Future of the 818

[rjp]

So, Dave did a live stream on Facebook today, and I asked beforehand for updates on the 818. I think he gave the most direct answers we've had to date about it's future, so I thought I'd try to summarize:

No production slots allocated in 2023.
If the 818 comes back in 2024, it will have updated styling and likely a different powertrain (LS likely)
It is a low margin kit for them, so the lack of production is being driven by limited slots getting filled with the higher margin products.

I plan to fire off an email to inquire about whether the same donors will be usable on a hypothetical refresh, orif it will be retooled to use another donor in addition to the powertrain changes and those of us sitting on Subaru donors are dead in the water.

I would have liked something a bit more concrete on what to expect in 2024 so that plans can be made, but this is what we've got for now.

Update: Factory Five (I assume Dave) replied to my question about Subaru donors for any future kits, and he said that 2023 lots aren't out of the question, and I shouldn't get rid of the donor yet.

[Hobby Racer]

I was sad to see the 818 go but I understand that if it doesn't bring in the $$ it gets axed.

If they do retool for an LS engine, I'm first in line. :D

[rjp]

It makes me wonder what they'd use for a donor. I can't imagine it would be a trivial update to use a different donor's suspension bits. My hope is that I'll still be able to build it with a Subie donor in addition to the new drivetrain options. Retooling all the other parts in addition to the drive line seems like a big investment for a kit that they already aren't building due to low margins.

[Ajzride]

Retooling for an LS would mean stretching the chassis, which will help a bunch in a lot of ways. By going longer you can also add some room to the cabin and give it more of a super car look by not being so stubby. You can also go just a little bit taller to help with the broomstick test without ruining the proportions.

[FF33rod]

Mostly agree with your summary with the addition of IF it were return. Which I believe means there are no current plans to do so. As such, there won't be an answer to what donor parts would be used. They're just too darned stretched with so many other irons in the fire. I'd prefer it if they were a bit more focused (less projects) as it would help with the execution....

Steve

[cob427sc]

Doesn't an LS based powertrain seem like a down scaled GTM? last I heard the GTM was dead and now the 818. Maybe their looking for a product somewhere in the middle.

[Jetfuel]

An downscale GTM and an upscale 818
Just call it a GT8

Jet

[racingandfishing]

Full disclosure, I have a coupe on order.

That said, there are some non-baby boomers buying the retro kits, but most of us I believe are 50+. The attraction of the retro kits will fade with time - just like pre 60's classics and hot rods are falling out of demand as the population ages. Its all about what you wanted when you were young but couldn't afford - but now you can. In addition, building a retro classic or hot rod from a donor doesn't make much sense anymore as the donors are really aged at this point, which also narrows the market.

The pre-runner truck could help fill that void, but that is a saturated and very competitive market.

I believe by not offering the 818 or something similar, there will be a void to future builders based on newer generation cars and there will be less for the FF5 brand to build upon in the long run.

[jbs72697]

This makes me really glad I didn’t wait until life is less hectic and placed my order and got my 818s right after we sold our house and had equity cash back in spring of last year. I haven’t made nearly as much progress on it as I would have liked (life is still hectic) but at least I have it in my garage :)

[rjp]

Edited the post with an update: I was told 2023 kits aren't out of the question and that I should hold onto the donor for now. That's all I needed to hear for me to start doing, well, anything. The engine needs a rebuild, probably transmission work, too, so I might as well get started on that.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

What happened to the F9?

[rjp]

Dave is still unhappy with the nose on it and it needs to be redesigned. Sounds like post truck launch, there will be movement on other things (F9, possible 818 refresh). No kits before '24 at the earliest, I believe is what he said.

[wallace18]

IMO an LS with the Subie transaxle is a recipe for disaster. Unless you use the beefed up STI 6 spd. I built 4 -818's and donors are getting hard to find as well as most are rusted badly. A good one is fairly costly. It would surprise me if the 818 or GTM ever came back. I always felt the 818 if updated should go with some sort of bolt on rear drive train section of the chassis to allow various FWD donors such as Honda, Ford, VW, ETC. This would get rid of the transaxle issue only coming from a Subie. Just my 2- cents worth. :rolleyes:

[driveslikejehu]

I agree with racingandfishing on the demographics.
I would think us retired coots still love the retro/hotrod stuff, but then what? While its probly true that older folks have more disposable income, its good to have an aspirational product for the next cohort. All the younger folks light up when I talk about my Subaru based project; its something they can relate to. They get that look of, "I could do that after I blow up my WRX." But a GTM, the F9? Seems too pricey, sourcing a porsche transmission? And not a bit of interest in a classic hot rod.

Also, what does it do to the value of our projects? I'm not building it to make money, but currectly there seems to be a pretty viable market for finished cars. Its hard to imagine them becoming collectable, but will they keep value based on their performance, or fall away as orphans?

[GoDadGo]

They're just too darned stretched with so many other irons in the fire. I'd prefer it if they were a bit more focused (less projects) as it would help with the execution....

Steve

Amen To That Mr. Steve, Amen!

If they'd focus on only three platforms (MK4 & FIA), (HR33 & Truck) along with the (Daytona & ??????) they'd probably grow the business and the profits...On a personal note I'd love to see an updated Spyder return or maybe a Re-Bodied Daytona looking something like a Vintage Ferrari.

While I think the Subie platform is cool, it is a project that is likely above most folks abilities much like the GTM was.

[Jeff Kleiner]

I can't disagree with the comments regarding the demographics. We know that the 818 was originally conceptualized to appeal to a younger crowd...what we often think of in car guy terms as "tuners". These are the guys who like to make suspension mods and put lots of boost into their STIs and the like. Thing is most of this culture is more into making modifications and not really interested in doing a full ground up build. I think this is why the 818 didn't ever really become a big sales success in comparison to the other FFR offerings (not considering the GTM which is a different animal altogether) and because of that low volume along with it's low margin hasn't seen much updating or refinement.

Jeff

[Hobby Racer]

... I always felt the 818 if updated should go with some sort of bolt on rear drive train section of the chassis to allow various FWD donors such as Honda, Ford, VW, ETC. This would get rid of the transaxle issue only coming from a Subie. Just my 2- cents worth. :rolleyes:

I could not agree more. The 818 should have been, and if revived should be, based on a FWD platform like the Honda Civic. Move the entire drive-train from the front to rear, just like a Lotus Elise or Ariel Atom.

[Ajzride]

I can't disagree with the comments regarding the demographics. We know that the 818 was originally conceptualized to appeal to a younger crowd...what we often think of in car guy terms as "tuners". These are the guys who like to make suspension mods and put lots of boost into their STIs and the like. Thing is most of this culture is more into making modifications and not really interested in doing a full ground up build. I think this is why the 818 didn't ever really become a big sales success in comparison to the other FFR offerings (not considering the GTM which is a different animal altogether) and because of that low volume along with it's low margin hasn't seen much updating or refinement.

Jeff


I believe this is how the K-1 Attack designed. I think the K-1 looks far superior too. If I hadn’t been so nervous about ordering from a small Eastern European manufacturer I would have looked a lot harder at a K-1.

[drewr]

It sounded like from the video that the 818 and the GTM are pretty much on the shelf. He indicated that the 818 may come back one day with a redesign, but there are more pressing matters currently. That would indicate to me that there is no current plan to revive, but also no desire to shutter the program. They are doubling down on the roadster, the coupe and the hot rod. The truck is the big play for the future. That is a sound business model for the current market. I'm in California, and plans to get rid of the combustion engine are well underway. The rest of the country will not be far behind. I have two sons, one in his 20s, and one a teenager. The teenager is into JDM cars. The older one isn't the least bit interested in cars. I think that is pretty reflective of where most young people are.

There will always be a market for performance vehicles. Whether they will be based on past great cars, based on EV technology or be highly specialized is an open question. FFR has managed to roll with the tides so far. I'm sure they will make the right choices.

[J R Jones]

So, Dave did a live stream on Facebook today, and I asked beforehand for updates on the 818. I think he gave the most direct answers we've had to date about it's future, so I thought I'd try to summarize:

No production slots allocated in 2023.
If the 818 comes back in 2024, it will have updated styling and likely a different powertrain (LS likely)
It is a low margin kit for them, so the lack of production is being driven by limited slots getting filled with the higher margin products.

I plan to fire off an email to inquire about whether the same donors will be usable on a hypothetical refresh, orif it will be retooled to use another donor in addition to the powertrain changes and those of us sitting on Subaru donors are dead in the water.

I would have liked something a bit more concrete on what to expect in 2024 so that plans can be made, but this is what we've got for now.

Update: Factory Five (I assume Dave) replied to my question about Subaru donors for any future kits, and he said that 2023 lots aren't out of the question, and I shouldn't get rid of the donor yet.

Nit picking the term "margin" that is a percentage of manufacturing cost, so it becomes the difference between sales and expenses. The margin on manufactured product is often 20-25%. The margin on parts and accessories is a lot more, sometimes five times more. The margin as a percentage of manufacturing is likely the same across kits. Higher priced kits bring more "profit". Margin can be eroded by problems in manufacturing, purchasing and warranty. Obviously shipping incomplete kits, and follow-up shipping erodes margin. Vertical integration may be an advantage at protecting margin, with internal control. I recently discovered on this forum that FFR outsources FRP body parts. They are at the mercy of the supplier for quality and cost. The 818 was the low price point, the GTR was the high price point. If either model is to return, FFR will have to be confident they have control of the margin and likely the cost will be higher.

[rjp]

I think that's a fair clarification of terminology. What are the FRP body parts to which you refer. Not familiar with that acronym.

E: I think a price increase has been well earned at this point. The past two years have seen 10% inflation, and the kit cost has increased far less than that. I'm assuming trying to keep the price down has come at the expense of profit. I don't follow the other kits, so I don't know what sort of price history they have.

[Jeff Kleiner]

… What are the FRP body parts to which you refer. Not familiar with that acronym...

Bodies. Main bodies are produced by a third party. Smaller fiberglass parts (doors, hoods, etc.) are done in house.

Jeff

[rjp]

Ah. They had molds and the robot cutter running when I did a factory tour, so I assumed all the fiberglass work was in house.

[FFRWRX]

I think a price increase has been well earned at this point. The past two years have seen 10% inflation, and the kit cost has increased far less than that. I'm assuming trying to keep the price down has come at the expense of profit. I don't follow the other kits, so I don't know what sort of price history they have.

Might be a bad time for a price increase with the economy heading where it is. Building a fairly nice 818 today cost about $50,000 Canadian ($37,000 US). And that is one of the cheapest "kit cars" you can build. The higher end ones cost as much as a new Vette and at that point I have a hard time seeing the value. Yes, you do it to have a unique car, but cost does come into it at some point. And no matter how nice the car is built, unless you spend a pile of money with a custom upholstery shop, it still looks like a kit car inside.

To me, F5 seems to be heading in a direction that doesn't interest me at all (trucks). I suppose the Cobras must be doing well since they are dropping the high and low end stuff. I can only imagine what an F9 would cost to build with the carbon fibre body.

As some have mentioned, the 818 was very good in concept, but they did a really poor job of engineering and producing it. Made it into a very difficult and frustrating build. I can't see the 818 coming back as a "redesign"; it would need pretty much a start from scratch to not use a Subaru donor and use a different engine; pretty much all the body panels would need work at that point too.

I'm really sorry they didn't do a MKII of the 818 to improve all the issues builders have identified. I think with that and some new advertising it could still be a real hit.

Rick

edit: to answer a question above, FRP= fibreglass reinforced plastic

[jbs72697]

I just thought of something. If the 818 is probably going away, would FFR hang on to the molds? If one of us destroys a body panel somehow would we be able to order a replacement from them?

[rjp]

I can't imagine they'd get rid of them. Same with the jigs for the frame. You never know, though.

E: I'm a packrat and that influences how I think.

[jmauld]

if you’re redesigning the 818, could you make an EV version of it, maybe based on the model 3 drivetrain?

[FFRWRX]

if you’re redesigning the 818, could you make an EV version of it, maybe based on the model 3 drivetrain?

Now that might interest me. At some point I think F5 should offer an electric version of one of their cars. I know there are other companies that offer packages to do that, but all coming from one place would make the whole project more cohesive.

[lance corsi]

I will never build another mid-engine car. The packaging is horrible and maintenance is a chore. No luggage capacity, etc. unless I was going racing, then I might go that route, but for sure the rear clip bodywork would pivot out of the way.

[driveslikejehu]

Now that might interest me. At some point I think F5 should offer an electric version of one of their cars. I know there are other companies that offer packages to do that, but all coming from one place would make the whole project more cohesive.

FF5 says they trademarked F9, F9R and F9E, so I'm guessing they're thinking of an electric.

[cob427sc]

Mid engine cars have always been a bear to work on including my GTM. I have also owned several Porsches (914, 914-6, Boxer) all mid engined an none were easy to maintain. The 914-6 was easier to drop the engine out of the car to replace sparkplugs or adjust the valves, but they were all great cars including my current 818.

[Frank818]

Oh boy, I'm sad to see this about the 818 the way we know it. :(
I love mine, if FFR refreshes it differently, it means our kits will get even rarer. It's good but it's also bad.
What happens if someone has an accident and an entire body panel needs to be replaced.

Things have changed a lot in the past 9 years...

[sparrow801]

100% I couldn’t agree more on your post. The owner of Factory Five is older as well and I personally don’t think there’s much of a plan for how Factory Five will appeal to the next generation of builders. Maybe it’s a non-issue because David will just sell off the company anyway and ride off into the sunset, but if the only modern build that’s available in the future is an F9 with carbon fiber panels on it then I don’t see that gaining much adoption from a normal thirty or forty year old who has a more limited budget. I could be completely off base with my opinion but that’s just how I feel.

[driveslikejehu]

I agree with the last post; Factory Five’s future wouldn’t be based on Cobra’s and rod trucks. Only so many of us old geezers left. When I’m at the track I’m amazed at the proliferation of young folks growing “car culture”; mods, swaps, racing, drifting, time attack, etc.
There’s a classic failure of American manufactures; “we’ve been successful in the past, just keep doing what we’re doing, just more and lower cost.” Technology changes, markets change, demographics change; if you aren’t planning for future builders/customers, you’re not planning a company future.
Wow, that sounds preachy, but I’ve seen it, lived it. I’ve also seen companies, trim the product line, and slow new products and product development to spruce the bottom line for sale.
I hope the 818 or something like it goes forward. There are so many hot front wheel drive options out there that could be relocated to a mid-engine.

[Ajzride]

I hope the 818 or something like it goes forward. There are so many hot front wheel drive options out there that could be relocated to a mid-engine.

I think the K-1 Attack is really what FFR needs to look at for inspiration on a mid-engine sports car moving forwards. It accepts 3 or 4 different front engine drive trains and associated donor suspension/steering parts. Very affordable, very versatile. I think something like that could still reach the audience the FFR was target at. If I hadn’t been scared of ordering from an Eastern European company I actually thing the K-1 looks much better too. A lot of stuff there FFR could learn from.

[JohnK]

I'm not sure I agree with the basic premise that newer generations of builders are only interested in more modern-looking cars. When I take my kids to car shows, they "ooh" and "aah" at classic cars as much as I do.

FFR made their name selling replicas of cars that were already "classic" cars to those that were building them. The roadster and coupe are replicas of cars that were already "classics" by the time I became a car aficionado, and there are certainly roadster and coupe builders on the forum that are younger than me. I think that there are just different types of car guys. Some appreciate classics and will be drawn to iconic cars from previous eras, while others will be drawn to more modern offerings. If you're drawn to more modern offerings, that's totally cool. There are plenty of other manufacturers that cater to that need. I think FFR will do just fine continuing to sell the replicas of classics (roadster, coupe, hot rod/truck) for a very long time. I would wager that those accounted for >99% of their sales even when the GTM and 818 were available for order. I would even go so far as to say that FFR is making a mistake trying to branch out into more modern offerings (F9, pre-runner truck) vs. coming up with other replicas. It just wouldn't be that hard, for example, to come up with a Jag E-Type replica based on the coupe platform. I'd build an E-Type Lightweight replica in a heartbeat.

But this is all just my opinion. :p

[rjp]

I noticed now that we're into 2023 that the note on the order page has changed. I was wondering how it would be updated, since it specifically referenced 2022 previously.

Note: The 818 is not currently in production, and we are not taking more orders at this time. We have a wait list if you'd like to sign-up. Email us at kitsales@factoryfive.com to be added to a wait list.

Click here to watch a Facebook live update with more info on the 818 and other projects we're working on.

Stay tuned for more updates on the 818.

[rthomas98]

I'm not sure I agree with the basic premise that newer generations of builders are only interested in more modern-looking cars. When I take my kids to car shows, they "ooh" and "aah" at classic cars as much as I do.

FFR made their name selling replicas of cars that were already "classic" cars to those that were building them. The roadster and coupe are replicas of cars that were already "classics" by the time I became a car aficionado, and there are certainly roadster and coupe builders on the forum that are younger than me. I think that there are just different types of car guys. Some appreciate classics and will be drawn to iconic cars from previous eras, while others will be drawn to more modern offerings. If you're drawn to more modern offerings, that's totally cool. There are plenty of other manufacturers that cater to that need. I think FFR will do just fine continuing to sell the replicas of classics (roadster, coupe, hot rod/truck) for a very long time. I would wager that those accounted for >99% of their sales even when the GTM and 818 were available for order. I would even go so far as to say that FFR is making a mistake trying to branch out into more modern offerings (F9, pre-runner truck) vs. coming up with other replicas. It just wouldn't be that hard, for example, to come up with a Jag E-Type replica based on the coupe platform. I'd build an E-Type Lightweight replica in a heartbeat.

But this is all just my opinion. :p

I would agree. I am "millennial" although I am 40 now (yes our group has aged). But for me it was always about the Cobra from day one which is why I built the MK4. Really where the demographic splits is on the powertrains and options not the total design of the car. You are also seeing it in how these are being sat-up now. Backdraft seems to have the best flinger on the pulse as their demographic is decidedly younger with the RT4B. Heck even look how different Dave's son's car is compared to the other builds. These are slight changes that can be offered with minimal tooling. Like I would of loved a "blacked out" option for all the chrome as opposed to me nerve rackingly pulling the pieces apart and sending them to powder coat. LED options for the head lamps and turn signals from F5 as an option. Digital gauge clusters as a F5 option. Yes I integrated much of this myself as I did the build. But an option from the source keeps the product fresh with minimal investments. It is the same reason OEMs do mid-cycle refreshes on their cars. The cars looks are timeless. But the tech you can put in them is limitless.

[JohnK]

Yes, you sort of hit the nail on the head with the "timeless looks". A cobra is always going to have to look like a cobra. You can give it a more modern treatment with blacked out parts, modern driveline, digital dash, but the basic body shape is always going to be what it is. Same for most other classics. The "problem" with the 818 and GTM (and Superlite SL-C and many other "modern" cars) is after a while they look dated and need a refresh to stay appealing. They don't have an inherent DNA that spans decades. IIRC, Dave Smith said in the FB video that the 818 will not come back in its current design without a refresh to make it more current. I also love the Superlite SL-C and briefly considered one as a next build but that front end is straight out of the 90's and I'm not looking to build a "classic 90's car". ;)

[J R Jones]

Having built and raced the Shelby and Tiger cars back in the day, I have an appreciation for the "legacy" associated with them. Frankly the application of modern aesthetics and technology repulses me. Each to their own.
The F9 has nothing for me, I predict it will fail similar to the GTM and 818.
The truck? I would not walk across the street to see one, or tow with one.
New product for another demographic could be done for less development capitol and could be done more easily by adapting current platforms.
The exoskeleton cars like the Ariel Atom would be heavily defeatured FFRs, and minimally rebodied.
https://www.arielna.com/arielatom
I would start with the 33 chassis and look at the Coupe as a concept.
The 818 and GTM are appropriate but the Subaru drive train has to go. Toyota or Honda are appropriate.
jim

[Ajzride]

You guys are philosophizing whether FFR should continue to pursue the demographic they set out for with the 818, others are a talking about what they need to change to reach that demographic. Those are two separate questions.

[J R Jones]

You guys are philosophizing whether FFR should continue to pursue the demographic they set out for with the 818, others are a talking about what they need to change to reach that demographic. Those are two separate questions.

There is wisdom in your comment. Do they pursue is the first order of business, how is academic if the first answer is no.
The best business model is a monopoly. Obviously that is not these legacy products.
The 818/GTM could have been monopolies, but there are similar products and only so many of that demographic to go around. If either product was not acknowledged with adequate buyers, is the niche worth pursuing with product development?
If either product had poor ROI for internal reasons, is it worth fixing?
Most companies would prefer a product with uni-demographic appeal. The more focused the product, the less likely that is to happen.
Ambition is risky.
jim

[JohnK]

You guys are philosophizing whether FFR should continue to pursue the demographic they set out for with the 818, others are a talking about what they need to change to reach that demographic. Those are two separate questions.

Yes and no.

If you assume that a kit targeted at a demographic that wants a 'more modern' car has to be updated with some regularity in order to continue to appeal to that demographic (very similar to the example of OEM's that do mid-model refreshes to remain relevant), then that naturally brings on the question of whether or not such an offering is financially viable. In contrast, Dave Smith has said that the Mk4 is the last real redesign of the roadster. That car is a cash cow for FFR (relatively speaking).

[DanielsDM]

I just thought of something. If the 818 is probably going away, would FFR hang on to the molds? If one of us destroys a body panel somehow would we be able to order a replacement from them?

Did anyone get an answer to this question? I'm going to be racing my 818R and body damage is somewhat inevitable.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Did anyone get an answer to this question? I'm going to be racing my 818R and body damage is somewhat inevitable.

I've contacted Dave for earlier bodies and panels due to crash damage. They have the molds for Mk3 roadsters as well as for the Gen 1&2 Coupes so I would think that the 818 molds will get mothballed as well and be available if necessary.

Jeff

[driveslikejehu]

When I posted about this on the 818 Owners Facebook page, a guy said Tech-Autos, the UK FFR distributor, is taking over 818 tooling etc. Didn't say much more than that... Don't know how real it is; if so, it might suck shipping body parts from the UK.
It would be great if somebody like VCP took it over and sold replacement parts
You listening Wayne?

[blomb11]

I have been worried about replacement body panels as well since this news broke. Really hoping FFR will continue to support as required or at a minimum a US vendor. People are going to need replacement panels from mishaps driving and racing....would really suck for FFR to leave us high and dry.

[lance corsi]

This was a question that I asked Dan Golub before buying into the madness, and he assured me that body panels would be available for quite a while. But they also said the car could be built in 250 hrs, and that a paint job was optional. I’m feeling like I’ve been lied to, or at the very least, the kits were over promised as to the quality.

[J R Jones]

This was a question that I asked Dan Golub before buying into the madness, and he assured me that body panels would be available for quite a while. But they also said the car could be built in 250 hrs, and that a paint job was optional. I’m feeling like I’ve been lied to, or at the very least, the kits were over promised as to the quality.

Mendacity aside, the panels are small and somewhat two dimensional. Compared to other bodies they should be easy to repair. Bonding panels together adds complexity. In event of a crash the space frame is not easily repaired either.
jim

[Nigel Allen]

Mendacity aside, the panels are small and somewhat two dimensional. Compared to other bodies they should be easy to repair. Bonding panels together adds complexity. In event of a crash the space frame is not easily repaired either.
jim

I learnt a new word today. I am sure I wasn't alone. :)

[rjp]

Looks like the build school isn't running 818 classes anymore. Probably a good thing, since it really kind of sucked going last April and discovering the kits were no longer available to order. That was news to most of the people in the class. Only one family group had a kit on order already. Several of us already had donors. It was still a good time, though, and I'm glad I did it. Just wish I could have followed it up with, you know, actually building one.

[J R Jones]

I learnt a new word today. I am sure I wasn't alone. :)

It is unfortunate that in these times, in this hemisphere, an abundance of appropriate synonyms are required.