Getting ready to order

[azbruin]

I expect to be ready to place my order in the next few weeks but still have a few questions. My original idea was base with a full donor but I have decided not to risk a used engine and transmission. I met with Gordon Levy (thanks for taking the time to see me) and will likely go with one of his engines. I've seen a lot of traffic supporting the base package and then individually sourcing the rest of the parts. My questions are all about availability and relative cost of this option. My car will be a fairweather cruiser in Arizona and will never see a track. I'm retiring in 18 days so I will have lots more time than money....

[sketcham41]

AZbruin:
I am in the same boat as you....I have a few questions for you and if you considered the issues I am up against. I have not decided on a motor yet but am leaning toward a 302 fuel injected Ford. Given this direction, how do I decide what I do for rear end ordering of components since that has not been decided yet or purchased?
The other option is force the issue and go ahead and order the components for which you wish to build and then buy what is needed to fill the prescription.
Do you have any input on this?

[AC Bill]

My car will be a fairweather cruiser in Arizona and will never see a track. I'm retiring in 18 days so I will have lots more time than money....

More time than money..hmm? If that is the case, perhaps the donor route isn't such a bad one.

You can overhaul a used engine, for less than a new one. You can also use your time cleaning up, and painting donor items, rather than use your money to buy new. Once upon a time, that was the whole concept of FFR. There are hundreds of donor built Roadsters out there, that the owners are enjoying.

No doubt many will chime in that you will have to replace everything with new, as the donor parts are to old, to worn out etc, etc.. If you chose the donor carefully, this doesn't need to be the case. Sure, some donor parts you may prefer to replace, but with some of those, they can also be used to alleviate core charges.

For a car that may only see a few thousand miles a year, and only used for the street, you need to ask yourself, "How much retirement money do I want to invest in this project?"

Happy Retirement!:)

[KC Wildcat]

Just my personal opinion, I think you should have a well defined plan before you place your order. There is no better way to set and manage your expectations, make sure you end up with the car of your dreams, one where it all flows and works together. It is obviously a great tool for managing cost issues. It also helps you stay on track, miminize rework, and extra expenses due to changing directions in mid build. There are a number of threads with good build plans on here and the other place.

[Mesa Mike]

I built my MKI going the donor route. The advantage is all the extra fasteners (nuts & bolts) and speed-o cable, and on and on you get with the donor. I used the donor pallet so I didn't have the empty hulk to get ride of. I didn't want a reck sitting in my driveway for my neighbors to look at.

Now donor or no donor. Cost wise the donor is the best bang for your buck build. Talk to Gordon and see what he will charge you for a new engine vs. rebuilding the donor engine. I had Gordon build me a new engine but I still ended up sending him my donor flywheel, harmonic balencer and some various other parts. Engine was good but I replaced it a few years later with one of my own build. How good was the donor pallet??? I have not touched my donor transmission, I changed the gears in the rear end from 327 to 355 but most of the donor parts were cleaned, painted and bolted on and still going strong after 23,000 miles of hard driving both street and track. Now I will say the complete kit is much easier for building. You get all of the parts you need and they are all new and shiney. You will find that your build will continue to evolve over the years. When you have some extra $$$ you will find it easy to spend on door panels or heated seats, etc. To summerize: money no problem=complete kit; tight budget=donor. Oh by the way, good luck from a retired FF builder/owner in Mesa.

[azbruin]

Mike,

I've got a picture in my head of a donor pallet but have no idea how one acquires it. I, too, don't want (and can't have where I live) a wreck sitting in the driveway. Desides the HOA, the wife would kill me. I would have to disassemble in the garage. The pallet idea intrigues me.

[azbruin]

Sketcham:
I was also leaning toward a 302 fuel injected until I met with Gordon. I thought the f.i. would require less maintenance over time. Gordon steered me to a bigger, carbuerated engine (351). He thinks there is less chance of power remorse and coming back later for something bigger. I've seen quite a few posts on rear ends but really don't know enough yet. I suspect that I won't be able to tell the difference much with my driving habits. The later post about having a well defined plan is certainly good advice - I don't want to get half way through the build and find out I've spent $50K with lots more to go. On the other hand, this whole project will be many steps into unchartered territory and if I have to do a project plan down to the last nut, I might as well stay at work. I think I'll be happy starting out with the major decisions made and a solid idea of what the finished product will be.

[Brian Z]

Fuel injection is the way to go. It is more expensive to upgrade, but it is alot more reliable and more fun to be able to start your car and drive it.

[Gale K]

I went donor, and would do it again in a heartbeat. I tore it down in my 3 car garage, neighbors never saw it until I put the carcass on a trailer to take to the metal recyclers.

"More time than money." My donor had 100K on the clock. Most stuff needed a slight clean and paint job. Having a boatload of extra stuff (fasteners, dodads, etc) was priceless. The car I got had a recent brake job (all new rotors and pads), new radiator, etc. I sold a bunch of unneeded stuff (seats, body parts, etc), and I have a net total of about $500 into all of the parts in the Roadster after kit purchase (not including $500 for the vintage repro gauges that I purchased later).

If you have even a little room in your garage to store parts, etc, I would really mull over the donor concept. You can even go with donor and get the bigger engine from Gordon. It really worked out well for me.

Cost was the ultimate driving factor for me. No way you could source all of the new/used parts you would need for the build individually for $500.

[skullandbones]

There are lot's of ways to go but if I were you I wouldn't anx too much as most of the paths are well worn with successes and a few failures. I started with a pure donor build but later changed to a donor/component combo plan. I found a great engine deal on some go fast parts in an engine buy of $300 (about $1500 that I can basically bolt on)..

I agree that a detailed build plan is a little too confining but I would suggest that you consider one somewhere along the way as it will catch some loose ends.

Either way you decide to go, I'm sure you will have fun. And, of course, enjoy the "free time". Good luck on your retirement plans and your build. WEK.

[PhoneGUy]

Personally for me, I didn't know what I didn't know so I went with the complete kit with an understanding that there would be some parts that I would swap out for several different reason's. This approach has worked out for me - again I am not an expert, just a novice enjoying the build with family and friends.
I would also agree with the Wildcat in post #4 and after you come up with a build plan that meets your needs then you can evaluate the benefits of the complete kit vs donor. Certainly you can go the donor route and purchase the parts you want from FFR or other vendors (my personal favorite is Breeze Automotive)

For what it is worth - Here is my build plan. I would have attached as a word document, but I haven't figured out how to do such a thing on this forum.

Roadster Build Plan (format from MPTech ffrcars.com)
Build Overview with details to follow.

• Kit - Factory Five Racing – MK4 Roadster Complete Kit / 15 year Anniversary Edition.
• Engine – Ford Racing Crate Engine 302
• Transmission - 5 Speed Manual, T-5Z
• Suspension / Differential - independent front suspension, 3 link rear suspension with a Moser 8.8 Rear End and KONI Coil over shocks
• Wheels / Tires - Halibrand-style vintage wheels with pin drive racing spinners.
• Steering / Brakes – 15:1 manual steering, 13” 4 wheel disc brakes.
• Electronics / Wiring – FFR supplied wiring harness
• Interior - as close to authentic as comfortably possible, amenities will be hidden / subtle.
• Body – Color TBD, 2 options. Black with ghost stripes or blue with white stripes.

Drivetrain
Ford Racing Boss 302 with Powerjection 3 EFI (~350 HP)
Ford Cobra Clutch with Forte Hydraulic Clutch system
Tremec T5Z Transmission (.63 5th gear)
Moser 8.8 rear end with 3.55 gear
Fuel Pump in tank supplied by Breeze Automotive

Suspension
Objective: good ride and handling, street use, adjustable, common parts, maintainable, PosiTraction rear-end.

FFR front Upper & Lower Control Arms w/ Koni coil-over shocks.
Rear FFR 3 Link Suspension w/ Koni coil-over shocks.

Steering / Brakes
Objective: good steering and braking characteristics, simple to setup and maintain, general street use.
• FFR 15:1 Manual Supplied Steering
• FFR 13” 15 year AE, 4-wheel disc brakes
• Breeze Offset Steering Rack Bushings

Wheels / Tires
17-inch Vintage Halibrand Replica Wheels
17 x 9 front
17 x 10.5 rear
Tires:
Nitto
255/45R17 front
315/35R17 rear

Electronics / Wiring
Objective: Quality and safe wiring that is simple to install and a clean setup.

• FFR supplied Ron Francis wiring harness
• FFR supplied fuse panel
• Weather-pack connectors
• Engine bay battery mount (Breeze Automotive)

Interior
Objective: Maintain near original look of the CSX3016, with some modern conveniences, comforts, and improved safety.
• Dash
o S/C style dashboard w/vintage gauges layout TBD
o Period style switches, knobs, and indicator lights
o Russ Thompson turn signal
o Under dash courtesy lights
o Rearview mirror mounted on windshield
o Wind Wings & Visors
o Wood (original style) steering wheel
o FFR Floor Mats
• Seats
o FFR Supplied Authentic Leather Seats
• Transmission Tunnel
o Fire extinguisher, chrome (mounted at front)
o Removable transmission tunnel cover
o Shift chrome ring
• Footboxes / Pedals
o Wilwood pedal box
o RT Go Pedal
o Hydraulic clutch (Forte)
o Driver’s side footbox mod on the Go Pedal side.

• Other
o DS Chrome roll bars
o Herb’s door panels
o Koolmat Interior sound deadening material and Heat protection (Breeze Automotive
o FFR Supplied carpet
o Firewall forward mod (TBD)
Body
• Base color TBD with TBD Stripes (specific paint colors not identified yet)
• Paint & Stripe underside of hood and trunk
• Riveted Hood scoop w/ Stainless allen head bolts
• Riveted Hood w/ Stainless allen head bolts
• Sharkhide Protected Aluminum Panels
• Removable driver’s footbox top panel

[Gumball]

I've been at my build for just over two years. I started with a very detailed plan, and was going to use a donor for the majority of parts, including fuel injection. I've done a bunch of restorations, built a few race cars out of production vehicles, and have been known as a stalker of the original roadsters for going on two decades. That said, as my build progressed, I found myself enjoying the many mods that are possible to make the car unique and that help put your individual stamp on it. In my case, my tastes also changed - nothing against the track car / vintage race car theme that many take - but I went from full-on '60s team car (blue, white stripes, all the track-related goodies) to what I'm now calling a "gentleman's S/C" in British racing green, no stripes, and full bumpers with hoops. In addition, scope creep came in when things that I considered "good enough" for a driver and cruise night car at the beginning of the project no longer are good enough. Yeah, there have been added costs that weren't in the original budget, but I won't tell my wife if you guys don't. Also, I've found that all the extra work doing these little mods (like the mechanical linkage for the throttle I just finished mocking-up tonight) are really rewarding and I would have missed them if I stayed with my original plans.

In the end, I think you're on the right track - have the basics down, but remain flexible. Best of luck and keep us posted on the order and your build!!!

[Richard Oben]

If you have time and not money get a donor and rebuild everything yourself, except the engine. This will take a lot of time and save you a ton of money. JMHO, Richard.

[rick8928]

All Mustang Performance in AZ sells pallets. I went with an '04 DOHC Mod motor pallet from them. Still about a month away from first start, so can't verify everything will work perfectly, but nothing looked damaged. It's a cost compromise between rip-it-apart-donor and new components, and precludes the need to have a carcass in your driveway.

[CraigS]

If you are trying to get a car on the road for the least dollars possible the donor is probably worth while especially since you will have time. But,if you want a slightly nicer FFR, the complete kit is the way to go. Back in 1999 when FFR started you could get a good donor and it was only 5 yrs old. Now it will be 15-20yrs old so you have to question how much 20 yr old stuff you will be comfortable using. I haven't spent any time comparing base to complete kit but have come across a few differences reading here. I believe the complete comes w/ the tubular front LCAs and the new FFR designed front spindles which I think are very worthwhile.It also comes w/ a proper rear axle which is much better than a donor w/ drum brakes and 4 lug axles or disc brakes and axles that are too long. It also has the correct rear gear ratio.You will also get a proper wire harness which is a LOT nicer than dealing w/ a 15-20 yr old Mustang harness that you only need 50% of. One other thing i think is important is that you go w/ a 351 engine. As is it's much stronger internally and the extra cubes make it easier to get HP than from a 302.If you order your kit w/ a 351 in mind you get the right headers. If you switch later from 302 to 351 you need new neaders and intake.HTH

[3kcarbon]

Then there is the balanced approch.. O that sounds like political spin.. But you don't have to go total donor and end up with a hulk or a bunch of left overs to sell or store. You can buy select used parts that fit tour needs a few new parts that make sense to you and still come out. Every area has a guy on Craigs list that is scrapping out Mustangs as part of his pony car habit. I found one that would not only take the part off for me but gaurantee it like a dealer and sell it for half what a dealer would. I recall a builder on the forum paying $6500.00 for a nice old Fox body to go donor route with. One it was a shame to kill off a nice survivor Mustang but second you can about buy all new for that and not have to kill the Fox. Keep in mind the donor program was at its best when there were 20,000 mile donors wrecked and with pristine running gear. A 18 year old car probably isn't that cherry by now and if it is its not cheap.

[AC Bill]

Back in 1999 when FFR started you could get a good donor and it was only 5 yrs old. Now it will be 15-20yrs old so you have to question how much 20 yr old stuff you will be comfortable using.

All good points. FFR (actually started in 1995), builds their current kits to allow for using up to a 2004 donor, of which the components are newer, and can have lower mileage.

[Ray]

Mike,

I've got a picture in my head of a donor pallet but have no idea how one acquires it. I, too, don't want (and can't have where I live) a wreck sitting in the driveway. Desides the HOA, the wife would kill me. I would have to disassemble in the garage. The pallet idea intrigues me.

Cypress Auto in Oakland (http://www.cypressautorecyclers.com/factory5.html) has been selling donor pallets for several years for all of the different FFR projects.

They ship worldwide or you can pick the pallet up your self. I drove up with a friend to pick up his pallet early this year and the whole thing was really easy.

Ray

[Rusty_S85]

I've been at my build for just over two years. I started with a very detailed plan, and was going to use a donor for the majority of parts, including fuel injection. I've done a bunch of restorations, built a few race cars out of production vehicles, and have been known as a stalker of the original roadsters for going on two decades. That said, as my build progressed, I found myself enjoying the many mods that are possible to make the car unique and that help put your individual stamp on it. In my case, my tastes also changed - nothing against the track car / vintage race car theme that many take - but I went from full-on '60s team car (blue, white stripes, all the track-related goodies) to what I'm now calling a "gentleman's S/C" in British racing green, no stripes, and full bumpers with hoops. In addition, scope creep came in when things that I considered "good enough" for a driver and cruise night car at the beginning of the project no longer are good enough. Yeah, there have been added costs that weren't in the original budget, but I won't tell my wife if you guys don't. Also, I've found that all the extra work doing these little mods (like the mechanical linkage for the throttle I just finished mocking-up tonight) are really rewarding and I would have missed them if I stayed with my original plans.

In the end, I think you're on the right track - have the basics down, but remain flexible. Best of luck and keep us posted on the order and your build!!!

I havent even got my kit yet but Ive planned it out twice before and I am planning it a third time due to changes in idea. My very first idea was as yours was which was build a replica of one of the race cars. But my second and my now third plannings are revolving around building a race car the way a person would have personally built it in the 60`s with no major backing. The colors I desided on ranges from Ford to GM colors from 1956 - 1969. Since I was looking at the coupe I took what I liked best out of all the ones built and cobbled them together into one. That is one thing that makes forums like this great. You can get ideas from other builders and you always end up making changes to yours and it has me kind of wishing there was a stickied topic of all the different modifcations that have been done to these kits to make it easier for those first time builders to find all the ideas in one place.


I expect to be ready to place my order in the next few weeks but still have a few questions. My original idea was base with a full donor but I have decided not to risk a used engine and transmission. I met with Gordon Levy (thanks for taking the time to see me) and will likely go with one of his engines. I've seen a lot of traffic supporting the base package and then individually sourcing the rest of the parts. My questions are all about availability and relative cost of this option. My car will be a fairweather cruiser in Arizona and will never see a track. I'm retiring in 18 days so I will have lots more time than money....

A used engine/transmission might be good in some cases, I have a 351W in my daily driver with pushing 200,000 miles and runs good and clean and gets great gas miliage for a carbed engine. To rebuild this engine I could have it rebuilt and have it built up some for under $2500 locally vs buying a crate engine which most of the crate engines I came across that I liked ranged from $4,000 on up to $15,000. I planned on getting a junkyard 302 block and take it to Houston engine and balancing (they do race engines and oem engines) have it bored out and sleeved to oem dimensions and build a straight forward 302 displacement street performance engine. Other idea was to go with a mild stroker but I will say my very first plan was a 418w stroker made from a 351W but I threw that idea out not due to the power but due to the crappy rod ratio it would have and increased side wall loading and increased cylinder wear. But the thing you have to think of is what do you plan to do. If you dont plan on stepping down on the throttle and driving the car hard then whats the point in having a worked over performance engine if your going to drive it easy.


If you are trying to get a car on the road for the least dollars possible the donor is probably worth while especially since you will have time. But,if you want a slightly nicer FFR, the complete kit is the way to go. Back in 1999 when FFR started you could get a good donor and it was only 5 yrs old. Now it will be 15-20yrs old so you have to question how much 20 yr old stuff you will be comfortable using. I haven't spent any time comparing base to complete kit but have come across a few differences reading here. I believe the complete comes w/ the tubular front LCAs and the new FFR designed front spindles which I think are very worthwhile.It also comes w/ a proper rear axle which is much better than a donor w/ drum brakes and 4 lug axles or disc brakes and axles that are too long. It also has the correct rear gear ratio.You will also get a proper wire harness which is a LOT nicer than dealing w/ a 15-20 yr old Mustang harness that you only need 50% of. One other thing i think is important is that you go w/ a 351 engine. As is it's much stronger internally and the extra cubes make it easier to get HP than from a 302.If you order your kit w/ a 351 in mind you get the right headers. If you switch later from 302 to 351 you need new neaders and intake.HTH

Nice thing is if your in my postion or know someone that is you can get brand new stock replacement parts for the mustangs for your build at discount. That is why I was looking more at oem parts instead of dumping money in things like crossdrilled and slotted rotors, instead of dropping a few grand for the rotor and caliper kit I can get four rotors and four calipers for a few hundred brand new while paying the core charge.

You are right about the 351, its a nice engine and it was in my orignal plan but I keep leaning towards a 302 now over a 351 since I can get some 289 valve covers to fit the 302 and I doubt I could on a 351. If I could I would go with a 351 cause they are alot easier to get power out of, down side is theres not as many performance parts for the 351w compared to the 302 and stroking a 351W nets you good power but crappy rod ratio compared to stroking a 302. One also has to think about what transmission their going to go with, the Hurst Driveline T5 for example is only good for about 300 ft/lbs of trq so if your going with a real torque monster of a engine the T5 would not survive unless it was beefed up. The TKO 600 though can handle up to 600 ft/lbs of trq which is better for lots of trq.

[NICK C]

I purchased the complete kit. When I started this venture, I was going to go all donor and had been collecting steering racks, rear ends, brakes, etc. Other Mustang projects came and went over the years and my plan slowly morphed towards a complete kit. About the only thing I have from the original collected items is the 460 block, all the intenals are new. I have sold or used the other donor parts collected. The project of building one of these cars is a living entity in itself and pulls you along for the ride. Many factors guide the process. Money, time, family, sickness and a slew other things get us there. Each build is as different as the person building. All I can say is this is the cleanest build or project I've encountered in my life. So, no matter which way you go, is the best way for you. The people on this forum are the greatest for help and guidence. Use em. Good luck with your build. Nick