Wiring question....

[rj35pj]

Here is what I would like to do. I am using a Ron Francis harness. To start my car I would like to turn the key to the on position, flip a toggle switch and hit a push button to start. The more I look at the wiring diagram the more confused I get so I am asking those more experienced folks on this forum to hold my hand and show me what goes where.........
Thanks,
Bob

[VD2021]

You will need to have your swt activate a relay that powers your starter circuit.

Install the relay with in 6" of the ignition switch and ensure you connections are solid and the entire job is safe and secure.

Wire the relay terminals and start swt as follows:

-30 = Battery (+). (Will likely be the heaviest gauge wire at the ign swt, carries battery all of the times)
-85 = Ign (+).
-86 = Your flip cover starter switch (-) (You will need to ground the other terminal of you flip top starter switch)
-87 = Starter Wire
-87a =Not used and should be capped (if you're using a 5 terminal relay) because it is connected to terminal 30 unless the coil is powered.

[rj35pj]

You will need to have your swt activate a relay that powers your starter circuit.

Install the relay with in 6" of the ignition switch and ensure you connections are solid and the entire job is safe and secure.

Wire the relay terminals and start swt as follows:

-30 = Battery (+). (Will likely be the heaviest gauge wire at the ign swt, carries battery all of the times)
-85 = Ign (+).
-86 = Your flip cover starter switch (-) (You will need to ground the other terminal of you flip top starter switch)
-87 = Starter Wire
-87a =Not used and should be capped (if you're using a 5 terminal relay) because it is connected to terminal 30 unless the coil is powered.

VD2021,
I think this will make more sense to me once I have the relay. I'm assuming I will hook up the remaining wires from the harness to the keyed ignition switch as shown in the diagram.....correct???

[VD2021]

VD2021,
I think this will make more sense to me once I have the relay. I'm assuming I will hook up the remaining wires from the harness to the keyed ignition switch as shown in the diagram.....correct???

Yes, Sir. With the exception of the starter wire to the ign switch. Leaving it disconnected from the ign switch will leave your flip top cover swt as the only way to activate the starter.

[rj35pj]

VD2021, Thank you, this wiring will be my next project. I have the dash all wired except for the ignition switch and I'm ready to install the dash. Thanks again!

[loeffler1]

You don't need a relay. You allready have one at the starter motor. All you need is a start switch (for instance at Del City at $10 to $12 bucks, I think red, green or blue, illuminated if you wish). Ron Francis also sells one but a lot more bucks, I think like $35. Run a wire from ignition hot to the switch and disconnect the wire from the existing switch that goes to the starter and attach it to the other side of your new switch and you should be good to go. Turning the ignition switch on will provide power to the start switch and pressing the start switch will complete the existing circuit to the existing starter relay which should allready exist somewhere on your fire wall near your starter motor. Adding a relay only means you are energizing a relay to energize another relay, a waste of a relay.

Bill

Bill

[CJBergquist]

Bob, do you want three switches to start your car? Ignition, toggle and push button?

I used a Honda "Engine Start" button. I have to turn on the ignition switch with a key then push the Start button. Is that what you are looking for?

6765

While I think this looks cool in hind sight I wish I had left it out. I also put a switch on the electric fuel pump which I wish I had left out. All this does is make for more things to go wrong and increases the complexity of trouble shooting. I hate to think of how many times I'm going to start the car and head down the road only to have the engine die because I forgot to switch on the fuel pump.

The Ron Francis kit is a very well engineered piece and I don't think any of my changes made it better...

[Jeff Kleiner]

As Bill said you're making it harder than necessary.
If you want a toggle for ignition and a pushbutton for start put an ON/OFF toggle in the orange "ignition feed" coming off of the ignition switch. Take a wire from the hot side of the toggle to the feed side of a momentary pushbutton. Remove the light blue "ns feed" from the ignition switch and connect it to the load side of the momentary pushbutton. Done! Turn on the key, turn on the toggle and push the button! To shut the car off turn off either the toggle or key. Some reduncency and monkey motion but if that's what you want knock yourself out and have fun with it!
If you are using a Ford EEC-IV system you need to be sure to also keep the "EFI crank" wire coupled to the load side of the pushbutton so that it pulls back timing while cranking. If you want to be able to crank with the key on but ignition off power the feed side of the momentary from the ignition pole of the key switch rather than the hot side of the ignition toggle. What I've described above still runs the start signal activating the solenoid through the clutch safety switch. If you do not plan to use a clutch switch (IMO you should) you will need to couple the light blue wires together at the pedal box.

Cheers,
Jeff

[VD2021]

Here is what I would like to do. I am using a Ron Francis harness. To start my car I would like to turn the key to the on position, flip a toggle switch and hit a push button to start. The more I look at the wiring diagram the more confused I get so I am asking those more experienced folks on this forum to hold my hand and show me what goes where.........
Thanks,
Bob

Bob,
The instructions I listed above will be for the push button for the starter. As I typed I had a flip covered swt in mind not "flip a toggle switch" and then hit the swt under the cover to activate the starter. So the initial thread is incomplete for what you are asking.

With that said I would not recommend not using a relay unless the push button is rated to carry the load of that circuit or your Ron Francis Wiring System is designed to where you can use a momentary swt. If the swt is under rated the contacts will eventually deteriorate or even fuse together. If they fuse your starter is going to turn until you pull the battery power and correct the problem. Just my recommendation.

Here's my recommendation. Since you want to turn the key to the on/run position first and then flip a switch before pushing the start button I would recommend you use a latching swt wired to open/close the ign circuit (wire) at the ign swt. Wire the push button as I listed above and you're set.

[rj35pj]

Okay....well I am usually looking to keep things simple. For some strange reason I thought it would be "neat" to have the key, toggle and pushbutton to start the car.......Now I'm not so sure. Chris, I was modeling my start sequence after seeing your dash, now to find out you have some regrets..... Then there is a diffence of opinion as to what would work best. All this kind of gives me cold feet, then I think, all I have to do is wire up the key with the harness already labeled and I'm done. If I go just key I will have a covered toggle and push button that is just for looks......(it is already in the dash and I've got it all finished and ready to install). Hmmm....decisions, descisions.....
What ever I decided to do I really appreciate all the responses and ideas that have been offered.

[CJBergquist]

Bob, I used the Honda Start button ($42) and it is a low current switch so I had to wire it up through a relay.
Source >>> http://www.handa-accessories.com/s2000-03maint.html

I have a hand drawn wiring diagram I could scan and post if we haven't talked you out of this. I'm kind of negative these days on anything that extends my build time...I think it's a "mid-build crisis". I'm sure I'll get over it. FYI, all the high current buttons I've seen look like something for a ride around lawn mower. That's why I went to the trouble of the Honda switch. There is a good discussion on this subject on the "other" forum. Do a search for "Honda S2000 Start Switch - Corrected wiring diagram"

[Rusty_S85]

I hate to step on feet here but I just have to put this out there so people arent misinformed.

On the use of a relay for the starting circuit, you do not need to have it with in 6 inches of the ignition switch. If there was a problem the auto makers wouldnt have been installing their relays up to 6 feet away from the ignition switch.

All that needs to be done is run a small gauge (preferably a 18ga primary wire) from the switch in question to the relay mounted under the hood somewheres. When you activate the wiring the low amp current activates the relay this relay activates a plunger completing the circuit between the battery cables providing high amp current directly to the starter. Now as far as a relay being at the starter, no ford starter I have seen had the relay built in thats a GM/Chrysler thing. Ford relays are mounted remotely on the fender or firewall of vehicles considering ford uses a sliding pole shoe starter over the solenoid activated starter GM uses.

Just remember long as you have a relay mounted in the circuit it doesnt matter how far from the switch it is cause the relay is designed to use low amp/volt to control high amp/volt power sources. If I didnt mind sharing my wiring diagram I created for the coupe I would like to build I would post it here for all to see how you can wire a car simply from scratch and still have safe use of relays and circuit breakers. Also this is not ment to be an attack on anyone, just informing people to prevent things being made harder than it has to be.

[CJBergquist]

Rusty when you talk about remote relays do you mean the starter solenoid? I have a 351W and I used a starter from a 93 Mustang 5.0. It has a built in solenoid. It eliminates the need for a remote solenoid.
http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/USL0/32281.oap?year=1993&make=Ford&model=Mustang&vi=1134098&ck=Search_starter_01920_1134098_2553&keyword=starter&pt=01920&ppt=C0330

I used a standard relay (like the one for the electric fan) for the Honda starter button because it has been reported on the other forum it will burn out if you wire it directly to the starter solenoid.

[Rusty_S85]

Rusty when you talk about remote relays do you mean the starter solenoid? I have a 351W and I used a starter from a 93 Mustang 5.0. It has a built in solenoid. It eliminates the need for a remote solenoid.
http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/USL0/32281.oap?year=1993&make=Ford&model=Mustang&vi=1134098&ck=Search_starter_01920_1134098_2553&keyword=starter&pt=01920&ppt=C0330

I used a standard relay (like the one for the electric fan) for the Honda starter button because it has been reported on the other forum it will burn out if you wire it directly to the starter solenoid.

The starter solenoid and relays are the same thing, all relays are is a solenoid that uses small current to activate a circuit that uses high current. Is that starter a oem stock one cause I have yet to see a ford starter with the solenoid atop it. If they are doing that I wonder why after 60 years ford desided to get rid of the tried and true pole shoe starter for a solenoid starter like GM uses. I know from summit I could even get aftermarket starters with the solenoid mounted atop it even for vintage cars but I personally wouldnt use one for the simple fact that heat from the exhaust will kill solenoids quickly. I dont know how many starters I had to pull out of my 63 because the headers literally cooked the starter solenoid.

Now if you are running a starter like you posted you dont need a relay cause the solenoid is the relay. You are using small current to activate a plunger to engage the starter and complete the circuit from the high current battery cable to the starter motor for starting. If it was reported that the starter button burned out, I would suspect that the starter button doesnt run at 12 volts which means you would need a voltage reducer. I know alot of automakers are using low voltage switches more and more now adays and that is probably where the burn out reports come from is that they are designed to run off say 4 or 5 volts and people are putting 12 volts to them and burning them out. But if this is the case just adding a relay wouldnt lower the voltage or the amperage unless you are trying to activate something directly with the circuit. A starter pulls up to 800 amps of power and the harder the engine is to turn over from high compression the more amps it will take. If you didnt have a solenoid your key switch would be trying to feed that amps to the starter and burn the wire instantly. The relay eliminates this.

So if one wants to run a secondary relay be my guest but in the automotive electrical systems it will just be one more relay to burn out and leave you stranded. On the wiring design I came up with for my build from the ground up requires the use of 7 relays. 1 relay for the horn, 1 relay for the electric fuel pump (if I go the electric route), 1 relay for the starter (oem starter relay), 2 relays for the electric fan circuits (1 for the temp sensor circuit and 1 for the bypass circuit), and 2 relays for the headlight circuit (1 for low beam 1 for high beam) I could cut the relays down even more by using diodes and eliminate the double relay circuits and use just a single relay for both circuits but I rather be redundant and have the more important systems doubled up. In the fan case if the relay for the automatic fans burns out I still got the manual over ride circuit where I can force the fans to come on. If I lose high beam headlights I still got low beam and vise versa.



But I will look intot he honda starter button and I will let you know if its possible for the switch to burn out wiring directly to the starter relay/solenoid. Honestly I dont see how it could considering your not flowing high amps through the button, to the starter solenoid its no more than 25 amps worth of power flowing through the key switch to the solenoid on a typical ford starter system. Unless Honda is using even less amperage circuitry which then you should look more into a circuit breaker mounted inline with the switch which will throw the breaker if you exceed the amperage of the switch but you can reset it so your not stranded somewheres.

[CJBergquist]

Rusty, I agree with all of what you have posted except that Ford has/is using starters with integrated solenoids. Just to make sure I just searched both O'Reilly and Napa Auto Parts for a '93 Mustang 5.0 GT starter. They both returned 9 different starters and all came with the integrated solenoid. When I was wiring my coupe I contacted Ron Francis (he seems to answer all the technical question emails) and he recommended dumping the isolated solenoid and going to the newer configuration. He said that the only reason it was included was because FFR designed the package that way for people using an older donor engine that does require the external solenoid.

A search of "Honda S2000 Button" on the "other" forum and you will see where I got the recommendation for using a relay with the Honda Button. Who knows, maybe the relay is over kill.

[Rusty_S85]

Rusty, I agree with all of what you have posted except that Ford has/is using starters with integrated solenoids. Just to make sure I just searched both O'Reilly and Napa Auto Parts for a '93 Mustang 5.0 GT starter. They both returned 9 different starters and all came with the integrated solenoid. When I was wiring my coupe I contacted Ron Francis (he seems to answer all the technical question emails) and he recommended dumping the isolated solenoid and going to the newer configuration. He said that the only reason it was included was because FFR designed the package that way for people using an older donor engine that does require the external solenoid.

A search of "Honda S2000 Button" on the "other" forum and you will see where I got the recommendation for using a relay with the Honda Button. Who knows, maybe the relay is over kill.

Guess it must be for just the Mustangs cause I can recall seeing a external starter relay on a F150 as new as 2000 but then again I wasnt really looking at the starting system on the truck. But in the end its no big deal the older externally mounted relays can be used since the 302 in 93 is the same block as in the 70`s as far as starter mounting goes.

Now in this case the integrated solenoid is up to the person, I will say from personal experiance the integrated solenoids are nice and clean looking but they are a pain on performance vehicles. My 63 is a vintage race car with wishbone headers that wraps around the starter and the solenoid is always burning out every couple years due to heat but the starter is fine where as my 78 Mercury still has the orignal ford solenoid on the fender and starter and still operates fine. I guess I just hate having to change solenoids on integrated starters compared to externally mounted and is what also makes me un easy about the integrated ones.

When it comes to things like this one group of people have one opinion and another group has a seperate. I wanted to have the generator on my 56 rebuilt by Generator so it has custom built alternator pieces installed in the generator housing. Well he didnt at the time (not sure about now) make them to hook up like the orignals wiring wise to utilize the external regulator. He told me that they were no good and never worked right. Well my 63 has the orignal one as well as the 56 as well as my 78 and all the orignal regulators work fine and charges fine. My experiance disagrees with what he says and he said that the points operated ones were no good. I mentioned to him the replacement pieces are solid state now and I think he started making the generators like I wanted or at the very least he started upgrading the regulators. Its all about perception when it comes to this, just like how you got GM/Ford/Chrysler nuts that dont like anything other than their prefered make.

I understand the recomendations, I would take recomendations on building these kits as well from others since I never done a ground up from scratch build. It is good to have more safety when it comes to wiring than not enough, but just being honest a dual relay setup wouldnt really help the Honda button last cause your still flowing the same ammount of current but if it makes you feel safer that is great.