Brake kits ...... confused after reading so many threads

[maclonchas]

Let me start by saying thanks to all who may answer here and hopefully this question will help with others buying this kit.

I am on order for the MKIV complete kit and have read numerous threads on the virtues and needs for Wilwood package from FFR. My car build will be a street only build with a 427 BPE. I know that the engine is overkill, but that is where my research led me after several baths down 347 and LS3.

Now onto brakes. Jeff Kleiner and others have had some spirited discussions on the brakes (F/R) and how many us go overkill in this department. What I am trying to definitely find out, without debating the virtues of the Wilwood product, is what Powerstop complete setup for front and rear would be applicable for the roadster (Caliper, rotors and pads). Does this choice have any effect on the mounting with 17 inch wheels (F/R) and IRS from FFR in the rear.

Thanks for your help.

Bill

[Papa]

Bill,

The answer to your question will depend on how your car is configured. For the fronts, look for Mustang setups that fall into the year ranges for donor cars. The same goes for the rear, but you'll need to know the details of the specific rear end you put in the car. Generally, you'll be looking at 1987-2004 Mustang parts, but if you go with IRS, you'll need to look at 2015+ for the rear brakes.

Remember, going is optional, but stopping not. If the brakes don't stop you, something else will.


https://youtu.be/PAwW1SMo-Z8

Dave

[Fman]

I am running the Mustang GT brakes with Powerstop kit front and rear with 17" wheels w/IRS... car stops fine and no fitment issues. I have 4600 miles on the car with them and have had no issues. The car only weighs 2400 lbs on a heavy day. For driving around town the Mustang GT brakes are more than adequate (they are designed for a 3500 lb car). If your budget has no limits then Wilwood would even be a better upgrade but the GT brakes will do the job. I even have a mild beginner track day with the GT brakes/PS kit and never got any brake fade.

My kit was the supplied FFR kit, I believe they are 11" fronts and 13" rear. The PS kit was additional cost I purchased from Summit.

I also have a Dart 427, great engine in these cars... you won't regret it. Good call on the IRS too, much better ride.

[BEAR-AvHistory]

Can only pass on some info as I do not have IRS. A set of Power Stop Brake Calipers for Ford Mustang SVO 1999-2004 Front Red w/Brackets Pair on sale at Jegs for $175.99. They support 13" (12.99) rotors. Power Stop also have a full range of Pads & Discs. Discs go from plain to grooved & drilled plated. Same with the pads or you can go with Hawk discs/pads or brand of your choice that will fit the Mustang SVO.

Can't say anything about the back on an IRS car. My rear's are companions 13" with the front also from the same vintage SVO Mustang. I run the FFR supplied Wilwood twin master cylinders.

My front suspension is stock FFR supplied. Package will fit inside of 17" wheels

[maclonchas]

Dave,
Thanks
Bill

[maclonchas]

Kevin,

Really appreciate the insight.
Thanks

Bill

[maclonchas]

Ken

Thanks

Bill

[CraigS]

I understand that FFR supplies some rear brakes for the IRS. You can also go w/ the standard brakes from a 2015 or newer Mustang. I did an IRS retrofit on my mkII and got the parts from a salvage yard. I made sure to pick a complete take out rear suspension from the salvage yard that had the brakes. So I got free rear brakes. The 2015+ rear brakes are a huge upgrade from the old Fox rear brakes and those combined w/ Fox mustang fronts (similar and probably a little smaller than the Powerstop kit mentioned) gave me really great brakes w/ Hawk HPS or HP+ pads. The OEM rear calipers fit fine w/ my 17 inch wheels.
https://www.americanmuscle.com/dedibuwh.html

[maclonchas]

Thanks

[Bob Cowan]

Functionally, it's hard to over do the brakes. But, just like the 427, you have to learn to control all that power - both go and stop. Big brakes can be a little hard to control without practice, especially when traction is at a premium.

My current street car has stock BMW brakes, Hawk pads, and a Porsche power booster. For street use, they are excellent. Lots of stopping power and easy to modulate. Notice that there are no holes or slots.

https://i.imgur.com/heSIoBv.jpg

My last street/track car had big Willwoods with a dual MC. I used different pads for street and track. Fantastic braking and easy to modulate. On the track I could out-brake almost anyone out there. On the street they were pretty easy to modulate. You just had to be careful if traction was limited. It was pretty easy to throw the car sideways if you braked too hard below about 40mph. I started out with stock manual Mustang brakes. They were fine on the street. But I burned them up pretty quickly on the track. Notice, again, that there are no holes or dimples.

https://i.imgur.com/XHFZ1a4.jpg

DO NOT mix big Willwoods with a power booster. Gorden told me they feel like an On-Off switch; almost impossible to modulate.

So, all the drivel being spewed ;) here's my recommendation: For a street car only, use stock brakes with good pads and a power booster. More braking power than you really need in a 2,000# car, and affordable.

But if it's even an occasional track car, upgrade to big ol' Willwoods. Not only for the performance, but for the durability of the components.

[BEAR-AvHistory]

My current street car has stock BMW brakes, Hawk pads, and a Porsche power booster. For street use, they are excellent. Lots of stopping power and easy to modulate. Notice that there are no holes or slots.

There is always some comments about holes & slots. My Cobra has holes & slots as I like the look. My pure stock BMW daily driver has holes as it comes from the factory that way as did my Porsche 911

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=175979&d=1669661019

Think for these cars there is no right or wrong as long at they will stop the car in a safe efficient repeatable manor.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=176063&d=1669668975

Test fit of the SVO caliper @ 17"

[Gizmosrcool]

I am similar to Bill (OP). I am thinking upgraded brakes, but not Wilwood. I have rear brakes on my order. If I order PS or similar rotors, calipers, and pads from Summit. I could save some $$ by ordering the PS from Summit and not the rear kit from FF. Makes sense as I would have the orginals on the shelf and not likely ever use. Saving some ca$h and shelf space

What else would I need? Brackets and some nuts/bolts? anyone know?

Tom

[BEAR-AvHistory]

I am similar to Bill (OP). I am thinking upgraded brakes, but not Wilwood. I have rear brakes on my order. If I order PS or similar rotors, calipers, and pads from Summit. I could save some $$ by ordering the PS from Summit and not the rear kit from FF. Makes sense as I would have the orginals on the shelf and not likely ever use. Saving some ca$h and shelf space

What else would I need? Brackets and some nuts/bolts? anyone know?

Tom

Mine came with fresh bolts etc. Don't know about Hawk etc. That said your original bolts will fit. If you have FFR brakes with the Mustang GT fronts & Mustang Cobra rears they will bolt up to the FFR brackets as long as you order correct years parts from whom ever you buy from.

Can't remember bought my kit a Mark IV is 2014. They might have had two different rear brake sets, regular Mustang & the SVO ones. If my memory is correct, saying a lot for an old fart, you need to be sure to order the correct rear calipers etc.

[Gizmosrcool]

I was able to answer my own question. If you download the 13" rear brake instuctions, the guide comes with the part numbers for the bracket components, bolts, washers, and nuts. I was able to find the parts on FF's web site. Everything but the caliper bracket, calipers, rotors, and pads. I am going to go this route. I will delete the complete rear brake kit from my order, order the factory five specific brackets from FF, source genuine Ford caliper brackets from Tasca parts, and a complete Powerstop upgrade kit from Summit. I should save $400 in the long run and not have unused parts on the shelf. The bonus is slot and drilled rotors, fancy red calipers, and performance pads in the rear. I can get a matching Power Stop upgrade for the front. Probably will not get their calipers. Just paint mine red to match.

Beware one item. Some of the after market calipers do not have aprking brake provisions.

Bear. I keep reading the rear is 2015+ mustange V8 GT stuff. They list as 13". sites call it 12.99. seems the same. I search for "factory calipers" and I should be good. Front, I look for a 2000 mustang 11". They used the same thing for a long time back in the day. I think I got it. I will know in April. Fingers crossed.

[Gordon Levy]

The big thing to consider when selecting brakes is how you want to use the car and what wheels you have. The Mustang brake package is OK, it can be made to work pretty good but it will never work great compared to better brake systems. If you make a 400+hp car and plan to use it the base brakes just won't stop you well from and real speed. I have been doing Wilwood for 30 years, I am an OEM dealer and have many kits that carry my own part number. Mine are not the same as FFR and do things differently.
The next thing you need to think about is what wheel you plan on running. If you are running a 17" halibrand replica wheel from pretty much anyone all the big brake kits from Summit, Ford racing, etc... will not clear the wheel with at least 1/2" wheel spacer. The calipers are too big. I have a 6 piston kit that clears that style wheel, we designed it around 10years ago and is the same quality we race on. We have some smaller 4 piston front and rear kits that are pretty cost effective and stop much better than any of the Mustang caliper brakes and clear many 15" wheels but all 16" and 17". We recently started using a 14" kit for the hardcore guy that plan on big 18" or 19" aftermarket wheels and track work. They are huge and use pads twice as big as the dynapro 6 FFR uses and 60% bigger than the Superlite 6 I use and the cost difference is not that much. I have never had anyone regret upgrading brakes.
Most any brakes will work well at low speeds. When you decide to drive exuberantly you will realize just how lacking things can be. It comes down to whats important to you. If you put 450+hp in a 2300 car and don't put the best brakes you can in it................................................ .................................................. .........................

[Rsnake]

I have the 14" brakes from Gordon and they are amazing. The one thing I just did was to change out the master cylinders provided by FFR 3/4 inch to a couple of 5/8" master cylinders.
My pedal with the 3/4 was a rock, car stopped well but pedal had little to no travel. Now with the 5/8 I am positive I can out brake just about any car on the road and the pedal feel is one of the best I have ever driven. I highly recommend Levy racing brakes and have him get you the 5/8" master cylinders as well.
I go more in depth on my youtube channel on the brakes. Cobra Daytona Build

[OB6]

I don't usually see unsprung weight savings mentioned in these brake conversations. I have to believe there is a considerable weight difference (maybe 5-10 lbs each?) between the Wilwood (4 or 6 pot) calipers and the OEM Mustang units, which I assume has a very noticeable impact on ride quality if the FFR is as sensitive to unsprung weight as other lightweight cars.

[Gordon Levy]

There is a noticeable difference but the stopping power is a bigger importance.

[Hoooper]

I don't usually see unsprung weight savings mentioned in these brake conversations. I have to believe there is a considerable weight difference (maybe 5-10 lbs each?) between the Wilwood (4 or 6 pot) calipers and the OEM Mustang units, which I assume has a very noticeable impact on ride quality if the FFR is as sensitive to unsprung weight as other lightweight cars.

Dont forget, you are going from a cast iron OEM caliper and complete cast rotor to an aluminum caliper with aluminum hat on the rotor. The parts are much bigger so while you might still gain weight, its not proportional to the size increase. Of course, if you are going to put a little motor in the car and just cruise downtown you can get away with a much smaller and lighter brake setup than if you plan to track it on 600hp.

For example, I have a 13" Stoptech 4 piston front setup with Wilwood IRS 4 piston rear setup. The stock SN95 10.5" rear rotor weighs 11 lbs and is unvented. My 12.88" rotors are vented and are listed at 12.3 lbs with the hat. The OE cast iron rear SN95 calipers are listed at 7.3 lbs, while my calipers are listed at 4 lbs. So thats a net loss of 2 lbs compared to OE SN95 rear, and am sure the difference is similar or even bigger to the factory S550 rear setup. The front mustang GT rotors are 11" and weigh 14.15 lbs each and are vented. My 13" rotors weigh 16.3lbs. The OE cast iron caliper is listed as 8.5 lbs. My calipers are listed at 7.6 lbs. So thats a net gain of 1.25 lbs compared to the OE SN95 GT fronts.

It looks like a small weight savings actually, but in the real world the extra diameter on the rotors and the calipers being further from the axle centerline is a negative for suspension dynamics which likely outweigh the weight savings. However, even if you go with a little heavier big brake parts than what I used, you are looking at a pretty small difference for a significant gain in braking performance AND heat shedding capability. Gains that if you are not going to push the car might not be worth it, but if you are slowing from 120 to 30 a few times per lap will be very noticeable.

[BEAR-AvHistory]

I was able to answer my own question. If you download the 13" rear brake instuctions, the guide comes with the part numbers for the bracket components, bolts, washers, and nuts. I was able to find the parts on FF's web site. Everything but the caliper bracket, calipers, rotors, and pads. I am going to go this route. I will delete the complete rear brake kit from my order, order the factory five specific brackets from FF, source genuine Ford caliper brackets from Tasca parts, and a complete Powerstop upgrade kit from Summit. I should save $400 in the long run and not have unused parts on the shelf. The bonus is slot and drilled rotors, fancy red calipers, and performance pads in the rear. I can get a matching Power Stop upgrade for the front. Probably will not get their calipers. Just paint mine red to match.

Beware one item. Some of the after market calipers do not have aprking brake provisions.

Bear. I keep reading the rear is 2015+ mustange V8 GT stuff. They list as 13". sites call it 12.99. seems the same. I search for "factory calipers" and I should be good. Front, I look for a 2000 mustang 11". They used the same thing for a long time back in the day. I think I got it. I will know in April. Fingers crossed.

Not sure what the bracket is that you are referring to, if its this it comes with the kit.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=176102&d=1669753390

I would get the 13" (12.99) pictured above for the front also. They are a straight bolt on to the standard FFR front end. You are also buying brakes for a car that weighs about 1/2 ton more than the Cobra.

FWIW the PowerStop are rebuilt FORD as far as I know. Got two checks back from then $78 & $58 for returning my old brakes. Maybe one of the professionals can chime in.

Willwood are great brakes but all depends on your use. Heavy track day use yeah. Most other things you need to think about it. The other ingredient no one talked about is the tires. If the tire can't transfer the stopping force to the pavement its another issue. Think horsepower is not a good argument to support they type of brakes that should be used. For a primarily street driven car I think the tires will be more of a factor than the brakes. The 13" rotors can shed a lot of heat & are a major step up from the FFR supplied 11 inchers that were on a 3600lb Mustang GT.

It does not take much power to drive these cars to their point of being stupid dangerous. More power will just get you there faster again back to the tires as long as you can put the power to the ground. These cars are pretty traction limited with about any engine most will be using.

[maclonchas]

Gordon,

Thanks for the knowledge update on brakes and areas to consider for my build. I will send you a PM to get more details.

Thanks

Bill

[Al_C]

A little late to the party. That said... I have 17" Hallibrands and Wilwood brakes. Everything fits and I am very happy with this setup. My daily driver has Brembos. I originally wanted to put Brembos on the car, but that wasn't an option. So I went for the Wilwoods. I strongly recommend them.

[Gizmosrcool]

There is a lot of great information from evereyone and experience from Gordon selling very nice compoents. My rationale is to start with updated OEM style with Powerstop rotors and pads and see what the experience is. My thing will be a cream puff to shows and events. Standard brakes will work fine for that. Its the autocross that I likely will run out of skill and brakes. Once I tackle that, I may need an upgrade, i'll reach out to the pros like Gordon.

[texrrs]

I am someone wanting to do the 65 coupe build. wondering if going with the Mustang IRS the newer GT500 4 piston caliper and electric caliper should work. From using the knuckle of the GT500. This will blow anything smaller than a 20" wheel out of the water because of rotor size etc. Would like to find solution to mount the 6 piston GT350 front calipers. Has anybody played with this idea? I have a 2011 GT500 and can put the GT350 front brakes on my car with a kit.

[Gordon Levy]

You use those calipers and rotors with adapter brackets. It comes back to what wheels you want to run. We use a lot if the small and big 4 piston rear kits with either a mechanical or electronic park brake,

[Avalanche325]

I always say the same thing on these threads. When have you driven a car that stops too fast? Never. But I have driven a couple, including a MKI FFR, that didn't stop fast enough. 1 extra foot of stopping distance can be the difference between ordering new underwear, or a new body from FFR.

Now really getting to the nitty gritty, your tires are the biggest part of what stops your car. Don't cheap out here.