No Start Engine Puzzle

[drewr]

So I had my first start a few weeks ago. Very straightforward. Turned over and fired. I only ran it a couple of minutes because I had a pretty good oil leak. I panicked at first thinking it was the rear main seal as the oil dripped at the joint between the engine and the transmission. I eventually satisfied myself that it came from the valve covers. I was using stupid cork gaskets.

So it took a while for me to get nice Felpro gaskets, and I put it all back together. “Click”. No turn.

I charged the new battery that cranked fine a few weeks ago. A type 58 with 650 crank amps. I even took it back to the store where I bought it and had them test it. Great shape and charged. I bench tested the starter and took it to the parts store to have it tested. All good.

I took out the spark plugs and the engine turns fine. Put the plugs back in, “Click”.

So my engine is a stroker 347 with AFR 185 cc heads, maybe 10-11:1 compression. Do I need more crank amps? Why would it work before and not now? I disconnected the fuel pump during all of this, so I’m pretty sure it’s not flooded.

I appreciate any ideas.

[DanQ]

I am going to assume the click you hear is coming from the solenoid or the starter. If so, here is your troubleshooting process. Double check all battery cable ends (at the battery and at block and solenoid) Paint has an uncanny power of getting between metals that need to be touching each other to make a connection, especially on a new build, where all that pretty paint starts to prevent those electrons from flowing. Take a grounded test light to the battery positive cable at the solenoid, it should light. Next, move the test light to the solenoid "out" side, and there should not be power there until someone turns the key to the crank position. No light during crank means bad solenoid, lights up during crank means you go to the next connection downstream, which should be the starter. Same test there, if it lights, problem is the starter. Naturally, you should take apart each of these connections to verify they are clean and tight. You see we are just starting at the battery and working down the line to the load (starter). If the ground connections are good, we have just completed a full circuit test of the starter motor and it should be working. Don't jump here and there checking connections, but start at the battery and follow the cable to each connection until you reach the starter.

[drewr]

Thanks for that. I have checked the circuit and it all seems live. The starter works and turns the motor with the plugs out, but does not turn with the plugs in. I assumed the ground was good, but will check.

[Windsor]

Put a 1/2"-drive breaker bar with impact socket on the front pulley bolt on the crankshaft and see if you can turn it over by hand.

First with plugs out, then with plugs in (but no wires connected and no power, of course).

It should be more difficult but not impossible.

[DanQ]

OK, that is very odd. Please let us know when that culprit is found.

[Al_C]

So what changed from the first start until now? Did you connect or disconnect anything else when you changed the valve cover gaskets? What linkage (in the electrical sense) is there between your starter and the plugs?

[RRussellTx]

My money is on a weak ground.
Maybe run a jumper cable from the negative terminal on the battery to the engine or side of the starter to confirm.

[J R Jones]

Look for a battery voltage drop while running the starter motor. (with & without plugs)
jim

[JimLev]

The starter will draw a lot more current to turn the engine over when the plugs are in than when they are out.
Bad connection somewhere in either the + or - .

[svassh]

My engine is almost identical specs and pauses for a second before it gets the motor turning over. I have a yellow odyssey battery not sure of specs. I would eliminate the ground concern others have discussed. If you battery is in front just run a jumper cable from negative to the engine somewhere solid.

[cob427sc]

Why not jump the solonoid at the battery connection to the keyed side of the starter and see if it turns over. I'm with the group that there is a weak ground or positive connection and the increased draw under compression won't allow the starter to spin it over.

[drewr]

Thanks all! I have been chasing down the ground issues as well. The battery is good. I took it to an Autozone to have it tested. I have made sure the ground is good. I have continuity between the starter and negative terminal of the battery. I cleaned up all the ground connections. I tried the jumper between the negative terminal of the starter and the negative terminal of the battery. Same issue. Turns without plugs but not with. I tried grounding the starter to the block. No difference.

I think the cause may be that I started it and ran it for just a minute or two. Maybe the rings expanded slightly making the compression a little higher. It turns over by hand just fine both with and without plugs. My compression should be 10.5:1. At least that's what I get from AFR.

I'm wondering if the kit supplied 4 gauge battery to starter cable is simply not big enough. I ordered a 1/0 gauge cable (idea i got off the Mustang forums) for the starter wire. Should be able to deliver more amps. We'll see.

Thanks again for the help.

[Indy Shu]

Did they load test the battery or just check voltage?

[drewr]

Well he just put his little battery checker on it and told me it was good. It was brand new bought last June. I only cranked it once. I'll check the voltage under load. The battery's replaceable up to 2 years.

[Papa]

Starting to think it could be the starter based on comments that it won't turn over with plugs in, but you can turn it over by hand.

I used the 4ga. kit-provided cable and have never had a problem. I also don't have all the power leads running to the starter. I used a bus bar under the dash. I ran + from battery to the starter, then another 4ga wire from the starter to the bus bar where all the other connections are made.

[Nigel Allen]

16 posts, a trip to AutoZone, a new battery cable, lots of time spent.
Buy a multimeter and get rid of the guesswork.

Cheers, nige

[JimLev]

It’s not the rings.
I’m not that familiar with your starter, it either has a solenoid mounted on it or a remote solenoid.
Bridge the 2 studs together with a big screwdriver and see if it turns over.
It’s either a bad connection or a bad starter solenoid.
(Pic from the web)
179039

[Nigel Allen]

Sorry, I realised that my last post was a bit blunt. If you can get your hands on a meter, I am more than happy to provide you with the support to locate the fault. I expect we can sort it out in under 10 minutes working time.

Cheers,

Nige

[Nigel Allen]

Also, you didn't mention if you have a battery isolator fitted. If it is one of the red flag type, it could be the problem, as I have seen many of these fail. Possibly because they are often counterfeit. It might be worth bridging it out if this is the case.

[drewr]

So I've bench tested the starter and it spins right up. I took it the shop and they tested it as well. It is good. I have a multimeter so will check the lines. How do I check resistance in the ground circuit? There is definitely continuity from the starter, the block the negative pole of the battery. So I believe its a bad connection as well. I'm using the straightforward from the manual set up. Positive pole of battery to the starter. Power leads from the Ron Francis harness to the starter. Blue ignition wire to the starter. Like I said in the OP, it did crank and fire once.

[drewr]

So I tried the battery under load. It dropped from 12.6 to 10.6 v. So probably bad battery. I’ll let you know what happens.
Thanks for all the help.

[burchfieldb]

So I tried the battery under load. It dropped from 12.6 to 10.6 v. So probably bad battery. I’ll let you know what happens.
Thanks for all the help.

I had a similar issue and switched to a yellow top Optima and have not had any problems since, fires right up. One other issue I ran into in the past, if you are running efi, was emi with the distributor and the air cleaner.

[JimLev]

So I tried the battery under load. It dropped from 12.6 to 10.6 v. So probably bad battery. I’ll let you know what happens.
Thanks for all the help.

10.6 is pretty much dead. How did Autozone figure it was good?

[drewr]

10.6 is pretty much dead. How did Autozone figure it was good?

Seriously. They’ll replace it. But still a Duralast battery.

[Nigel Allen]

As Jim said, 10.6v with no load connected is definitely dead. 10.6v whilst cranking is fine. Especially in cold conditions. From experience, anything above 9 will get even large diesel motors turning over. 2 questions:
1. Did you measure volts whilst cranking? It is important to have the load of the starter motor applied when you are taking the measurement.

2. Did you take the measurement at the starter motor?

If not, repeat the test, taking the measurements at the starter motor positive (positive meter lead) and the engine block (negative meter lead)

If the result is more than 1 volt lower than what you measured at the battery then it's fair to say that you have high resistance connection somewhere along the way.

Your other option is to fit a replacement battery or jumper a second battery to see if that makes a difference.


Let me know how you get on.

cheers Nigel

[drewr]

As Jim said, 10.6v with no load connected is definitely dead. 10.6v whilst cranking is fine. Especially in cold conditions. From experience, anything above 9 will get even large diesel motors turning over. 2 questions:
1. Did you measure volts whilst cranking? It is important to have the load of the starter motor applied when you are taking the measurement.

2. Did you take the measurement at the starter motor?

If not, repeat the test, taking the measurements at the starter motor positive (positive meter lead) and the engine block (negative meter lead)

If the result is more than 1 volt lower than what you measured at the battery then it's fair to say that you have high resistance connection somewhere along the way.

Your other option is to fit a replacement battery or jumper a second battery to see if that makes a difference.


Let me know how you get on.

cheers Nigel

Well, it's 12.6 from battery post to post and drops to 10.6 volts when I turn the key to try to crank (from battery post to battery post). I'll try at the starter posts as well. Thanks.

[drewr]

So I figured it out. It was a ground problem. I brightened up the connection on the frame for the ground strap from the engine block to the frame. I added another ground strap from the starter bolt to the bell housing to the frame. So it turns over no problem.

Great! Thanks for the help and encouragement.

Now what the heck happened? Somehow the grounding from the starter body to the bell housing to the block had a lot of resistance. Now both the starter and the block are grounded to frame so it cuts out the resistance. Weird. But at least it spins again. Too late to start the engine again. Will report back when it’s running.

[Nigel Allen]

Even the thinnest layer of paint is an excellent insulator. Lead oxide on a battery post is also an insulator, hence the posts and clamps should be made shiny just prior to connection. As an aside, electrical tape is good for 1,000 volts insulation per layer...

Totally pleased that you got it cranking.

Every strike brings me closer to the next home run.
–Babe Ruth (1895-1948), baseball legend

[J R Jones]

My OEM experience has been to use star washers at ground connections to bite into the metal under clamp load.

jim

[Papa]

I also put a dab of dielectric grease on the bare metal to prevent corrosion.

[GoDadGo]

......Congratulations!
We've all had to deal with gremlins too!

[DanQ]

Good to hear that it is working. Keep in mind for future electrical issues, that reading full voltage across a connection or down a cable is one thing, but getting full amperage is another. You were reading voltage at the starter, but it only needs a small trickle of current to read full voltage. A voltage drop test is best to find those high resistance gremlins. You keep the battery cable hooked up as normal, then using an analog voltmeter (or even a small test light) connected the leads to the start and end of the cable, connection, or whatever you suspect is restricting amperage flow, and crank the starter. If the connection is good, most of the current will pass down the cable, as it was designed to do and the volt meter will show very small voltage (less that 1 volt) If the connection is bad, or covered with rust, corrosion, paint, or just loose, a large amount of current will travel through the voltmeter and read up to 12 volts, or the test light will light up bright. Electricity will always take the path of least resistance.