Another Gen 3 Coyote question

[Tbev]

So I started my Gen 3 Coyote for the second time today. First start, a couple of days ago, I ran it for about two minutes and got concerned because the oil pressure gauge was pegged at 100. I have since learned, thanks to you guys, that this is normal at start up for a coyote. First start, I also had some oil burn off coming out of the pipes for about 30 to 45 seconds. I figured this may be normal and wasn't too concerned. It happened again today. A lot of oil smoke out of the exhaust for approximately 30 to 45 seconds and then it stops. Now I'm concerned. Where is this coming from and is it normal? I ran it long enough for the oil pressure gauge to go down and the fan to kick on. I believe I need to bleed the air out of the coolant system as the water temp never went up and the radiator hoses never got hot. I added more antifreeze and will bleed it at next start. Any thoughts on the burning oil?
Thank you!

[michael everson]

Are you sure it’s oil? Maybe residue in the header or side pipe? I had an older kit
I finished that smoked like crazy after it warmed up. Turned out a mouse moved in to the side
Pipe at some point.
Mike.

[Tbev]

Are you sure it’s oil? Maybe residue in the header or side pipe? I had an older kit
I finished that smoked like crazy after it warmed up. Turned out a mouse moved in to the side
Pipe at some point.
Mike.

Thanks Mike,
It definitely smells like oil. On the first start I had thought it might be oil residue on the inside of the side pipes. I've never read of anyone having the same problem, but most people seem to use the FFR pipes or the Gas N pipes. I am using the Boig Quiet Pipes. So I thought maybe they do something different in their manufacture process that leaves oil residue. When I saw smoke on the second start up that theory no longer seemed to be valid as I figured any residual oil would of burned off during the first start. I sent Ford Performance Tech support an email but don't expect to hear back until later next week. Thanks for the reply.

[michael everson]

I would keep running it and keep an eye on the pressure and temp. Also look for coolant in the oil and oil in the coolant.
Never heard of one of these crate engines having any issues.
Mike

[Tbev]

I would keep running it and keep an eye on the pressure and temp. Also look for coolant in the oil and oil in the coolant.
Never heard of one of these crate engines having any issues.
Mike

Thanks again Mike,
I have been keeping an eye on the fluids and nothing discolored at this point. Pressure starts off at 100 but drops down once warm. It bounces around when I hit the throttle but I believe that is normal. I'm not sure about the temp as I believe I have to get some air out of the system. The fan kicked on when the computer instructed it to and I shut it down a minute or so after that as I know the cooling system wasn't functioning properly. I will run it again in a couple of days when its not 10 degrees outside and see if it happens again. I appreciate the help and Merry Christmas!
Tony

[GTBradley]

Generally, blue smoke is oil and white smoke is coolant. In the old days oil smoke on a rebuilt engine was normal until the rings got settled in, but on a Coyote it’s unusual. It may still be that the rings are having trouble seating if there was any corrosion/foreign material on the cylinder walls.

Give the water temp some time, it does not come up very fast - I think maybe 10 minutes or so.

[Tbev]

Generally, blue smoke is oil and white smoke is coolant. In the old days oil smoke on a rebuilt engine was normal until the rings got settled in, but on a Coyote it’s unusual. It may still be that the rings are having trouble seating if there was any corrosion/foreign material on the cylinder walls.

Give the water temp some time, it does not come up very fast - I think maybe 10 minutes or so.

Thank you, I feel like this is either nothing and it will just go away or it's a pretty big problem and right now I'm not sure which it is. Pretty scary.

[danmas]

Thanks Mike,
...I am using the Boig Quiet Pipes. ...

I can't help you with your issue and I hope you resolve it quickly and painlessly. That being said, thanks for mentioning these. I am really sensitive to noise being an former field artillery officer and these look like they are a must for me. I have added them to my BOM. Thank you!

[Tbev]

I can't help you with your issue and I hope you resolve it quickly and painlessly. That being said, thanks for mentioning these. I am really sensitive to noise being an former field artillery officer and these look like they are a must for me. I have added them to my BOM. Thank you!

Thank you. I highly recommend them. I can tell you that they fit about as perfect as you could ever hope for. I needed no shims and they are straight and level. The sound at idle is not loud at all in my experience with two starts. I too am very sensitive to loud noises and suffer from tinnitus (ringing in the ear). No need to make my condition worse with loud pipes. Thank you for your service btw!

[GTBradley]

Thank you, I feel like this is either nothing and it will just go away or it's a pretty big problem and right now I'm not sure which it is. Pretty scary.
I’m betting you don’t need to worry. The two ways I know that oil gets in a cylinder is past the valve guides, which is unlikely in a new engine, or past the rings, more likely in a new engine. And if you really have a serious problem the crate engine comes with a warranty.

[Alan_C]

When I built my MK4, I had a similar experience. I used a 2004 Mach 1 donor 4.6L DOHC engine with 38K miles. It was the predecessor to the Coyote. The completed chassis had very few miles on the road and most of the engine runs were short not letting the exhaust heat up and burn off the moisture build up. I brought the chassis down to get the painted body installed and there was a bit of liquid blown out on the ground. The painter did the sniff test and declared it was coolant and that I likely had a blown head gasket. I listened to the concern, but was not about to tear the engine down until I had some real miles on the car. Once the car was on the road and through several heat cycles, no more moisture from the right side side pipe. The engine was fine and I was told that the heat cycling likely sealed up the issue, if there ever was one. Don't panic just yet, get the car put together and get some miles on it before you are convinced you have an issue.

[FFinisher]

The only Coyote crate engine I had that smoked was way overfilled with oil. Seems obvious, but make sure it's not overfull.

[Tbev]

The only Coyote crate engine I had that smoked was way overfilled with oil. Seems obvious, but make sure it's not overfull.

This is another one of my concerns. The engine came from Mike Forte with 8 quarts of break in oil. I added the 8 quarts and it barely registered on the dipstick. I added two more quarts and its just over the bottom indicator mark on the dipstick. I called Mike and he seemed surprised that I needed two more quarts but told me that it should register between the two indicator marks. So I guess I could have two extra quarts in there. I'm not sure if I should run it as is or remove some oil and run it with 8 quarts and hope it's not running with low oil.

[edwardb]

Mike could be onto something there. A little bit of oil in the exhaust is normal at startup as it burns off assembly lube, potentially oil in the headers from mfg, etc. But typically, in my experience, goes away after several minutes and a run to temperature. I'd be very surprised if something is wrong with the engine itself. Ford has the mfg of those pretty buttoned down. As I mentioned to you in a previous thread, my Gen 3 Coyote with the same pan as your shows full at just under 9-1/2 quarts and I've run it that way for three seasons now. Rock solid. I don't know how close the oil level in the pan is to the crank. The engine does have a windage tray. But oil past that level could certainly be splashed around by the crank and get up into the combustion. You're not going to hurt the engine by having less oil in it, e.g. in the 9 to 9-1/2 quart range. As long as you have solid oil pressure which I'm sure you will. Would be an easy check to drain it back some. Can't explain the difference in the dip stick compared to mine. There was an issue several years ago with the Coyote dipstick interfering with the Moroso pan. But that's been long fixed. Unless you have one that's really old stock. Mike Forte was instrumental in getting that fixed. So I doubt that's the case with yours.

[Tbev]

Mike could be onto something there. A little bit of oil in the exhaust is normal at startup as it burns off assembly lube, potentially oil in the headers from mfg, etc. But typically, in my experience, goes away after several minutes and a run to temperature. I'd be very surprised if something is wrong with the engine itself. Ford has the mfg of those pretty buttoned down. As I mentioned to you in a previous thread, my Gen 3 Coyote with the same pan as your shows full at just under 9-1/2 quarts and I've run it that way for three seasons now. Rock solid. I don't know how close the oil level in the pan is to the crank. The engine does have a windage tray. But oil past that level could certainly be splashed around by the crank and get up into the combustion. You're not going to hurt the engine by having less oil in it, e.g. in the 9 to 9-1/2 quart range. As long as you have solid oil pressure which I'm sure you will. Would be an easy check to drain it back some. Can't explain the difference in the dip stick compared to mine. There was an issue several years ago with the Coyote dipstick interfering with the Moroso pan. But that's been long fixed. Unless you have one that's really old stock. Mike Forte was instrumental in getting that fixed. So I doubt that's the case with yours.

Thank you. I'm going to give it another try on a day that is a little warmer outside. If it happens again then I will try draining a little oil out and try again. My oil pressure starts off at 100 but drops down once it's warmed up, so I don't see any issues there.

[Jryasko]

On your coolant issue. You should have about 4 gal in the system. If the gauge isn't reading, could be no coolant on it not good. If you have used the degas tank of some sort ie. Mustang plastic or Moroso, remove the small hose going to the radiator with the check valve in it and fill the system until coolant comes out of radiator. Easiest way to bleed it out. Start run up to temp watching temp, let it cool off check it again. Do this a couple of times and you should be good. Key thing is about 4 gal total should be used.

[Windsor]

Two minutes idling, or even higher RPMs but with no load (your first start) is not enough time to really burn off real residual oil on the exhaust bits.

Smelling much the same on the second run is expected, IMO.

[Tbev]

Two minutes idling, or even higher RPMs but with no load (your first start) is not enough time to really burn off real residual oil on the exhaust bits.

Smelling much the same on the second run is expected, IMO.

Thank you. I am going to let it run a little longer today. If I get the oil smoke again today then I will try draining a little oil out like Paul (edwardb) suggested above.
This is was Ford Performance Technical Support response to my email to them regarding my issue: "When a EFI engine is cold started it dumps extra fuel in to richen it up.
I commonly see this on short run cold starts."
Doesn't make sense to me. I've been driving cars with EFI engines for decades and have never seen one burn oil like this at start up, unless there was a pretty big problem. I'm still hopeful that it is not a big problem and it will either work itself out or I find it is overfilled with oil, even though the dipstick shows otherwise.

[Tbev]

So I started it up again today and I'm feeling a bit defeated. Here are my issues:
1. It's still smoking at start up. Definitely burning some oil. This is the third start up so if it were residual oil in the side pipes they would of been burned off by now. I'm going to take Paul's (edwardb) advice next and try draining some oil from the pan and assume that maybe the dipstick is not reading correctly and it is actually overfilled.
2. I ran it for about 10 minutes and even brought it up my driveway. I noticed that, unlike my last start up, this time the fan did not kick on. I thought that maybe that was a result of getting the air out of the coolant system and the coolant was flowing properly so the fan was not needed at that point. But the temp gauge went up to 90 degrees C and still no fan. So I shut it down.
3. Almost immediately after shutting it down the heater hose connected to the T fitting at the front of the engine popped off and coolant shot up to my ceiling and all over my car. The connection to that T fitting is the snap on fitting that came with the kit. I have a heater so that hose goes to a H style bypass valve and then to the heater. Any ideas why this happened?
4. Is it normal for the starter to have to crank for 10 to 15 seconds before the Coyote kicks over? I haven't started it in about a week but all three starts seem to take a while before it kicks over.

There was one bright side of the day. My water temp gauge works now. It wasn't working before and I found a wire pulled out of one of the plugs.
Any suggestions/opinions would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Tony

[JohnK]

3. Almost immediately after shutting it down the heater hose connected to the T fitting at the front of the engine popped off and coolant shot up to my ceiling and all over my car. The connection to that T fitting is the snap on fitting that came with the kit. I have a heater so that hose goes to a H style bypass valve and then to the heater. Any ideas why this happened?


So sorry to hear about your problems Tony. Hopefully you get them sorted out soon and it's nothing more serious than just draining a little oil.

Regarding #3, by most accounts the generic fittings that FFR provides in the kit are sometimes prone to failure, as you unfortunately discovered. Do yourself a favor and replace them with real Gates 28504 (https://www.amazon.com/Gates-28504-Heater-Hose/dp/B002R6SOBC) connectors. (Rant mode on: there are a few small items, these being one of them, and the fuel tank filler tube gasket being another, that just cause so much heartache that could be avoided if FFR would supply a slightly better-quality part)

[Tbev]

So sorry to hear about your problems Tony. Hopefully you get them sorted out soon and it's nothing more serious than just draining a little oil.

Regarding #3, by most accounts the generic fittings that FFR provides in the kit are sometimes prone to failure, as you unfortunately discovered. Do yourself a favor and replace them with real Gates 28504 (https://www.amazon.com/Gates-28504-Heater-Hose/dp/B002R6SOBC) connectors. (Rant mode on: there are a few small items, these being one of them, and the fuel tank filler tube gasket being another, that just cause so much heartache that could be avoided if FFR would supply a slightly better-quality part)

Thanks John, I really appreciate that.
I looked up the numbers on the heater hose connectors and they are Dorman's. Those are the ones that came with the kit. The Dorman's are garbage?

[weendoggy]

I second the Gates ones. I've used them (both 5/8" and 3/4") on a few Coyote's and they work fine. No leaks. Even used them on my Coyote swap SN95.

[JohnK]

Garbage may be a bit harsh. I'm sure lots of folks are using them without incident, but there have been enough failures reported that they're just not worth using, IMO. For $35 you can avoid the heartache of a hot coolant geyser.

The fuel tank gasket, OTOH, is a dangerous POS. throw that thing in the trash and buy a genuine Ford F4ZZ-9072-DA.

[Tbev]

Thanks again John. I ordered them and the fuel tank gasket as well.
Anyone have any idea's as to why the computer didn't tell the fan to kick on when it did on the previous start? And is the 15 to 20 seconds of cranking to start normal after a week of not running?

[edwardb]

Thanks again John. I ordered them and the fuel tank gasket as well.
Anyone have any idea's as to why the computer didn't tell the fan to kick on when it did on the previous start? And is the 15 to 20 seconds of cranking to start normal after a week of not running?

x2 on using the genuine Gates connectors on those heater hose connections. I haven't had one blow off fortunately. But the kit provided ones I've received leaked occasionally and never an issue with the Gates parts on two builds and thousands of miles. Dorman quality is typically decent. But if they're the same knock-off parts (e.g. not Gates) as FF was previously supplying, good luck.

Cranking for 15-20 seconds is definitely not normal in my experience. My sense is the Gen 3 cranks slightly longer than the Gen 2 I had in my Roadster. I always attributed this to the dual fuel system. But that's just a guess. Regardless, my Gen 3 starts in just few seconds. Even after sitting all winter it starts right up. What pump and fuel lines do you have and have you confirmed the 65psi fuel pressure per the Ford Performance instructions? Perhaps the fuel is draining down in the lines. But it still should fill and get to the required pressure very quickly. Not sure what else it would be besides fuel.

The Coyote is a cool running engine and with cool winter temps it's going to take a while to get to operating temps. Even 10 minutes may not be enough. You mentioned previously 90 degrees C and the fan didn't start? That's 194 F (my brain only can make sense of Fahrenheit :p) and that's right on the edge of where my Gen 3 fan kicks on. If it goes to 200 F (won't hurt anything) and still doesn't start there might be an issue. You mentioned before maybe still air in the system and that could be an issue too. What cooling system did you install? Per the Factory Five instructions with the manual overflow or the Mustang style plumbing with an expansion tank. My only experience is with the Mustang setup and it's self-burping. So no experience with air in the system if that's what's happening.

[michael everson]

check your fuses for a blown fuse related to the fan. If you wired it direct then its in the distribution box for the coyote. 10-15 seconds is not normal for a start time. I wonder if you have a problem with your fuel pump and its draining all the fuel out of the system. Tkes a bit of time for the pressure to build back up. Next time you start it, let it run for a couple seconds then shut it off and try again. Does it start right away?
Mike

[Tbev]

What pump and fuel lines do you have and have you confirmed the 65psi fuel pressure per the Ford Performance instructions? Perhaps the fuel is draining down in the lines.

You mentioned before maybe still air in the system and that could be an issue too. What cooling system did you install? Per the Factory Five instructions with the manual overflow or the Mustang style plumbing with an expansion tank. My only experience is with the Mustang setup and it's self-burping. So no experience with air in the system if that's what's happening.

I'm running the Holley 12-345 Sniper Fuel Pump from Mike Forte-340 lPH (90 gph). Yes the fuel pressure goes up to 65psi once running. The fuel lines and fuel filter are all from Mike Forte. Maybe I should call Mike.

The cooling system I am using is the one from the FFR instructions with the exception that I did not use the FFR overflow tank, but it's the same concept. I have regretted not installing the system that you installed on your builds right from the beginning. So much so that I have recently received all of the hoses and the Moroso tank and will be redoing my cooling system next. I have been using your 20th Anniversary build thread as a second manual to the FFR manual from the start. I did not follow your lead and use the OEM style coolant system and have regretted it. I am not saying that you can't get the FFR designed system to run correctly because I'm sure you can. I have just never liked it. I don't like the looks of it and I don't like where the coolant fill is.

Thank you for your response!

[Tbev]

check your fuses for a blown fuse related to the fan. If you wired it direct then its in the distribution box for the coyote. 10-15 seconds is not normal for a start time. I wonder if you have a problem with your fuel pump and its draining all the fuel out of the system. Tkes a bit of time for the pressure to build back up. Next time you start it, let it run for a couple seconds then shut it off and try again. Does it start right away?
Mike

When I shut it down and restart it it still takes several seconds to kick over but not the 15 to 20 seconds it takes when it has been sitting for a while. Is there a way I can test the fuel pump to determine if that's the issue? Thank you

[michael everson]

maybe with a fuel pressure gauge. Do you have one on the regulator? If so crank it over while watching the gauge. It wont start until it sees around 50 PSI or so.


Mike