Other Kits - EXPENSIVE!

[GPZ10]

Is it just me, or are other kits from companies (no matter what kind of car you're building) outrageously expensive? I want to build an 818 when they become available, but I've also looked at others, like this:
http://www.twintechcars.com/
and this body kit for the Campagna T-Rex:
http://www.aero3s.com/photos.html

Yes, I know they're on completely different spectrum of vehicles... I have a strange taste for cars. :-P But FFR seems to give you so much more in a kit for the price. Just an observation I guess, wondering if anyone else had noticed as well.

[Movieman]

Is it just me, or are other kits from companies (no matter what kind of car you're building) outrageously expensive? I want to build an 818 when they become available, but I've also looked at others, like this:
http://www.twintechcars.com/
and this body kit for the Campagna T-Rex:
http://www.aero3s.com/photos.html

Yes, I know they're on completely different spectrum of vehicles... I have a strange taste for cars. :-P But FFR seems to give you so much more in a kit for the price. Just an observation I guess, wondering if anyone else had noticed as well.

I think what your seeing is the difference in both thinking and maturity of the companies involved.
FFR has had over 16 years to refine their operation and my personal opinion is that they "aren't looking to get rich" on each sale but make a fair profit for time and investment.
I visited FFR a while back and was totally impressed with both the people and the operation.
They've got it down to a science, dedicated workstations, jigs so that all parts are exact and then the people.
Passionate, friendly and you could see in them the love of what they do.
When I was there it was a quiet Saturday morning and Jason spent the better part of 3 hours showing me every aspect of the operation to the point that I felt
guilty of taking up too much of his time.
Add it all up and I think you see the answers to your questions.

[AJ Roadster NJ]

Not to put too fine a point on it, but I think there are almost ten thousand of us now that have not only noticed, but made the purchase. Remember the bad old days when a kit-car company was really successful if they sold 80 to 100 kits over the life of the company? FFR sells almost that number every month. FFR is successful because they care about their customers and they give good value for money. The reason they give good value for money is incredibly strong engineering and efficient manufacturing with a minimum of waste. Solidworks is, for them, what Mark Donahue would've called their 'unfair advantage' ('unfair' in a good, complimentary kind of way).

Yes I'm building one, hoping to be on the road in the spring. I have nothing but good things to say about the experience. I've said over and over that it is, by far and without question, the coolest thing I've ever done. A whole lot of guys in my neighborhood stop by when they see the bright lights on in the garage in the evening, just to have a beer and watch me work and enjoy the experience.

AJ

[GPZ10]

No, you're right, I agree completely. I was never really confused as to why FFR's kits are priced better, it was really just an observation. That, and maybe a bit of wishful thinking that all kit car companies would approach the business the way FFR does. The industry would have a much better reputation I think. And to clarify, I'm referring to the kit car industry's reputation. FFR has a great reputation, to the point that I've really never heard anything bad about them myself, actually.

.... Which makes you wonder... What do they do with the bodies of their disgruntled customers??? ;-P haha

[skullandbones]

They swim with the fish!! And also what do they do with the kit bodies. Ha! WEK.

[Movieman]

The last guy who bad mouthed a FFR kit: :D
http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/124/lucaod.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/708/lucaod.jpg/)

[AJ Roadster NJ]

Movieman, funny, the guy doesn't look like a chicken farmer...

[Second time this week I've needed a rimshot. I crack myself up sometimes.]

[OCCPete]

In the roadster arena, there are several competitive options to FFR, which I'll refrain from mentioning on FFR's forum ;) . Other kit cars are a really niche market, so it's a really tough industry to make any money in. I think FFR will do well on their 818 due to the following they've built with their other kits. I don't think another company without that following could pull it off at the same price, even with a quality product.

Superformance has done the same thing in the "turn-key minus" area as FFR has done with kits. They built a reputation on their roadster and now are selling several other cars that other companies went out of business trying to sell (Corvette Gran Sport for example).

Pete

[Ray]

Jodi wants to build one of these next; 356 Speedster, (http://www.thunderranch.com/) after we get the new garage/shop built. We can buy the "Deluxe Kit" for about $14,500 which looks like it compares pretty well with the Roadster kit I bought a few years back (almost looks like a "Complete Kit" from FFR.) But, I'll save a lot on shipping.....they are only 7.5 miles from our home.

Ray

[GPZ10]

Jodi wants to build one of these next; 356 Speedster, (http://www.thunderranch.com/) after we get the new garage/shop built. We can buy the "Deluxe Kit" for about $14,500 which looks like it compares pretty well with the Roadster kit I bought a few years back (almost looks like a "Complete Kit" from FFR.) But, I'll save a lot on shipping.....they are only 7.5 miles from our home.

Ray

I didn't look at the prices for that kit, but I did see the Riot name on that site, and it reminded me of that car... Wanted on back in high school pretty bad, but the build quality doesn't seem too good judging by the comments about the build on their site made by them. The tooling was bought up by another company, and I read their stuff too... Just not impressed. I really like their 904 kit, but the only dollar amount I saw was $90k.....
WAY too much for what you're getting, I think.

[Ray]

I didn't look at the prices for that kit, but I did see the Riot name on that site, and it reminded me of that car... Wanted on back in high school pretty bad, but the build quality doesn't seem too good judging by the comments about the build on their site made by them. The tooling was bought up by another company, and I read their stuff too... Just not impressed. I really like their 904 kit, but the only dollar amount I saw was $90k.....
WAY too much for what you're getting, I think.

I think that you were looking at the "turn key" price. The 356 kit has a base price of $9995, Deluxe kit is $14,500 and the turn key starts at $37,500.

We paid $14,500 for our FFR Roadster, with options and delivery back in 2002 so the deluxe kit price doesn't seem to be too far out of line.

Ray

[GPZ10]

I think that you were looking at the "turn key" price. The 356 kit has a base price of $9995, Deluxe kit is $14,500 and the turn key starts at $37,500.

We paid $14,500 for our FFR Roadster, with options and delivery back in 2002 so the deluxe kit price doesn't seem to be too far out of line.

Ray

Got ya. That Phantom Speedster kit does look kinda cool, even though I'm a coupe guy. You should convince the wife to do that... :)

[Rusty_S85]

FFR does offer more for your money. I remember when I was looking at a Willy coupe from this one company they didnt even provide seat frames or any of the interior it was just the body and the frame for $12,000. When I found FFR I loved the fact that you get almost the complete car for slightly more money. Only issue I have had with the company is that when I checked while back I couldnt get credited full value on items that I didnt want for my build. For instance I didnt want the Ron Francis wiring harness since it wouldnt work without serious modifications with my plans. Well I know Ron Francis and his wiring harnesses are not cheap they run in excess of $500 when I was last at his site and I am sure they are more now. Well I couldnt get the full value of said harness in credit which is like a slap in the face in my opinion. I mean the way I see it is if I pay $15,000 for a kit but ask them to keep the $400 wiring harness and credit me on it since I wont use it but yet I dont get credited the full $400 I am getting ripped off then. I am still paying partially for said wiring harness and not getting it. Its like how the new coupe kits dont come with the wiper kits when they at one time did but the price is still the same.

I dont mean to bad mouth FFR, I still keep rolling the idea of building one of the coupe kits and buying from this company. I just hope through the issues I point out maybe something better could come of it. I dont mind spending almost $18,000 for the coupe with the IRS upgrade but it would be nice if I could omit things I wouldnt use and get credited or discounted on the price of said item. Its the only thing at the moment aside from having 3 projects on going and no space that is keeping me from fully comitting to a kit.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Rusty,
RE: credit for deleted items. FFR won't credit more than they paid for a deleted item. Using your RF harness example---list price for one harness on the Francis site may be $500. FFR buys hundreds per year and undoubtedly has negotiated a significantly reduced cost. Whatever that price is is the most you would get in credit. Realistically they also need to charge for the labor of someone pulling deleted items from the standard packages and returning it to inventory.

Jeff

[Rusty_S85]

Im sure the harness is in its own package and is put into a box at time of order there fore they are not pulling out of the package but simply omitting an item. That is like these reproduction companies that keep telling me it would cost them too much money to make custom one off trim pieces even though all they are doing is pulling a set of trim pieces off before the final stamping of said pieces.

Sure they could get bulk discounts but I just dont see Ron Francis doing bulk discounts on his items. All I expect is to get credited the whole amount of said item that the customer is paying for. What you didnt mention is the point about the wiper kit. I remember the wiper kit being included in the kit for the coupe but its not anymore and the cost of the kits havent been reduced so you are technically still paying for said wiper kit unless they were doing the un thinkable and giving you the wiper kit for free.

The whole point is not how much they paid for said item but how much they are charging for said item. I get parts at discount but I charge the list price to customers and make money on the part which is what all businesses do. I am sure if FFR is getting the harnesses for instance in bulk discount I am sure they are charging you more than what they paid for the harnesses to make some money off the part that is a way of business and in the end if your not getting credited the full cost of the item that you are paying for it you are still paying partially for a part that your not getting.

Lets say for instance I buy 500 wiper blades at discount $3.00 per blade instead of $8.00. That is $1,500 for those wiper blades but I sell to the customer the blades for $5.00 for the cost of the wiper blade, I only paid $3.00 for one wiper blade but I charge the person $5.00 so I make alittle money off the part and if they are not crazy about the price they can go buy the same item at $8.00 they are still getting the product cheaper than buying themself but they are paying more than what I paid for the item. I just cant see FFR selling their parts at the same exact price they pay for them, I have yet to come across a business that didnt mark up the parts they are selling higher than what they paid.



Dont get me wrong I understand FFR needs to make money to stay in business, I just dont like paying more when I am not getting all that is paid for. I just know from pricing pieces that for what is being obtained with the kit is priced right for all parts but the amount discounted/credited for omitting some pieces didnt seem in proportion like they should be like your not getting credited the full amount that you are being charged for said price.

[AJ Roadster NJ]

Rusty, your best option is to buy the kit intact and if you don't want the harness, sell it. You're making too big a deal out of a really minor detail IMHO. If I had told Dodge that I wanted my new truck built without the fog lamps even though fog lamps are standard in my model, they would never have given me fair value for the fog lamps, and probably would've charged me extra for the pain I put them through. If I really didn't want the fog lamps for some reason, I would have removed them when I took delivery, and sold them on eBay.

Nobody in any business that churns out products wants to deal with a unique or quirky request, and then actually shell out money to the customer while meeting the request. I think their margins are simply too thin to make this possible.

Good luck, I hope the buy-it-with-the-kit-and-sell-it-later idea helps.

AJ

[Rusty_S85]

Thats the idea I was going to go with was the sell the stuff off at swap meets and such could get way more money for the stuff than getting credited from FFR.

Not making a big deal out of it, if I wanted to I would be bugging FFR over it and I havent, I just havent bought their product yet for a few reasons and this was one of them but in the long run I could easily get a few hundred for the Ron Francis wiring harness from the local swap meet. Could get another few hundred for the autometer gauges as well and that right there would be enough to cover the custom made gauges I would want to run.

I didnt intent for this to come off as making a big deal out of it, was just pointing out that customers that omit products are still paying partially for the part. No business especially one just barely scraping by would charge the same price they paid for a part they would charge the list price.

[Movieman]

Rusty:
You know what it comes down to me? The total price.
I sit back and look at building a decent coupe or roadster for say $40-50G's and then compare what you'd have to what you can buy for that same money elsewhere.
Then there's what I call the "giggle" factor.
That dumb smile that would cross your face every morning as you saw the car in the garage.
What price can one put on just that part of the equation?
When I was at FFR during the tour Jason and I walked into a room and there was the red Coyote powered Mk4.
Now understand that I'm pushing 60 and just stood there like a pimple faced 13 year old trying not to drool on the car.
Perfect and I mean PERFECT.
THEN out to the showroom and the same feeling looking at David Smith's coupe.
There is really no price you can put on those feelings.
All my best to you in your dream.

[Rusty_S85]

Rusty:
You know what it comes down to me? The total price.
I sit back and look at building a decent coupe or roadster for say $40-50G's and then compare what you'd have to what you can buy for that same money elsewhere.
Then there's what I call the "giggle" factor.
That dumb smile that would cross your face every morning as you saw the car in the garage.
What price can one put on just that part of the equation?
When I was at FFR during the tour Jason and I walked into a room and there was the red Coyote powered Mk4.
Now understand that I'm pushing 60 and just stood there like a pimple faced 13 year old trying not to drool on the car.
Perfect and I mean PERFECT.
THEN out to the showroom and the same feeling looking at David Smith's coupe.
There is really no price you can put on those feelings.
All my best to you in your dream.

I agree, the total price is whats I look at, I still have to figure up the total cost cause I omitted alot of ideas I had cause I didnt need them. For instance I didnt need a $6,000 EFI intake system that looks like old webber`s. I didnt need $200 worth of cross drilled and slotted brake rotors considering I never planned on using organic pads. The one important thing that has me on the fence the most is the IRS, $2,000 is alot of money just for welding in different mounts and Id still have to supply the carrier and the cv axles. So in the end I have to figure out what I need over what Id want and then go from there.

I do agree, I thought of using the coupe kit for advertisement for business, was going to hand paint vintage sponsorship logos on the coupe and paint my business logo on the kit as well then clear coat it all. Be good form of advertisement but in my case its hard to do when you have 3 on going projects and no room to get another one going. My only hope is that when I get one of the projects out the coupe is still being offered then I will get off the fence and order one.

My build idea was priced at around $45,000 with the EFI intake and a 400hp 351w. I am shooting at getting the price down to around $30,000. Since I can do 99% of the work myself I will save alot of money over someone that has to outsource the work.

[Movieman]

I agree, the total price is whats I look at, I still have to figure up the total cost cause I omitted alot of ideas I had cause I didnt need them. For instance I didnt need a $6,000 EFI intake system that looks like old webber`s. I didnt need $200 worth of cross drilled and slotted brake rotors considering I never planned on using organic pads. The one important thing that has me on the fence the most is the IRS, $2,000 is alot of money just for welding in different mounts and Id still have to supply the carrier and the cv axles. So in the end I have to figure out what I need over what Id want and then go from there.

I do agree, I thought of using the coupe kit for advertisement for business, was going to hand paint vintage sponsorship logos on the coupe and paint my business logo on the kit as well then clear coat it all. Be good form of advertisement but in my case its hard to do when you have 3 on going projects and no room to get another one going. My only hope is that when I get one of the projects out the coupe is still being offered then I will get off the fence and order one.

My build idea was priced at around $45,000 with the EFI intake and a 400hp 351w. I am shooting at getting the price down to around $30,000. Since I can do 99% of the work myself I will save alot of money over someone that has to outsource the work.

I think the one thing you don't have to worry about is the coupe still being available in a year or three.
My gut tells me FFR will offer that for a very long time.

[Rusty_S85]

I think the one thing you don't have to worry about is the coupe still being available in a year or three.
My gut tells me FFR will offer that for a very long time.

Thats what my gut tells me as well, I got the very old brochure from when the coupe came out and it talked about it being a limited production run but if it made it this far I figure in 10 years it should still be around, especially considering the money put into making a Mk.II of the coupe. Just need to hurry up and get one of my projects out of the way so I can have the room for another one.

But one just cant help but wonder if what your wanting will still be around when you get the chance to get one.