Spindle Problems

[4.6 litre]

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Attached are two photos of my spindle hubs. In one photo, a part of the first thread of the spindle has broken off. To thread the hub nut back on this spindle I need to apply 50 ft. lbs. of torque. The second photo shows my other spindle with the hub nut on the spindle and as you can see the first part of the spindle thread has begun to unwind.

Q1) is the first spindle safe to use with applying the 50 ft. lbs of torque? And if not,

Q2) what are your recommendations for fixing this problem?

Thanks for your advice in advance?

Damien

[Papa]

I would say if the nuts are fully seated against the hub and torqued to the 250-pound spec, you are probably fine. Be sure to check them frequently to ensure they aren't backing off after you start driving the car. My concern would be getting them off at some point. If you ever do get them off, I would question reusing the spindles without repairing the threads and would recommend new nuts.

A piece of advice to all builders... if something doesn't feel right, stop and reevaluate before forcing it.

Edit: The fact that you had a problem on both sides might indicate a manufacturing defect on either the spindles or the nuts.

[4.6 litre]

Below are photos of the spindle hub nuts. These nuts may have been the cause of spindle thread deformation. Which do you think caused the deformation, the spindle or the the spindle hub nuts?

I think I have my work cutout for me. Do I buy new hub nuts first and see if the problem is resolved and then if not buy new spindles?

Thanks

Damien





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[MB750]

I'd like to add to this. Recently I put my spindles on, along with the accompanying hub. I know there's loctite on the inside of each hub nut, but I could only hand turn it down about 3/4 of a turn. The loctite didn't start until about 3 full turns down from the start of the threads. The first full turn took over 100 ft-lbs to even get it to spin (again, not even into the loctite yet), and over 150 ft-lbs for each accompanying turn until seated. I got tired of using a breaker bar to install the hub nut so I just used my impact at WFO. At seat I got the 250 ft-lbs, but I'll be damned if that nut didn't feel like an interference thread pattern rather than a normal one with loctite.

Now that someone else has had an issue I'm guessing we have a manufacturing issue. Also worth noting, the hub nuts were initially part of my POL, but ended up being tossed into a latter box and shipped with the rest. That makes me think they were out and ended up getting stock before my kit shipped and tossed them in.

The last thing I said after I got them installed is that I don't envy whoever has to remove those nuts.

[Norm B]

There is a serious parts mismatch going on here. The nuts are deformed lock nuts and are one time use only. You can see the crimp mark on opposite sides of the outside edge of the nut. The nut should spin freely onto the spindle until the threads on the spindle reach this point. The nuts are supposed to be softer than the spindle so that the threads on the nut conform to the spindle not the other way around.
I think there is a mismatch in thread pitch also in play here. I hope I am wrong but, if that is the case your spindles are ruined.

HTH

Norm

[4.6 litre]

I like Papa's response. I've also sent a PM to both Edwardb and Mike Forte requesting comments. Hopefully I'll get their comments soon. I just need a game plan to solve the problem.

Damien

[Jeff Kleiner]

Are these donor spindles or FFR? If they’re from a donor aMustang have the nuts been used previously?

Jeff

[Norm B]

I have taken a very close look at your last picture and would not drive the car like that. You have no idea how much of the 250 ft lbs of torque went into clamping the hub onto the spindle versus overcoming the thread issue. There is also no way to know how many good threads are left on the spindle. It is a parts mismatch and you should be able to get replacements at no cost to you.

Norm

[Norm B]

Are these donor spindles or FFR? If they’re from a donor aMustang have the nuts been used previously?

Jeff


Jeff take a look at the last picture in the initial post. You can see some of the threads have been completely stripped off the spindle.

Norm

[MB750]

Are these Roadster spindles special to FFR kits or are they some big OEM part?

[Jeff Kleiner]

Jeff take a look at the last picture in the initial post. You can see some of the threads have been completely stripped off the spindle.

Norm

Oh , I see it Norm (and it ain’t good) but am curious whether he’s dealing with used Mustang spindles and nuts or new FFR parts.

Jeff

[Jeff Kleiner]

Are these Roadster spindles special to FFR kits or are they some big OEM part?

The Factory Five spindles are proprietary however although the geometry is different spindles can also be used from SN95 Mustang donors.

Jeff

[4.6 litre]

I would say if the nuts are fully seated against the hub and torqued to the 250-pound spec, you are probably fine. Be sure to check them frequently to ensure they aren't backing off after you start driving the car. My concern would be getting them off at some point. If you ever do get them off, I would question reusing the spindles without repairing the threads and would recommend new nuts.

A piece of advice to all builders... if something doesn't feel right, stop and reevaluate before forcing it.

Edit: The fact that you had a problem on both sides might indicate a manufacturing defect on either the spindles or the nuts.

Norm,

Let me provide some addition information. I'm still building my car. It's out of warranty. Originally I installed the spindle hub nuts on the spindle and tightened them up. I probably torqued them to about 100 ft. lbs. just to make them snug. Some time has passed since then and recently I tried to remove the nuts. It took about 50 ft. lbs. When the nut was removed I saw the starting thread on the spindle was cut off. Since the nuts were not fully torqued to 250 ft. lbs. I assumed there would be no damage to the spindle thread. I guess I was wrong.

Do you think that once the nut is torqued onto the spindles (even if it's less than the recommended 250 ft. lbs.), it can be damaged when removing the spindle nut?

I would like your opinion since I don't want this to happen again? Buying new spindles and nuts is expensive enough but repeating the same mistake again is a disaster.

Thanks,

Damien

[4.6 litre]

Jeff,

Original FFR spindles and nuts.

[4.6 litre]

Norm,

Still building the roadster. It's taken a long time.

[Norm B]

Once the nut has been tightened past the deformed area it should not be removed and reused. It no longer has the ability to lock properly.
When you initially installed the nut did it spin on freely until the deformed area came in contact with the threads?
You should not be able to damage the threads on the spindle by removing the nut. The spindle is supposed to be harder than the nut.

Norm

[CraigS]

I would remove the nuts and throw them away. They are a one time use nut. Unfortunately they usually damage the threads when removed. But they only damage the threads out beyond the threads that are actually being engaged. Now you can see the threads on the spindle that the nuts currently hide. Are they OK? If the threads look like your first picture they are OK. Unfortunately a lot of these deformed type nuts exist. They work great on the assembly line where they are tightened w/ a calibrated tool and don't need any additional work beyond that. The few times that I am forced to use them I often grind out the inside where they are deformed so they thread on like a standard nut. Then, after they are torqued, I deform them myself w/ a punch and huge hammer. I have also used double standard nuts maybe w/ loctite on the outer one. If you can find out the thread size, you can get nuts from McMaster-Carr.

[4.6 litre]

I would remove the nuts and throw them away. They are a one time use nut. Unfortunately they usually damage the threads when removed. But they only damage the threads out beyond the threads that are actually being engaged. Now you can see the threads on the spindle that the nuts currently hide. Are they OK? If the threads look like your first picture they are OK. Unfortunately a lot of these deformed type nuts exist. They work great on the assembly line where they are tightened w/ a calibrated tool and don't need any additional work beyond that. The few times that I am forced to use them I often grind out the inside where they are deformed so they thread on like a standard nut. Then, after they are torqued, I deform them myself w/ a punch and huge hammer. I have also used double standard nuts maybe w/ loctite on the outer one. If you can find out the thread size, you can get nuts from McMaster-Carr.

Norm B/Craig S

The hub nut may have been initially put on with 100 ft. lbs. of torque. I have not completed the build yet so they have been on for a couple of years. I thought they would be easy to remove, not the case. After initially loosening the nut I needed 50 ft. lbs. of torque to fully unwind the nut. It was then I discovered the spindle thread was damaged.

The following is the response I got by private mail from Edwardb, “. Have the same question as Jeff Kleiner. Mustang spindles or the FF 2-piece spindles? I've used the 2-piece spindles multiple times and never had any problem like that. I agree with other posters there appears to be some type of thread mis-match.”

Forgetting for now what caused the problem do you think I should buy new spindles and nuts?

[rich grsc]

I don't see enough of the spindle threads showing damage to be concerned. I only see the first outer thread with superficial damage, the area where the nut crimp made contact. No need to replace the spindle, only the nuts. Use some Blue thread lock if it makes you feel better. I DO NOT like that type of lock nut, they will almost always cause some minor thread defamation. I would bet that the nuts where poorly made, over crimped on the edge.

[4.6 litre]

The Factory Five spindles are proprietary however although the geometry is different spindles can also be used from SN95 Mustang donors.

Jeff

Who would I contact for donor parts?

Thanks,

Damien

[Jeff Kleiner]

Who would I contact for donor parts?

Thanks,

Damien

Salvage yards...but the Factory Five spindles are preferred and have far superior geometry.

Jeff

[4.6 litre]

Salvage yards...but the Factory Five spindles are preferred and have far superior geometry.

Jeff

Thanks Jeff,

I'm getting a quote from FFR for a new spindle package. I think that is my only alternative.

I want to thank everyone on the Forum for their comments. Never imaged this could have happened.

Damien

[Norm B]

Damien, the spindle in the first picture in your original post is fine. I would take a file and taper the end of the broken off thread to prevent that sharp edge from acting like a tap on the nut. Make sure the nut can thread on easily until the deformed area.
The spindle in the second picture is the one that worries me. I would remove as much of the loose and broken threads from the end of the spindle as possible then take the nut off. Carefully inspect the remaining threads. You will want to see about 3/4 inch of undamaged threads out from the hub bearing.
I believe the spindle nuts are the same as used on a 94-2004 Mustang and are available from RockAuto for about $5 each. Hopefully one of the experts can confirm that.

Good Luck

Norm

[Jeff Kleiner]

…
I believe the spindle nuts are the same as used on a 94-2004 Mustang and are available from RockAuto for about $5 each. Hopefully one of the experts can confirm that.


Correct. Available at NAPA and others.

Jeff

[4.6 litre]

Damien, the spindle in the first picture in your original post is fine. I would take a file and taper the end of the broken off thread to prevent that sharp edge from acting like a tap on the nut. Make sure the nut can thread on easily until the deformed area.
The spindle in the second picture is the one that worries me. I would remove as much of the loose and broken threads from the end of the spindle as possible then take the nut off. Carefully inspect the remaining threads. You will want to see about 3/4 inch of undamaged threads out from the hub bearing.
I believe the spindle nuts are the same as used on a 94-2004 Mustang and are available from RockAuto for about $5 each. Hopefully one of the experts can confirm that.

Good Luck

Norm

Jeff/Norm,

Attached is a photo of the second spindle with the nut removed. Notice that the beginning of the spindle thread is unraveling but not broken off yet. It looks like a whisker. This was the same thing that happened on the first spindle before whisker broke off. This leads me to believe that the spindle nuts are the problem. Do you think this second spindle is okay to use.
Damien




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[rich grsc]

If you're seriously going to replace those, send them to me. I have no fear about using them

[Norm B]

That spindle is good too! Clean the threads to remove any loose metal. Make sure the nut can spin on freely until the deformed area. When you are sure that you are assembling them for the last time, torque the nuts to 250 and forget about them.

Norm

[Jeff Kleiner]

Pull the hubs, clean the threads then run a new, regular, non-distorted M24-2.0 nut a couple of rounds over the full length of the threads. After you do that assemble it using a LUBRICATED new distorted nut, running it all the way to final torque.

Good luck,
Jeff

[CraigS]

Cool, Jeff gave you the thread size for the nuts. But I disagree w/ him on using new distorted nuts. See what distorted nuts have done already? As I mentioned above these are designed specifically for fast assembly line work. Maybe you will never need to remove the hub, but if you do, the damage will be greater than it is now and then you may need new spindles. I would buy;
- two of https://www.mcmaster.com/4391n124/
- two of https://www.mcmaster.com/90364A112/
Install and torque the thick one first and then the thin one but torque to just 80-100#
Another option is use a nylock nut.
https://www.mcmaster.com/94645A123/

[rich grsc]

I agree with Craig, those distorted nuts cause issues every time you use them.

[Norm B]

Craig, the nuts you recommended don't have the inner flange on them like the OEM ones do. This flange captures the whole inner race of the hub bearing. Not too sure how important that is but, it is something to consider.
The chances of having to take them apart again are pretty small. The hubs normally last to the 100k miles mark on a Mustang. If you want to make the OEM ones more easily removable and reusable, just grind out the deformed area on each side of the nut with a sanding drum on a Dremel and use Loctite when installing.

Norm

[J R Jones]

Cool, Jeff gave you the thread size for the nuts. But I disagree w/ him on using new distorted nuts. See what distorted nuts have done already? As I mentioned above these are designed specifically for fast assembly line work. Maybe you will never need to remove the hub, but if you do, the damage will be greater than it is now and then you may need new spindles. I would buy;
- two of https://www.mcmaster.com/4391n124/
- two of https://www.mcmaster.com/90364A112/
Install and torque the thick one first and then the thin one but torque to just 80-100#
Another option is use a nylock nut.
https://www.mcmaster.com/94645A123/

It should come as no surprise that there is a specific procedure for torquing jamb nuts:
https://www.boltscience.com/pages/twonuts.htm

jim

[4.6 litre]

That spindle is good too! Clean the threads to remove any loose metal. Make sure the nut can spin on freely until the deformed area. When you are sure that you are assembling them for the last time, torque the nuts to 250 and forget about them.

Norm

Norm,

I purchased new Dorman 615098 spindle nuts. I tried to file down the broken off whisker on the first spindle thread. The new nut did not slide smoothly onto the spindle. It still will require force to screw the nut. Would it be practical to use a M24-2.0 die and rethread the first 2 or 3 threads on the spindle or will I have to remove the hub in order to correct the problem.

Thanks,

Damien

[Norm B]

Damien

Recommend you follow Jeff’s instructions in post 28 first. Looking at the thread damage a die should not be necessary.

Norm

[4.6 litre]

Damien

Recommend you follow Jeff’s instructions in post 28 first. Looking at the thread damage a die should not be necessary.

Norm

Norm,

Sorry for the following elementary questions but I want to do this right:

1) What’s a good thread lubricant and what should be used to clean the spindles?

2) Every nut and bolt associated with the hub, spindle, and caliper has been torqued to specification. Can this hardware be reused or do I need to buy new hardware?


Thanks for your patience,

Damien

[Norm B]

Damien, no problem

1) I would use a good anti seize compound. It is specifically designed to prevent galling. If someone has a better suggestion hopefully they respond.

2) All other fasteners are reusable.


Norm

[4.6 litre]

Damien, no problem

1) I would use a good anti seize compound. It is specifically designed to prevent galling. If someone has a better suggestion hopefully they respond.

2) All other fasteners are reusable.


Norm

Norm,

Appreciate your advice.

Damien