Type 65 build questions

[Performance nut]

Finally won over the wife on a build. Not only to buy but she is going to help build it. Though she was very clear she will never join me on the track. Well, guess you can't win them all :D

I had some questions about the overwhelming number of options FFR has. What I have now.

2018 Mustang GT with 10R80 transmission (say what you will but the 10R80 is a phenomenal transmission)
Tuned for E85 with a catback exhaust for added noise
Highly modified suspension (Steeda and BMR mainly). Springs, shocks, sway bars, bushings, bearings, braces... quite a bit.
PP calipers with AP Racing rotors
3.73 rear differential out of a PP Mustang
Apex 19x11 SM10's with 305/30-19 MPS4S all around


I'm a Chevy guy but man do I love the Gen3 Coyote. The IRS is also pretty good (needs help though hence the plethora of suspension mods). I'm wanting to go back to a manual for a cruise and track car. The two tracks I would like to race at would be COTA (been there with the 'stang, just awesome experience) and the Texas mile. Before I order, I'm wondering what is worth it and what isn't.

Want to use a Gen3 Coyote with the six-speed that comes in the 2018-20 Mustang GT. Saw another post that used this and seemed to work well. Option hydraulic clutch master cylinder seems like a no brainer.
5.0 power steering kit seems like an easy choice unless you like workouts when you drive
Want to use the IRS option. I'm assuming that if using an S550 IRS that some other components that work on the S550 platform will work here? I ask because if the 3.55 option (16668) is the same as what is offered at FPR, I don't want it. I had that diff and didn't like it. Plus some of the stuff Steeda and BMR makes I think would work well here (bushing upgrades for example).
Since I plan on cruising too, AC is a must here in Texas (105-115F is no joke :D). I have read that the FFR air conditioning do not perform well in high heat but have no idea if there are options.
Seats that keep you ... seated in high G turns but don't compress your spine on cruises. Plus after reading posts, these cars are a challenge to get in and out, I'm thinking race seats will compound this significantly (not to mention they have zero padding).

I'm not a fan of low back seats. Are there other options that fit into the Type 65?
Swaybars... are these setup for track use of for daily drivers? Are there other options out there or are these it?
EFI system (33862) and Coyote installation kit (16863): are this pulled from the 2018 Mustang or are these custom to the Type 65?
Will S550 brake systems work on the Type 65 or do this have to be bought with the car? I don't have an issue with Wilwood, just wondered if other options will work like AP Racing or FPR GT350 conversion kits.


I'm not sure if folks like newb questions. I researched this for awhile now and I feel that there is some tribal knowledge that I don't have when I read some of the information on here. I have tons of experience modifying factory cars but never built a hot rod before and this would be my first FFR. I have a ton more questions but this is the first which gets the order started. Since I'm sure there is a very long delay, I'm sure I can learn more as I wait.

I appreciate your input, thank you very much.

[edwardb]

Some responses.

- There's been quite a bit of discussion about the Getrag MT82 in these builds. Yes, some have done it. Things to address: Rear location of the shifter. DIY or commercial (https://www.formacars.com/store/mt82shifter) options. Custom driveshaft required. Then you need to take a look at the ratios and decide if they're optimal. The MT82 requires some modification to fit into the Roadster. But should fit OK in the larger tunnel of the Gen 3 Coupe. I have the Tremec TUET11010 T-56 6-speed in my Coupe. Fits perfectly and I'm very happy with it.

- The 3.55 center section that FFR offers is the standard offering from Ford Performance (M-4001-88355B). It's an iron case version with standard Ford Trak-Lok. If you want something different, short of re-doing the internals, salvage isn't a bad option. I have a new 3.73 Torsen in my Coupe and I like it a lot. But Ford Performance isn't selling that version any more.

- You won't find any aftermarket pieces for the IRS that really fit the Factory Five setup. Nor are they needed IMO. The IRS option already comes with poly bushings and steel sleeves for the center section mount. For all practical purposes, it's a solid mount. The rest of the setup uses Factory Five upper and lower control arms. One of the attachments to the knuckles is the stock location. The others are Heim joints.

- I have front and back sway bars on my Coupe. I'm a 99% street driver, so can't comment other than I'm OK with them. You'll get opinions from others about their usefulness/importance for track use.

- EFI system (33862) and Coyote installation kit (16863) really have nothing to do with the 2018 Mustang. The same kits are offered for the Roadster and the Type 65. The EFI system includes an in-tank pump that IMO is marginal for the Gen 3 Coyote. I sourced my own parts for the same or less money. If you're planning a fuel cell, it's especially not for you. The Coyote installation kit includes mounting brackets for the PCM and PDB. Neither of which I used. Also a bunch of terminals, hoses, etc. I didn't use many of them. It does have brackets for the clutch interlock switch. But kind of expensive if that's all you use.

- Huge fan of the hydraulic clutch setup and went with a Tilton HRB in my build. You'll get lots of opinions on that. But so far I'm very pleased with it.

- Power steering absolutely. Standard rationale: Not just about effort. The power boost allows much higher caster on the front suspension and dramatically improves how the car drives.

- Yes the Factory Five A/C option isn't DD frigid. It's a small evaporator so limited. But has to fit in the available space due to the frame construction. Many have looked for alternatives, including me before going with the Factory Five setup. I have yet to see anyone with an alternative. We're OK with it, but our Michigan weather isn't as hot as some others. The heater if fine FWIW. Will run you out.

- I put Corbeau seats in mine and we're happy with them. For what you describe, a racing seat (e.g. Kirkey) might be the better choice. But will take some research to find the best option for you, including your height, etc.

- Agreed the Coupe is a little challenging to get in and out of. But with practice, something we handle just fine. I have a quick release wheel on mine (NRG SRK-400) and like it a lot. A popular choice by many on here.

My build thread (linked below) has tons of detail and pictures that you may find helpful. Or not. You can decide. No need to apologize for newb questions. You're in good company and plenty of forum bandwidth for new builders. Good luck.

[Slow and Slightly Angry]

Paul (edwardb) is a fantastic resource. His build thread is thorough and is often the first place I refence when I'm approaching a new section of my build. So essentially x2 for what he says

You will find that there are a lot of options out there and most of them are quite expensive.
I was surprised at how little I was able to use from my donor (2016 gt). Brakes on the rear just have to fit in whatever wheel you pick. Fronts are from the sn95 mustang but adapters can be fabricated to accept others. Gordon levy is a good resource for brakes (and really anything else you might have a question about).

[Performance nut]

Some responses.

- There's been quite a bit of discussion about the Getrag MT82 in these builds. Yes, some have done it. Things to address: Rear location of the shifter. DIY or commercial (https://www.formacars.com/store/mt82shifter) options. Custom driveshaft required. Then you need to take a look at the ratios and decide if they're optimal. The MT82 requires some modification to fit into the Roadster. But should fit OK in the larger tunnel of the Gen 3 Coupe. I have the Tremec TUET11010 T-56 6-speed in my Coupe. Fits perfectly and I'm very happy with it.

- The 3.55 center section that FFR offers is the standard offering from Ford Performance (M-4001-88355B). It's an iron case version with standard Ford Trak-Lok. If you want something different, short of re-doing the internals, salvage isn't a bad option. I have a new 3.73 Torsen in my Coupe and I like it a lot. But Ford Performance isn't selling that version any more.

- You won't find any aftermarket pieces for the IRS that really fit the Factory Five setup. Nor are they needed IMO. The IRS option already comes with poly bushings and steel sleeves for the center section mount. For all practical purposes, it's a solid mount. The rest of the setup uses Factory Five upper and lower control arms. One of the attachments to the knuckles is the stock location. The others are Heim joints.

- I have front and back sway bars on my Coupe. I'm a 99% street driver, so can't comment other than I'm OK with them. You'll get opinions from others about their usefulness/importance for track use.

- EFI system (33862) and Coyote installation kit (16863) really have nothing to do with the 2018 Mustang. The same kits are offered for the Roadster and the Type 65. The EFI system includes an in-tank pump that IMO is marginal for the Gen 3 Coyote. I sourced my own parts for the same or less money. If you're planning a fuel cell, it's especially not for you. The Coyote installation kit includes mounting brackets for the PCM and PDB. Neither of which I used. Also a bunch of terminals, hoses, etc. I didn't use many of them. It does have brackets for the clutch interlock switch. But kind of expensive if that's all you use.

- Huge fan of the hydraulic clutch setup and went with a Tilton HRB in my build. You'll get lots of opinions on that. But so far I'm very pleased with it.

- Power steering absolutely. Standard rationale: Not just about effort. The power boost allows much higher caster on the front suspension and dramatically improves how the car drives.

- Yes the Factory Five A/C option isn't DD frigid. It's a small evaporator so limited. But has to fit in the available space due to the frame construction. Many have looked for alternatives, including me before going with the Factory Five setup. I have yet to see anyone with an alternative. We're OK with it, but our Michigan weather isn't as hot as some others. The heater if fine FWIW. Will run you out.

- I put Corbeau seats in mine and we're happy with them. For what you describe, a racing seat (e.g. Kirkey) might be the better choice. But will take some research to find the best option for you, including your height, etc.

- Agreed the Coupe is a little challenging to get in and out of. But with practice, something we handle just fine. I have a quick release wheel on mine (NRG SRK-400) and like it a lot. A popular choice by many on here.

My build thread (linked below) has tons of detail and pictures that you may find helpful. Or not. You can decide. No need to apologize for newb questions. You're in good company and plenty of forum bandwidth for new builders. Good luck.

Thank you very much for the response. It was your build thread that prompted quite a few of my questions. Thank you for taking the time to answer these. I'm going to have to reread your build thread to see if there is more information I missed in there.

I got my 3.73 Torsen from a junkyard as well and I love it. My car came with the trac-loc and it was good at first but eventually it started to not be so good. Whereas the Torsen was good day one and is still good. As for other options, I'm glad I asked. I may just get a junkyard 5.0 and see if I can find a T-56 Magnum that is in good condition. There apparently is no shortage of 5.0's at the junkyard :D

A/C does have me worried some. I'm not joking about the heat out here. With that huge back window, I see that cabin being hot as heck in the summer out here. If a small compressor is needed for clearance, I'm not really sure what alternative you would have short of going with a different gas that could extract more heat with less compression. I'll have to look into that.

BTW, you did great by adding your 5000 mile review. Its always great to see a project completed but way better seeing how it performs after the test drive is done. :)

[edwardb]

Thank you very much for the response. It was your build thread that prompted quite a few of my questions. Thank you for taking the time to answer these. I'm going to have to reread your build thread to see if there is more information I missed in there.

I got my 3.73 Torsen from a junkyard as well and I love it. My car came with the trac-loc and it was good at first but eventually it started to not be so good. Whereas the Torsen was good day one and is still good. As for other options, I'm glad I asked. I may just get a junkyard 5.0 and see if I can find a T-56 Magnum that is in good condition. There apparently is no shortage of 5.0's at the junkyard :D

A/C does have me worried some. I'm not joking about the heat out here. With that huge back window, I see that cabin being hot as heck in the summer out here. If a small compressor is needed for clearance, I'm not really sure what alternative you would have short of going with a different gas that could extract more heat with less compression. I'll have to look into that.

BTW, you did great by adding your 5000 mile review. Its always great to see a project completed but way better seeing how it performs after the test drive is done. :)

Glad you found my build thread. Don't claim to have all the answers (or the right ones...) but I posted what worked for me and very happy with the outcome. My 3.73 Torsen was new. Found one of the last ones on the shelf at Summit Racing when Ford Performance stopped offering them. There are no salvage parts of any kind in my Coupe. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Just how it turned out. The Gen 3 Coyote was pretty new at the time and a new crate motor was about the only way to go.

For the A/C, the issue is the underdash evaporator. Not the compressor. If you look at my build thread, and the Factory Five instructions (https://www.factoryfive.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/AC-HEATER-DEFROSTER-COUPE-Gen-3-REV-G.pdf) you can see the unit they use just barely fits in the available space in the upper RH footbox. Everything else, including multiple brands a bunch of us have looked at, take up considerably more space. I have a nice Vintage Air system in my truck build. One of their more compact units. But wouldn't fit in the Coupe. Not even close. The compressor Factory Five supplies is a standard Mustang unit and bolts into the factory location on the Coyote with no clearance issues. I'm far from an expert on the subject, but I highly doubt there are alternatives to the R134a refrigerant that all modern car systems are designed for. Agreed the hatch window is a giant greenhouse that generates a lot of heat. I've seen where guys have added tinting to the glass which apparently helps. Same for the windshield. Maybe that's something to consider. A friend with a Superformance said a buddy of his added a plexi panel behind the back seats that blocked the rear hatch area and really improved the A/C effectiveness. Apparently it's not just a Factory Five concern. Haven't seen anyone on here do that, but again maybe something to consider. About the only other alternative, which several have suggested, is to put the evaporator somewhere else. Like in the hatch area or even in one of the rear fender wells. Certainly could do something bigger with the available space. But adds significant complication for plumbing, ducting, etc. Only talk. Haven't seen an actual installation.

I'll add one more comment about the A/C. Again reflecting on Michigan weather where we typically only have a couple weeks of 90 plus degrees during the summer. But FWIW. Where we find it struggles the most is after it's parked outside for a length of time. Like at a car show, etc. The inside gets heat soaked and it takes a pretty long time for the cockpit to cool back off. I've found it helps a lot, and is now my standard practice, to open the back hatch if it's going to be parked for awhile. And I'm around obviously. Just driving out of the garage where it hasn't had a chance to get super heated inside, it's not bad at all. We've done 200-300 mile cruises with the A/C running on 90+ degree and high humidity days and stayed comfortable.

[David Williamson]

A few more thoughts on the AC, add 2 more dash vents like Paul did so more cool air will blow on you, I didn't and wish I had. I also tinted the hatch glass and that helps and yes open it when the car is parked and you are nearby.
David W

[Jeff Kleiner]

For the A/C, the issue is the underdash evaporator. Not the compressor. If you look at my build thread, and the Factory Five instructions you can see the unit they use just barely fits in the available space in the upper RH footbox. Everything else, including multiple brands a bunch of us have looked at, take up considerably more space. I have a nice Vintage Air system in my truck build. One of their more compact units. But wouldn't fit in the Coupe. Not even close. The compressor Factory Five supplies is a standard Mustang unit and bolts into the factory location on the Coyote with no clearance issues. I'm far from an expert on the subject, but I highly doubt there are alternatives to the R134a refrigerant that all modern car systems are designed for. Agreed the hatch window is a giant greenhouse that generates a lot of heat. I've seen where guys have added tinting to the glass which apparently helps.

Echoing what Paul said; it's the evaporator, not the compressor and no, "...going with a different gas that could extract more heat..." isn't an option nor is it even how an A/C system functions.

One of my customers added a pretty strong tint to the rear glass on his Coupe and said it made a significant difference. In addition to that big "greenhouse" due to the rear hatch glass, just like with our daily drivers sun beating down on the roof of the car is also going to warm the inside. Although I have not seen it done I can't imagine any reason that the inside of the roof couldn't be done with a heat control mat product like Thermo-Tec or even sprayed with Lizard Skin then have the headliner applied on top of it.

Backing up further, count me in the "not a fan of the MT-82" club. In addition to it's well publicized reliability problems that have resulted in recalls and a pending class action suit the need for expensive shifter relocation plus a costly driveshaft and companion flange to eliminate the funky Guibo joint are major factors but even after overcoming those obstacles you're still left with ratios that are less than ideal for a car weighing 1,500 pounds less than the Mustang that the trans was intended for.

Just one guys opinion though...good luck with your build!

Jeff

[Performance nut]

Thank you all for the help on this, I really do appreciate it! @Jeff Kleiner (since for some reason the website isn't letting me quote right now), what six-speed transmission do you recommend? T56 Magnum seems to be a popular choice but you mentioned that this is a much lighter car (which it is). Obviously rear gear will play a huge factor but I'd like to avoid useless gears. Although I love my A10, first gear with a 3.73 is useless even with 305/30-19. Too much power for that ratio setup. Though the intent wasn't to optimize 0-60mph but improve 40-120mph acceleration (which is where it would live at the track) which it did dramatically.

FFR sent me a link that made my jaw drop. Does anyone know John George?
http://www.johngeorgeracing.com/wordpress/ffr48-car-setup/part-numbers/

[cob427sc]

I endured the heat problems in my early coupe. Back then the rear window was plexiglass and would actually move around when parked in the hot sun. I attempted but never completed building a sun shade for the exterior of the window, similar to the ones installed on Mustang fastbacks back in the day. I think it would have helped keep the heat out. I didn't finish it due to lack of my ability to connect aluminum pieces together (and stay together). With the way they cut vents and grills now with laser equipment it would seem possible to make a similar product that could be either internal or external to the glazing surface. Just an idea.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Thank you all for the help on this, I really do appreciate it! @Jeff Kleiner (since for some reason the website isn't letting me quote right now), what six-speed transmission do you recommend?

Although I don’t think my friend Paul (edwardb) shares my opinion I don’t feel that a 6 speed is necessary and recommend the TKX. With 3.73 in the rear I’d go with the 2.87 first gear and .68 fifth.


…FFR sent me a link that made my jaw drop. Does anyone know John George?
http://www.johngeorgeracing.com/wordpress/ffr48-car-setup/part-numbers/

Oh yeah, we know John. That’s the same link that was provided to you in some comments when you posted on this topic back in 2020.

Jeff

[dstelter]

Did the same on my Coupe. Added 2 more AC/Heater Vents and had the back window tented. Made the mistake of trying to do the work myself. The back window has 2 different curves to it and was impossible for me to get the tent to lay flat without air bubbles. Had a harder time, living in a small town to find someone with a tint that was wide enough for the glass with out putting 2 pieces on it.

Cant tell you how well everything works yet. Still waiting for my drivetrain. I have also seen where people use a partition to separated the rear area from the cabin area.

Pic of My dash before it got covered and gauges installed
176734

Complete Dash
176735

Let us know where in TX you are located. I'm in Paige TX, NE of Austin.

Doug

[edwardb]

Although I don’t think my friend Paul (edwardb) shares my opinion I don’t feel that a 6 speed is necessary and recommend the TKX. With 3.73 in the rear I’d go with the 2.87 first gear and .68 fifth.
Jeff

I love the T-56 in my Coupe. I use the .80 5th speed more than I expected but still have the .63 6th speed for the highway. Really nice combination. Good luck talking me out of it. :cool: But I agree. The TKX is a great choice as well. It's cheaper, lighter, and a bit easier to install without the reverse solenoid lockout. Nice feature but does add a little bit of complexity.

[Performance nut]

Did the same on my Coupe. Added 2 more AC/Heater Vents and had the back window tented. Made the mistake of trying to do the work myself. The back window has 2 different curves to it and was impossible for me to get the tent to lay flat without air bubbles. Had a harder time, living in a small town to find someone with a tint that was wide enough for the glass with out putting 2 pieces on it.

Cant tell you how well everything works yet. Still waiting for my drivetrain. I have also seen where people use a partition to separated the rear area from the cabin area.

Pic of My dash before it got covered and gauges installed
176734

Complete Dash
176735

Let us know where in TX you are located. I'm in Paige TX, NE of Austin.

Doug

Hello Doug, I'm Denis. I'm in San Antonio. Had a buddy who use to live in Bastrop. About the closest I have been to Paige is COTA. How long have you been working on your car?

[dstelter]

Hey Denis,

Gen 3 Coupe #169. Received the kit in July of 2019. was planning on a 2-3 yr plan but has issue with getting my motor and trans. Now on a holding pattern waiting for the new vendor for the motor and trans. should be receiving it in a few months. Creature comforts are A/C and Power Steering. Old school look and 408 Windsor Carbureted with a TKX.

Good luck on the build. Here to help out if needed. This site has a ton of info and good guys for any questions that might come up.

176756

Doug