Side pipe fit issues

[JohnK]

Hey all. Apologies for the long-winded post but I'd appreciate some input.

I'm in the middle of final assembly and have run into an issue that I could use the collective wisdom on. I'm test fitting the side pipes to see what wedges are needed before installing them for good. The drivers side pipe went on without issue, though it's angled inward and needs a wedge to straighten it out. Not a big deal. The passenger side pipe is another story. I'm having issues with both how close the side pipe is to the cutout edges, and with the side pipe flange touching the backside of the body and preventing the top bolt from being able to be installed. Here are some photos:

Driver side - good clearance and plenty of room for a wedge to be installed.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=177857&d=1673217232

Passenger side - I have maybe 1/16" clearance between body and pipe. Definitely too close as the engine vibrates when driving.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=177858&d=1673217232

But that's not the worst of it. The pipe flange is touching the body and there's no way to get that top bolt in

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=177856&d=1673217232

To make matters worse (if that's possible) the pipe is angled way out and will need a wedge (or two) to bring it parallel to the body. I can't see how a wedge would fit in there (let alone two wedges).

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=177855&d=1673217232


My first thoughts were to either move the body or the engine laterally to try to gain some clearance, but I can't see either of those happening. The coyote is just too tight and there's no room to move it sideways toward the drivers side. The body appears to be otherwise well centered (and is supposedly now in its final position), so trying to move it toward the passenger side to address this will likely create other issues.

So this leaves me with two options that I can think of:

1) enlarge the PS cutout to make room. I'm not really loving the idea of enlarging the opening on a painted body, and I think it would have to be opened up quite a bit to be able to fit a wedge. The end result would (IMO) also look terrible as the flange and wedge would be very visible in the cutout.

2) Modify or replace the header(s). The headers that are on there currently are GP Headers with catalytic converters. Here's a photo of them before I had them ceramic coated.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=177854&d=1673217232

Option 1: It seems to me that it might be possible to have the PS header shortened by some amount TBD (1/4"?) by grinding out the welds where the four tubes slip into the collector and then shortening the four tubes and re-welding (and re-coating). Pro: Probably less expensive than replacing both headers and only requires the removal and re-installation of the relatively easy passenger side header. Con: both sides would still need wedges to straighten the side pipes. The PS cutout would still likely need to be enlarged.

Option 2: Not sure if this is an option, but I could give Gas-N a call tomorrow to see if they can make me a set of custom headers that are both 1/4" - 1/2" shorter than stock. The ball flanges would allow me to align the pipes without the need for wedges. If needed, I could add a 1/8" or 1/4" spacer back in as needed to get the distances from the body correct. Pro: No wedges needed. The ball flange would also allow me to move the PS side pipe down and away from the body without having to enlarge the cutout in the body. Probably possible to get closer to an "ideal" fit with this option. Con: More expensive. PITA to remove/replace the DS header on a coyote.

I'm open to any and all suggestions. However, I will say that while I've read some posts about using the elephant ears to push the body out and make space, I'm not a huge fan of that approach. I'm concerned that this would create other stress issues and misalignments down the road, and still doesn't address the issue of the PS cutout being so close to the pipe.

[Papa]

Can you see if a spacer or two on the engine mount will fix the height difference?

[JohnK]

Can you see if a spacer or two on the engine mount will fix the height difference?

Can you elaborate? Here's the PS engine mount. It's already sitting pretty low in the frame. I could try removing the 1/4" spacer that FFR provided for the engine mount, which will drop it down, but I don't think that would address the clearance issue between flange and backside of body.


https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=152417&d=1629478844

[Papa]

I was thinking a washer between the mount at the block to get the engine to tilt slightly. A small amount of space at the mount will make a good difference at the body opening.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Sorry John, but what you're seeing isn't unusual. Not to name names ;) but I have found that the headers &/or sidepipes from the aftermarket rather than FFR are often problematic. This is why I ALWAYS mock up the pipes and modify the cutouts as necessary after all of the bodywork is done and before paint. Unfortunately in your case that ship already sailed... Adding a wedge on the driver's side to move the rear of the pipe away from the body will make body to pipe clearance tighter at the front of the cutout and widen the gap at the rear. On the passenger side adding wedges to bring the rear pipe in towards the body will close up the gap at the rear of the cutout and widen it at the front. As you said when you add wedges it moves the sidepipe flange outward which will exacerbate your issue on the passenger side. Papa Dave commented above and this was one of the things that I got into when I did his car (and some others as well)---the combination of aftermarket exhaust components and the wedges required to correct the alignment issue forced me to make the cutout larger than I would have liked so that the header/sidepipe flanges cleared the body but my hands were tied :( You can gain a little bit of room by using button head bolts rather than the deep socket head type. For enlarging the openings I use a 1 1/2" sanding drum on a pneumatic die grinder. Lacking one of those you can also use it in a drill. Put a couple of layers of blue tape on the body and use a steady hand.

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Gator-1-1-2-In-Drum-Kit-Mandrel-with-6-Refills-6-Pack-Drum-Sander-Kit/1260791

Good luck,
Jeff

[JohnK]

This is why I ALWAYS mock up the pipes and modify the cutouts as necessary after all of the bodywork is done and before paint. Unfortunately in your case that ship already sailed...

Yeah, well... I assumed this was done. You know what they say when you assume.

If you've seen similar situations in the past, I'd love to see any "after" photos you might have after enlarging the opening on the PS side and adding wedges. If the end result isn't as bad as I'm picturing in my head, I may go that route as it's likely the fastest and easiest. How difficult do you think it would be to touch up the edge of the cutout after enlarging it?

Any thoughts on replacing the header with a shorter one with a ball flange? It seems to me that this would likely result in the best fit in the existing cutouts without having to enlarge cutouts.

[Papa]

Yeah, well... I assumed this was done. You know what they say when you assume.

If you've seen similar situations in the past, I'd love to see any "after" photos you might have after enlarging the opening on the PS side and adding wedges. If the end result isn't as bad as I'm picturing in my head, I may go that route as it's likely the fastest and easiest. How difficult do you think it would be to touch up the edge of the cutout after enlarging it?

Any thoughts on replacing the header with a shorter one with a ball flange? It seems to me that this would likely result in the best fit in the existing cutouts without having to enlarge cutouts.

On my car, it was the driver's side that Jeff had to try to work with. Here is a picture of the finished car:

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=123263&d=1582751194

Since finishing the car, I have ditched the "aftermarket" headers and bought the FFR ball-swivel headers and they fit much better. I still need a wedge, but now on the passenger side. I have the Gas-N pipes on my car, and they definitely fit differently than the FFR pipes. Here is what the driver's side looks like with the FFR headers:

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=159347&d=1640742074

[JohnK]

That's helpful. Thank you.

[JohnK]

After doing a bit more forum searching, I came across this post (https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?42030-FactoryFive-header&p=482360&viewfull=1#post482360) from Georgie in another thread:

"Thank you for your comments about Gas-n sidepipes and headers. Please keep in mind that when you buy any Gas-n products we fully support you.
As a builder of a Mark II, Factory Five, Cobra back in 2003, and having responded to calls from customers. I knew there was an easier solution to aligning the sidepipes. The results is the new Gas-n header design that has been used and proven successful over the last two years; Gas-n headers use a swivel, double collector that allows you/us to adjust not only the angle but also the length. The very cool thing about this design is that we can adjust the length of the collector as needed and allow for the collector components to be changed with ease, many times eliminating the use of wedges. This is made possible because we design and hand fabricate all Gas-n products right here in our shop in the USA.
If you are installing Gas-n sidepipes with Factory 5 headers we have your back too. Please, if you have any concerns about fit and finish of Gas-n products contact us directly, I guarantee that you won’t be disappointed.
In the meantime, good luck with your build and all the very best to you and your family! Georgie"

(highlighting is mine)

Can anyone comment on the length adjustability on the newer Gas-N headers? How much adjustability is there?

I've also read some pretty favorable reviews on the newer FFR coyote headers with the ball flanges but they're not showing up in the parts catalog at the moment so they may be out of stock. I'll give both FFR and Georgie a call tomorrow to see what my options are.

[Papa]

The ball swivel has no length adjustment. Even with the FFR ball swivel headers, I needed a spacer (wedge with no taper) to move the header out some to clear the body. Unfortunately, no two of these cars are exactly the same. The FFR headers and possibly Georgie's similar headers are a great way to get up/down, left/right, and some angle at the flange adjustment.

[JohnK]

Thanks Dave. I'll give Georgie a call tomorrow to better understand what he means by length adjustment. Re-reading his post, I think he may have different length collectors available that can be swapped in as needed. A shorter collector on the PS, along with the ball swivel adjustability, may give me a solution that doesn't require body modification.

[Papa]

Thanks Dave. I'll give Georgie a call tomorrow to better understand what he means by length adjustment. Re-reading his post, I think he may have different length collectors available that can be swapped in as needed. A shorter collector on the PS, along with the ball swivel adjustability, may give me a solution that doesn't require body modification.

That makes sense. Good luck getting this sorted out. I know from experience what a pain it is to deal with removing and installing headers over and over again.

Dave

[Papa]

Just a side note for those with an old-school pushrod engine. Removing the valve covers will make access to the header bolts a lot easier!

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=166661&d=1652481879

[Jryasko]

Gen 3 Coyote in a Mk4. Had a similar situation on the PS as well as far as wrong angles on FFR headers. Length wasn't an issue, angles were and these were the ball headers. DS was perfect with cutout and length. After many calls and measurements, including to Mr Kleiner ( he had a friends car there with similar setup) determined the header was not welded together at the right angle originally. FFR sent me a replacement set of headers which after clamping both PS headers to a bench and measuring it was pretty obvious it was wrong. Best bet is to call Georgie and he will fix you up. He and I had spoke about mine problem and that was going to be my next step if FFR had not come through. Good Luck

[JohnK]

Just a side note for those with an old-school pushrod engine. Removing the valve covers will make access to the header bolts a lot easier!



Oh man, what I wouldn't give for that kind of access to the DS header bolts. Even on a lift, getting the DS coyote header out is the stuff of nightmares.

[JohnK]

Quick update: I spoke with Georgie this morning and he explained that in addition to the ball flange adjustability they can do quite a bit with how they fabricate collectors to address fit. They can build collectors longer or shorter, as well as offset them up/down/left/right. It'll be a little bit of a process, but I think in the end I'll end up with the best result going this path. I ordered a set of headers this morning, and when they arrive and I install them we'll assess fit and then determine what modifications to the collectors are needed and go from there.

[Ted G]

I just installed my headers and side pipes last week. Both are from Georgie at Gasn and I love them. The adjustability on the headers is awesome and I don't think I'll need any wedges, just maybe a spacer to bump them out a bit if needed.

177877 177878

[toadster]

looks like that's one more thing I need to watch for with my FFR coyote 4-to-1 catalytic headers as well...

[Russwood]

Man, I'm glad I saw this post. I've got my headers and pipes from Georgie, and so far have only installed the headers. I noticed how impossible the bolts are going to be on the DS, and I'm guessing my best bet will be to try to attach that side during final engine installation - hoping maybe I can mount them with the engine "hovering" before it's all the way down into place, but TBD.

For context, I ordered my headers and pipes 1/31/22 and they arrived 6/29/22. Georgie told me that the biggest reason for the delay was the polisher was backed up (I ordered the pipes as polished). I got an email on 6/17/22 that the headers were done, so I assume he waited to make those until the pipes were back from the polisher so they'd all ship together. By only ordering headers, it hopefully won't take quite so long. Well worth the wait IMO.

You won't be sorry you got them. They are solid and the ball flange collector is nice. I had a moment of terror when I went to mock them up because the O2 sensors were facing down, then (duh) I realized that all I had to do was loosen the clamp and rotate. My son calls that "having a smooth brain moment". Who hasn't had one of those? LOL

Good luck. Stinks to be that close to only find something like this.

[JohnK]

The DS header on a coyote is definitely tight. We installed it as you said, with the engine hovering during install. That said, I did go back and re-torque all the bolts after a few heat cycles and was able to get a wrench on every bolt using some combination of long and short Allen sockets, extensions, swivels and whatnot so installing and removing the DS header with the engine in place is doable. Definitely easier on a lift.

When I spoke with Georgie, he said they'd be making another batch of coyote headers in 2-3 weeks. I ordered them in the brushed finish for now, so I can avoid the polishing delay. Once we get the proper collectors installed and fit dialed in, I may send them off for ceramic coat (or I may get lazy and leave them as-is).

This is what happens when I create a self-imposed deadlines in my head. Jan 29 is the anniversary of my kit delivery so I was hoping to have the car put together and ready to begin the registration process by then. That would be a nice milestone. Alas, not meant to be but it really doesn't matter. It's been raining like crazy around here so it's not like I'm missing out on driving days. It'll be done when it's done.

[GTBradley]

The DS header on a coyote is definitely tight. We installed it as you said, with the engine hovering during install. That said, I did go back and re-torque all the bolts after a few heat cycles and was able to get a wrench on every bolt using some combination of long and short Allen sockets, extensions, swivels and whatnot so installing and removing the DS header with the engine in place is doable. Definitely easier on a lift.

When I spoke with Georgie, he said they'd be making another batch of coyote headers in 2-3 weeks. I ordered them in the brushed finish for now, so I can avoid the polishing delay. Once we get the proper collectors installed and fit dialed in, I may send them off for ceramic coat (or I may get lazy and leave them as-is).

This is what happens when I create a self-imposed deadlines in my head. Jan 29 is the anniversary of my kit delivery so I was hoping to have the car put together and ready to begin the registration process by then. That would be a nice milestone. Alas, not meant to be but it really doesn't matter. It's been raining like crazy around here so it's not like I'm missing out on driving days. It'll be done when it's done.
Have you given any thought to modifying the driver's foot box wall that faces the header? l'm looking into it to give myself more legroom and I'll probably make the panel removable for future access. I'm also going to upgrade to some header cats at the same time and having that panel out will be very helpful.

Personally, I wouldn't worry about the finish. Stainless is a great material on its own for corrosion resistance, but the headers will become tinted over time. With the Coyote it's hard to see them from above and in my case I wrapped them anyway. So, did you go with gasN over FFR headers for any particular reason?

[JohnK]

That's an interesting thought on the footbox mod. I could definitely use some additional room in the footbox around the accelerator pedal. It's already carpeted so I'd need to remove carpet and re-do it, so probably not going to do it in the short term but definitely something to keep in mind.

Agreed on the headers not being very visible. I ceramic coated the ones that are in there now as they have cats and I wanted to minimize the amount of heat. I'll see if heat is an issue down the road as I decide whether to ceramic coat the new ones. I chose the GasN headers for two reasons: First, it looks like the FFR coyote headers are out of stock. I didn't call to confirm but they're not currently listed on the website (the 302 and 351 headers are shown). Secondly, and more significantly, Georgie offers a level of custom fit that's just not available with the FFR headers. They both have ball flanges which give some level of adjustability but Georgie's ability to change collector lengths and build offset into the collectors is the level of adjustability I need to avoid having to modify the body at this point, and that's not available with the FFR headers.

[GTBradley]

That's an interesting thought on the footbox mod. I could definitely use some additional room in the footbox around the accelerator pedal. It's already carpeted so I'd need to remove carpet and re-do it, so probably not going to do it in the short term but definitely something to keep in mind.

Agreed on the headers not being very visible. I ceramic coated the ones that are in there now as they have cats and I wanted to minimize the amount of heat. I'll see if heat is an issue down the road as I decide whether to ceramic coat the new ones. I chose the GasN headers for two reasons: First, it looks like the FFR coyote headers are out of stock. I didn't call to confirm but they're not currently listed on the website (the 302 and 351 headers are shown). Secondly, and more significantly, Georgie offers a level of custom fit that's just not available with the FFR headers. They both have ball flanges which give some level of adjustability but Georgie's ability to change collector lengths and build offset into the collectors is the level of adjustability I need to avoid having to modify the body at this point, and that's not available with the FFR headers.
Thanks, just double-checking as I'm in purchase mode now. Sorry if I missed it, it but it sounds like you're dropping the cat for the ball flange - I don't think there is an option for both.

[JohnK]

Yes, the cats were nice to have but I'll happily trade them for the added adjustability of the Gas-N headers to avoid having to cut into a painted body.

[toadster]

I'm a bit curious, my impression was that the sidepipes had to be fitted before paint... did that not happen? seems like a miss IMHO

[Jeff Kleiner]

I'm a bit curious, my impression was that the sidepipes had to be fitted before paint... did that not happen? seems like a miss IMHO

I alwys do sidepipe mockup and cutout shaping after the body is final fitted and all bodywork is complete...but that's me...obviously not everyone does it that way. If the body is being done without the actual chassis or being done on a "mule" it seems to me that it would be kind of a crapshoot IMHO.

Jeff

[JohnK]

I will keep this brief, as I don't intend or want for this to turn into bashing since the body and paint were done by a respected member of the community (easy enough to figure out who if you look in my build thread). I was apprehensive about my ability to get the body in its final position accurately, so I did not do the final body fitting or any final fitting of side pipes, etc. prior to delivering the body and chassis for body and paint. The understanding was that once the body was fitted on my chassis, all the cutouts would be finalized. Unfortunately, the quality of the cutout prep on the entire job is poor. The roll bar cutouts are so far off that half the bolts for roll bar trim rings are not in fiberglass. The side vent cutouts are oddly shaped. The side pipe cutouts clearly are not correct. One of the windshield trim plate screws barely catches any fiberglass. I could go on, but the point is made. The bodywork and paintwork are beautiful but the final size/shape/position of all the body cutouts is, frankly, poor.

All that said, it's my car so I take the blame. I should have gotten myself comfortable with body fitment and checked and finalized all these things myself. Sometimes we trust the pros to do a better job than we can. Often that works out, sometimes it does not. Moral of the story - if you want something done a certain way, do it yourself.

[egchewy79]

that's too bad to hear, especially from a generally well esteemed paint/body guy. 99% of this stuff will only be seen by you if it's any consolation. car/paint looks stunning from my point of view. you've done a very nice job w/ the build.

[Papa]

Hey, John. I just noticed the area your in and thought I'd chime in with the fact that I grew up in Lodi, so very familiar with that part of California.

Dave

[JohnK]

Hey, John. I just noticed the area your in and thought I'd chime in with the fact that I grew up in Lodi, so very familiar with that part of California.

Dave

Hey Dave. My wife's family lives in Fresno and Clovis, and we have family in Lodi, Rocklin and Loomis so we're pretty familiar with the Central Valley. Every time I hear Lodi, I can't help but think of the Creedence song. :)

[Papa]

Hey Dave. My wife's family lives in Fresno and Clovis, and we have family in Lodi, Rocklin and Loomis so we're pretty familiar with the Central Valley. Every time I hear Lodi, I can't help but think of the Creedence song. :)

Most of my family have moved out of California, but my sister lives in Live Oak, just north of Yuba City.

[emac]

Thats too bad, but everything can be fixed. IMO, if the little details really bother you, go back and fix them or else you will always focus on those flaws. Even if no one else does. You dont have to do it now, let it sink in for a while and enjoy it.

When people ask if I built it, I tell them I built it twice. Once in red gelcoat, then again in green! I cant imagine fitting the window frame for the first time with fresh paint. Especially with my lack of patience.

[brewha]

I’m in Papa’s camp…. I would loosen every bolt on the front engine mounts and the bolts on the rear mount also. There is play in the mounts to get an engine center correctly. Front engine mounts could balance the height of each header. Try adding a 1/8 shim to your good side header engine mount and you could gain a 1/4 inch on the bad side. Rear engine mount shifting left or right a 1/8 of an inch could correct the bad side-pipe fit and pull it back in closer to the body. I would not torque down the motor mounts until I’m sure motor is in the car correctly. I hope you find a solution that doesn’t hurt you wallet too bad…..

[Its Bruce]

I just finished fitting Georgie's Frankenstein header jigs for him to provide me perfectly fitting 1-7/8" LS headers. Not sure if that's a solution for you.

178132178133

And FWIW, I live in Texas but was born in Walnut Creek and my parents grew up in Yuba City.

[JohnK]

That's pretty cool to see! Very creative approach.

[maclonchas]

Papa,
Where did you get the Cobra heat shields for the pipes?

Thanks

Bill

[Papa]

Papa,
Where did you get the Cobra heat shields for the pipes?

Thanks

Bill


Bill,

I got them here: https://steelshields.com/cobra

Dave

[Danomatic]

John, I had the same problem fitting the Gas-N pipes. I also have a coyote. My solution was make the cutout on the body larger on passenger side. The second thing was I had to get flange wedges and gaskets from Breeze. It took two 1-1/2" flange wedges on the drivers side and only one 1-1/2" on the passenger side. The last thing I did was loosen the transmission mount and slid the transmission towards the driver side about 3/8-1/2" I was skeptical because the coyote is so tight on the drivers side but I was able to slide it over just enough to get everything lined up. I'm pretty happy how it turned out. At first it seemed pretty discouraging though. One thing I forgot to mention was I had to also get longer flange bolts too.

d