My pulleys aren't misaligned - why did this happen?

[NiceGuyEddie]

177046177047177048

(Sorry that I don't have a photo of a straight edge against the front of my pulleys in all sorts of combos.)

There are a few hundred miles on this belt - installed when I put my standard pulleys back on. The last time I started up the car the belt squeaked so I thought I'd just have to snug up a broken-in / stretched belt.

One entire groove on the belt has worn away. There are shreds of the belt all over the place.

Is DAYCO such a crummy brand it's the reason it happened? I ordered a new GoodYear belt to replace this one.

Dayco 5060695 from Advance Auto Parts. 6-rib 69.5" belt.

:confused: :confused: :confused:

[R. Button]

Having had the same issue I suspect your power steering pulley is a little off.
I used a flat steel bar to be sure I have the pulley, for the power steering pump lined up correctly. In my case I used the Alternator pulley to check from.

[lance corsi]

Looks like the pulleys are misaligned, from the picture. Multi-groove belts aren’t as forgiving as standard v-belts.

[jts359]

They look misaligned and are any of them powered coated ? When that stuff chips its like a razor blade and will tear up that belt , Ed

[Jeff Kleiner]

I too think you're dealing with a misaligment issue Eddie. In my experience using a straightedge across the face of the pulleys is often not a good indicator since the thickness at the front of the pulleys isn't always the same from one to another, especially if you're mix & matching pulleys from different manufacturers (i.e. some OEM, some from aftermarket). I've found this to be sepecially true with the power steering pump pulley. You can straightedge but the check needs to be done from ribbed surface to ribbed surface, not face to face.

Good luck,
Jeff

[flyboyjy]

I see this in machinery every once in a while. My field mechanics usually trace it to a worn out bearing in one of the components that allows the belt to be just so ever slightly out of alignment. The belt will "walk" forward and it chews off the leading edge of the belt like in your pictures. Straight edge all the components like Jeff says, something is not straight anymore.

[jamminj]

flyboyjy is on it
a worn bearing can easily cause a belt to do that the bearing can cause the pully to cant slightly left then right and under on/off throttle
and chew up the edges of the belt and eventually jump
yet look straight when you're idling or shut off

[NiceGuyEddie]

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177056

Well this is very strange. 7,000 miles on the engine, then I take off the underdrive pulleys and put the standard ones back on. Then 200 miles later this happens.

I should have mentioned that after the new belt, during startup it did squeak a bit. I was unsure if I could extend the tensioner any more due to not enough threads. There was about 1" of play in the longest stretch of the belt.


It was last night I took the whole thing apart to measure the threads in the tensioner. So I'll have a better idea of how much I can tension the belt.

I'm going to assume operator error until the new belt proves otherwise. Then I guess it's more major surgery.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Well this is very strange. 7,000 miles on the engine, then I take off the underdrive pulleys and put the standard ones back on. Then 200 miles later this happens.

I should have mentioned that after the new belt, during startup it did squeak a bit. I was unsure if I could extend the tensioner any more due to not enough threads. There was about 1" of play in the longest stretch of the belt.


It was last night I took the whole thing apart to measure the threads in the tensioner. So I'll have a better idea of how much I can tension the belt.

I'm going to assume operator error until the new belt proves otherwise. Then I guess it's more major surgery.

It’s not strange at all Eddie—-for 7,000 miles the pulleys were aligned then 200 miles ago you changed them and they are no longer in alignment. Pretty obvious actually.

By the way, I’m not sure why you attached this photo:

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=177058&d=1671642047

That’s my engine…15 years and 30,000 miles and that belt has never been touched.

Jeff

[cob427sc]

I had a similar problem on a front drive setup for a old Hemi. The way I found it was to use an inexpensive laser, set it up so I could swing from one pulley to another and check the grooves on each pulley. Actually found that the front drive setup plate, from a major manufacturer had drilled the hole for an idler slightly off perpendicular from the plate. This allowed the idler pulley to be misaligned to the belt and chewed up the belt in less than 100 miles. Visually I couldn't see it, a straight edge wouldn't fit in the proper alignment to show it. I used a $10 laser from somewhere and mounted it on a bolt.

[Railroad]

A frayed belt can be the result of not getting the belt centered in the pulley. Ask me how I know?

[Jim Stabe]

I too think you're dealing with a misaligment issue Eddie. In my experience using a straightedge across the face of the pulleys is often not a good indicator since the thickness at the front of the pulleys isn't always the same from one to another, especially if you're mix & matching pulleys from different manufacturers (i.e. some OEM, some from aftermarket). I've found this to be sepecially true with the power steering pump pulley. You can straightedge but the check needs to be done from ribbed surface to ribbed surface, not face to face.

Good luck,
Jeff

I went through the same thing. The p/s pulley had a thicker front rim causing the ribbed area to be set back about 3/32". This caused the belt to ride up on the front rim. After a couple days of measuring the fronts of the pulleys with straight edges, I finally listened to what the belt was trying to tell me and I spaced the p/s pump forward 3/32" and the problem went away. It is very difficult to measure alignment of the grooves, if anyone has a method that works I would like to hear about it.

more info - I Googled alignment tools and found several available. All of them were laser devices that registered on the grooved portion of the pulley and there were none that cost less than $2000. Not the home builder solution I was looking for.

[first time builder]

Ryobi (Home Depot) has a laser block that would probably work.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/RYOBI-Laser-Cube-Compact-Laser-Level-ELL1500/300038779?mtc=SHOPPING-BF-CDP-BNG-D25T-025_001_HAND_TOOLS-NA-NA-NA-SMART-NA-NA-NA-NA-NBR-NA-NA-NA-HandTools&cm_mmc=SHOPPING-BF-CDP-BNG-D25T-025_001_HAND_TOOLS-NA-NA-NA-SMART-NA-NA-NA-NA-NBR-NA-NA-NA-HandTools-71700000086134211-58700007341211183-92700065813630032&msclkid=c7def3421efa1e146a2a90e5347f5cd4&gclid=c7def3421efa1e146a2a90e5347f5cd4&gclsrc=3p.ds

[Jim Wehr]

I've had the same problem. I can't seem to fix it. I get about 5000 miles out of a belt and I check it often for fraying. I always carry a spare. Easy swap.

[NiceGuyEddie]

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https://youtu.be/gcAMjqI9iUc

https://youtu.be/yUFAxEegLpY


OK Everybody...

Jeff said that aligning the pulleys themselves may not be the best way to do this since the pulleys vary, but way back in 2005 it took me many many hours to get the spacers cut to the right length to align everything. This is how I set up my pulleys and there have been no problems after 19,000 miles. This is with two sets of pulleys, standard and underdrive, both swapped out at least twice each. The pulley and bracket system has even been on two engine blocks and two engines, so at least two waterpumps and FOUR power steering pumps.

It was just recently I put my standard pulleys back on, and this is when the squeaking problem started, starting with the belt itself (allegedly.) The squeak was only there during startup, and when you rev the engine. The problem went away after everything warmed up. Until just recently, after startup it sounded really, really bad and then the shredding.

Here is where we are at. With a new GoodYear belt it was 100% quiet on startup. Felt great! Then 10 minutes of driving to the gas station - fine, but after starting up again it started squeaking. I drove home with as low RPMs as possible and tightened the belt a little more. I have about 1/2" of play, but 1" if you really want to stretch it.

The first video is a 4K video 60 fps, the second video is 1080p and 240 fps. I tried to slow down the 240 fps video with software, but the sound goes away, so try to look at it in 0.25 speed. It does not look like anything is wrong. When the belt was off all the pulleys spun by hand made no noise and no looseness. The power steering pulley "ticks" in/out about 1/16" but I think that's normal.

[Fman]

Why did you switch out the pulleys in the first place? You mentioned they worked fine for 7k miles. Just asking.

[johnnybgoode]

Looks from your original pictures that the alternator pulley is too far forward and this is causing the belt to fray. Can you shim it back a 1/16"+ or so?

I feel your pain. I've spent hours trying to get the belt on my 37 to quiet down. I've shimmed all the pulleys and laser-aligned them all. Still, squeaks for the first 30 seconds but is fine after that.

Scott

[Andrew Davis]

Just noticed in pic1, it appears the inside forward edge of the pulley is out of round. Could be bearing runout or wear due to belt friction. I would remove belt and use a dial indicator to check it.

[J R Jones]

Perhaps you should investigate a dynamic condition that is not apparent at idle or free-revving. A suggestion is tell-tails at the pullies or a video of the parts during an acceleration and deceleration. A chassis dyno would make that video easier.
jim

[NiceGuyEddie]

Fman: I changed back to the standard pulleys because the underdrive pulleys may have been causing heat issues. Turns out I never got a chance to drive the car when it was warm outside, it's been cold drives only and I haven't gotten into traffic.

The photos are probably a bit egged so let's say they are only examples of the pulleys being straight & true and the don't seem to have shifted since my first build.

I found a video saying that a Goodyear Gatorback belt helps with squeaking. For $27 I'll give it a shot and of course it could never hurt to have a spare - especially in this condition.

I also wonder if putting the underdrive pulleys back on and the old belt back on would cause the same issue. If any of the pulleys on the waterpump, power steering pump, or alternator went bad it should still squeak.

The underdrive pulleys are smaller and the belt for that setup is a lot shorter - that might change the geometry IF something is misaligned.

It's going to rain for at least 10 days here so there is no harm in putting the underdrive pulleys back on as an experiment.

[NiceGuyEddie]

https://youtu.be/_R9Q_ZfrOPY

The video above shows slight warpage in the standard waterpump pulley, maybe 1/3 of a millimeter. I can't imagine this would cause so much trouble.

I have a brand new, really nice runout gauge but in this case there was nowhere to mount it so I used a ghetto-fabulous tire iron bent just the right way.

I also measured the waterpump mounting flange and there is slight runout on the back, but the important part is the front face and I was unable to measure it. Once installed, the underdrive waterpump pulley has negligible runout - I could not hold the tire iron steady enough and I don't have a video.

I put the underdrive pulleys back on along with the old belt, and there was absolutely no squeaking. I have about 1/2 of play in the belt, more than 1" if you really stretch it. I ran the car in the garage for 10 minutes and there was still no squeaking. When the weather allows I will of course go out for a drive.

For now I will presume either the standard waterpump pulley is warped, and/or the pulleys are somehow misaligned. The underdrive pulleys are smaller, the belt is a few inches longer, and thusly has more time to "travel" to the next pulley, thusly more time to correct itself.

In the future I may look to buy a brand new set of standard pulleys, but for now it's the cool season and I want to drive the car!!!

[NiceGuyEddie]

I went for a long drive with the old under-drive pulleys and old belt and there were no problems with squeaking.

Two possibilities:


The old donor waterpump pulley is warped (possible, it has 215,000 miles on it)
The pulley(s) are a bit misaligned but the smaller under-drive pulleys make up for it due to longer belt travel between belts


I still have dim gauge lights & headlights at idle, this means the waterpump is turning slower as well. I don't see why I'd have dim headlights at idle, I have a Powermaster alternator and the Volt meter indicates strong no matter the RPM.

Maybe some day I'll buy new standard pulleys and try it again, but for now it's the winter and I want to drive the car.

[rich grsc]

I went for a long drive with the old under-drive pulleys and old belt and there were no problems with squeaking.

Two possibilities:


The old donor waterpump pulley is warped (possible, it has 215,000 miles on it)
The pulley(s) are a bit misaligned but the smaller under-drive pulleys make up for it due to longer belt travel between belts


I still have dim gauge lights & headlights at idle, this means the waterpump is turning slower as well. I don't see why I'd have dim headlights at idle, I have a Powermaster alternator and the Volt meter indicates strong no matter the RPM.

Maybe some day I'll buy new standard pulleys and try it again, but for now it's the winter and I want to drive the car.
That's the reason for dim lights at idle, powermaster. It will not charge at low rpm's, amps are what do the work, not volts. I've seen batteries with 12v, but zero amps

[BEAR-AvHistory]

Old Tech. Might not work but do any of the pulleys run surfaces look more polished in one area more than the others?

[wrp]

Maybe slightly imperceptible but I have found that the pulleys can flex themselves pulling inward and outward, not to mention crankshaft walking forwards and backwards. JamminJ is probably saying it best., JMHO

[NiceGuyEddie]

That's the reason for dim lights at idle, powermaster. It will not charge at low rpm's, amps are what do the work, not volts. I've seen batteries with 12v, but zero amps

What's up Rich:

I am very surprised the Powermaster would not be a good alternator. Also, for years, I've always wondered why my volt-meter gauge never moved. I don't recall the reading off-hand but it's in the range of 14-15V. One would think that when I get to idle it might show 10V.

I've never actually put a meter across any terminals on my car, just so I can learn I'll do it first chance.

[Jeff Kleiner]

What's up Rich:

I am very surprised the Powermaster would not be a good alternator. Also, for years, I've always wondered why my volt-meter gauge never moved. I don't recall the reading off-hand but it's in the range of 14-15V. One would think that when I get to idle it might show 10V.

I've never actually put a meter across any terminals on my car, just so I can learn I'll do it first chance.

The voltmeter is reading battery voltage, not alternator output---that would require an ammeter. If your voltmeter shows 10 volts you have a dead battery.

Jeff

[Mastertech5]

If your battery reads ten volts while running the alternator is not charging and it is running off the battery, causing it to drain. Check with a handheld voltmeter. Charge or jump the battery to get engine started if it won't.

[rich grsc]

What's up Rich:

I am very surprised the Powermaster would not be a good alternator. Also, for years, I've always wondered why my volt-meter gauge never moved. I don't recall the reading off-hand but it's in the range of 14-15V. One would think that when I get to idle it might show 10V.

I've never actually put a meter across any terminals on my car, just so I can learn I'll do it first chance.

It's a single wire alternator correct? That type just does a poor job of charging a low RPM's. I suggest if it isn't charging replace it with a Ford 3G alternator, they will charge at an idle and you will never have dim lighting again

https://www.dbelectrical.com/products/alternator-3-0-aerostar-92-93-94-7-5-f150-f250-f350-pickup-96-97.html
You'll need a wiring harness adapter from Breeze

[Rdone585]

Try a search for why to use underdrive pullies. The advantage is horsepower gain, the cost is accessory performance. In this case it's alternator charging capability. Regardless of the alternator manufacturer an underdrive pully will not cause the alternator to rotate fast enough to push a charge into the system. At that point you are using the battery, not the alternator. Once you rev the motor sufficiently it will charge the system by providing more current than the system is consuming and thus charge the battery.