Thermoform Process

[PhyrraM]

Dave stated in another thread that FFR is headed/leaning towards a thermoform process for the 818 body panels.

Can somebody post links or edumacate the rest of us on what that means? Please.

Maybe a conversation about the process will lead to more refinement of what the 818 can, or can't, look like. Let's make some of our discussion relevant and productive. Not that some of it hasn't been productive, but it's mostly been alot of "Choose my favorite please, and here's why."

I will try to do some research later after work and post what I come up with.

[legacy_y_tu]

Basically a flat plastic sheet is placed over a mold, heated up, and drawn into the mold via a vacuum until the plastic matches the profile of the mold. Some of the limitations are that it's very difficult/impossible to get sharp corners and also the depth of draw can be limited (picture how deep a panel might need to be.). Also, you wind up with non-uniform wall thicknesses because you are essentially stretching the material, not that it matters except that you need to make sure your sheet is thick enough that you don't wind up with too thin a wall by the time you pull to the bottom of the mold. The deeper you draw your plastic too requires a larger draft angle which will probably mean a straight wall or straight lip might be very hard to get. Of course with all the swoopy shapes we're seeing I don't think this will be an issue.

[Idesign]

Think drop in bed liners or hard sided luggage.

[riptide motorsport]

Interesting.

[dclin]

So, basically it's like the same process as making polycarbonate/lexan RC car body?

[Exidous]

Correct

[Psay]

It's also how they make those cheap baths. I can't imagine this is how they are looking at building the whole body or maybe it is. I am very interested to see how this develops.

[NicksPapaw]

Remember guys, Factory Five builds a stand alone frame that is the complete structure. The body is only a skin over this structure. No stress is on the body as it is only a covering. Think of it as a sexy woman in a hot dress. If the dress is removed, you can still get in and ride. :)

[Wayne Presley]

Remember guys, Factory Five builds a stand alone frame that is the complete structure. The body is only a skin over this structure. No stress is on the body as it is only a covering. Think of it as a sexy woman in a hot dress. If the dress is removed, you can still get in and ride. :)

Best analogy I've ever heard for a FFR!

[Dave Smith]

Wayne! I enjoyed your example. I was referring to one of a few processes whereby we can manufacture body panels (including parts like vents, bumper coverings, door hood and trunk liners, diffusers, etc) in a paint-free way that will make the build of the car affordable and easy. There has been a revolution in TOOLING costs and quality for some of these processes. We have already made a mold and production parts for the roadster hood scoop and are working on larger parts like hot rod fenders, etc in preparation for going with this process as part of a larger plan for getting the 818 body made outside of FFR (still in the USA) and delivered in a finish that requires no paint but can still be painted. Jesper is working on several processes and this heat formed plastic is one of them that is currently used for car bumper covers and panels. I like Waynes explanation better.

[RonSchofield]

Dave,

Since the thermoform process is what is going to make the 818 body panels, then can you seriously consider selling just the chassis. I can see that the thermoform process doesn't serve us builders who cannot help but tinker with the body. I can see what modifying the body will be impossible to do with this technique.

Ron

[kach22i]

Just a little FYI on this topic, sideways related. Hovercraft are very weight sensitive, one company (Hoverpod) uses recycled NO.2 plastic (milk jugs) for their curvy body. In this example/application it has a speckled matte finish and is said to have good impact resilience/resistance.

Now that I understand that it is not the main body parts Dave is talking about, I can see how this can all fit together. Good impact resistance on plastic parts like vents, liners is a good thing.

[vozproto]

Yeah , thermoforming is a pretty slick process is you ask me.

Never seen it done on a large scale, but I have done some small parts here and there in the past.
Have been thinking about setting up my own small setup.
You can even do it at home with you vacuum and oven if you wanted to make a few small parts.

[flyboy2160]

"tinkering" with a thermoplastic body wouldn't be any harder than tinkering with a thermoset composite body.

but i'll bet a beer there are enough development hiccups with the 'large' thermoformed body parts that the design gets started with hand layup thermoset parts.

[olpro]

http://adiplastics.com/901.html
This guy has been doing this for quite a while. His processes include pressure forming with vacuum and he gets amazing detail and finish.

[Niburu]

Weren't you guys asking for smaller body panels instead of just a few large ones?

[PhyrraM]

Weren't you guys asking for smaller body panels instead of just a few large ones?

I think most of us just assumed that "No paint, gel coat bodies" just meant smaller panels.

[olpro]

>>>>
Now that I understand that it is not the main body parts Dave is talking about, I can see how this can all fit together. Good impact resistance on plastic parts like vents, liners is a good thing.
I think this is what they are considering at this point, not major exterior panels.

[Niburu]

I think most of us just assumed that "No paint, gel coat bodies" just meant smaller panels.
Really?
I assumed there would be 5 pieces; a main shell, 2 door pieces, front hood, and a rear hatch of some sort
maybe only 3 for the track version (no doors)

[vozproto]

Dunno.

I thought he was talking about the smaller parts they have made with thermoforming in the past to show past performance and experience and the intention to to try and scale up to major body panels.

Once the initial tooling die is made, those parts would be dirt cheap AND super light.

Edit: Niburu- If they are doing major body panels, thermoforming wouldn't allow for a main shell like the Mk4 Roadster. It would have to parsed into strategic pieces to allow for the thermoforming process. UNLESS they did some really sneaky strategic designs...

[Niburu]

I was assuming big pieces for the body were going to be fiber formed.
(I'm actually still assuming that)
But if FFR goes with thermo formed plastic pieces for the body, my thought on this is that it would then be several small body panels.
Which many people said they wanted, but were subsequently complaining about when they found out it might be in thermoformed plastic.

I really don't care what or how they make the body, just as long as it gets done.
Sure I'd love some hand rolled aluminum body panels but I'm trying to realistic about this.

[PhyrraM]

Really?
I assumed there would be 5 pieces; a main shell, 2 door pieces, front hood, and a rear hatch of some sort
maybe only 3 for the track version (no doors)

I took the whole "presentable gel coat" to mean no multi piece molds. That means there can be no curves that trap a part in. All current FFR bodies have part lines that need to be addressed because the molds need to be disassembled for the part to be released. This is what I was assuming FFR needed to avoid, and likely by using smaller panels that don't curve in on themselves.

I, of course, could be wrong. Maybe there is a way to make a multi piece mold that can have a fully finished appearance without any visable part lines.

[Dave Smith]

Combination of all of the above. Therm on some, maybe fiber and hand laid on others. You're right on the part lines as these parts have to be more akin to production car panels and quarter panels. On almost ANY of the designs that are remotely realistic there will be a MINIMUM of at least 12-16 panels and likely more depending on details, spoilers, splitters and vents. No single process is likely to satisfy the req's of all of these parts. For example on a roadster there would/could be:

1. Hood
2. Hood liner
3. RH Qtr panel
4. LH Qtr panel
5. RH Wheel well
6. LH Wheel well
7. Front nose upper
8. Front nose lower
9. Front splitter
10. RH Door outer
11. RH Door liner
12. LH Door outer
13. LH Door liner
14. RH Side lower
15. LH Side lower
16. RH rear qtr
17. LH rear qtr
18. Rear deck lid
19. Rear deck lid liner
20. Rear bumper
21. Rear bumper grill
22. Rear diffuser
23-28. Dash/interior components 1-6
29-32. misc. vents and grilles

I didnt include rear wheel wells and you can imagine a hard top or targa wll add a few as well as complex interference and window areas.

[vozproto]

So the no need to paint but paint-able presentable body panels...

Have you put any thought into whether you anticipate offering a few different base colors?

Or will it be more of a, "Any customer can have a car painted any colour that he wants so long as it is _______."

[DrieStone]

Or will it be more of a, "Any customer can have a car painted any colour that he wants so long as it is _______."


I would have complained about that, but if the 818 ends up half as cool as Rodney's design I don't really care. I've liked almost every color I've seen it in. I have a hard time believing that there aren't at least 3-5 colors that you could choose from, although I would imagine the greatest challenge will be color matching, and especially environmental fade between unlike materials.

[olpro]

You have touched on a major issue with mixing layup parts with thermoformed ones. Color matching can be a bear, even before the sun starts to fade things.
The whole issue of color design is one of those things that most people don't realize goes on in the industry. Studios have a MacBeth light to evaluate materials and paints under different lighting conditions. It gets rather complicated, especially for the multitude of interior parts in the typical production car (far less so for something like this).
Personally, I think this whole subject (of thermoforming) is a distraction from the immediate/critical issues relating to job One.

[Xusia]

On the subject of multiple smaller panels, I see this as an advantage. If a piece get damaged (collision, road hazard, etc.), it would be a lot easier to fix.

[cordycord]

A good explanation of thermo-forming can be found in most car magazines. Those damn "Weathertek" guys and their multiple-page advertisements! A flat sheet is heated and then laid on a drape mold--it can be male or female. The more intricate molds will utilize air suction or air pressure to hold the hot material to the mold surface. A large percentage of the current ATV and side by side market bodywork is made this way. Maier plastics and Sport-tech in Minnesota are good examples of manufacturers.

While the material itself offers some really great advantages--extremely tough and scratch resistant, it has limitations just like fiberglass.

As with the rest of this project, it's refreshing that FFR is taking an the out of box approach, while not chasing fairy dust and moonbeams in order to bring this car to market.

[Dave Smith]

The color combos are tough unless well considered, yet another of the myriad of considerations that go into this project. combining glass lay-ups and other methods presents a terrible challenge of color matching unless fiberglass lay-ups can be in flat black or carbon on parts like inner liners (quite a few) diffusers and splitters, etc. The pre-preg stuff is cool and shows promise. The thermo-forming is but one consideration and it has it's limitations, but colors are many and we would likely offer 4-6 colors to keep it fun but affordable. The moonbeam research shows promise but we have not been able to get a fairy dust method standardized. The truth is that we will likely (are already costing this) hedge our bets and go both ways, one the new methods or combos and two, a traditional mold as we've done for 15 years, albeit, even improved over current but same tech. This would make the paint-free goal a tough one but would not risk the timely launch.

[NicksPapaw]

Don't sleep much anymore, do you Dave? :) This is the sign of a true business warrior. Go hard on a project. Sleep be damned. Finish the project as promised. Catch up on sleep later. I am looking forward to seeing the new technology used. Knowing how the real world works, it is unbelievable that your team has gotten this far this fast. Way to go Factory Five!!

[Oppenheimer]

The color combos are tough unless well considered, yet another of the myriad of considerations that go into this project. The thermo-forming is but one consideration and it has it's limitations, but colors are many and we would likely offer 4-6 colors to keep it fun but affordable.

4-6 colors, YES! That is awesome. This question has come up many times, and for some time. Great to get an answer that should please many. Of course, the choice of which colors to offer will cause endless forum debate.

[Dave Smith]

Jim and Jesper offer...

Silver
Silver Metallic
Titanium Silver
and Arctic Silver

[Oppenheimer]

Jim and Jesper offer...

Silver
Silver Metallic
Titanium Silver
and Arctic Silver

Perfect, those are my favorite colors! Just add 'carved from unobtainium silver'.

[Gearsmith]

Thermoforming in automotive is being adopted more and more as thermoforming machines and tooling become more advanced and technical. Same goes for the materials being used. I've seen interior parts (I know FFR is not talking about interiors - this is just an FYI) that have unbelievable simulated wood grain and carbon fiber finishes. And what really makes them incredible is that the plastic sheet stock is co-extruded with an outside layer of .007" thick (or some similar thickness) clear acrylic. It makes the final thermoformed part look like it's got 10 coats of clear paint on it. Probably the most common base material is ABS plastic. Very tough (they used to mold rotary dial telephones out of the stuff) and impact resistant. So in the case of the 818 body panels, they could use a colored ABS co-extrusion with a clear acrylic top layer.

There are two ways to approach the tooling and forming of the part:
1) make a female mold whereby the softened plastic sheet is drawn into the mold cavity (as was mentioned above). This type of thermofoming produces the most accurate detail on the outside of the part.
2) make a male "plug" whereby the softened plastic sheet is sucked down around the plug - so whatever detail is on the plug, that detail gets reproduced on the inside of the part. Maybe not so good if you need the detail on the outside of the part. This is how R/C car bodies are made. It is typically the lowest cost tooling as well.

Mike

[gwader]

I go to see a great example of thermoforming at the International Motorcycle show. It had loads of complex panels.


http://www.canamoffroad.com/side-by-side/commander/commander-limited/1000/details.aspx

http://na.canamoffroad.com/files/neutral/models/2012/Commander/Ltd/1000/Gallery/01_1152x864_commander_ltd_1000.jpg

http://na.canamoffroad.com/files/neutral/models/2012/Commander/Ltd/1000/Gallery/03_1152x864_commander_ltd_1000.jpg

[Idesign]

By definition “thermoforming” encompasses many kinds of plastic molding including injection molding and expensive matched metal tooling processes which yield very tight radii and can capture fine detail, finished part edges, fastener attachment bosses, structural ribs to keep expansive surfaces from drooping. I don’t think this should be confused with what is being discussed for the FFR which is essentially low cost tooling to produce inexpensive low volume parts. That BRP side by side sells in the 100’s of thousands of units and the cost for tooling and the development to get them just right is amortized over that many units making it economical and draws from years of using the same process in a host of other products. I think if there is a real productive discussion to be had on the topic it would be how to design a good looking car from that process as the chosen material will dictate the final look. Most of the designs to date are over reaching and lofty with very intricate detail, sharp radii, complex duct inserts etc. with no consideration of how it is going to be fabricated or assembled and therefore in my opinion miss the mark on what is feasible. I believe the best design will be one that makes use of the intended material which will need to be a simple elegant form and most likely very minimal.

[RonSchofield]

By definition “thermoforming” encompasses many kinds of plastic molding including injection molding and expensive matched metal tooling processes which yield very tight radii and can capture fine detail, finished part edges, fastener attachment bosses, structural ribs to keep expansive surfaces from drooping. I don’t think this should be confused with what is being discussed for the FFR which is essentially low cost tooling to produce inexpensive low volume parts. That BRP side by side sells in the 100’s of thousands of units and the cost for tooling and the development to get them just right is amortized over that many units making it economical and draws from years of using the same process in a host of other products. I think if there is a real productive discussion to be had on the topic it would be how to design a good looking car from that process as the chosen material will dictate the final look. Most of the designs to date are over reaching and lofty with very intricate detail, sharp radii, complex duct inserts etc. with no consideration of how it is going to be fabricated or assembled and therefore in my opinion miss the mark on what is feasible. I believe the best design will be one that makes use of the intended material which will need to be a simple elegant form and most likely very minimal.

You shouldn't have a simple design just because of a manufacturing process that has limitations. Design it and then choose the best manufacturing technique for the part. Don't let manufacturing design cars.

P.S. I didn't dumb down my dash just because it needed a six part mold to make it.

http://www.mycoupe.ca/modules/wordpress/images/20111205_4.jpg

[RM1SepEx]

It's all complexity vs cost vs mfg method vs timing

very complicated, remember we are talking a design goal of $9999 kit and $15,000 completed "possible" I think it will end up simpler, and that's just fine with me. Too many times we see new products, cars especially, goo too far in the complexity of the design and the curved elements, scoops etc.. where it starts detracting from an elegant design

I'm sure Dave and his team understand and will achieve the right balance.

I had a Fiero for a few years to autocross, people used to comment how well it looked even when it was 15 years old, I LOVED the plastic panels... They used 3-4 types based on application and bolt on, unbolt off made it easy to repair/replace minor damage!!!

[Gearsmith]

An article on lightweight body panels (http://www.plasticstoday.com/articles/plastic-technology-contributes-sub-one-ton-electrical-sports-car-20120229a).

If the link doesn't work, paste this in your browser:

http://www.plasticstoday.com/articles/plastic-technology-contributes-sub-one-ton-electrical-sports-car-20120229a

[kach22i]

Just adding some background to the topic.

Plastic Plymouth Cars - Proposed Plymouth CCV (1998)
http://www.allpar.com/model/plastic.html

According to Ken Mack, who managed the development of a "Composite Concept Vehicle" (CCV), Chrysler was on the verge of a successful low-cost, light-weight, and durable plastic car in 1998, the fateful year of the Daimler takeover. Using old plastic soda bottles, chopped glass, rubber, and a substance to resist ultraviolet radiation, Mack's group formed a four-piece body that goes on top of a lightweight steel frame. The Impet PET resin used in the body was developed by Ticona, and new moulding technologies allowing large warp-free panels to be made from it.
8214

FYI: Hoverpod makes hovercraft bodies out of No. 2 plastic, the raw finish looks rather spotted, faded and matte.

[scartaan]

Just as an FYI, aluminum can also be thermoformed. This has been used for the Panoz roadster (AIV), Proteus C-type Jaguar, and some Morgan parts as examples. Aluminum is heated to 900 degrees and air pressured into forms. An aluminum bodied 818 would be fantastic, but most likely very expensive.

[Oppenheimer]

An aluminum bodied 818 would be fantastic, but most likely very expensive.

Plus require paint (or polishing) = more cost and build time

No-paint plastic panels = fast, convenient & cost effective for kit builder, light weight = genius

[skullandbones]

Combination of all of the above. Therm on some, maybe fiber and hand laid on others. You're right on the part lines as these parts have to be more akin to production car panels and quarter panels. On almost ANY of the designs that are remotely realistic there will be a MINIMUM of at least 12-16 panels and likely more depending on details, spoilers, splitters and vents. No single process is likely to satisfy the req's of all of these parts. For example on a roadster there would/could be:

1. Hood
2. Hood liner
3. RH Qtr panel
4. LH Qtr panel
5. RH Wheel well
6. LH Wheel well
7. Front nose upper
8. Front nose lower
9. Front splitter
10. RH Door outer
11. RH Door liner
12. LH Door outer
13. LH Door liner
14. RH Side lower
15. LH Side lower
16. RH rear qtr
17. LH rear qtr
18. Rear deck lid
19. Rear deck lid liner
20. Rear bumper
21. Rear bumper grill
22. Rear diffuser
23-28. Dash/interior components 1-6
29-32. misc. vents and grilles

I didnt include rear wheel wells and you can imagine a hard top or targa wll add a few as well as complex interference and window areas.

Dave,
Will some of the many panels be permanently joined together into e.g. a rear section, front section or will each be a stand alone peice to be installed onto the chassis? Sorry if that has already been explained but I haven't seen anything about that and really feel the need to know how that will be accomplished. Thanks, WEK.

[jimgood]

It seems to me this approach to the 818 body opens up aftermarket possibilities for FFR body parts; add-ons or replacements. That's pretty cool.

[Smythe]

With all the talk about color match and people wanting different base colors from factory five I thought I would throw this out.

I plan to vinyl wrap the car, vinyl wrap is available in a ton of different colors. And if you do it your self, the cost is ~$200 for the material.

To be cost effective I think that FFR should pick one color. Wrapping is so cost effective that anyone who wants another color can do it themselves, keeping the kit price lower for everyone.

Smythe

[Nuul]

Vinyl flat black is where I am leaning. That color is hit or miss though; on some cars it makes them look menacing and on others it looks horrible.

[Smythe]

I have my color chosen but I'm keeping it under wrap.

[Oppenheimer]

With all the talk about color match and people wanting different base colors from factory five I thought I would throw this out.

I plan to vinyl wrap the car, vinyl wrap is available in a ton of different colors. And if you do it your self, the cost is ~$200 for the material.

To be cost effective I think that FFR should pick one color. Wrapping is so cost effective that anyone who wants another color can do it themselves, keeping the kit price lower for everyone.

Smythe

Yes, vinyl wrap has been discussed. If FFR can cost effectively offer more than one color (which is what they say), then they can offer some of the more exotic colors via wrap (or enterprising vendor can offer).

[10 10 Flyin]

I would pay extra special attention to color match and color fading to due to UV. It is very difficult to get stable colors on plastic components. This has become much more difficult as limitations of heavy metals have been implemented. It is an especially big problem and much more noticeable on bright colors - such as red which historically used cadmium (which can no longer be used) as the main color pigment.

[skullandbones]

I think I agree with you, 10 10 Flyin. The initial color match may be attainable for FFR but I think the color fade issue will be huge. Here in AZ you can count on it. The UV is brutal on plastics.

I can imagine an 818 with a flat black or flat gun metal gray finish as a starting color pallet. Continuing on the body wrap posts, I would like to see fender and side wrap that would create all sorts of accent possibilities. I think you can get some companies to do rather exotic graphics for pretty reasonable prices (comparted to a similar paint job). Anyway, the real advantage would be the adaptability of the platform. You could change the look in a reasonable turnaround time with very little equipment. No sanding and body prep work. Speaking of that: I believe FFR's strongest argument for the plastics is the "no body work" plan. If I could do that with the roadster, I would have a finished car much faster and be able to drive a "painted" project out of the box even if it didn't last very long. That will be a strong selling point for many DIYers who don't want to sub out the body and paint work (plus the additional down time). WEK.

[Twinspool]

Thermoformed flat black in the southwest? The lines of the car may get a little abstract!

[JRL]

Rather than agonize over colors how about this http://www.tiptopsigns.com/Vehicle-Wrap-Vinyl-p-1-c-97.html or something similar

[skullandbones]

Thermoformed flat black in the southwest? The lines of the car may get a little abstract!

What I meant was to leave small areas like the space in front of the side scoop (I guess there will be one still), or on the hood like the Camaro's had for accent. Most of the car would be wrapped in something that would accentuate the lines. That makes me wonder if anyone has had real life experience with this sort of thing on a car. I have done vinyl decals on boats but we never had to negotiate corners or concave surfaces. It was usually very gentle curves at most. Thanks , WEK.

[Silvertop]

I was able to make my first-ever visit to FFR this past Friday morning due a rare business trip which had taken me to the East Coast earlier in the week. The visit to FFR was absolutely worth the extra driving involved, as I was treated to a one-on-one factory tour by FFR's Brian Z. Really a great experience, which only served to deepen my interest in buying an 818.

Unfortunately, the walkthrough did not include any real new revelation regarding the 818 project, which FFR is currently holding pretty close to the vest. Naturally, I tried to wheedle tidbits out of my host, though he was very, very careful about what he said.

When I asked about the use of thermoplastics, he did acknowledge that may be a possibility later. However, I got the distinct impression that the prototype body at least is being prepared using conventional fiberglass processes. In regard to body shape, he did comment that he had not personally been a particularly great fan of any of the four cars that were modeled previously, though he also commented that the body being prepared for launch next fall looks "really good". I got the impression (though he did not expressly say so) that the car body may share styling components of more than one of the finalists. HoF good? Here's hoping.

When we entered the body preparation room, Brian pointed out the raised 2nd-floor platform in one quadrant of the space which is currently serving as the 818 Project Skunkworks. John C., FFR's Master Shaper, was working up there at the time, though he does not show in the photograph below, having moved behind the 4X8 paneling sheets which have been carefully placed along the handrails, obscuring all manner of secrets behind them from view. I would have loved to have gotten a peek behind them.

8261

[flynntuna]

If FFR does choose thermoforming, and we end up with 30 panels how do we store them without scratching them, body buck?

[PhyrraM]

If FFR does choose thermoforming, and we end up with 30 panels how do we store them without scratching them, body buck?

Leave them in the boxes they came in? If it does turn out to be like that, then FFR won't ship them on the frame like it does with the one/two piece bodies.

[tirod]

An example of who can do thermoforming: http://www.thomasnet.com/products/vacuum-formed-thermoformed-plastics-auto-industry-96083324-1.html

Lots of cars and boats are shipped in overwrap. http://www.transportwrap.com/ It can be used on panels, too.

What did the 1984 Fiero use? http://www.calgaryfieros.com/OSGdocs/enduraflex.html That was 28 years ago.

Dave has his hands full vetting experienced suppliers, what material to use, and how to ship it - but it's all very much part of the auto scene, and it's been around a long long time.

He's probably having a blast.

[longislandwrx]

I'm planning on going the wrap route myself. I have a 54" vinyl printer so it's a no brainer. The new 3m carbon wrap with texture may get the nod as well. Can't wait for SEMA so I can start sketching some ideas out.

[first time builder]

Have any of you seen the remake of the Movie "Arthur" with Russell Brand, well the Batmobile used in the filming of the scene with the Bull, was done by making a Vac U Form body from the original car. Also the "Bull" was made of styrofoam. That car used for those scenes is a frame with no driveline. I was at the shop, (George Barris East Coast), who made the car for those scenes and actually held some of the panels used. They were made with VERY thin clear plastic, so they would crush easily. The hood probaly weighted less than 2 pounds. I probably have some pictures some place. For anybody that is interested,
the local Boces school program has teamed up with Barris East Coast and has started giving lessons in how to build show and special effect cars. The instructor is the man that MADE the Original Batmobile, the 96 Batmobile, the Ghostbuster Ambulance and Back packs. He has also done the remake of the Munsters Dragula coffin car. How about the new Mark 5 from Speed racer , yep him to. Very talented man.

Kenny