

I don't see how taking the electric system from a 3000 pound prius and putting it into a 1800 pound sports car is adding load? That's relieving 1/3 of the load on the entire system. It's also not a system to go to the track with- just as I would never recommend just transplanting a TDI in stock form and go do 30 min track sessions. That's just whole heartedly foolish. It's a MPG variant, not a track rat.

[Psay]

The Audi TDI won Le Mans as well as others.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audi_R10_TDI

[Etos]

45mpg by itself is meaningless, that's why I posted one example of a car using gasoline and diesel, to eliminate some variables. I'm sure you wouldn't say a big rig getting 45mpg is nothing special. In this particular example, the Passat gets about 37% better fuel economy in diesel form than gasoline, which far exceeds the national 18% average difference in fuel price.

Granted it's a valid way to determine what 2 heavy cars milage are with gas vs diesel. But this is an engine that will get transplanted into a light weight car, a car that literally weighs half. BTW "big rigs"(we call them tractor trailers) get 4-7mpg. I'll use a dump truck as an example. They typically weigh about 25,000 pounds empty. Fully loaded they can weigh 80,000 pounds. Typical MPG at full load is about 4 mpg +/-1 for uphills/downhills/winds. Completely empty the same dump truck is getting 5-6 mpg. The truck literally sheds off over double it's weigh and gained a 20% increase in MPG. That is exactly what is going to happen with a TDI, it's going to see pretty much the same MPG as the donor car you took it from. Gas and electric are different, they see big improvements from weight shavings.


I don't see this as relevant to our discussion. Are we discussing the differences in potential powerplants for the 818, or the total cost of ownership of a production vehicle? If you can contribute information about the cost of donor engines, that would be interesting.

Just going off on a tangent with that.


The point is, they are available there, and people choose them in large numbers. They don't say "Gross, the gas pump is dirty, I'm selling this car." If the good outweighs the bad, they keep it.

According to Energy.eu (http://www.energy.eu/), the EU average for gasoline is €1.459 and diesel is €1.397, about a 4% price advantage for diesel.

LOL yeah they actually do go "gross" and "eww" when they go to pump the diesel themselves for the first time. Then they walk happily into their car knowing they never need to do it again(being in NJ and all). Most don't go and sell the car off just because of that but it's definitely a con, and some people do end up selling their diesels cause they can't take the smell anymore. Even veteran tractor trailer drivers won't touch any of the diesel nozzles without serious gloves made for handling them.

The ratio of diesel powered cars to gas is retarded. It's not even 1% of 1% of 1%. We get hundreds of cars coming into our ranky danky 2 gas dispenser station everyday. Diesel cars? Once every couple days a regular will show up, sometimes 2 regulars on the same day. This isn't fantasy, this is real life facts that I see everyday and been seeing since I could walk. It's a pipe dream to think more and more people are getting diesel compared to gas.

[GPZ10]

Also what major race has audi won with TDI? I don't follow racing much but I never heard of TDI competing in the same class as other gas engine cars. That's like saying you won 2nd place in a 2 man race. It's also racing- when you dump millions into a racing program you'll figure out how to make pineapple juice hit 150mph.
Le Mans. You know, that tiny little one no one watches. :)


If I had the money to throw at multiple 818s I wouldn't mind a MPG version and leave the performance one for more track purpose. The batteries are not that heavy, the entire cell pack of 28 modules weighs in less then 100 pounds. That is not going to make any difference. I also bet the tiny ICE/transaxle/electric motor weigh less then the entire subaru driveline. So instead of it being 1800 pounds the car is 1900 or less. ...What batteries are you talking about that weigh less than 100 lbs? and then how much energy do they hold? As an electrician and graduating EE student who's helped to build an EV before, you won't be getting very far with 100 lbs. of batteries. That's almost no capacity whatsoever for an EV.


The batteries also last alot longer then that myth that suddenly they go bad after a while. Look at cabs in the city, they definitely use the batteries the most with slow speed stop/go traffic and they have cabs running strong with over 300,000 miles on them still. That's more then enough proof the batteries are much better then people make them out to be.Those are lead acid batteries. Do you know how many of those it would take to power a sports car? And how far it would get? Answer: a lot of batteries and not very far.


How much is a high pressure fuel pump for a TDI? A few thousand you say no really? Diesels are more expensive to maintain then gas, probably right there with a hybrid system. The problem is most people don't understand the hybrid system so they just say it's all too complicated and expensive. That's the same attitude the old school car guys had when they started replacing the mechanical fuel pumps with electronics. They thought the gas tank would explode since live wiring is being introduced to the gas tank.I'm seeing more in the price range of less than $500 for a TDI fuel pump: http://www.thedieselstore.com/template/partdisplay.php?PartCat=FUEL+INJECTION&VehNum=1117192111719311171941117195111719611171971 11719811171991117200111720111172021117203111720411 17205111720611172071117208111720911172101117211111 72121117213111721411172151117216111721711172181117 21911172201117221111722211172231117224111722511172 26111724711172481117249111725011172511117252111725 31117254111725511172561117257111725811172591117260 111726111172621117263

That price to me seems to be about right.


I don't see how taking the electric system from a 3000 pound prius and putting it into a 1800 pound sports car is adding load? That's relieving 1/3 of the load on the entire system. It's also not a system to go to the track with- just as I would never recommend just transplanting a TDI in stock form and go do 30 min track sessions. That's just whole heartedly foolish. It's a MPG variant, not a track rat.
This car is supposed to be light weight. Adding a battery pack (that doesn't have a large amount of range at all) and an ICE is adding unnecessary weight to the car that isn't needed. A turbo diesel would be able to accomplish the task of high mileage and decent performance much easier than any EV or hybrid. You want comparable performance? You'll be spending a lot more money with batteries. And that's coming from an EE student that's spent many nights the last few years trolling craigslist for a 240sx or Eclipse or Talon to build an EV out of. I love the idea, but you have to go into the project knowing that if you want the same performance, you have to spend a lot more money.

[RM1SepEx]

the bottom line is that you need to put on a lot of miles to offset the addl cost of a hybrid or diesel

with a prius the numbers at 3.50 a gallon is about 250,000 miles, and if you need batteries or have a problem with anything you are toast!

I have a friend who just traded in a 8 year old prius, almost 90,000 miles, 4 error coades, trans, battery etc wasn't worth fixing...

My wife's 99 Miata is a sweet car, gets 28 MPG combined driving, looks great totally reliable at 86,000 miles and should run, trouble free for another 150,000 miles... they lost money on the Prius for sure.

A TDI gives you the same situation, if it runs trouble free for 250,000 you can actually save $.

Can't do it with a DSM transmission, maintenance $ are too high...

want to go electric, same issue, check out Thunderstruck Motors

http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/

[Oppenheimer]

A diesel version will never get near 80mpg. People have to understand diesel is not the same as gas. You can't just shed weight and gain MPG. If the diesel motor was making 40mpg in a 3400 pound car then at most in a 1800 pound you're looking at 45-50. For the diesel to get substantially more MPG you have to do 1 of 2 things: get MUCH longer gear ratios or get a much smaller engine.

I based my 'diesel 818 would approach or achieve 80 mpg' comment on what Dave said. They plan to use technology developed by the West Philly High School Green Grand Prix winning diesel powered FFR GTM. That car averaged over 100 mpg in the race. Sure, they used hyper-mileing driving techniques, but the 818 mpg variant will be lighter, probably better aero.

I understand your comment that getting better diesel mileage means smaller engine or taller gearing. I do not know what magic fairy dust they sprinkle on their TDi to achieve these results, or how they will translate to a street going 818, but Dave has stated the TDi powered 818 should be able to acheive 75 mpg or more.