Montana registration

[Gizmosrcool]

Anyone have experience with Montana registration?

I am in queue for a kit due in March. I have waited 8 months and a lot of time to think. I am not super happy with assembled from parts registration in FL. It seems the easy button to register in Montana and wondering if anyone has gone down this path. Any issues with insurance or anything else?

Or is this a dumb idea?

Thx. Tom

[edwardb]

This has been talked about several times. This thread is still out there: https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?36632-Create-an-LLC-in-Montana-and-register-your-car-from-anywhere-tax-free-EASY!.

[MB750]

For what it's worth, that whole "assembled from parts" BS should be water under the bridge now that FFR has registration with the NHTSA:

https://vpic.nhtsa.dot.gov/mid/manufacturer/details/21481

But nobody here on the forum seems to have tried this path yet so your results may vary.

If my Roadster kit was ready for registration I'd be testing the waters. Personally, if the FL DMV pushes me towards an "assembled from parts" title I'll be taking my business elsewhere, like Montana.

[MB750]

Regarding that Montana thing...

I can see the "dishonesty" in the loophole. Be that as it may, it's still legal. Why couldn't someone go though the motions getting their MT title, and then just head to their local DMV and transfer it to their home state? Last I checked, you don't pay sales tax on a vehicle just to transfer a title (UNLESS you live in CA and it's less than 12 months since your current title is dated).

Edit: I had to LAUGH at this line from the AJC.com article:

"On a busy day, out-of-state registrations can increase the wait to as long as two hours."

Must be a flyover state issue. I can't remember the time I spent LESS than two hours at the DMV for anything.

One other thing I just noticed. If dodging the tax bill is of great importance, that LLC loophole will come with a labor cost of around $1300. To me, it's not worth the effort when FL state taxes on my build are 7%, which boils down to $1701.

[Badfish]

I was not aware of this! Inspection / registration was not an issue for me in CT, however the town raised my annual vehicle tax by 2000% in 2020. Although I fought it, appeals declined.

Since my kit is 20 years old this year, I’ve been trying to get classic plates, which would cap the assessment at $500 annual (therefore for the tax is like $17).

In discussions with DMV, they do not recognize ‘composite vehicles’ as eligible for classic plates, ever. Therefore, the town can abuse me year over year. Part of the discussion was FFR is not a recognized manufacturer. I plan to send them that link. Thanks!

CT Statute 14-1:

(3) “Antique, rare or special interest motor vehicle” means a motor vehicle twenty years old or older which is being preserved because of historic interest and which is not altered or modified from the original manufacturer's specifications

(55) “Modified antique motor vehicle” means a motor vehicle twenty years old or older which has been modified for safe road use, including, but not limited to, modifications to the drive train, suspension, braking system and safety or comfort apparatus




For what it's worth, that whole "assembled from parts" BS should be water under the bridge now that FFR has registration with the NHTSA:

https://vpic.nhtsa.dot.gov/mid/manufacturer/details/21481

But nobody here on the forum seems to have tried this path yet so your results may vary.

If my Roadster kit was ready for registration I'd be testing the waters. Personally, if the FL DMV pushes me towards an "assembled from parts" title I'll be taking my business elsewhere, like Montana.

[MB750]

I was not aware of this! Inspection / registration was not an issue for me in CT, however the town raised my annual vehicle tax by 2000% in 2020. Although I fought it, appeals declined.

Since my kit is 20 years old this year, I’ve been trying to get classic plates, which would cap the assessment at $500 annual (therefore for the tax is like $17).

In discussions with DMV, they do not recognize ‘composite vehicles’ as eligible for classic plates, ever. Therefore, the town can abuse me year over year. Part of the discussion was FFR is not a recognized manufacturer. I plan to send them that link. Thanks!

CT Statute 14-1:

(3) “Antique, rare or special interest motor vehicle” means a motor vehicle twenty years old or older which is being preserved because of historic interest and which is not altered or modified from the original manufacturer's specifications

(55) “Modified antique motor vehicle” means a motor vehicle twenty years old or older which has been modified for safe road use, including, but not limited to, modifications to the drive train, suspension, braking system and safety or comfort apparatus




HOLY HELL!!! 2000%? Is that a typo?

That's some California level red-tape shenanigans right there...

[Jeff Kleiner]

Regarding the Montana registration deal. Back when I first got involved with Factory Five cars in 2000 some builders were registering cars by a similar method in Alabama. That collapsed, big time, a few years later. Hundreds of cars had their registrations pulled, the state of California tried and convicted the operator of the Alabama company and it was a major reason for the downfall of Boyd Coddington's empire since he had been using this method to circumvent registration rules and regulations. His shop was raided (undoubtedly because he was high profile), registrations pulled, charges filed and a costly settlement reached. Little guy owners just had to forfeit their registrations and start over to title and license their cars legally and pay backdue taxes. Lots of information to be found on the Googles by searching "Titles Unlimited Alabama" "Titles Unlimited Coddington" etc. Proceed at your own peril...

As far as an "Assembled from parts" title. Why the objection? I mean, that's EXACTLY what it is.

Jeff

[Mike.Bray]

the town raised my annual vehicle tax by 2000% in 2020.

Okay completely ignorant here, I guess just a dumb old Texan. What is an "annual vehicle tax"? In Texas we have an annual inspection which is about $25 I think and then an annual registration which on my personal cars & trucks averages about $75. That's it. Are you saying you guys are paying additional taxes and fees? Like property tax on a car?? I'd be getting the hell out of there! lol

[mladen]

Virginia has a 4% personal property tax charged yearly on any vehicle you won.

[Dave Tabor]

https://www.chp.ca.gov/Notify-CHP/chp-reg-(Out-of-State-Registration-Violators)#chpregForm

[Jeff Kleiner]

Okay completely ignorant here, I guess just a dumb old Texan. What is an "annual vehicle tax"? In Texas we have an annual inspection which is about $25 I think and then an annual registration which on my personal cars & trucks averages about $75. That's it. Are you saying you guys are paying additional taxes and fees? Like property tax on a car?? I'd be getting the hell out of there! lol

In Indiana we pay an annual “excise tax” on vehicles with our registration. It’s based on the vehicle’s new value and age dropping annually until it bottoms out at 25 bucks after I think 7 years. As an example I just checked the registration slip on my 3 year old Ram pickup and it was $210 last year. The FFR roadster has been $25 ever since I first registered it 15 years ago, probably because the State of Indiana called it a 1965 when they issued the title.

Jeff

[Badfish]

You’re reading it correctly, 2000%. After 16+ years, 10+ in the same town, they decided to assess me at $50K. Check out the links in my autosig for all the ugly details!


HOLY HELL!!! 2000%? Is that a typo?

That's some California level red-tape shenanigans right there...

[JeffP]

Okay completely ignorant here, I guess just a dumb old Texan. What is an "annual vehicle tax"? In Texas we have an annual inspection which is about $25 I think and then an annual registration which on my personal cars & trucks averages about $75. That's it. Are you saying you guys are paying additional taxes and fees? Like property tax on a car?? I'd be getting the hell out of there! lol

Pretty much - many states have a personal property tax or whatever you want to call it. VA as mentioned is about 4% (theres a wierd scale) NC is a little better - maybe 2%. But then our sales tax at the register is lower than Texas' 8.25% too, but then we have state in come tax (~3%).

One way or another the man is going to get his cut.. each state just labels it different but its all TAX.

[Badfish]

Yep, annual property tax on all vehicles in CT. Hence my roadster has been taxed out of CT. They got $3000 out of me in 2 years.


Okay completely ignorant here, I guess just a dumb old Texan. What is an "annual vehicle tax"? In Texas we have an annual inspection which is about $25 I think and then an annual registration which on my personal cars & trucks averages about $75. That's it. Are you saying you guys are paying additional taxes and fees? Like property tax on a car?? I'd be getting the hell out of there! lol

[MB750]

https://www.chp.ca.gov/Notify-CHP/chp-reg-(Out-of-State-Registration-Violators)#chpregForm

That right there is one of the many reasons I left that state in 2018.

Living there was nice, but it always felt like the state was "nickel-n-diming" me at every turn.

[BradCraig]

As it's been explained to me....It's totally legal to start an LLC in Montana and register your cars under that business. HOWEVER, what is legal in Montana may be frowned upon in your home state. This is big in the RV community and there are stories of DMV cruising storage facilities looking for Montana plates then they go after the owners. It's tax avoidance plain and simple so you better be able to prove your LLC is a legit business doing business in your state.

AND, seems like a great way to get an insurance claim denied.

[Mike.Bray]

Charging a property tax or excise tax every year on something that's already bought and paid for, yikes! No thanks, I'll stay here in Texas. Our sales tax may be a little higher (except for CA) but we don't have a state income tax or any other these other taxes. No wonder so many people and companies are moving here.

From what I've been able to find out I won't owe any tax on my MKIV when I register it. Tax only has to be paid when I sell it. Saves me 6.25%

[BradCraig]

Charging a property tax or excise tax every year on something that's already bought and paid for, yikes! No thanks, I'll stay here in Texas. Our sales tax may be a little higher (except for CA) but we don't have a state income tax or any other these other taxes. No wonder so many people and companies are moving here.

From what I've been able to find out I won't owe any tax on my MKIV when I register it. Tax only has to be paid when I sell it. Saves me 6.25%

Fortunately, in NC we can register as antique vehicle and the value is listed as $500 so the tax is next to nothing.

[JeffP]

Charging a property tax or excise tax every year on something that's already bought and paid for, yikes! No thanks, I'll stay here in Texas. Our sales tax may be a little higher (except for CA) but we don't have a state income tax or any other these other taxes. No wonder so many people and companies are moving here.

From what I've been able to find out I won't owe any tax on my MKIV when I register it. Tax only has to be paid when I sell it. Saves me 6.25%

Yet somehow it all evens out... I'll gladly pay a couple hundred bucks a year extra for my car (my Mk4 like BradCraig mentioned is basically tax free when titled as an antique) vs the real estate taxes in Texas... The state average is 1.6% vs NC is .7%... so that extra $200 on my car, i'm saving $ 4500/yr on real estate taxes. don't get me wrong - I'm born and raised Texan (Corpus Christi) and would love to move back for a million other reasons, but no matter where you go.. there will always be taxes. CA is the obvious exception for being insane.

[Gizmosrcool]

I figured I might open up a nest on the subject. Some states have an annual property tax. I grew up in VA and they have one. Always hated it. Each state is different in the licensing, taxing, registration, and enforcement. Using a Montana registration may work or not work. Just depends on each individual situation.

Jeff. After i spend all the time in building the car, assemble from parts, seems kind of cheap. I cannot tell you why, but it just does not sound right. But I can always get over it.

My situation is that I live in Florida 7 to 9 months of the year and the rest in Maryland. Florida wants folks to register after 90 days and Maryland is less at 30 days. Unless one literally flip-flops between both states each year and changes registrations. How one does it and not happening. I do the best by keeping one car in Florida and registered there and another truck in Maryland and registered there. The Florida car is our SUV and goes back-and-forth. I never had a problem here in MD with FL plates. I am in the DC beltway area. A gazillion people. In FL. It’s Florida. lots of transient people. no one cares.

That said. I have time on my hands. Probably a year and a half. It will be interesting to see if anyone is able to register as a factory five replica sometime in the next year. If that is the path and it’s available I’m definitely doing that.

If not and the Montana registration is the way it is or similar then it’s an option. My thought is to set up an LLC and lease the to myself for a dollar a year and have full proper Florida insurance on the vehicle with my Florida address listed as the cars home. The LLC would also be named on the insurance covering all bases. This way it no different from any leased car. It only work for me if this was all upfront with the insurance company and they knew it all. Meaning they knew it was registered in Montana as an LLC, leased, and housed and driven in Florida with Florida insurance. If that would not be 100% that’s a dealbreaker. The risk is if FL cracks down on out-of-state cars and I really don’t see that happening. They would really irritate the snow bird community. :D Plus I live in a small chilling town.

Hopefully factory five gets it all sorted out in Florida and I can just register as usual.

Thx for all the comments. It’s what happens when I have a 10 month wait and two months to go.

Tom

[Jeff Kleiner]

Charging a property tax or excise tax every year on something that's already bought and paid for….

Uh, don’t you pay tax on your home? That would be a tax on something that is already bought and paid for, right? ;)

Jeff

[Mike.Bray]

Uh, don’t you pay tax on your home? That would be a tax on something that is already bought and paid for, right? ;)

Jeff

I knew you would bring that up. Down here the huge majority of our property tax is for schools so I guess I just accept that as contributing to our future. I guess paying property tax on a car, or a bedroom suite, just boggles my little brain. I still complain about the $75/year registration fee!

[MB750]

It will be interesting to see if anyone is able to register as a factory five replica sometime in the next year. If that is the path and it’s available I’m definitely doing that.

I'll be going down that road late this summer, depending on productivity in the build.



The risk is if FL cracks down on out-of-state cars and I really don’t see that happening. They would really irritate the snow bird community. :D Plus I live in a small chilling town.


https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=178113&d=1673737190

Seriously though, there's so many snowbirds down here no way would they ever make sense of who's on the level with their vehicle.

[ggunter]

Gizmo, if you think Fla. is lenient about out of state tags, then you should register your car in Md. with Historic tags. Couldn't be easier. This takes you out of emissions, and state inspection. I was done in an hour, and they have one tag for cars older then 50 years which the MKIV qualifies for. The person behind the counter saw 1965 replica on the COO and only charged $50 tax, which is the minimum, handed me my tags and I asked are we done? She said all done.....I should have taken the tags and run, but the little man inside my brain said, hold on hotrod, you know some auditor in six months is going to see there was no tax paid on the complete kit and come after you with interest and penalties. So, I told the person that she didn't charge me enough tax. Then she got an attitude because she had to do it all over again. I ended up paying $1700. on $28000 for the complete kit with goodies. You do have to make an appt with the state police at MVA, they only do this on Tuesdays. I made a trial run the week before to see what they wanted. The cop comes out and looks for stolen parts on your car. He wants a serial number or invoice number on the engine with a receipt, and of course the chassis has a COO. He is very familiar with Factory Five Cars, says he does about 25 a year. He couldn't be more helpful and a nice guy too. His name is John, the only one there that does this. Good Luck.

[ggunter]

Also, I made sure all the lights worked and wipers etc. He couldn't have cared less. Never looked at any of that. He was only looking for stolen parts.

[Gizmosrcool]

ggunter. That is a good idea. I have a 68 sport fury in Md and have antique plates on it. Super easy. I would love to.. but I am building in FL. We are weird reverse snow birders. Head down the end of January and stay sep/oct. This way we get the better weather Jan-May and the grandkids get out of school and we have more opportunity to do stuff with them. FL is our long term place. I need to think how to make FL work.

[Gizmosrcool]

I'll be going down that road late this summer, depending on productivity in the build.

Seriously though, there's so many snowbirds down here no way would they ever make sense of who's on the level with their vehicle.

Haha. That is how FL rolls. No one’s wants to mess with visitors, retirees, snow birders, or anyone making investments, spending money, and visiting the state. Otherwise no one will be here to pay for $6 bottles of water at attractions.

Looks like you may be a guinea pig candidate for trying to get a more normal title. I will be watching from the balcony and seeing how the show goes. Best of luck!

Tom

[MB750]

Haha. That is how FL rolls. No one’s wants to mess with visitors, retirees, snow birders, or anyone making investments, spending money, and visiting the state. Otherwise no one will be here to pay for $6 bottles of water at attractions.

Looks like you may be a guinea pig candidate for trying to get a more normal title. I will be watching from the balcony and seeing how the show goes. Best of luck!

Tom

And I will certainly make a thread about my experience here on the forum. It's probably going to be a few more months though. Once I have the body on and it's basically roadworthy (minus paint and bodywork) I'll be working on the title.

[Gizmosrcool]

To close the loop on this. I shot a note to the insurance agent that I plan to use on the car. They are well known collector car insurance company and have quite a few customers that register in Montana and it is routine. The policy can be in the LLC‘s name or individual and one just has to name the other as a named insured and authorized to drive. You need to tell them where the car is housed to be sure you have the appropriate coverage for that state and licensed there. Insurance is not a problem unless you’re trying to scam someone. Be honest, transparent, and you’re cool.

For my situation. The downside is FL cracking down on cars out of state after 90 days. Not likely. I hope MB750 finds a path forward.

Tom

[Ford & Jeep Fan]

Pretty much - many states have a personal property tax or whatever you want to call it. VA as mentioned is about 4% (theres a wierd scale) NC is a little better - maybe 2%. But then our sales tax at the register is lower than Texas' 8.25% too, but then we have state in come tax (~3%).

One way or another the man is going to get his cut.. each state just labels it different but its all TAX.

FYI Both Kentucky and West Virigina have it as well.

Ohio Does NOT have it.

[cob427sc]

I live in Massachusetts and the inspection process before the initial registering can be a big issue. I registered one FFR roadster and 2 hotrods in Vermont because I didn't have all the proper invoices for the pieces. My brother lives in Vermont, used his address, registered and titled the cars and brought them back to Mass. I was told by a MA state cop that as long as I drove out of state once every 30 days I was ok. After a couple of months I would toke the paperwork to the Mass Registry and swap for Mass registration and title. I recently had my 33HR and my 818 inspected here in Mass and someone must of changed their minds as it was an extremely easy process.

[marshallmosty]

Is the process of just re-registering your vehicle in your home state after getting the Montana LLC, title, and plates a difficult game?
For as far as Texas is concerned, there is quite a bit of back/forth for inspections, official weights, and several trips to/from the DMV. If this is the "easy" way around that, is there anything to worry about?
Would the LLC be able to "gift" the vehicle to the owner who then pays whatever fees are associated with it, registers it as a "Classic" (25 years or older in TX) and then get a clean TX title?

[gbranham]

Okay completely ignorant here, I guess just a dumb old Texan. What is an "annual vehicle tax"? In Texas we have an annual inspection which is about $25 I think and then an annual registration which on my personal cars & trucks averages about $75. That's it. Are you saying you guys are paying additional taxes and fees? Like property tax on a car?? I'd be getting the hell out of there! lol

Kansas, yes...big time! My 2024 Ram Limited costs me around $1500 annually in property tax. It reduces by about $100/yr as the vehicle ages, but yeah...it sucks.


But on the flipside, we have no emissions inspection, no annual inspection of any kind. When I registered my MkIII, it was a breeze. Just had to fill out a 'Specialty Constructed Vehicle" form, pay tax on the sales receipts I presented to accurately represent the cost of the build, and I was out of there. No wipers required, either!

[Mike.Bray]

But on the flipside, we have no emissions inspection, no annual inspection of any kind.

Annual inspections in Texas are being phased out and will be gone completely by the end of the year I believe:)

[MB750]

Is the process of just re-registering your vehicle in your home state after getting the Montana LLC, title, and plates a difficult game?
For as far as Texas is concerned, there is quite a bit of back/forth for inspections, official weights, and several trips to/from the DMV. If this is the "easy" way around that, is there anything to worry about?
Would the LLC be able to "gift" the vehicle to the owner who then pays whatever fees are associated with it, registers it as a "Classic" (25 years or older in TX) and then get a clean TX title?


I've certainly thought about this. The best research I could do online says transferring a title from an LLC to Private would entail considering the vehicle a business asset, and subjected to applicable taxes at time of transfer. BUT, I have no idea if the brain dead DMV employees would even notice, or care, or know the difference. I may ask, ya know, for a friend... :D

[Papa t]

I have created a LLC in Montana and have my Superlite SLC registered under the LLC.

[s_martin]

I am very familiar with registration in Montana, because I live there. We thank you for your tax dollars.

[MB750]

I am very familiar with registration in Montana, because I live there. We thank you for your tax dollars.

Hey man, think maybe I could borrow your home address to register my Roadster? ;)

Then it would be in my name, and easy to transfer to FL.

[Dgc333]

I live in Massachusetts and the inspection process before the initial registering can be a big issue. I registered one FFR roadster and 2 hotrods in Vermont because I didn't have all the proper invoices for the pieces. My brother lives in Vermont, used his address, registered and titled the cars and brought them back to Mass. I was told by a MA state cop that as long as I drove out of state once every 30 days I was ok. After a couple of months I would toke the paperwork to the Mass Registry and swap for Mass registration and title. I recently had my 33HR and my 818 inspected here in Mass and someone must of changed their minds as it was an extremely easy process.

The initial inspection process in Massachusetts is easy peazy now. I went through the registration process on my 33 in June. I had heard all the horror stories so I had every receipt I had spent money on with me but had been told not to overwhelm them. I presented them a folder with the application form, COO, the FF sales order, engine receipt, rear end receipt, tires receipt and wheels receipt (didn't have a receipt for the tranny). They were happy with those. The actual inspection consisted of the trooper looking out the door and asking if he could open the door without hitting the fender of the trailer. When I confirmed he could be walked out and applied the VIN sticker and gave me my paperwork back with the COO stamped with the VIN. All in all it took about 20 minutes.

The DMV was its typical pain in the *** but I got my plates.